435 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

And I understand you did Dean, yet you would have happily accepted a more telegraphed and clear cut situation, while a number of other people would have been sufficiently pacified by it.. Know I certainly would be playing the game right now as opposed to have traded it in without buying any DLCS.
But according to SOME individuals there are scores of silent players out there that.would have been horribly displeased if Shepard was shown certainly living and the sheer volume and stars of all polls is to be ignored altogether

[Dr_Extrem]

crimzontearz wrote...

And I understand you did Dean, yet you would have happily accepted a more telegraphed and clear cut situation, while a number of other people would have been sufficiently pacified by it.. Know I certainly would be playing the game right now as opposed to have traded it in without buying any DLCS.
But according to SOME individuals there are scores of silent players out there that.would have been horribly displeased if Shepard was shown certainly living and the sheer volume and stars of all polls is to be ignored altogether

imo, most of the people out there, are playing something different by now.

[RiptideX1090]

Look, no one really has any numbers on anything. Except for Bioware, but even those numbers are skewed. They might know just how many picked Synthesis, for example, but it's impossible for them to know how many picked it because they liked it or because they didn't understand it and thought it was the best decision.

There's an old saying. There's lies, there's damn lies, and then there's statistics. You can't trust polls, period.

That said, I think it's fair to say most people, on the whole, don't watch movies or read books to be left miserable at the end. There are movies that can end on a sour or sad note, and it works for them because it keeps with that movie's themes. The Dark Knight, Dues Ex, ect. But Mass Effect has NEVER been about that. You've always won at the end, walking away like a badass.

So it's not unreasonable to assume that the people who have stuck it out for two games where Shepard walked off death and suicide like a champ and emerged from the rubble like a mother****ing boss might have enjoyed that feeling of victory. So when the best outcome of the last installment (going by EMS), giving us an end once and for all is an entire sapient race getting blown up and Shepard not bursting out of the rubble with a smile on his face with heroic music playing and his companions hugging one another in relief (which is exactly what happened in the first game's ending), some people are left going "WTF happened?"

[TheRealJayDee]

iakus wrote...

Dude, get out of my head.

Happy new year, evil (?) brain twin! It's good to know at least you're reading my mini rants.

[crimzontearz]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

And I understand you did Dean, yet you would have happily accepted a more telegraphed and clear cut situation, while a number of other people would have been sufficiently pacified by it.. Know I certainly would be playing the game right now as opposed to have traded it in without buying any DLCS.
But according to SOME individuals there are scores of silent players out there that.would have been horribly displeased if Shepard was shown certainly living and the sheer volume and stars of all polls is to be ignored altogether

imo, most of the people out there, are playing something different by now.

I have but my mind still lingers. Remember I was one of those people who complete ME1 & 2 about 20 times each with the same character...I never tired of playing them even if I played other games now and again.


 
All I am left with right now is coming here

[Mastone]

Simple answer :
No

More ellaborate answer:
I think that they were strapping themselves in for the ****storm once the game was launched.
I also feel they gave me a big middlefinger at the end(ing) by breaking down all logic/ rules and promises made and broken.
I have played ME1, took that character in ME2 and did the same in ME3, because apparently all the big decisions I made during these games would matter in the end...which it didn't.

Bioware is not the Bioware that made Baldursgate anymore, but are becoming "corporate" which means franchises gallore, no creativity anymore, all gamedesign desicions will go through a test audience before they are implemented taking off the edge of the game and the experience.

I for one am looking at a polish studio called CD Projekt ( the witcher franchise) and am hoping that they will be the much needed breath of fresh air, becauseit is sorely needed in the industry

[Dean_the_Young]

crimzontearz wrote...

And I understand you did Dean, yet you would have happily accepted a more telegraphed and clear cut situation, while a number of other people would have been sufficiently pacified by it.. Know I certainly would be playing the game right now as opposed to have traded it in without buying any DLCS.
But according to SOME individuals there are scores of silent players out there that.would have been horribly displeased if Shepard was shown certainly living and the sheer volume and stars of all polls is to be ignored altogether

You misunderstand my position, you misunderstand the position of others, and you misunderstand how internet polls work.

[Iakus]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'm skeptical of scenarios like these that pupport that faceless casualties are still real costs... especially considering that a 'fair fight' with the Reapers could and easily would see the Reapers escalate their attempts to war effort to the point it destroys the galaxy, and would continue the genocide for some time on raw Reaper numbers alone since they already occupy half of it.

