289 réponses à ce sujet

[himegoto]

Original Stikman wrote...

Striker93175 wrote...

This list is so flawed I can't even begin to argue.

Infidrell who knows how to cloak cancel can pull 200k in a gold game with ease. Asari infiltrator warp/incin reager melts an atlas in 1 clip, praetorian in 2... Drell adept can spawn an entire nuke and flip away with style. A Tsol can make a GPSMG or a locust sing on gold?!

No the asari infiltrator can't do that yet... when they fix her weapon damage bug, then we can talk, but as of right now there is no point using a reegar on her.

I do wonder, how many of those people actually know the Huntress doesn't receive the weapon damage boost. Or don't hype over another Harriar unlock.

[Original Twigman]

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

himegoto wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

You mean to tell me that the Asari Huntress is worse then the regular Male human Infiltrator and the FQI? I fail to see how the character with the best "fire and forget" power can be worse then the cryo blast user or the sabofail user.

Then you also have the Turian Sentinal, the most versitile character in the game, as a B-tier character while the Drellguard is "top-tier." I can't take you seriously at all if your thinking that is how it really works.

Using DOT as a primary is laughable. It sounds to me you have no idea how to spec / play the QFI and HI.

And I'm guessing you're a silver player if you consider the Tsent > the Drellguard.

Condecending much? Never stated that i use the DOT as a primary way of attack, but considering it takes down banshees fairly well on its own on gold it is more useful then you give credit. All i know is the huntress is a much better character then the QFI and HI who have to rely on nades (and in the case of humans cryo blast) to do much to a large group of enemies.

In regards to the Tsent being much better then the drellguard, are you taking into consideration the amount of skill required to do well with characters or only looking at their spawn nuking capabilities? Spawn nuking of course the drellguard wins, but in overall suvivability and team synergy, the Tsent wins hand down. The ability to have 50% damage reduction, work well with tech and biotics, and also use almost any gun effectively makes him a much better character and is easier to use with much less risks.

At MAX potential the drell vangaurd will run circles (literally) around a turian sentinel. This isn't a debate.

Full biotic team or not, drell vangaurd wins, hands down, no question.

Yes maybe at MAX potential, but a vast majority of cases, the turian sentinal is a much better option then the drell vanguard. I'd rather take a PUG with a turian sentinal then a PUG with a drell vanguard that probably doesn't know what they are doing and are downed every wave.

OP stated directly that this is at MAX potential and you just acknowledged it....

SO I am not even sure what you are arguing.

[Atheosis]

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

himegoto wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

You mean to tell me that the Asari Huntress is worse then the regular Male human Infiltrator and the FQI? I fail to see how the character with the best "fire and forget" power can be worse then the cryo blast user or the sabofail user.

Then you also have the Turian Sentinal, the most versitile character in the game, as a B-tier character while the Drellguard is "top-tier." I can't take you seriously at all if your thinking that is how it really works.

Using DOT as a primary is laughable. It sounds to me you have no idea how to spec / play the QFI and HI.

And I'm guessing you're a silver player if you consider the Tsent > the Drellguard.

Condecending much? Never stated that i use the DOT as a primary way of attack, but considering it takes down banshees fairly well on its own on gold it is more useful then you give credit. All i know is the huntress is a much better character then the QFI and HI who have to rely on nades (and in the case of humans cryo blast) to do much to a large group of enemies.

In regards to the Tsent being much better then the drellguard, are you taking into consideration the amount of skill required to do well with characters or only looking at their spawn nuking capabilities? Spawn nuking of course the drellguard wins, but in overall suvivability and team synergy, the Tsent wins hand down. The ability to have 50% damage reduction, work well with tech and biotics, and also use almost any gun effectively makes him a much better character and is easier to use with much less risks.

At MAX potential the drell vangaurd will run circles (literally) around a turian sentinel. This isn't a debate.

Full biotic team or not, drell vangaurd wins, hands down, no question.

Yes maybe at MAX potential, but a vast majority of cases, the turian sentinal is a much better option then the drell vanguard. I'd rather take a PUG with a turian sentinal then a PUG with a drell vanguard that probably doesn't know what they are doing and are downed every wave.

