435 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Gogeta34]

chemiclord wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

-Pre-release hype that 'promised' to have an ending that does things it flat out did not do (such as providing answers, closure, not being A-B-C, and not being open-ended).

This statement here is actually part of the problem... it was a statement ripped entirely out of its original context and claimed to be a lie, that spread like wildfire and would have been thrown like a molotov cocktail at his face had he come forward and tried any sort of discourse.

Have you read the entire interview?  Or even the entire answer to the question posed?

There's not many ways to interpret that information... but I'd love to hear yours.

[fiendishchicken]

Nope....

Hold on, wait.....

wait for it..... wait for it....

nope, still not there.

[JamesFaith]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
There's not many ways to interpret that information... but I'd love to hear yours.

I'm just reposting my answer on this from beginning of this thread to show that there is easy and legal way how interpret it. Enjoy.

Full version of quote is:

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them." - Casey Hudson

And as I few times said, this can be easily intepreted that number of ending and their quality isn't set in stone for everyone and that it would depend on every playthrough, which is true, because not everyone got Synthetis and they are more variations of Destroy.

That "no ABC ending" is just simplified version losing its former meaning.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

JamesFaith wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
There's not many ways to interpret that information... but I'd love to hear yours.

I'm just reposting my answer on this from beginning of this thread to show that there is easy and legal way how interpret it. Enjoy.

Full version of quote is:

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them." - Casey Hudson

And as I few times said, this can be easily intepreted that number of ending and their quality isn't set in stone for everyone and that it would depend on every playthrough, which is true, because not everyone got Synthetis and they are more variations of Destroy.

That "no ABC ending" is just simplified version losing its former meaning.

Traditional endings don't do that?  You either got ending A(blue), B(green), or C(red) with a "legendary ending" of Shepard taking a breath in ending C and "bad ending" of everyone dying/heavy earth damage in ending C (and perhaps some of the other letters).  But ultimately, it's still 3 basic endings that end with everyone being dead by the time the old man is talking.

Is there more sophistication than that in the actual ending (note I'm not talking about the choice leading up to the ending, but the actual ending)?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 07 janvier 2013 - 09:05 .

[In Exile]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not only will the galactic devastation continue even with a fair fight, but everyone in the galaxy will know that Shepard chose not to end it immediately... and that, easily, could spur the synthetic-organic conflict into a new reality, as all the races that suffered greatly from the continued war know that they were sacrificed for an untrusted minority.

And then the control ending can have Shepard restart the genocide when every single race isn't cool with the Reapers continuing to exist, and immediately try to continue the war against them at any cost, and then we have AISHep decide it's just better to push the reset button.

Because if we're telling one group of fans off to make our headcannon more justified, we should be equal opportunity about it.

[JamesFaith]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Traditional endings don't do that?  You either got ending A(blue), B(green), or C(red) with a "legendary ending" of Shepard taking a breath in ending C and "bad ending" of everyone dying/heavy earth damage in ending C (and perhaps some of the other letters).  But ultimately, it's still 3 basic endings that end with everyone being dead by the time the old man is talking.

Is there more sophistication than that in the actual ending (note I'm not talking about the choice leading up to the ending, but the actual ending)?

No, you were given different options based on your EMS.

You can get only worst Destroy where Earth is destroyed.
You can get only bad Control or worst Destroy.
And so on...

So by your words you can get only A, or only A and B.... not ABC everytime.

Traditional ending mostly offers same options for everyone who reach the end (BG: Throne of Bhaal)  or you followed path to one predictible end for longer part of game, where is no way back (Fallout: Las Vegas, Jade Empire). In this meaning there aren't traditional endings in ME3, when these options and their quality is uknown during first playthrough, when you didn't check their prerequisites on web.


And to that variety and sophistication - its ammount is purely subjective for everyone. You considered them identical - your choice. But for some people and especially for those, who created them, is big difference between anihilated Earth, crippled Earth and saved Earth.

[Indy_S]

With the original ending, it quite simply was 'did you pick blue, green or red'? So let's put that back into the whole quote so it remains contextual.

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending red, blue, or green.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them." - Casey Hudson

The only way that doesn't seem like a cheap ripoff is if you understand that 'got' and 'pick' are different. And of course, 'got' would be affected by the prior events in the game. 'Pick' just seems to be an arbitrary 'this game ends on a choice' take on it.

Again, all from the original ending. That which was shipped on disc is the most played and because of that, we were lied to.

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

No, you were given different options based on your EMS.