So here's my counter-thought: let that Destroy+ be an alternative (not replacement)... but if you choose it, you lose the homeworlds in the course of the war that follows. All of them: there is no single, decisive battle. The Reapers fight hard, they try and pull the big guns out, and between rampant orbital bombardment and WMD's, the planets (and for many, their populations) are destroyed. Not only will the galactic devastation continue even with a fair fight, but everyone in the galaxy will know that Shepard chose not to end it immediately... and that, easily, could spur the synthetic-organic conflict into a new reality, as all the races that suffered greatly from the continued war know that they were sacrificed for an untrusted minority.[/quote]

Seems over the top to me.  in some ways, it's actually worse than what we were given.

In my way the Reapers are stopped decicively in a protracted battle.  Yes there are "faceless casualties" but (there could be other characters that die.  The geth are faceless casualties too (literally, I might add) but at least in my way those that die do so in battle against the Reapers, not due to an arbitrary genocide tacked on to make for a "bittersweer" ending.   

[quote]
think I remember this from previous discussions. As I recall, the most important factor would be the actual mandates... and the drawback for mandates rather than Direct Control would be the Reapers subverting it like they did their original mandate.[/quote]

Would be interesting to show that any order could potentially be perverted given enough time.  

[quote]
That's certainly a good plus, but I'm not sure there's enough of a drawback unless you make something more concrete.[/quote]  Could be done with the ending speech.  Of course, there's the risk that even more comparisons could be made with DXHR...

[quote]
If Shepard survives the Crucible by whatever means (someone else dying for him, whatever), let it be clear and obvious. No breath scene at all, and Shepard's escape telegraphed before the Crucible's effect.
[/quote]

[/quote] Hm. I disagree, but that's because I've had fun in the past with books/movies which ended on a narrative hint that something was going to occur, rather than outright showing it. I enjoy that nugget of purposeful ambiguity, and can easy see it as a design choice rather than a gaffe.
[/quote]

If it p*sses this many people off, it's a gaffe.  It might have been a design choice intended for another outcome, but it failed spectacularly.

[Massa FX]

If there's no more Shepard games, they should show a rescue -> surviving Shepard instead of hinting at it with a breathe scene. That's just how I see it. If Shepard's story continues, I can see them leaving us hanging because we'll find out what happens in the next title... but they've said no more Shepard.

Seems backwards... to me.

As for the face import bug: It doesn't bother me much because I always customize my FemShepard's hair. I mean... the same hairstyle for all 3 games? <Some women might not mind that, but most women need to tweak that hair and makeup.>

[Grubas]

Thats a very interesting paraphrasing here. Thx Massa FX

Massa FX wrote...

Thanks for the response Ninja Stan. You are a good guy in my book!

<snip>
Who knows? Maybe one person dictated that this was the way it had to be or else.
<snip>

Possible, but I can't see anyone willing to take that on their shoulders unless they have no sense of cya -

<snip>
Maybe everyone actually liked the ending as-is.
<snip>

Doubtful. I can't see how that's possible given the division in the playerbase. There had to be dissenters among the ranks of testers and developers.

<snip>
Maybe it was a majority decision.
<snip>

Doubtful. At least, I can't believe that could happen.

<snip>
Maybe everyone actually hated it but there wasn't time.
<snip>

This is a high probablility. Happens all the time. Slip the ship date ... publisher is pissed. Distributor is unsympathetic. Fans are restless and vocal... Blizzard and Valve seem to have immunity to this thrilling aspect of crunch time pressure.

<snip>
Maybe it was a last minute change.
<snip>

This is what I've heard. Last minute changes of this magnitude rarely end well. I've never known any last minute or hour design change that worked out well. Sure, it might happen... but I've never seen it happen that way.

<snip>
Maybe it was planned to be this way since development began.
<snip>

*sob* I hope not!

<snip>
... in the absence of real answers, disappointed gamers will assign their own reasons. Because they
only have a limited view into the process.
<snip>

Hence all the theories, arguments, speculations, mods, flame wars, conjecture, ill-will, sarcasm, and drama found here on BSN.

[obibenjedi]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Look, no one really has any numbers on anything. Except for Bioware, but even those numbers are skewed. They might know just how many picked Synthesis, for example, but it's impossible for them to know how many picked it because they liked it or because they didn't understand it and thought it was the best decision.

