For criticizing no not at all, i try to keep it clean no personal attacks etc. I am passionate about it though and will say Bioware has lost their way maybe one day they will see how far they have fallen with quality.
The games they use to make some of the best games i've ever played.
Does Anyone Else Feel Bad For Offering (Actual) Criticism? Due to BSN overall tone?
Débuté par
StElmo
, déc. 29 2012 05:33
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#27
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 08:46
thefallen2far
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No, I don't feel bad for criticizing them because I honestly don't think they feel bad about being criticized. They've stated numerous times they ignore non constructive feedback which requires you to acknowledge there's value in what was presented. I mean seriously, the ending, the game itself, their reasoning.... it's inherently flawed. It's like trying to find the constructive feedback on fascism.
They abandoned the theme of confronting corruption by making everything corrupt, they abandoned the theme of perseverence by having the main character give up at the end or the universe is destroyed, they abandoned game mechanics by getting rid of minigames and a final boss so they can tell their story which wasn't that good, they abandoned character/relationship development for most of the characters in ME2 so it's simpler to focus on their new ideas which weren't as good, they abandoned rules of the universe to have simplified concepts and zealous melodrama, they abandoned SP choice for MP expansions, they abandoned contemporary storytelling for speculation and controversy, they abandon discovery for "not wasting time", they abandon RPG for an action game..... basically, they should have hired someone to tell them something was a bad idea. In film and writing, they're called editors, and whoever was the equivalent of that position didn't to their job or was removed from the project, because all nine floors of this metaphorical building is constructed on peat and sand. Constructive criticism is pointless if the foundation is made of imagination and speculation.
That said, they're in a position where they go to work every day in the entertainment industry. So no, I don't feel bad about criticizing them. I'd feel bad if they acknowledged anything I said actually hurt their feelings, but they're either prevented from doing so because of their job at EA, don't care to do so or they don't acknowledge it. So what's there to feel bad about?
They abandoned the theme of confronting corruption by making everything corrupt, they abandoned the theme of perseverence by having the main character give up at the end or the universe is destroyed, they abandoned game mechanics by getting rid of minigames and a final boss so they can tell their story which wasn't that good, they abandoned character/relationship development for most of the characters in ME2 so it's simpler to focus on their new ideas which weren't as good, they abandoned rules of the universe to have simplified concepts and zealous melodrama, they abandoned SP choice for MP expansions, they abandoned contemporary storytelling for speculation and controversy, they abandon discovery for "not wasting time", they abandon RPG for an action game..... basically, they should have hired someone to tell them something was a bad idea. In film and writing, they're called editors, and whoever was the equivalent of that position didn't to their job or was removed from the project, because all nine floors of this metaphorical building is constructed on peat and sand. Constructive criticism is pointless if the foundation is made of imagination and speculation.
That said, they're in a position where they go to work every day in the entertainment industry. So no, I don't feel bad about criticizing them. I'd feel bad if they acknowledged anything I said actually hurt their feelings, but they're either prevented from doing so because of their job at EA, don't care to do so or they don't acknowledge it. So what's there to feel bad about?
#28
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 08:58
RocketManSR2
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There would be a bit of a s***storm at first, but I wish BioWare would just talk to us like they once did. In any case, they've heard the good criticism. It looks like we may have to wait until 4 or whatever it will be called to find out if it registered. Some of the regulars that have left won't come back, but if BioWare will just make RPGs like they once did, a few might come back. The problem is EA. Would EA allow one of their companies to drop the "all games must have MP" in order to craft the games that they are the best at? I doubt it, and games like DA:O and KotOR would have suffered greatly by forcing some kind of MP into them.
#29
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 09:15
dorktainian
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www.youtube.com/watch
no.
skip to 1:16:40 of the vid for why criticism of Bioware is partly justified. They may defend it as art (i can see their point of view a little) but at the end of the day.......we gave a damn. it was our story. ignore what bioware says. listen to arch talking about why (a much better writer than any of the bioware staff) thinks that fans matter.
no.
skip to 1:16:40 of the vid for why criticism of Bioware is partly justified. They may defend it as art (i can see their point of view a little) but at the end of the day.......we gave a damn. it was our story. ignore what bioware says. listen to arch talking about why (a much better writer than any of the bioware staff) thinks that fans matter.