You can get only worst Destroy where Earth is destroyed.
You can get only bad Control or worst Destroy.
And so on...

So by your words you can get only A, or only A and B.... not ABC everytime.

Traditional ending mostly offers same options for everyone who reach the end (BG: Throne of Bhaal)  or you followed path to one predictible end for longer part of game, where is no way back (Fallout: Las Vegas, Jade Empire). In this meaning there aren't traditional endings in ME3, when these options and their quality is uknown during first playthrough, when you didn't check their prerequisites on web.


And to that variety and sophistication - its ammount is purely subjective for everyone. You considered them identical - your choice. But for some people and especially for those, who created them, is big difference between anihilated Earth, crippled Earth and saved Earth.

Fallout: New Vegas, which you cited as a traditional ending, can have wildly different endings based on your events. Whether the Boomers bomb the dam or not is up to you, it's a change in the ending. Hell, it even affects the epilogue. So I suppose Mass Effect 3 does not have a traditonal game's ending because it doesn't offer ENOUGH choices in it as well as offering greater than 2 choices. That's a narrow band of 'not traditional endings'.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...
The only way that doesn't seem like a cheap ripoff is if you understand that 'got' and 'pick' are different. And of course, 'got' would be affected by the prior events in the game. 'Pick' just seems to be an arbitrary 'this game ends on a choice' take on it.

Again, all from the original ending. That which was shipped on disc is the most played and because of that, we were lied to.

So if I understand you correct, you claim that Casey lied because gamers thought that his "got" means "pick"? 
He said "got", he mean "got", some gamers understand it it "pick" and that made it lie, because they misunderstand it?

Because , honestly, until now I never consider "got" and "pick" have equal meaning. 

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

No, you were given different options based on your EMS.

You can get only worst Destroy where Earth is destroyed.
You can get only bad Control or worst Destroy.
And so on...

So by your words you can get only A, or only A and B.... not ABC everytime.

Traditional ending mostly offers same options for everyone who reach the end (BG: Throne of Bhaal)  or you followed path to one predictible end for longer part of game, where is no way back (Fallout: Las Vegas, Jade Empire). In this meaning there aren't traditional endings in ME3, when these options and their quality is uknown during first playthrough, when you didn't check their prerequisites on web.


And to that variety and sophistication - its ammount is purely subjective for everyone. You considered them identical - your choice. But for some people and especially for those, who created them, is big difference between anihilated Earth, crippled Earth and saved Earth.

Fallout: New Vegas, which you cited as a traditional ending, can have wildly different endings based on your events. Whether the Boomers bomb the dam or not is up to you, it's a change in the ending. Hell, it even affects the epilogue. So I suppose Mass Effect 3 does not have a traditonal game's ending because it doesn't offer ENOUGH choices in it as well as offering greater than 2 choices. That's a narrow band of 'not traditional endings'.

You misunderstand me.
 
I used Fallout: LAs Vegas as example of game, where you chose your way to end long before end itself and it is true. There is moment in game where you have to stop co-opperate with House, Ceasar or NCR and chose one path.

What did you say about other choices would be connected with that "variety and sophistication" part of Casey's claim., where I agree Fallout was better. But core ends are House, NCR and Ceasar end.
 

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
The only way that doesn't seem like a cheap ripoff is if you understand that 'got' and 'pick' are different. And of course, 'got' would be affected by the prior events in the game. 'Pick' just seems to be an arbitrary 'this game ends on a choice' take on it.

Again, all from the original ending. That which was shipped on disc is the most played and because of that, we were lied to.

So if I understand you correct, you claim that Casey lied because gamers thought that his "got" means "pick"? 
He said "got", he mean "got", some gamers understand it it "pick" and that made it lie, because they misunderstand it?

Because , honestly, until now I never consider "got" and "pick" have equal meaning. 

The ending is unaffected by the prior events in the game. "Got" was used in place of "pick", he has lied to us, unintentionally or otherwise. The ability to 'get' different endings has no affect on what ending you 'pick'. And if you do 'pick' as you have to for the story, you 'pick' A, B or C.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
The only way that doesn't seem like a cheap ripoff is if you understand that 'got' and 'pick' are different. And of course, 'got' would be affected by the prior events in the game. 'Pick' just seems to be an arbitrary 'this game ends on a choice' take on it.

Again, all from the original ending. That which was shipped on disc is the most played and because of that, we were lied to.

So if I understand you correct, you claim that Casey lied because gamers thought that his "got" means "pick"? 
He said "got", he mean "got", some gamers understand it it "pick" and that made it lie, because they misunderstand it?