Just rememberd That I kinda wandered into synthesis ending because wasn't sure what was going on was just trying to get closer look at the machine. Would not have been my first choice!

[SpamBot2000]

obibenjedi wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

Look, no one really has any numbers on anything. Except for Bioware, but even those numbers are skewed. They might know just how many picked Synthesis, for example, but it's impossible for them to know how many picked it because they liked it or because they didn't understand it and thought it was the best decision.

Just rememberd That I kinda wandered into synthesis ending because wasn't sure what was going on was just trying to get closer look at the machine. Would not have been my first choice!

Yeah, me too. Maybe it was the conditioning to go for whatever the game tries to sell as the 'best' ending that took over in that moment of WTF?!

So I guess BWs numbers of 'ending preferences' include plenty of people who just got shocked into that crap. 

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I think Bioware would've (and would be) more open with fans in discussing their ending choices if it made more sense to them. But what's done is done... all that's left to do now (for fans that still hope for a Bioware comeback) is deter future games from making the same mistakes.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:28 .

[Auld Wulf]

@OP

That's empathy you're feeling.

Personally, I think the ending is fine. And my preference even veered towards the open-to-interpretation original, rather than the extended cut, as that had much more potential to be interesting. I don't know what it is with people wanting things cut, dry, and painfully obvious, these days.

It's like everyone wanted the game to end with exploding reapers, Shepard presented with a segway, and Wrex baking Shep a cake (kudos to Penny Arcade for also ripping on that silliness). Sometimes I actually feel like I'm the 1% - the 1% of those alive with any imagination; I like writing, I like art, I liked Spore (and creating things in Spore), I liked the ending of Mass Effect.

And this is my empathy. I feel genuinely bad for Bioware. They tried to do something new, interesting, and not clear and cut. And like Bioware, I actually felt quite alienated by the response. So I have a lot of empathy for them, and not just sympathy, either, but empathy.

And the responses were never "I would have preferred this ending." but always more of the flavour of "Bioware didn't give ME the ending I wanted, they are therefore completely wrong and I will start a campaign of spite to spite them for their wrongish wrongfaced wrongitude!!! Games should be predictable, damn it!" and that was... well, disappointing.

But then, I'm often on the opposite end of opinions. I thought Dragon Age was boring and tremendously predictable and that was well-loved. (Though it was the game they wanted to make at the time, and I wouldn't have run a crazy campaign to change their minds. Still, I hope they won't go back to making plodding, predictable efforts after this. I hope their spirit to do the unusual hasn't been completely beaten out of them.)

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:55 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The expectation for Bioware to end their narrative with the fidelity they had used throughout the series was indeed woefully unmet.

If that's what you meant by "Bioware didn't give ME the ending I wanted"... then you're absolutely right. All I wanted was for the ending to make sense... good, bad, win, lose... didn't matter.

The story just fell apart... and I know they're better than that.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[chemiclord]

Bioware's silence can be attributed to one thing; it would not have done ANY good. And they're right.

Anybody who tried an honest discourse would have been eviscerated by the angry mob from Day 1, and I think deep down, we all know that. There would have been nothing short of bending over and kissing the collective fans asses that would have sufficed, and even then they probably would have been flamed.  Any honest responses from reasonable fans would have quickly been lost in the inferno of raw rage and bitterness and hatred.

The handful of official releases from the developer were ripped apart, their words stripped of context and the meanings twisted, then accused of being thinly veiled insults to the fan base.  Do you HONESTLY think a "live" discourse with Hudson or Walters or anyone on the writing or development team would have went ANY better?

Silence is honestly about the best thing they can do. Anything more would have stoked the flames even higher than they are now.

Modifié par chemiclord, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:21 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

They would've taken a verbal thrashing for sure.. but that would've been the point. To face that and provide answers (as they initially said the ending would do).

Would flames be stoked? I personally don't think so if they were honest and sure enough about their vision to defend it. They would only really be stoked if their vision didn't hold up (in this case... it doesn't) so their silence makes perfect sense.

A large part of the backlash isn't just the ending itself, it's the culmination of their recent actions that hint at a new "money-1st" policy in creating their games.  Examples include:

-Making a character and part of the story that's deeply interwoven into the game sold day 1 as DLC instead of being part of the game (extra money is the only answer).

-Pre-release hype that 'promised' to have an ending that does things it flat out did not do (such as providing answers, closure, not being A-B-C, and not being open-ended).