Don't concede the "MAX potential" part of his point.  It's a laughable statement.  At "MAX potential" a Turian Sentinel will score as many if not more points than a Drellguard and won't go down once in a match.  

Modifié par Atheosis, 28 décembre 2012 - 09:39 .

[Original Twigman]

himegoto wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Striker93175 wrote...

This list is so flawed I can't even begin to argue.

Infidrell who knows how to cloak cancel can pull 200k in a gold game with ease. Asari infiltrator warp/incin reager melts an atlas in 1 clip, praetorian in 2... Drell adept can spawn an entire nuke and flip away with style. A Tsol can make a GPSMG or a locust sing on gold?!

No the asari infiltrator can't do that yet... when they fix her weapon damage bug, then we can talk, but as of right now there is no point using a reegar on her.

I do wonder, how many of those people actually know the Huntress doesn't receive the weapon damage boost. Or don't hype over another Harriar unlock.

If they fix it she will be unbelievable impressive. But that isn't the case right now.

[BjornDaDwarf]

himegoto wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...

himegoto wrote...
I rest my case. And to everyone who still don't understand what a tier list is.

Maybe you missed this.

I believe I was replying at BjornDaDwarf?

Yes, but MP-Ryan was pointing out that he has already made the same argument that I have.  Namely, that this isn't a "Tier List", as you keep lording that term and it's definition over everyone's head.

This is a subjective list of classes that you appear to do well with, do poorly with or favor/disfavor for some reason.  Virtually every time someone has used logic and facts to argue a position (such as DPS, diversity of powers, survivability, etc), your reply has been either condescending, an insistence that the commenter doesn't understand "tier lists" or both.  

I was actually interested in engaging in a conversation about the relative strengths and weaknesses of classes, but your list and attitude don't appear to support that as an option.  

[puldalpha]

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

himegoto wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

You mean to tell me that the Asari Huntress is worse then the regular Male human Infiltrator and the FQI? I fail to see how the character with the best "fire and forget" power can be worse then the cryo blast user or the sabofail user.

Then you also have the Turian Sentinal, the most versitile character in the game, as a B-tier character while the Drellguard is "top-tier." I can't take you seriously at all if your thinking that is how it really works.

Using DOT as a primary is laughable. It sounds to me you have no idea how to spec / play the QFI and HI.

And I'm guessing you're a silver player if you consider the Tsent > the Drellguard.

Condecending much? Never stated that i use the DOT as a primary way of attack, but considering it takes down banshees fairly well on its own on gold it is more useful then you give credit. All i know is the huntress is a much better character then the QFI and HI who have to rely on nades (and in the case of humans cryo blast) to do much to a large group of enemies.

In regards to the Tsent being much better then the drellguard, are you taking into consideration the amount of skill required to do well with characters or only looking at their spawn nuking capabilities? Spawn nuking of course the drellguard wins, but in overall suvivability and team synergy, the Tsent wins hand down. The ability to have 50% damage reduction, work well with tech and biotics, and also use almost any gun effectively makes him a much better character and is easier to use with much less risks.

At MAX potential the drell vangaurd will run circles (literally) around a turian sentinel. This isn't a debate.

Full biotic team or not, drell vangaurd wins, hands down, no question.

Yes maybe at MAX potential, but a vast majority of cases, the turian sentinal is a much better option then the drell vanguard. I'd rather take a PUG with a turian sentinal then a PUG with a drell vanguard that probably doesn't know what they are doing and are downed every wave.

OP stated directly that this is at MAX potential and you just acknowledged it....

SO I am not even sure what you are arguing.

The invalidity of his tier list. I fail to see how he can say his tier list is for max potential when he has so many things wrong on the list. Yet again, the drell vanguard is best at nuking spawns, but he is overall inferior to the turian sentinal on so many different levels.

[Original Twigman]

Atheosis wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

himegoto wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

You mean to tell me that the Asari Huntress is worse then the regular Male human Infiltrator and the FQI? I fail to see how the character with the best "fire and forget" power can be worse then the cryo blast user or the sabofail user.