Because , honestly, until now I never consider "got" and "pick" have equal meaning. 

The ending is unaffected by the prior events in the game. "Got" was used in place of "pick", he has lied to us, unintentionally or otherwise. The ability to 'get' different endings has no affect on what ending you 'pick'. And if you do 'pick' as you have to for the story, you 'pick' A, B or C.

If this is true so how would you pick C (Synthesis) when got only A (Destroy) and B (Control) thanks to your low EMS?

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

No, you were given different options based on your EMS.

You can get only worst Destroy where Earth is destroyed.
You can get only bad Control or worst Destroy.
And so on...

So by your words you can get only A, or only A and B.... not ABC everytime.

Traditional ending mostly offers same options for everyone who reach the end (BG: Throne of Bhaal)  or you followed path to one predictible end for longer part of game, where is no way back (Fallout: Las Vegas, Jade Empire). In this meaning there aren't traditional endings in ME3, when these options and their quality is uknown during first playthrough, when you didn't check their prerequisites on web.


And to that variety and sophistication - its ammount is purely subjective for everyone. You considered them identical - your choice. But for some people and especially for those, who created them, is big difference between anihilated Earth, crippled Earth and saved Earth.

Fallout: New Vegas, which you cited as a traditional ending, can have wildly different endings based on your events. Whether the Boomers bomb the dam or not is up to you, it's a change in the ending. Hell, it even affects the epilogue. So I suppose Mass Effect 3 does not have a traditonal game's ending because it doesn't offer ENOUGH choices in it as well as offering greater than 2 choices. That's a narrow band of 'not traditional endings'.

You misunderstand me.
 
I used Fallout: LAs Vegas as example of game, where you chose your way to end long before end itself and it is true. There is moment in game where you have to stop co-opperate with House, Ceasar or NCR and chose one path.

What did you say about other choices would be connected with that "variety and sophistication" part of Casey's claim., where I agree Fallout was better. But core ends are House, NCR and Ceasar end.
 

So the difference is that the deviation in plot happening later makes the ending better? Position of this choice of deviation matters, I agree, but putting it at the very end gives it the least impact possible. If F:NV really is a traditional game, it offers the exact same choices but asks you to make your mind up earlier.

And you forgot the D ending, Wild Card. I love Yes Man, just so happy about everything.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

So the difference is that the deviation in plot happening later makes the ending better? Position of this choice of deviation matters, I agree, but putting it at the very end gives it the least impact possible. If F:NV really is a traditional game, it offers the exact same choices but asks you to make your mind up earlier.

And you forgot the D ending, Wild Card. I love Yes Man, just so happy about everything.

And where I said it is better?

I intently never said in this discussion how I subjectively saw these choices, I'm just speaking about that Casey's claim. If this choice is better or worse doesn't matter in this case, because he didn't say this type of ending choice is objectively better.

And D became later so it canť be used in intepretation of this claim.

Modifié par JamesFaith, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:05 .

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
The only way that doesn't seem like a cheap ripoff is if you understand that 'got' and 'pick' are different. And of course, 'got' would be affected by the prior events in the game. 'Pick' just seems to be an arbitrary 'this game ends on a choice' take on it.

Again, all from the original ending. That which was shipped on disc is the most played and because of that, we were lied to.

So if I understand you correct, you claim that Casey lied because gamers thought that his "got" means "pick"? 
He said "got", he mean "got", some gamers understand it it "pick" and that made it lie, because they misunderstand it?

Because , honestly, until now I never consider "got" and "pick" have equal meaning. 

The ending is unaffected by the prior events in the game. "Got" was used in place of "pick", he has lied to us, unintentionally or otherwise. The ability to 'get' different endings has no affect on what ending you 'pick'. And if you do 'pick' as you have to for the story, you 'pick' A, B or C.

If this is true so how would you pick C (Synthesis) when got only A (Destroy) and B (Control) thanks to your low EMS?

Bringing New Vegas into this quote chain as well, how would you pick Ceasar after breaking two of his plots? How would you pick House after killing him? You only get NCR and Wild Card after these. If you're arguing that F:NV is a traditional game, Mass Effect 3 is just like it in this regard. And that means Hudson lied.

I think I'm losing the pick/got debate. Thank you for correcting me in that regard. It did however give me another reason to think he was lying.

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

So the difference is that the deviation in plot happening later makes the ending better? Position of this choice of deviation matters, I agree, but putting it at the very end gives it the least impact possible. If F:NV really is a traditional game, it offers the exact same choices but asks you to make your mind up earlier.

