25 réponses à ce sujet

[SpectralTime]

I'll be talking about the archive of dev posts HERE a lot: (http://social.biowar...ex/3308675&lf=8)

Hoping to ask some settings questions, and, since I didn't see a general board for it...

Most of them boil down to ONE question, broadly defined: to what degree do you think that qunari culture is rooted in differences between kossith and human/elfish/dwarfish biology?  For clarity's sake, I'll be using "kossith" to refer to the race of horned giants and "qunari" to refer to the adherents of the totalitarian ideology that characterizes most of them.  I'll also be trying to be as non-judgemental as possible, for civility's sake.

For example, love.  I am among those who would like to see a kossith love interest in the next game, and not necessarily in the Sten-ish way, awesome though that might be.  But, we know from the above archive of various developer comments that in qunari culture, sex and love are not intertwined, and what we would call "romantic love" is looked on as something odd that puts you up for re-education.  

Now, is this *biologically* odd, and kossith just don't intertwine sex and love the way other intelligent races all seem to, or is it *culturally* odd, since out-of-order breeding results in breaks in their eugenics programs?

For that matter, is this deep urge for an orderly, carefully controlled life simply the result of their qunari society, something which could have been put together by any other people regardless of race?  After all, there are rebels within qunari society (the tal-vashoth, most prominently) who have chosen to break away.

Or, is there something uniquely kossith about the qunari society they created?  For example, are they like Vulcans, from Star Trek, to cross franchises, creating this sort of highly-ordered society because they themselves have such intense emotions that they find they *need* this kind of highly controlled culture to function?  

Let's have a thought experiment.  Let's say that a qunari ship wrecks on the coast of some magically non-racist part of Thedas, and everyone dies but an infant who was, for some reason, on board, who is then adopted by the locals.  Totally unrealistic, but, again, thought experiment.  If this kossith were to grow up as a non-qunari, what do you think he or she would be like?

Modifié par SpectralTime, 28 décembre 2012 - 10:23 .

[Madmoe77]

He'd be Conan of course! Or Xena if female. Unless raised with the farm animals for the horns that would develop making me to think he could very well become the Dread Pirate Roberts; responding uncontrollably "as you wish" from some unknown memory of the Qun to everyone who made demands.

Just from a hypothetical, imaginative perspective though : )

[upsettingshorts]

Biological determinism is fake science.

[SpectralTime]

...Okay then.  I'll agree with that inasmuch as it applies to human beings in the real, non-fantasy world.  Because THAT is fake science.  I'm asking is it ALSO fake science to apply it to the kossith that are qunari, and that's a yes.  Fair enough.

And, hey! Who said anything about him or her being a *warrior* qunari! For all you know, he might be Conan the Mildly Annoyed Farmworker!  Or possibly the Dread Shopkeeper Roberta.  

Modifié par SpectralTime, 28 décembre 2012 - 10:28 .

[gneisenau556]

Qunari society always seemed to me to be the Thedas version of a dystopian society where everyone is controlled, I wouldn't be surprised if the top Qunari leadership didn't personally believe in the Qun.

[Madmoe77]

SpectralTime wrote...

...Okay then.  I'll agree with that inasmuch as it applies to human beings in the real, non-fantasy world.  Because THAT is fake science.  I'm asking is it ALSO fake science to apply it to the kossith that are qunari, and that's a yes.  Fair enough.

And, hey! Who said anything about him or her being a *warrior* qunari! For all you know, he might be Conan the Mildly Annoyed Farmworker!  Or possibly the Dread Shopkeeper Roberta.  

"Assssss yoouuuu wiissshhh!" As I am sent rolling down the forum hill.  

[SpectralTime]

I'm sure that that's at least a little true, if only because the qunari aren't robots, but the dev comments I linked to up top imply that there isn't really a "top qunari leadership" as such, just qunari whose task is administration.

In fact, I think there's even a comment where they say the qunari don't really have classes, though they're still a dystopia.

[Madmoe77]

SpectralTime wrote...

I'm sure that that's at least a little true, if only because the qunari aren't robots, but the dev comments I linked to up top imply that there isn't really a "top qunari leadership" as such, just qunari whose task is administration.

In fact, I think there's even a comment where they say the qunari don't really have classes, though they're still a dystopia.