Then you also have the Turian Sentinal, the most versitile character in the game, as a B-tier character while the Drellguard is "top-tier." I can't take you seriously at all if your thinking that is how it really works.

Using DOT as a primary is laughable. It sounds to me you have no idea how to spec / play the QFI and HI.

And I'm guessing you're a silver player if you consider the Tsent > the Drellguard.

Condecending much? Never stated that i use the DOT as a primary way of attack, but considering it takes down banshees fairly well on its own on gold it is more useful then you give credit. All i know is the huntress is a much better character then the QFI and HI who have to rely on nades (and in the case of humans cryo blast) to do much to a large group of enemies.

In regards to the Tsent being much better then the drellguard, are you taking into consideration the amount of skill required to do well with characters or only looking at their spawn nuking capabilities? Spawn nuking of course the drellguard wins, but in overall suvivability and team synergy, the Tsent wins hand down. The ability to have 50% damage reduction, work well with tech and biotics, and also use almost any gun effectively makes him a much better character and is easier to use with much less risks.

At MAX potential the drell vangaurd will run circles (literally) around a turian sentinel. This isn't a debate.

Full biotic team or not, drell vangaurd wins, hands down, no question.

Yes maybe at MAX potential, but a vast majority of cases, the turian sentinal is a much better option then the drell vanguard. I'd rather take a PUG with a turian sentinal then a PUG with a drell vanguard that probably doesn't know what they are doing and are downed every wave.

Don't concede the "MAX potential" part of his point.  It's a laughable statement.  At "MAX potential" a Turian Sentinel will score as many if not more points than a Drellguard and won't go down once in a match.  

So.... you concede "won't go down" as part of this point instead of "max potential"  this is ridiculous.

Not even to mention the turian sentinel moves like a slow turd down a clogged toilet.

The turian sentinel is a jack-of-all trades character. When bioware first came out with "baldur's gate" they called this class a "Bard." He too was a jack-of-all trades... These classes are never the best but are always good.

If anyone is on Xbox, i welcome them to play a match where we play a drellgaurd vs a Turian sentinel, if you feel the sentinel is that much better.

[himegoto]

heroicmass wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

The problem with any tier list is that it's kinda subjective.

Any tier list is subjective. I don't completely agree with Daigo Umehara's SF4 tier listings and he's only one of the best players worldwide for the game.

The problem here though is most arguing in fact does not have a clue what a tier list is / What they are arguing against.
I still see some saying "well yeah, only if you can play the kit to its MAX potential"

Sighs.

[Striker93175]

Original Stikman wrote...

Striker93175 wrote...

This list is so flawed I can't even begin to argue.

Infidrell who knows how to cloak cancel can pull 200k in a gold game with ease. Asari infiltrator warp/incin reager melts an atlas in 1 clip, praetorian in 2... Drell adept can spawn an entire nuke and flip away with style. A Tsol can make a GPSMG or a locust sing on gold?!

No the asari infiltrator can't do that yet... when they fix her weapon damage bug, then we can talk, but as of right now there is no point using a reegar on her.

I do it all the time.  Yes it can/does.  It doesn't die outright, it dies from the DoT ticks though.  Best to fire, then slide slide away - cloak and run...  Got to use shotty gear/amps tho too.

Modifié par Striker93175, 28 décembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Original Twigman]

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

himegoto wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

You mean to tell me that the Asari Huntress is worse then the regular Male human Infiltrator and the FQI? I fail to see how the character with the best "fire and forget" power can be worse then the cryo blast user or the sabofail user.

Then you also have the Turian Sentinal, the most versitile character in the game, as a B-tier character while the Drellguard is "top-tier." I can't take you seriously at all if your thinking that is how it really works.

Using DOT as a primary is laughable. It sounds to me you have no idea how to spec / play the QFI and HI.

And I'm guessing you're a silver player if you consider the Tsent > the Drellguard.

Condecending much? Never stated that i use the DOT as a primary way of attack, but considering it takes down banshees fairly well on its own on gold it is more useful then you give credit. All i know is the huntress is a much better character then the QFI and HI who have to rely on nades (and in the case of humans cryo blast) to do much to a large group of enemies.