Modifié par dorktainian, 29 décembre 2012 - 09:15 .
#30
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 09:31
Femlob
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Does Anyone Else Feel Bad For Offering Criticism?
nope.jpg
#31
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 10:04
Mr. Gogeta34
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I don't feel bad about criticizing Bioware at all. They deserve it.
Next time, they had better apply more time and budget to ensure their ending is finished to the standard of their previous games in the series and that their DLC-sized content gets included with the game at launch (or for free near launch) if they want my non-used game business.
Next time, they had better apply more time and budget to ensure their ending is finished to the standard of their previous games in the series and that their DLC-sized content gets included with the game at launch (or for free near launch) if they want my non-used game business.
Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:06 .
#32
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 10:19
RiptideX1090
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I feel bad in the sense that a lot of people put a tremendous amount of work into this game and this universe, and for them to have to endure the hate for their ending they have must have been hard.
But at the same time, that ending made ME feel bad. I've poured so much of my life into this universe, into stories and fanart and the games themselves. Bioware are great story tellers, and I'm invested. I was, like many other fans, crushed by disappointment in the end, and in turn insulted by the continued attempts to put a bandaid on a hemorrhaging wound with retroactive foreshadow ala Leviathan.
Really, no one came out of this looking pretty.
But at the same time, that ending made ME feel bad. I've poured so much of my life into this universe, into stories and fanart and the games themselves. Bioware are great story tellers, and I'm invested. I was, like many other fans, crushed by disappointment in the end, and in turn insulted by the continued attempts to put a bandaid on a hemorrhaging wound with retroactive foreshadow ala Leviathan.
Really, no one came out of this looking pretty.
#33
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 10:26
Outsider edge
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Well one can make a comparison with Dragon Age 2. When that game released the forums blew up aswell. Albeit that was more too do with technical stuff like recycled dungeons, awesome buttons and the like. The devs there for a time also had their heads in the sand refusing too acknowledge any criticism thrown their way. But after a few months they actually opened up a dialogue with the fanbase. Made a good inventory of the biggest problems and kept them in the loop concerning future DLC. Then Legacy dropped and it was very obvious they "got it". It's one of the main reasons why i have good faith in Dragon Age:inquisition becoming a good game.
With Mass Effect 3 the problem mostly lays with it's writing instead of technical issues. And the writers haven't given any signal thus far they actually have a good grasp of the problems. The EC simply enhanced the endings and retconned the most brutal stuff without altering all the problems with the plot. The payed storybased DLC Leviathan felt like it's main purpose was too retroactively foreshadow the Catalyst. They also introduce creatures arguably more powerful then the Reapers themselves and let them shift too the background when the DLC was done and the only reaction the ventboy has on it is a "whateva i do what i want" type of response. Storywise that DLC didn't add anything and in fact opened up more convenient nonsense.
Omega had very little story but for a "battle"dlc (You're taking something back...)it can be excused.
So for me i'm still waiting too see if they can recreate something qualitywise like Tuckanka's arc. The next DLC apparently has all the writers involved so let's see what that one will bring too the table.
Untill that time however i have no problems with voicing some valid concerns with the product Mass Effect 3 as it's currently available.
With Mass Effect 3 the problem mostly lays with it's writing instead of technical issues. And the writers haven't given any signal thus far they actually have a good grasp of the problems. The EC simply enhanced the endings and retconned the most brutal stuff without altering all the problems with the plot. The payed storybased DLC Leviathan felt like it's main purpose was too retroactively foreshadow the Catalyst. They also introduce creatures arguably more powerful then the Reapers themselves and let them shift too the background when the DLC was done and the only reaction the ventboy has on it is a "whateva i do what i want" type of response. Storywise that DLC didn't add anything and in fact opened up more convenient nonsense.