I find this to be totally contradictory. If you have rank in file you have class structure. The very strength of the Qun is it's absolution and adherence to rank and file. Should a person be determined less than their assigned role they suffer penalties. This can be considered class warfare; by maintaining such strict adherence through forceful order in keeping certain classes bound beyond their will to that role, the mages for instance. And they have a very organized command structure as we saw in DA2. 

In a socilological sense, the Qun do everything they can to avoid natural order. They so far have shown that they implement an organization to all things regardless of their natural state, again my example being mages. Your description of a dystopia fits partly because from the outside it doesn't work. But from the totaliarian control of the Qun, those born into it would know nothing else. And sense they are supposed to suppress their own nature then they would never know a vocalized difference in opinion other than the random outside follower like Talis.  

As for the lost Qunari you mentioned in the OT, they would likely be retreived and integrated or killed given the polution they would bring to the Qun. I would assume you could have the Qunari/Conan as I mentioned or the shopkeeper you wouldn't dare to steal from in yours-but society would be hard pressed to accept him locally given the time period of Dragon Age in Thedas circa our available events. 

PS I lol'ed thinking about Hellboy while writing that last part. 

Modifié par Madmoe77, 28 décembre 2012 - 11:32 .

[Navasha]

I am not sure we know the answer to that, at least as far as what we know from the games alone. I never read any comics or books. Even the Tal-Vashoth still grew up in the Qunari society and then rebelled. They aren't good examples of what the the Kossith might be if they were born outside the Qunari society and never exposed to it.

If it isn't some odd biological construction of the Kossith brain that leads to that need for extreme ordered thinking, you would then only likely see it in some Kossith raised by non-Qunari parents outside of Qunari society.

If biology is somewhat to "blame" for the Qunari way of thinking you might just end up with someone like Worf from Star Trek. A klingon raised by humans who attempts to connect with Klingons but struggles between his biological aggression and the values he learned from his parents.

[TCBC_Freak]

#1 Calling them Kossith would be like calling everyone from Italy, Germany, Southern England, France, North Africa, South West Asia (and other regions) Romans just because those people were once called Romans. The Roman Empire is gone as the writers of the game have indicated that the Kossith are gone. They are Qunari, that is their race and their religion, just as you can't really separate Jewish (the race) from Jewish (the religion). And when you say this: "After all, there are rebels within qunari society (the tal-vashoth, most prominently) who have chosen to break away." You are incorrect in the way you make it seem that there are more rebels in Qunari culture than the Tal-vashoth, any Qunari who leave the Qun are Tal-vashoth. The proper way to say what you meant is this, "There are rebels within Qunari culture, they are called Tal-vashoth." This is bit nit-picky but hey, I'm a nit-picker.

#2 There is no real answer to the intent of your question. Nature over Nurture (which isn't junk science by the way; it is openly debated and both sides have facts to point to which is why the topic still comes up.) is something that is hard to pin down and in a fictional setting it is impossible because the minds of fictional characters are open to the whims of writers. If the writers want the Qunari to be, by nature, a certain way they will be. In many ways your hypothetical cannot be answered because you must understand the Qunari mind. It's like asking if a alligator raised by humans would behave like an alligator or a human. Or to take it further, the nature of other races as well, for example, in the game Mass Effect, would a Salarian raised by Krogan be more like Krogan? Or flip that even? You question hinges on knowing if a different race, real differences not just cosmetic as human "races" are different but biologically different can really grasp and understand one another. Going outside Bioware medium look at Warhammer 40K, the Eldar (Tyranids and Orks even more so) are so very different from humans that it is impossible to really understand one another, thus even if a human family tried to raise an Eldar child that child would never behave like a human. Their very physical nature is so different, their immortality and connection to the psychic energies of the warp makes it impossible that they would fully comprehend the mind set of such short lived people as humans, even if they grasped it for a time it would slip away. The differences between the Qunari and other races may be just as vast, or perhaps they are simple grey skinned humans with horns and we can almost understand their minds like we do our own. The point is that unless the writers give us an indication one way or the other it is futile to spend too much time asking it.

If any other this comes across as brash I'm sorry, that is not my intent.

[Kidd]

Madmoe77 wrote...