In regards to the Tsent being much better then the drellguard, are you taking into consideration the amount of skill required to do well with characters or only looking at their spawn nuking capabilities? Spawn nuking of course the drellguard wins, but in overall suvivability and team synergy, the Tsent wins hand down. The ability to have 50% damage reduction, work well with tech and biotics, and also use almost any gun effectively makes him a much better character and is easier to use with much less risks.

At MAX potential the drell vangaurd will run circles (literally) around a turian sentinel. This isn't a debate.

Full biotic team or not, drell vangaurd wins, hands down, no question.

Yes maybe at MAX potential, but a vast majority of cases, the turian sentinal is a much better option then the drell vanguard. I'd rather take a PUG with a turian sentinal then a PUG with a drell vanguard that probably doesn't know what they are doing and are downed every wave.

OP stated directly that this is at MAX potential and you just acknowledged it....

SO I am not even sure what you are arguing.

The invalidity of his tier list. I fail to see how he can say his tier list is for max potential when he has so many things wrong on the list. Yet again, the drell vanguard is best at nuking spawns, but he is overall inferior to the turian sentinal on so many different levels.

Invalidate his tier list is fine. But to say that the turian sentinel is better is just silly.

Let me list some things that are indesputable
pros
- better weapon damage output (by a lot)
- more powerful (cooldown-less powers)
- better movement
- can eliminate enemies quicker for team

cons
- less health
- doesn't have "support powers" for a team

Perks of drell vangaurd
- can recharge shields
- gets DR from biotic charge

Perks for Turian sentinel
- DR


All of this exclude the Warp/incendiary bug, which is not what the intention of the character is to be.

[himegoto]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

himegoto wrote...

MP-Ryan wrote...

himegoto wrote...
I rest my case. And to everyone who still don't understand what a tier list is.

Maybe you missed this.

I believe I was replying at BjornDaDwarf?

Yes, but MP-Ryan was pointing out that he has already made the same argument that I have.  Namely, that this isn't a "Tier List", as you keep lording that term and it's definition over everyone's head.

This is a subjective list of classes that you appear to do well with, do poorly with or favor/disfavor for some reason.  Virtually every time someone has used logic and facts to argue a position (such as DPS, diversity of powers, survivability, etc), your reply has been either condescending, an insistence that the commenter doesn't understand "tier lists" or both.  

I was actually interested in engaging in a conversation about the relative strengths and weaknesses of classes, but your list and attitude don't appear to support that as an option.  

himegoto wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

himegoto wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

Despite
your attempts to sell this as being objective (with your introduction),
the actual list comes off looking like a bunch of thoroughly random
personal choices (barring a few obvious ones).

Care to elaborate?

But no. This is a subjective list I thought I made that part clear.
What's objective is the role of a tier list because it's a unfamilar thing to folks who never played fighting VS games before.

Your
opening several paragraphs sell your list as being objective, not about
being a personal list at all.  In which case, it comes off as
laughable.  You also try to sell it as being immune to criticism
(insisting that people understand tier lists before criticizing), but
then break your own criteria in your explanations.  As an example, you perform well with two Vorcha classes, therefor they are S tier.  So it's okay for you to ignore the criteria you've defined for a Tier list, but it's not okay for anyone else to do it?  

I gave examples on the Vorchas, and also them in relation to other kits. Surely you cared to read that part?

Here's from my quote.

Vorcha soldier and sentinel ?
- Really tough to place. Wanted to
place them as A tier because some one hit kill attacks (not sync kills)
does pose problems due to low shield gate and always on health. Attacks
like the endless staggers from Geths or bs one hit kill beams from
Praetorians.
On second thought "always on health" means being able to
play more aggressive and with health regain means more uptime and DPS
dished out. One of my own beastly kits on gold+ matches, concluded my
decision as S tier.

They are S tier only because I performed well. Really?
I rest my case. And to everyone who still don't understand what a tier list is.

I made a reply to you. But it seems easier to quote another person's post to your advantage?

[Original Twigman]

Striker93175 wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Striker93175 wrote...