So it's not just that the ending was bad, but some fans may have bought the game in part because it was advertised to do something it didn't even try to do ("speculation from everyone").

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:30 .

[chemiclord]

Venting the way this forum would have, I have found, tends to have the exact OPPOSITE effect. It tends to make people MORE angry and violent... not LESS. It wouldn't have helped.

Sure, what would have helped more would have been delivering on at least most of their pre-release hype, but THAT ship sailed long ago. Right now, there's no response that would do less harm than more.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

chemiclord wrote...

Venting the way this forum would have, I have found, tends to have the exact OPPOSITE effect. It tends to make people MORE angry and violent... not LESS. It wouldn't have helped.

Sure, what would have helped more would have been delivering on at least most of their pre-release hype, but THAT ship sailed long ago. Right now, there's no response that would do less harm than more.

Yeah, that's what I mean.  If they explained themselves at the beginning instead of letting the confusion fester into anger/hatred, things would have gone over smoother.  At this point there's nothing left for Bioware to talk about.  We've already gone through the endings many times and there's really no redeeming it at this point (and Bioware would not be able to do it either... otherwise they would have).  They just dropped the ball.

And given that 'money-1st' stigma, the reason the ball was dropped in that manner feels like it was in order to cut cost and maximize profit at the expense of the narrative's quality.  Why not have a cheaper ending and save some money?  Getting your allies involved and showing a total conclusion would cost more than we'd like to spend.  Who cares why Joker left or where your squadmates went?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:39 .

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

Sure, what would have helped more would have been delivering on at least most of their pre-release hype, but THAT ship sailed long ago. Right now, there's no response that would do less harm than more.

I dunno.  Sometimes it's best to just rip the bandadge off

[WolfForce99]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Grubas wrote...

Sorry but bioware was really calm and though many well thought-out posts were floating around devs decided not to come out and talk. Seriously there were many offers to talk and they all have been slapped.

If BioWare "decided not to come out and talkm" how is this a "slap"? BioWare listens to feedback, but they have never promised that all feedback would be acknowledged, that they will respond to any questions, or that there is any obligation to engage in an explicit discussion with the community.

But just because they don't "come out and talk," it doesn't mean they aren't listening. It doesn't mean they hate you. It doesn't mean your ideas, feedback, or suggestions aren't good. I've seen many of the "offers to talk," and they have usually been from those who wish to accuse developers, berate them, demand an apology, or to interrogate them. That is hardly what I would call a sincere "offer to talk". And if you honestly believe that they are obligated to respond, acknowledge, or agree with you just because "you pay them" (which is patently untrue, by the way), then you have much to learn about how media and creative industries work.

I want to say that when the devs dont say anything for a long time it gets to a point ware you feel like you're talking to a large empty voide. The devs dont need to give game info every time. Just say any thing once in a while so we know that your still out there.

It's nice to know that you guys are still out there.

Modifié par WolfForce99, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:54 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

iakus wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Sure, what would have helped more would have been delivering on at least most of their pre-release hype, but THAT ship sailed long ago. Right now, there's no response that would do less harm than more.

I dunno.  Sometimes it's best to just rip the bandadge off

In this case, it would have been... but now, the fans have already done it without Bioware intervention... and Bioware is seen in a more negative light for not doing it themselves.

All that's left to do now is hope they learn from their mistakes... and be glad you didn't pay full price if they haven't.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 janvier 2013 - 05:42 .

[Iakus]

WolfForce99 wrote...

I want to say that when the devs dont say anything for a long time it gets to a point ware you feel like you're talking to a large empty voide. The devs dont need to give game info every time. Just say any thing once in a while so we know that your still out there.

It's nice to know that you guy are still out there.

Pretty much this.

Honestly I'm being reminded of that Homer Simpson line: "Lisa, just because I don't care doesn't mean i don't understand"

[Iakus]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

All that's left to do now is hope they learn from their mistakes... and be glad you didn't pay full price if they haven't.

At this point, however this goes, full price is no longer going to be an issue...

[chemiclord]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

-Pre-release hype that 'promised' to have an ending that does things it flat out did not do (such as providing answers, closure, not being A-B-C, and not being open-ended).

This statement here is actually part of the problem... it was a statement ripped entirely out of its original context and claimed to be a lie, that spread like wildfire and would have been thrown like a molotov cocktail at his face had he come forward and tried any sort of discourse.

Have you read the entire interview?  Or even the entire answer to the question posed?