I find this to be totally contradictory. If you have rank in file you have class structure. The very strength of the Qun is it's absolution and adherence to rank and file.

Not necessarily, I think. We think in terms such as class because that's how our society works and has worked. The nobility have been above the traders and the traders have been above the farmers. The nobility have more money, the traders less so and the farmers least of all. This has also traditionally been true for political power as well.

In a culture where everybody is assigned a role this isn't necessary however. The warrior is as important as the farmer, who is as important as the craftsman. Everybody do their duty to the Qun and there may not be any economical or political differences (aside from how certain Qunari are born into having political powers - but this power is still not considered any higher than the farmer handiwork's cause everybody's needed in the end). Even a military leader who orders his men is only performing his one service to the Qun, just like his soldiers are serving another.

If there would be any kind of "class system" it may be along the lines of how well you live up to your role. Two farmers may consistently create differing amounts of grain and thus one is a better farmer than the other - more apt at serving the Qun. I'm not sure the Qun differentiates based on that however nor how they would even present their favour. There is no such thing as a raise without money, for instance.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:39 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Biological determinism is fake science.

Myeh, there are some things that biology determines or influences very strongly, but let's not forget that the presence of a certain gene doesn't even necessarily mean that gene will express in a completely predictable way. 

But there's not one single non-physical trait that I've yet heard of having a traceable genetic switch.  Even mental *diseases* like schizophrenia aren't predictable in this way. At best, there are some genetic or epigenetic correlations, and they usually ain't strong correlations, at that.

[PsychoBlonde]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...
If there would be any kind of "class system" it may be along the lines of how well you live up to your role. Two farmers may consistently create differing amounts of grain and thus one is a better farmer than the other - more apt at serving the Qun. I'm not sure the Qun differentiates based on that however nor how they would even present their favour. There is no such thing as a raise without money, for instance.

There's vertical promotion under the Qun, so if you're a better farmer, you'll be made an overseer and set to guiding the other farmers.  If you're a REALLY good farmer, maybe you'll be made a district overseer and set to making policy over what gets planted where and how much and who gets promoted to overseer.  Stuff like that.  There's just no mobility between general roles.  And nobody is assigned to be an overseer or Arishok right off the bat.  They might show enough potential early on that they'll be groomed for/steered toward that role (also this means there are plenty of available backups if the higher-ranked people crap out), but they don't take green newbies and put them in high responsibility/authority roles.

Having higher rank/wider responsibilities gives you higher status, which might mean things like you're allowed greater lattitude in making your own decisions about what you and others around you do (Sten as the Arishok in the comics has BROAD authority regarding what to do with Alistair et al even though he probably *ought* to be ordering them converted).  Also your rank/status might determine things like whether or not you get assigned to mate or how much communication you're allowed with people in other roles. Sten mentions in Origins that normal communications between soldiers and farmers were rank/status based in some way--perhaps only the two highest-ranking people present would communicate in a normal situation.  The Arishok in DA2 might back this up slightly, because even when Fenris talked to him, he always spoke directly back to HAWKE.

One question I'm curious about is who decides these promotions and what methodology do they use?  Do all the people of the next higher rank in a given area get together, make nominations, and vote?  Do all the direct reports to that person get together, make nominations, and vote?  Are they directly appointed by their immediate superior? How do the Arishok, Arigena, and Ariqun get chosen?  Do the other two pick the third if there's a vacancy?  Maybe there's a contest between the people of the next lower rank?  This last one might be the case because Sten seemed to think it was appropriate for him to challenge you for leadership.  Is the current officeholder open to challenge at any time?  What happens to the loser?  Tallis apparently was demoted at one point (and demoted into a different role)--how does that work?  Is that only for viddathari or can born Qunari also be demoted in this way?  Could a soldier be turned into a laborer and sent to work in the mines or similar?  Using saar-qamek on someone seems like a method of permanent (and irreversable) demotion, but we don't know yet whether this works on the Kossith race or not.

Lots of questions.

[PsychoBlonde]

TCBC_Freak wrote...
You are incorrect in the way you make it seem that there are more rebels in Qunari culture than the Tal-vashoth, any Qunari who leave the Qun are Tal-vashoth. The proper way to say what you meant is this, "There are rebels within Qunari culture, they are called Tal-vashoth." This is bit nit-picky but hey, I'm a nit-picker.