This list is so flawed I can't even begin to argue.

Infidrell who knows how to cloak cancel can pull 200k in a gold game with ease. Asari infiltrator warp/incin reager melts an atlas in 1 clip, praetorian in 2... Drell adept can spawn an entire nuke and flip away with style. A Tsol can make a GPSMG or a locust sing on gold?!

No the asari infiltrator can't do that yet... when they fix her weapon damage bug, then we can talk, but as of right now there is no point using a reegar on her.

I do it all the time.  Yes it can/does.  It doesn't die outright, it dies from the DoT ticks though.  Best to fire, then slide slide away - cloak and run...  Got to use shotty gear/amps tho too.

Pure wishful thinking. She doesn't get a weapon damage bonus, so you
aren't killing an atlas in one clip, you can hardly do that with a
valkyrie, what make you think you can do it with a infiltrator without a
weapon bonus.

[DarkAbsolution]

Turian Sentinel, Batarian Vanguard, and Asari Huntress in B Tier.  You serious?

The problem with these Tier lists is that they are all purely subjective in the opinion of the poster.  Very few people agree wih other's subjective viewpoints, so I wonder why even bother posting the list?  If the list is how you view those characters, then good for you.  The list has no value to anyone else, because for the most part, it's just plain wrong with respect to other people's playstyles and experiences.

There are a small handful of characters which are outliers on the bell curve that the majority of people could likely agree upon as being placed where they are, but aside from the outliers, trying to organise everything in the middle is borderline futile.

[stefbomb]

The amount of nonsense the OP spews about the Huntress is incredible.
Spec her for full Biotic Damage bonuses, full +Biotic Damage gear and add on either Incendiary Ammo (for Warp/Incendiary bug goodness) or Warp Ammo and things melt. She's easily better than many of the "A" or "S" classes you listed.

Modifié par stefbomb, 28 décembre 2012 - 09:54 .

[puldalpha]

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

himegoto wrote...

puldalpha wrote...

You mean to tell me that the Asari Huntress is worse then the regular Male human Infiltrator and the FQI? I fail to see how the character with the best "fire and forget" power can be worse then the cryo blast user or the sabofail user.

Then you also have the Turian Sentinal, the most versitile character in the game, as a B-tier character while the Drellguard is "top-tier." I can't take you seriously at all if your thinking that is how it really works.

Using DOT as a primary is laughable. It sounds to me you have no idea how to spec / play the QFI and HI.

And I'm guessing you're a silver player if you consider the Tsent > the Drellguard.

Condecending much? Never stated that i use the DOT as a primary way of attack, but considering it takes down banshees fairly well on its own on gold it is more useful then you give credit. All i know is the huntress is a much better character then the QFI and HI who have to rely on nades (and in the case of humans cryo blast) to do much to a large group of enemies.

In regards to the Tsent being much better then the drellguard, are you taking into consideration the amount of skill required to do well with characters or only looking at their spawn nuking capabilities? Spawn nuking of course the drellguard wins, but in overall suvivability and team synergy, the Tsent wins hand down. The ability to have 50% damage reduction, work well with tech and biotics, and also use almost any gun effectively makes him a much better character and is easier to use with much less risks.

At MAX potential the drell vangaurd will run circles (literally) around a turian sentinel. This isn't a debate.

Full biotic team or not, drell vangaurd wins, hands down, no question.

Yes maybe at MAX potential, but a vast majority of cases, the turian sentinal is a much better option then the drell vanguard. I'd rather take a PUG with a turian sentinal then a PUG with a drell vanguard that probably doesn't know what they are doing and are downed every wave.

OP stated directly that this is at MAX potential and you just acknowledged it....

SO I am not even sure what you are arguing.

The invalidity of his tier list. I fail to see how he can say his tier list is for max potential when he has so many things wrong on the list. Yet again, the drell vanguard is best at nuking spawns, but he is overall inferior to the turian sentinal on so many different levels.

Invalidate his tier list is fine. But to say that the turian sentinel is better is just silly.