Omega had very little story but for a "battle"dlc (You're taking something back...)it can be excused.
So for me i'm still waiting too see if they can recreate something qualitywise like Tuckanka's arc. The next DLC apparently has all the writers involved so let's see what that one will bring too the table.
Untill that time however i have no problems with voicing some valid concerns with the product Mass Effect 3 as it's currently available.
Modifié par Outsider edge, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:30 .
#34
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 10:30
RiptideX1090
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Basically everything you said Outsider, I agree with.
#35
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 10:30
Tirronan
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Even Bioware has stated that when it is to a point that is constructive they understand and welcome it. I think the point is that there is a point where some of gone over the line. There is no perfect book and there is no perfect game. ME3 comes closer to that perfection except for the ending than most that I have seen. Oh I might cry a bit about this and that but at the end of the day it is Bio Ware games that I prefer most of all and there is a solid reason for that.
I think when we go over the line the thought starts to be come "how precious my opinion is" instead of what would make it better. As a company once I finished a game I darn sure wouldn't revisit it except for DLC and bug fixes. It is a business after all.
At the end of the day if you really are that mad about the game then don't buy from them anymore. I don't see the need to go overboard and make hurtful comments.
I think when we go over the line the thought starts to be come "how precious my opinion is" instead of what would make it better. As a company once I finished a game I darn sure wouldn't revisit it except for DLC and bug fixes. It is a business after all.
At the end of the day if you really are that mad about the game then don't buy from them anymore. I don't see the need to go overboard and make hurtful comments.
Modifié par Tirronan, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:32 .
#36
Guest_Fandango_*
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 10:31
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I feel bad for supporting a game that was so obviously misrepresented to me prior to launch with my money. Won’t happen again.
Modifié par Fandango9641, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:32 .
#37
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 10:36
Mr. Gogeta34
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As the poster above me mentioned... another reason Bioware is receiving so much negative criticism is that a surprising number of the issues players have with the game are things Bioware themselves 'promised' they wouldn't have..
Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:37 .
#38
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 11:30
Raizo
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No, although I do worry sometimes that the tone of my criticism' is sometimes a bit harsh. I also worry that noone pays attention to alot of the things I have to say because I'm not really sure how put my thoughts and feelings into words, I'm afraid that I lack the vocabulary to properly list my grieviences with ME3 and as such I tend to come off as just a hater when in reality I'm am a fan of the ME Universe, a very passionate fan who was let down by ME3. I feel that my opinions are valid and that they have merit and I want Bioware to learn from some of the mistakes they made with ME3 so that the next ME game will be better.
#39
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 11:39
Mr. Gogeta34
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@Raizo, they're professionals that can pick the meat from the bone.
Kids may want their information a certain way... but pros that truly value and appreciate their craft accept criticism of all kinds (as long as they're legitimate).
Kids may want their information a certain way... but pros that truly value and appreciate their craft accept criticism of all kinds (as long as they're legitimate).
#40
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 11:44
SpamBot2000
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So hurt, angry people are just plain "awful", while the people who hurt and angered them deserve nothing but meek adoration? And your humble entreaties to the devs go unanswered only because those bad people keep meddling?
What next? "Yes, he held me at gunpoint, then tied me up and kept me as a hostage for 6 weeks. But that was because the mean cops would have arrested him for the so-called 'crime' of taking what the world owed him for being such a beautiful soul!"?
'Capital of Sweden' + 'A group of symptoms that collectively indicate or characterize a disease, psychological disorder, or other abnormal condition'.
What next? "Yes, he held me at gunpoint, then tied me up and kept me as a hostage for 6 weeks. But that was because the mean cops would have arrested him for the so-called 'crime' of taking what the world owed him for being such a beautiful soul!"?
'Capital of Sweden' + 'A group of symptoms that collectively indicate or characterize a disease, psychological disorder, or other abnormal condition'.
Modifié par SpamBot2000, 29 décembre 2012 - 11:45 .
#41
Guest_Sion1138_*
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 11:45
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No. Never.
Slam it into oblivion, it's the respectful thing to do. They will be better for it.