The problem is that there are Qunari who are also humans, elves, and dwarves, so Qunari doesn't EXCLUSIVELY refer to the Kossith race, so you're faced with a problem when you're trying to talk specifically about the Qunari who are Kossith.

Granted, the Qunari call the non-Kossith Qun-followers "viddathari" . . . IF they weren't born in the Qun but converted, which considering that the Qunari have been inhabiting Seheron and Par Vollen for about 3 centuries (15 human generations!) is STILL not an accurate-enough term because there are probably a sizeable number of non-Kossith Qunari who were BORN into the Qun.  That, and almost noone knows that this is what "viddathari" means. Not to mention the possibility of various *crossbreeds* between the races possibly orchestrated by the Tamassran for various purposes--if I were running a eugenics program, one of my big long-term priorities would be to see what you could get from new types of mutt.  There'd probably be a lot of value in breeding with dwarves for magic resistance and traits useful to miners, for instance.  The "Kossith" race may not even be "a" race but cross(es) of who-knows-how-many other races, which would explain why there are some pretty darn radical differences in features--although this wouldn't explain why they all seem to have white hair at this point--that argues for genetic similarity, not diversity.  Or maybe there was some singular trait they found so desirable that they inadvertantly polluted their ENTIRE gene pool with this white-hair-dominant gene--it's possible ALL the giants have a single common ancestor not all that far back, possibly even Koslun himself considering that their philosophy was apparently founded by him alone and his several FEMALE disciples who may or may not have been his wives as we would think about it.

The devs may **** about it, but the fact remains that the only term we've got that refers EXCLUSIVELY and PRECISELY to the giant race is "Kossith" and not "Qunari".  If people want to talk about the philosophy (which many do) they can and do use the term "Qunari" quite happily.  But some of them want to talk about the giant race, and Kossith is the only solid term available for that.  They did this to themselves.  This mixing-up of terminology actually was a problem on the forums prior to the discovery of the term "Kossith" in the flavor text in the DA2 Prima Strategy Guide, to the point where I created a thread proposing that we use "Qunari" to mean the religion and "qunari" to mean the race.  (It didn't catch on.)  Now we have a real term that people can understand and apply, and the devs want to complain that it wasn't the use they envisioned for that term?  WHATEVER.  They made this terminology bed, they can lie in it.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 29 décembre 2012 - 03:30 .

[Madmoe77]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Madmoe77 wrote...

I find this to be totally contradictory. If you have rank in file you have class structure. The very strength of the Qun is it's absolution and adherence to rank and file.

Not necessarily, I think. We think in terms such as class because that's how our society works and has worked. The nobility have been above the traders and the traders have been above the farmers. The nobility have more money, the traders less so and the farmers least of all. This has also traditionally been true for political power as well.

In a culture where everybody is assigned a role this isn't necessary however. The warrior is as important as the farmer, who is as important as the craftsman. Everybody do their duty to the Qun and there may not be any economical or political differences (aside from how certain Qunari are born into having political powers - but this power is still not considered any higher than the farmer handiwork's cause everybody's needed in the end). Even a military leader who orders his men is only performing his one service to the Qun, just like his soldiers are serving another.

If there would be any kind of "class system" it may be along the lines of how well you live up to your role. Two farmers may consistently create differing amounts of grain and thus one is a better farmer than the other - more apt at serving the Qun. I'm not sure the Qun differentiates based on that however nor how they would even present their favour. There is no such thing as a raise without money, for instance.

Many times we are told by the Arishok of 'weak' members of the Qunari who fail their role,(I am not as versed in the terminology as say *Blonde is here for the exact name) and that these were rejected, rebeled or were reassaigned, or worse killed. That is the sociological equivalent of class. Even if they have roles to which they succeed at, they cannot move freely into new roles or have upward mobility of their own choosing. It would be very difficult to call this structure of classification by position and unchosen skill or assignment without saying it was anthing but a class issue. this would especially be true if a rare Qunari found themselves wanting that change or vying for change. 

Where the Qun runs into a grey area is total adherence for the goal of perfecting the Qun. This has to have 100% devotion, and as we know that is not the case. Some leave the Qun because their 'class' or 'role' did not suit them. I would say this is common even within the Kossith or any other race within the Qun. Maybe a dirty and dismissed event but it is proof that class is definitely there for the defining. 