And you forgot the D ending, Wild Card. I love Yes Man, just so happy about everything.

And where I said it is better?

I intently never said in this discussion how I subjectively saw these choice, I'm just speaking about that Casey's claim. If this choice is better or worse doesn't matter, because he didn't say this type of ending choise is objectively better.

And D became later so it canť be used in intepretation of this claim.

You're right, you never said it was better. I mistook your attitude regarding the deviation offered by the final choice as an inferrence that one was better than the other and that you would oppose me in this regard. The last sentence in the first paragraph still stands.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...
You're right, you never said it was better. I mistook your attitude regarding the deviation offered by the final choice as an inferrence that one was better than the other and that you would oppose me in this regard. The last sentence in the first paragraph still stands.

And by that D you mean Refuse?

Because if yes, this is irrelevant for intepretation of this claim which was made about original three endings. D came later in EC.

Or you just spoke about your mocking?

Modifié par JamesFaith, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:14 .

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...
You're right, you never said it was better. I mistook your attitude regarding the deviation offered by the final choice as an inferrence that one was better than the other and that you would oppose me in this regard. The last sentence in the first paragraph still stands.

And by that D you mean Refuse?

Because if yes, this is irrelevant for intepretation of this claim which was made about original three endings. D came later in EC.

Or you just spoke about your mocking?

The D I was talking about was Yes Man, the independent New Vegas option. I intend to leave Refuse out because, as you said, it came later. The sentence I was pointing to in my quote was this one:

If F:NV really is a traditional game, it offers the exact same choices but asks you to make your mind up earlier.

And I had no intention to mock. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

Bringing New Vegas into this quote chain as well, how would you pick Ceasar after breaking two of his plots? How would you pick House after killing him? You only get NCR and Wild Card after these. If you're arguing that F:NV is a traditional game, Mass Effect 3 is just like it in this regard. And that means Hudson lied.

I think I'm losing the pick/got debate. Thank you for correcting me in that regard. It did however give me another reason to think he was lying.

OK, i try to explain it again.

Traditional ending by my opinion n.1 - same choices for everyone at the end.

Traditional ending n.2  - you chose your way long before end, so you already know "core end"  long before you reach it. When you started looking for saboteur on Dam in Fallout, you already know that you will get NCR ending. When you follow path of Open hand in Jade empire, you know you get Open palm end. When you give Adanos artefacts to Belial in Gothic 3, you know that after following quests you will get Belial ending. And so on...

ME3  ending - depends on some choices (EMS) but contrary to Fallout you don't know what "core endings" you get until the last moment, unless you have some EMS manual in your hand.


And because I can't recall some games with ME3 end mechanics, but I can recall many with n.1 and n.2 types, I don't consider ME3 as traditional.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

The D I was talking about was Yes Man, the independent New Vegas option. I intend to leave Refuse out because, as you said, it came later. The sentence I was pointing to in my quote was this one:

If F:NV really is a traditional game, it offers the exact same choices but asks you to make your mind up earlier.

And I had no intention to mock. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

My bad.

I forgot on this Fallout end and Yes Man is one of many insults of people who don't flow with hate stream on BSN.

[Kulbelbolka]

All that aggressive s**tstorm, all that critics and massive dissappointment were very useful for Bioware. It was a signal that the doing some things terribly wrong since DA2. And now, I hope, they won't make the same mistakes.

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Bringing New Vegas into this quote chain as well, how would you pick Ceasar after breaking two of his plots? How would you pick House after killing him? You only get NCR and Wild Card after these. If you're arguing that F:NV is a traditional game, Mass Effect 3 is just like it in this regard. And that means Hudson lied.

I think I'm losing the pick/got debate. Thank you for correcting me in that regard. It did however give me another reason to think he was lying.

OK, i try to explain it again.

Traditional ending by my opinion n.1 - same choices for everyone at the end.

Traditional ending n.2  - you chose your way long before end, so you already know "core end"  long before you reach it. When you started looking for saboteur on Dam in Fallout, you already know that you will get NCR ending. When you follow path of Open hand in Jade empire, you know you get Open palm end. When you give Adanos artefacts to Belial in Gothic 3, you know that after following quests you will get Belial ending. And so on...

ME3  ending - depends on some choices (EMS) but contrary to Fallout you don't know what "core endings" you get until the last moment, unless you have some EMS manual in your hand.


And because I can't recall some games with ME3 end mechanics, but I can recall many with n.1 and n.2 types, I don't consider ME3 as traditional.