Let me list some things that are indesputable
pros
- better weapon damage output (by a lot)
- more powerful (cooldown-less powers)
- better movement
- can eliminate enemies quicker for team

cons
- less health
- doesn't have "support powers" for a team

Perks of drell vangaurd
- can recharge shields
- gets DR from biotic charge

Perks for Turian sentinel
- DR


All of this exclude the Warp/incendiary bug, which is not what the intention of the character is to be.

Even if the DV is better then the T. Sentinal in the right hands, doesn't change the fact that there are many errors in the tier list, mostly headlined by the fact that the huntress is a B tier character when she is clearly better then several of the A tier characters he has listed which is my orignal cause of complaint.

[Cyonan]

himegoto wrote...
Any tier list is subjective. I don't completely agree with Daigo Umehara's SF4 tier listings and he's only one of the best players worldwide for the game.

The problem here though is most arguing in fact does not have a clue what a tier list is / What they are arguing against.
I still see some saying "well yeah, only if you can play the kit to its MAX potential"

Sighs.

You're the one that said the kits were being judged based on their full potential. Judging something on their full potential generally requires that the one doing the judging can actually play it at their full potential.

Then when people point out that you aren't using them to their full potential, you either reply in a condescending way, claim that they don't understand what a tier list is, or just ignore them.

[MP-Ryan]

himegoto wrote...
Also why the lot of you to me are ignorant to the idea of tier listings = It's always about the full potential of a character.

 By what definition are you measuring full potential?  The only measurement I'm seeing - and it appears the majority of other respondents - is your preferences.  Even your Vanguard rankings there aren't based on anything objective.  If you take a player equally-skilled in the DV, AV, PV, and HV on gold, the drell will have the highest score and the most deaths, the basic Human will have the longest survival time, the Asari may slightly outscore the human but will also die more frequently - or score less and die less, and the Phoenix will underperform compared to all three of the others.  But that doesn't mean their actual effectiveness ranks that way, because maximum possible effectiveness should be measured as a sum of four components:

1.  Synergy with the greatest possible variety of other characters.
2.  Damage per second.
3.  Individual survivability.
4.  Utility in objective waves.

Taking the example of those four vanguards, the character with the greatest team synergy is the novaguard (BC and Nova).  The character with the least is the Phoenix (Lash and Smash are unreliable as compared to the possibilities on the HV, DV, AV).  The Asari's synergy ranks above the drell's because Stasis applies to a wider variety of enemies than Pull, but both have less synergy than he novaguard because they deplete the map grenade pool.

DPS, the Drell wins.  Asari is next.  Novaguard will outperform the Phoenix, provided a player of equal skill in each.

Survivability, the novaguard wins.  Asari next.  Phoenix next.  Drell has the least - again, as you said, provided a player of equal skill in all four.

Objective way utility, Asari ranks first (stasis + nades), drell (nades), Phoenix (Smash/lash), Novaguard (nova-cancelling is only actually helpful in the pizza-carrying objective).

So, by those criteria, we have the following (lowest score = highest rank = max effectiveness):
DV - 3+1+4+2 = 10
AV - 2+2+2+1 = 7
HV - 1+3+1+4 = 9
PV - 4+4+3+3 = 14

By a logical approach to maximum potential effectiveness, the order of those vanguards is Asari, Human, Drell, Phoenix.  Again, given a player with exactly equal skill with all four.

While this method introduces a level of subjectivity, the approach is methodical and rigorous and produces a more meaningful ranking than the list of opinion you've produced.

Again, you gave us a list with no internally-consistent criteria for determining the rankings on it, basing it instead on your opinion.  As a result, it loses all meaning except as a way to see how you view the various characters in the game.

[Original Twigman]

puldalpha wrote...


Even if the DV is better then the T. Sentinal in the right hands, doesn't change the fact that there are many errors in the tier list, mostly headlined by the fact that the huntress is a B tier character when she is clearly better then several of the A tier characters he has listed which is my orignal cause of complaint.

I don't care if you are attempting to argue this, that is fine.