Slam it into oblivion, it's the respectful thing to do. They will be better for it.
#42
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 11:51
Brovikk Rasputin
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There's people who complain and then there's whiners. This forum has a lot of the last , but the best thing you can do is to ignore them.
#43
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 11:58
Pantanplan
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And what's the difference between complaining and whining to you?Brovikk Rasputin wrote...
There's people who complain and then there's whiners. This forum has a lot of the last , but the best thing you can do is to ignore them.
#44
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 12:51
crimzontearz
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when the response the criticism is dismissal it completely missing the point (I am looking at you 2 breath scene and Refuse option) then why bother?
#45
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 01:06
ZLurps
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@OP.
I think it sure takes thick skin to go through feedback from BSN.
Personally, I have seen gifted people on these forums, which doesn't necessarily mean people who think they are gifted. Game is one form of media and perhaps there are people among us who could gain something from "fan made reverse engineering".
It's funny really, when there's something positive to say, I liked also BW to see it, perhaps consider it, but what comes to other things...
Well, I could say "take your film out of my game" but even then, perhaps someone else would benefit more about pondering where and how and how often certain lines in games is good to cross (some "camera" work in ME3 is damn good actually) or perhaps I find thought about doing volunteer work for multimillion dollar corporation disgusting.
I think it sure takes thick skin to go through feedback from BSN.
Personally, I have seen gifted people on these forums, which doesn't necessarily mean people who think they are gifted. Game is one form of media and perhaps there are people among us who could gain something from "fan made reverse engineering".
It's funny really, when there's something positive to say, I liked also BW to see it, perhaps consider it, but what comes to other things...
Well, I could say "take your film out of my game" but even then, perhaps someone else would benefit more about pondering where and how and how often certain lines in games is good to cross (some "camera" work in ME3 is damn good actually) or perhaps I find thought about doing volunteer work for multimillion dollar corporation disgusting.
Modifié par ZLurps, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:07 .
#46
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 01:09
hoodaticus
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These people keep trash talking the devs though. The developers are the programmers - they did an almost perfect job. I am proud of them on behalf of the software engineering profession of which I am a part. While the devs undoubtedly have a hand in content and want it to be great, that interest is nothing compared to how much they care about the code. They will gladly let someone else totally dictate contact so that their program is beautiful on the inside and flawless on the outside. Any blame needs to go to the writers, the application managers, and the producers. (Many people have been considerate and directed their criticism at the appropriate parties rather than the devs, and their thoughtfulness is noted).vivaladricas wrote...
They got paid well, really well I am sure. If I am raking in that cash I am a happy camper. Wrong business if they don't want criticism, a lot bigger people in media and arts take it and expect it.
ADD: I found a lot of the critiques fine and intelligent, the nastiness more often was forum people going at each other.
Despite all the slash-and-burn criticism, ME3 was the best game to hit the market in any genre since ME2, and that's a fact.
PS - @Bioware: MORE MEERSHEPLOO!
Modifié par hoodaticus, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:14 .
#47
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 01:25
crimzontearz
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and that is why I idolize Brenon Holmes but want to see Mac Walters and Casey Hudson either terminated or put in a position that holds no creative influence over future gameshoodaticus wrote...
These people keep trash talking the devs though. The developers are the programmers - they did an almost perfect job. I am proud of them on behalf of the software engineering profession of which I am a part. While the devs undoubtedly have a hand in content and want it to be great, that interest is nothing compared to how much they care about the code. They will gladly let someone else totally dictate contact so that their program is beautiful on the inside and flawless on the outside. Any blame needs to go to the writers, the application managers, and the producers. (Many people have been considerate and directed their criticism at the appropriate parties rather than the devs, and their thoughtfulness is noted).vivaladricas wrote...
They got paid well, really well I am sure. If I am raking in that cash I am a happy camper. Wrong business if they don't want criticism, a lot bigger people in media and arts take it and expect it.
ADD: I found a lot of the critiques fine and intelligent, the nastiness more often was forum people going at each other.