A twist ending combined with a choice ending. A twist-choice ending. You're right that I can't think of many that match that. The other Mass Effects do (although only A and but I can't count them against their own sequel. Maybe Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

I might be dissatisfied with its execution, but you are right. A twist-choice ending... Surprising.

[Outsider edge]

Indy_S wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Bringing New Vegas into this quote chain as well, how would you pick Ceasar after breaking two of his plots? How would you pick House after killing him? You only get NCR and Wild Card after these. If you're arguing that F:NV is a traditional game, Mass Effect 3 is just like it in this regard. And that means Hudson lied.

I think I'm losing the pick/got debate. Thank you for correcting me in that regard. It did however give me another reason to think he was lying.

OK, i try to explain it again.

Traditional ending by my opinion n.1 - same choices for everyone at the end.

Traditional ending n.2  - you chose your way long before end, so you already know "core end"  long before you reach it. When you started looking for saboteur on Dam in Fallout, you already know that you will get NCR ending. When you follow path of Open hand in Jade empire, you know you get Open palm end. When you give Adanos artefacts to Belial in Gothic 3, you know that after following quests you will get Belial ending. And so on...

ME3  ending - depends on some choices (EMS) but contrary to Fallout you don't know what "core endings" you get until the last moment, unless you have some EMS manual in your hand.


And because I can't recall some games with ME3 end mechanics, but I can recall many with n.1 and n.2 types, I don't consider ME3 as traditional.

A twist ending combined with a choice ending. A twist-choice ending. You're right that I can't think of many that match that. The other Mass Effects do (although only A and but I can't count them against their own sequel. Maybe Deus Ex: Human Revolution?

I might be dissatisfied with its execution, but you are right. A twist-choice ending... Surprising.

The writers might have gone for something original but it's execution leaves alot too be desired. A twist ending is fine when there's some foreboding towards it. So when the twist ending happens one can backtrack too the story too see various hints pointing towards it. With the Catalyst the first hint towards it's very existence drops at the end of the Thessia mission about 75-80% into the final game. Not a shred of evidence can be found prior too that moment.

[Indy_S]

Outsider edge wrote...

The writers might have gone for something original but it's execution leaves alot too be desired. A twist ending is fine when there's some foreboding towards it. So when the twist ending happens one can backtrack too the story too see various hints pointing towards it. With the Catalyst the first hint towards it's very existence drops at the end of the Thessia mission about 75-80% into the final game. Not a shred of evidence can be found prior too that moment.

You're right about that. The execution was dreadful. And just as twists only work with foreshadowing, choices work the same way. Synthesis came from nowhere and Control was only supported by a single character that was also an antagonist, making it fruit from the poisoned tree.

It was a Deus Ex Machina handled poorly trying to do something new.

And as an additional thought, Human Revolution also tried this twist-choice ending and it didn't really succeed at it either. I don't know if the concept is bad, it just needs someone to show it can work.

Modifié par Indy_S, 07 janvier 2013 - 11:17 .

[Outsider edge]

Indy_S wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

The writers might have gone for something original but it's execution leaves alot too be desired. A twist ending is fine when there's some foreboding towards it. So when the twist ending happens one can backtrack too the story too see various hints pointing towards it. With the Catalyst the first hint towards it's very existence drops at the end of the Thessia mission about 75-80% into the final game. Not a shred of evidence can be found prior too that moment.

You're right about that. The execution was dreadful. And just as twists only work with foreshadowing, choices work the same way. Synthesis came from nowhere and Control was only supported by a single character that was also an antagonist, making it fruit from the poisoned tree.

It was a Deus Ex Machina handled poorly trying to do something new.

And as an additional thought, Human Revolution also tried this twist-choice ending and it didn't really succeed at it either. I don't know if the concept is bad, it just needs someone to show it can work.

Well with Deus Ex:Human revolution the ending was decent cause it fell back on previous Deus Ex games. It was more a nod too the older games then an attempt at being genuine original.

This is in my opinion also a reason why the twist-choice ending (let's call it that) for Mass Effect doesn't work that well. Both Mass Effect 1 and 2 had conventional endings. A big threat was introduced and you defeat said threat at the end. Mass Effect 3's ending in comparison doesn't really fit.

Too make a movie comparison that has been noted before. A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and 2001: A Space Odessey are all three considered too be sci-fi masterpieces of cinema. But if you would put these three in a concurring trilogy any observer could tell you something is off. The same goes for the Mass Effect trilogy it's third entry doesn't feel like a good fit with the other two entries especially at the ending.