I am just eliminating the "Tsent is better than Drellgaurd" from your argument for the above, because it is simply not true, especially given the premise to which OP setup.

if the bottom 90% of the playerbase can play Tsent better than DV, but the top 10% can kill things with the DV better and faster than they can with the TSent, then you want to focus on the top 10%, not the bottom. The top 10% (or whatever percentage), is where the actual determination of character usefulness is going to be, not in the general population.

[DHKany]

*doesnt see quarian marksman at least A tier.*

Nope.

[himegoto]

DarkAbsolution wrote...

Turian Sentinel, Batarian Vanguard, and Asari Huntress in B Tier.  You serious?

The problem with these Tier lists is that they are all purely subjective in the opinion of the poster.  Very few people agree wih other's subjective viewpoints, so I wonder why even bother posting the list?  If the list is how you view those characters, then good for you.  The list has no value to anyone else, because for the most part, it's just plain wrong with respect to other people's playstyles and experiences.

There are a small handful of characters which are outliers on the bell curve that the majority of people could likely agree upon as being placed where they are, but aside from the outliers, trying to organise everything in the middle is borderline futile.

BV is hard to place, A-B. But Tsent and Huntress as of now are definitely solid Bs.

It's funny you implied the tier list is not going to work. Have you wondered why?
Fighting games have equivalent amount of characters and it's often trickier to rank due to the amount of mechanics and, well, imagine there's also a PVP side to ME3's MP.

It seems to me just a refusal to accept an new and alien idea yet.

[puldalpha]

Original Stikman wrote...

puldalpha wrote...


Even if the DV is better then the T. Sentinal in the right hands, doesn't change the fact that there are many errors in the tier list, mostly headlined by the fact that the huntress is a B tier character when she is clearly better then several of the A tier characters he has listed which is my orignal cause of complaint.

I don't care if you are attempting to argue this, that is fine.

I am just eliminating the "Tsent is better than Drellgaurd" from your argument for the above, because it is simply not true, especially given the premise to which OP setup.

if the bottom 90% of the playerbase can play Tsent better than DV, but the top 10% can kill things with the DV better and faster than they can with the TSent, then you want to focus on the top 10%, not the bottom. The top 10% (or whatever percentage), is where the actual determination of character usefulness is going to be, not in the general population.

Very well, have a cookie for fighting with me through this

[DarkAbsolution]

With respect to MP-Ryan's post, to me, my preferred way to play the Phoenix Vanguard is as a charge area heavy melee build. THAT is where his strength is for clearing spawns. Charge DR + Heavy Melee DR, with the ability to charge again immediately after taking a shot or two at everything that's staggered around him, means that (to me) he is a wrecking ball that is every bit as strong as the Human Vanguard's Nova, except the Phoenix doesn't lose his barriers with his AoE Heavy Melee.

Modifié par DarkAbsolution, 28 décembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[puldalpha]

MP-Ryan wrote...

himegoto wrote...
Also why the lot of you to me are ignorant to the idea of tier listings = It's always about the full potential of a character.

 By what definition are you measuring full potential?  The only measurement I'm seeing - and it appears the majority of other respondents - is your preferences.  Even your Vanguard rankings there aren't based on anything objective.  If you take a player equally-skilled in the DV, AV, PV, and HV on gold, the drell will have the highest score and the most deaths, the basic Human will have the longest survival time, the Asari may slightly outscore the human but will also die more frequently - or score less and die less, and the Phoenix will underperform compared to all three of the others.  But that doesn't mean their actual effectiveness ranks that way, because maximum possible effectiveness should be measured as a sum of four components:

1.  Synergy with the greatest possible variety of other characters.
2.  Damage per second.
3.  Individual survivability.
4.  Utility in objective waves.

Taking the example of those four vanguards, the character with the greatest team synergy is the novaguard (BC and Nova).  The character with the least is the Phoenix (Lash and Smash are unreliable as compared to the possibilities on the HV, DV, AV).  The Asari's synergy ranks above the drell's because Stasis applies to a wider variety of enemies than Pull, but both have less synergy than he novaguard because they deplete the map grenade pool.

DPS, the Drell wins.  Asari is next.  Novaguard will outperform the Phoenix, provided a player of equal skill in each.