Despite all the slash-and-burn criticism, ME3 was the best game to hit the market in any genre since ME2, and that's a fact.
PS - @Bioware: MORE MEERSHEPLOO!
#48
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 01:43
Outsider edge
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crimzontearz wrote...
and that is why I idolize Brenon Holmes but want to see Mac Walters and Casey Hudson either terminated or put in a position that holds no creative influence over future gameshoodaticus wrote...
These people keep trash talking the devs though. The developers are the programmers - they did an almost perfect job. I am proud of them on behalf of the software engineering profession of which I am a part. While the devs undoubtedly have a hand in content and want it to be great, that interest is nothing compared to how much they care about the code. They will gladly let someone else totally dictate contact so that their program is beautiful on the inside and flawless on the outside. Any blame needs to go to the writers, the application managers, and the producers. (Many people have been considerate and directed their criticism at the appropriate parties rather than the devs, and their thoughtfulness is noted).vivaladricas wrote...
They got paid well, really well I am sure. If I am raking in that cash I am a happy camper. Wrong business if they don't want criticism, a lot bigger people in media and arts take it and expect it.
ADD: I found a lot of the critiques fine and intelligent, the nastiness more often was forum people going at each other.
Despite all the slash-and-burn criticism, ME3 was the best game to hit the market in any genre since ME2, and that's a fact.
PS - @Bioware: MORE MEERSHEPLOO!
Well i wouldn't go that far don't forget both of them have assisted in making fine games in the past. So the potential is there they only fumbled horribly with Mass Effect 3 for some reason.
#49
Guest_Finn the Jakey_*
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 01:47
Guest_Finn the Jakey_*
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RiptideX1090 wrote...
I feel bad in the sense that a lot of people put a tremendous amount of work into this game and this universe, and for them to have to endure the hate for their ending they have must have been hard.
But at the same time, that ending made ME feel bad. I've poured so much of my life into this universe, into stories and fanart and the games themselves. Bioware are great story tellers, and I'm invested. I was, like many other fans, crushed by disappointment in the end, and in turn insulted by the continued attempts to put a bandaid on a hemorrhaging wound with retroactive foreshadow ala Leviathan.
Really, no one came out of this looking pretty.
Modifié par Finn the Jakey, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:49 .
#50
Posté 29 décembre 2012 - 01:50
crimzontearz
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they knowingly lied about many things ore release...strike 1Outsider edge wrote...
crimzontearz wrote...
and that is why I idolize Brenon Holmes but want to see Mac Walters and Casey Hudson either terminated or put in a position that holds no creative influence over future gameshoodaticus wrote...
These people keep trash talking the devs though. The developers are the programmers - they did an almost perfect job. I am proud of them on behalf of the software engineering profession of which I am a part. While the devs undoubtedly have a hand in content and want it to be great, that interest is nothing compared to how much they care about the code. They will gladly let someone else totally dictate contact so that their program is beautiful on the inside and flawless on the outside. Any blame needs to go to the writers, the application managers, and the producers. (Many people have been considerate and directed their criticism at the appropriate parties rather than the devs, and their thoughtfulness is noted).vivaladricas wrote...
They got paid well, really well I am sure. If I am raking in that cash I am a happy camper. Wrong business if they don't want criticism, a lot bigger people in media and arts take it and expect it.
ADD: I found a lot of the critiques fine and intelligent, the nastiness more often was forum people going at each other.
Despite all the slash-and-burn criticism, ME3 was the best game to hit the market in any genre since ME2, and that's a fact.
PS - @Bioware: MORE MEERSHEPLOO!
Well i wouldn't go that far don't forget both of them have assisted in making fine games in the past. So the potential is there they only fumbled horribly with Mass Effect 3 for some reason.
they hijacked the ending and BOTCHED IT then subtoy hinted the fans were too dull to understand. Strike 2
they had the chance to listen to us and fix things....they still managed to ****** people off offering a lovely middle finger 1-2 in the form of a non ending refuse option AND the non expansion of the breath scene...strike 3
no, I do not want them ANYWHERE NEAR anything I will buy in the future