[PsychoBlonde]

Madmoe77 wrote...

Where the Qun runs into a grey area is total adherence for the goal of perfecting the Qun. This has to have 100% devotion, and as we know that is not the case. Some leave the Qun because their 'class' or 'role' did not suit them. I would say this is common even within the Kossith or any other race within the Qun. Maybe a dirty and dismissed event but it is proof that class is definitely there for the defining. 

Sten and the Arishok actually kind of seemed to be in denial about the entire issue.  If they leave, they're "not Qunari" and thus they don't count.  The numbers may actually be rather high.

[Maria Caliban]

Qunari are like Vulcans. Their 'natural' state is far more violent, chaotic, and individualistic than humans, so their culture emphasizes self-control and collectivism.

[Medhia Nox]

@Maria Caliban: Yeah - as if the modern human couldn't learn a thing or two about practicing self-control. It's very unpopular - at least in the states.

[Auroras]

SpectralTime wrote...
Let's have a thought experiment.  Let's say that a qunari ship wrecks on the coast of some magically non-racist part of Thedas, and everyone dies but an infant who was, for some reason, on board, who is then adopted by the locals.  Totally unrealistic, but, again, thought experiment.  If this kossith were to grow up as a non-qunari, what do you think he or she would be like?

Well, if the Kossith are anything like humans, and if the child were raised as a fully equal member of the community (or maybe even if he or she were not), then the child would likely adopt the beliefs and practices of his or her host species, whether that be human, elf, or dwarf. 

[Madmoe77]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Maria Caliban: Yeah - as if the modern human couldn't learn a thing or two about practicing self-control. It's very unpopular - at least in the states.

Are you from the States? Or just generalizing? Human? 

I am getting the feeling it is no longer a topic on Qunari and Kossith; but somehow turned to nationalism and aliens among us silly humans on the boards.  

[snackrat]

gneisenau556 wrote...

Qunari society always seemed to me to be the Thedas version of a dystopian society where everyone is controlled, I wouldn't be surprised if the top Qunari leadership didn't personally believe in the Qun.

While I understand where you're coming from, the Qun is lead by the Triumverate - the Arishok (war leader), the Ariqun (religious leader), and the Arigena (craftsman leader), which share authority but specialise in their portions (though there is naturally some overlap - though Tallis seems to take a military role, she is technically of the qun, not the shok).

The Arishok in authority during Hawke's story adhered to the philosphy of the qun very strongly. I imagine the authority over each other would make it hard to be otherwise.

[Gazardiel]

Very interesting question. I found this thread where some posters confirm my impression that there are aspects of Confucianism in the Qun.

I think that recognizing that a large portion of the world population came from those roots rather than from Abrahamic traditions would give some useful perspective to this discussion (and game designers are great at utilizing real world and historical examples to ground their creative work).  My initial impression was that there was a similarity to Islam because of the idea of submission, so maybe there are aspects of both influencing the Qun.

Based on this, I would argue that the idea of having social roles that are defined by external means (and not by the individual) and that submission to and acceptance of those roles is virtuous is not necessarily contradictory to human society, but contradictory to Western social history.  Now, it could be impossible in Thedas because of the way the human society there developed, but as we see by non-Kossith converts, becoming Qunari is not necessarily related to biology (could non-bipedal beings be Qunari? Hmm).

That said, there is a mention in the thread you linked that breeding is controlled in Qunari-Kossith society - I'm not sure to what extent that happens, but I could imagine some small difference in genetics that could make such a program more visibly "effective" over the short term.

For example, dogs exist in many many breeds that are wildly different from each other - some theorize that this genetically based quirk made dogs more attractive to early humans to domesticate than other animals.  Also, from breeding studies of Russian Silver Foxes, it was observed that friendliness and docility were genetically tied to youthful appearance (neotony) and certain colorations (not necessarily the same gene, probably genes close together on a chromosome so often correlated). 

If Kossith have a similar type of genetic trait, then it could have made it easier to justify selective breeding socially than it would have been with humans or elves - that would be a fairly small difference of "nature" that worked directly with "nurture" interventions; neither would have had meaning without the other though.