Survivability, the novaguard wins.  Asari next.  Phoenix next.  Drell has the least - again, as you said, provided a player of equal skill in all four.

Objective way utility, Asari ranks first (stasis + nades), drell (nades), Phoenix (Smash/lash), Novaguard (nova-cancelling is only actually helpful in the pizza-carrying objective).

So, by those criteria, we have the following (lowest score = highest rank = max effectiveness):
DV - 3+1+4+2 = 10
AV - 2+2+2+1 = 7
HV - 1+3+1+4 = 9
PV - 4+4+3+3 = 14

By a logical approach to maximum potential effectiveness, the order of those vanguards is Asari, Human, Drell, Phoenix.  Again, given a player with exactly equal skill with all four.

While this method introduces a level of subjectivity, the approach is methodical and rigorous and produces a more meaningful ranking than the list of opinion you've produced.

Again, you gave us a list with no internally-consistent criteria for determining the rankings on it, basing it instead on your opinion.  As a result, it loses all meaning except as a way to see how you view the various characters in the game.

To be honest, I would like to see your tier list based on the formula you have stated here

[BreakJohn]

himegoto wrote...

BreakJohn wrote...

himegoto wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Turian Soldier, the kit that can make any gun good, is bad?

Quarian Marksman too.

Actually I would question most of your B tier list.

At least you agree with the other tiers then?

BreakJohn wrote...

T.sol with a hurricane anywhere under
"A" completely discredits this list. Honestly the only ones you got
right are the "god tier" but thats because by now everyone knows who the
dominating characters are. and this is coming from a fighting game
veteran here so i know my **** when it comes to tiers.

On Tsol,
I assessed him with a Hurricane build and Typhoon build.
Good gun damage output and bad survivibility. In terms of overall effectiveness, he's below everyone I placed on my A tier
Which is why he's a B.

And this is coming from an fighting game vet since 1998, who happens to be Asian. I know my fair share on tier lists.

bad survivibility? sounds like a bad speccing to me, 60666 is the way to go(no concussive shot) and he gets plenty of shields. also the hurricane fires so fast he doesnt need to keep his face out there as long as with the typhoon(pretty obvious hurricane>typhoon on this guy). also i'd like to know why you placed the trooper so low? he completely mows down mobs and has pretty darn good dps versus 2+ bosses on platinum.

Does me saying bad survivability sounds like I'm using a 66660 build to you?

I use a Hurricane build myself. A 26665 / 25666
A Typhoon build on him isn't so bad either and I'd take a 60666 on that. Not with the Hurricane.
And quite honestly from the way you gave that reply I still don't think you understand how a tier list works.

the very fact im questioning your tier list demonstrates i know exactly how a tier list works. trust me i understand just because I do good with a certain kit doesn't make it top tier or vice versa if i do bad with a good kit doesn't make it low tier. these things have been around forever in the FG scene you should know since you've been there almost as long as i have, but they are also becomming common place in any type of game nowadays. plus this makes me think this is one of your first tier list if this is the way you take to a little criticism. obviously any tier list is subjective and people are GOING to question the placements but your answer shouldn't be "you guys don't undertand how tier list work!". granted some people in this thread don't i'll give you that much. also sorry if it came across that i completely disagree with this list, i don't. only a few of the kits in a few of the brackets(its only natural)

[DarkAbsolution]

himegoto wrote...

DarkAbsolution wrote...

Turian Sentinel, Batarian Vanguard, and Asari Huntress in B Tier.  You serious?

The problem with these Tier lists is that they are all purely subjective in the opinion of the poster.  Very few people agree wih other's subjective viewpoints, so I wonder why even bother posting the list?  If the list is how you view those characters, then good for you.  The list has no value to anyone else, because for the most part, it's just plain wrong with respect to other people's playstyles and experiences.

There are a small handful of characters which are outliers on the bell curve that the majority of people could likely agree upon as being placed where they are, but aside from the outliers, trying to organise everything in the middle is borderline futile.

BV is hard to place, A-B. But Tsent and Huntress as of now are definitely solid Bs.

Disagree strongly.  Not arguing with you about it more.