Another factor that often is overlooked in scifi is mammalian reproduction - internal gestation by females and feeding of milk through mammary glands - those tend to be an assumed norm (often to make the females look more human and therefore more attractive to het-male viewers, but why the heck would a reptilian race have bewbs?) and I assume the Kossith are no different.  

There could be a lot of variation in how that reproduction stresses the body (Farscape's Sebaceans had a lot more control over their own pregnancies, which was a great "what if?") and what kind of social structures are needed to cope with those stresses and uncertainties.  In that, our lone stranded Kossith may not actually be a good experiment to fully understand the nature/nurture question, since a lot of behavior focuses around the crisis of reproduction

But it could just as well have been chance that other social structures among ancient Kossith failed and this was the only (main?) one that survived in an equilibrium. 

Modifié par Gazardiel, 29 décembre 2012 - 09:38 .

[Kidd]

Some great posts in here.

Madmoe77 wrote...

Many times we are told by the Arishok of 'weak' members of the Qunari who fail their role,(I am not as versed in the terminology as say *Blonde is here for the exact name) and that these were rejected, rebeled or were reassaigned, or worse killed. That is the sociological equivalent of class.

Yeah, good point. =)

[Hillbillyhat]

When Qunari leave the Qun the Arishok in a sense is correct by saying no Qunari leaves the Qun. They believe that the Qunari loses nothing when weakness abandons the Qun and when that happens they lose nothing. The Qunari are weird like that.

Also without more info about the Qunari system I can't even say that operate on a class system, or at least not something we traditionally see in the modern world. A class system implies that there generally is a lower and inferior class. In the Qun they seem to believe that everyone must find their role and excel in that. A farmer wouldn't want to be the Arishok due to it being not what the farmer want to do. Hell trying to be the Arishok would in a way be a inferior position to being a farmer (at least to the farmer anyway).

Then again this is speculation and I hope DA3 gives us more info on the Qunari. They are the most unique and interesting thing in the entire DA universe.

[Mystch3vi0us]

There are a lot of great things I've seen posted (and some not so great.) that have got me thinking more about the Qunari people as a whole. 

Firstly, someone brought up how the Qunari had deep ties to confusionism which is great, however, in order for their society to work as it is supposed to I think there has to be very deep ties to theoretical communism.  Clearly communism doens't work in practice in the real world the same way it was supposed to, but were not dealing with the real world.  There might be merit to the idea that the brain chemistry of the "Kossith" lends itself to a better group mentality.  So why communism you ask?  Simple.  It's an issue of value.  There may be no latteral promotions because there is no more value to one job over another.  If the priest is held with no higher regard than the warrior who is no more important than the farmer then any ambition for advancement (which there is no stated reason for there not to be any.) would be vertical within the job/role provided.

Another contributing factor to this idea is the issue of money or material compensation.  It has been established that there are (I might be off, but I'm pretty sure I read this.) additional perks provided to those who excell in their roll within the qun.  Such advantages may include permission to procreate ectera and so on, however, if there is no material compensation for services rendered then that helps to keep the value of any position neutral.  If a governer lives eats and relaxes in the exact same manner as a serf the only thing to really define themselves is their roll within the qun. 

Nextly, when they talk about imprisonment, reasignment, or possible death for failing at your roll within the Qun, I think people are asigning a value on one position over another because of a "punitive action."  Clearly imprisionment and death are punitive.  Imprisionment can be seen as motivational incentive.  (love it or hate it, it's a real thing in the world and it does show results.)  Death is death though if your roll was to keep the sacred tome of sacred doomy death and doom safe and you failed.  Well yeah death.  NOW reasignment is the one I was really meaning to talk about.  If we assume that no roll is of more value than the next then it would follow suit that reasignment could quite possibly be the system trying to put the circle in the circular hole.  Not everyone is cut out to be a warrior.  And the traits one expresses in their youth are not neccisarily the traits that will define them as an adult.  Maybe a man was overly aggressive in his youth only to become placated later in life.  Perhaps his maturity and experience make him far better suited to be a priest than a warrior.  Wouldn't it make sense to put him in a roll where he can excell than keep him in a roll where he is doomed to fail and cause problems for everyone?  Which I ghather might look bad for the administrator who placed him in the roll to begin with, but that's neither here nor there.