435 réponses à ce sujet

[legion999]

Nein.

[Teddie Sage]

Not at all. When you do a product and sell it worldwide, you gotta expect that not everyone will like your work and that criticism is part of all industries. Specially if the so-called product was hyped by many.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 29 décembre 2012 - 01:53 .

[RukiaKuchki]

People should never feel bad about offering criticism. It's the only way to make things better! Anything that is out there in a public forum is open to criticism, and Bioware are more than aware that they can't satisfy 100% of their customers, so this is an inevitability. They need your criticism to improve and be a successful business. However, there are two big problems that are often encountered on the BSN. Firstly, while a lot of people feel it's fair to criticize Bioware, they seem to feel that their own comments are beyond reproach, and take any opposition very personally. Unfortunately, this free flow of criticism must go both ways - you have to be prepared to have people disagree with, even ridicule, your opinions just as passionately if you decide to express them in a public forum. If you are unable to deal with this, you should avoid posting and the inevitable conflict.

The second problem is of course the manner in which a person criticizes. No one has ever said ME3 is beyond critique, but in order to have your message heard and acted upon, there is a way of explaining your thoughts in a rational way that people will respond to. Whining (I'm sorry, but there is a lot of whining on here from all camps), calling for people's resignations, hyperbole, childish insults to developers/moderators...it doesn't get your criticisms heard, it makes you look like a crazy person. I think for some, these forums are just a place to let off steam, not to look for answers or conversation, but just to scream out their disappointments to like-minded people. Scream all you like, no one is telling you can't. Just bear in mind that if you are in a room and there is a person there who insists on screaming in your face, and another person is talking... who are you most likely to listen to and who are you more likely to have escorted to the door? There has been a lot of criticism leveled towards Bioware and their lack of interactivity with the forums since the release of ME3. This is a real shame, but the forum has to take some responsibility for this also. The environment has become so toxic that any attempt at productive discussion would be met with overwhelming negativity and nastiness.

Modifié par RukiaKuchki, 29 décembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[TheProtheans]

Yeah, I don't respect liars.
They are only in it for the money, they do not deserve respect from me.

[SpamBot2000]

hoodaticus wrote...

These people keep trash talking the devs though.  The developers are the programmers - they did an almost perfect job.  I am proud of them on behalf of the software engineering profession of which I am a part.  While the devs undoubtedly have a hand in content and want it to be great, that interest is nothing compared to how much they care about the code.  They will gladly let someone else totally dictate contact so that their program is beautiful on the inside and flawless on the outside.  Any blame needs to go to the writers, the application managers, and the producers.  (Many people have been considerate and directed their criticism at the appropriate parties rather than the devs, and their thoughtfulness is noted).

Huh? The writers and producers don't count as 'devs'? I'd think they do.

As for the people doing the programming, obviously the mess is none of their fault. It's not even the fault of the majority of the writers. Too bad that a few people took the work of so many and trashed it. And BW as an entity is on the side of these few people.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 29 décembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[daecath]

StElmo wrote...

I try to make constructive posts on this board in the hopes that BioWare may take into account my thoughts.

I genuinely like the directio they have taken the ending, but I have a few points I would absolutely love to see patched up, just to tie everything together.

However, whenever I make one of these threads, a small group of awful people start making personal comments about devs without any basis, they make awful comments hating on BioWare and ultimately, they aren't tactful - which makes me sad.

It makes me sad because I am offering criticism that I hope will be taken into account, but at the same time I know BW probably see all these other posts along side it which seem a bit too mean, or not really pleasent enough to take notice.

We have to remember there are people making these games and we should respect that. As someone who makes games, I would also appreciate that from my audience if I ever am lucky enough to have on like BW.

I admit I am guilty of some passionate posts earlier in the year, but I try not to make anything seem mean or personal, because it has no basis and if anyone says anything with that kind of tone, its best ignored as they are misinformed.

Nobody knows the real truth about what happened, and even if they did, they shouldn't sink so low as to be jerks when criticising aspects of the game.

Thanks

<3 to all you guys at BioWare and I hope you don't feel disheartened

For the most part, I agree. As far as BioWare and its staff is concerned, I'm disappointed, but not angry. Most of my anger is directed at EA, and John Riccitiello specifically. And there, no, I don't feel bad at all. Because, while we don't know the specifics, we have enough evidence to say a few things with certainty.

Number one: ME3 was not the game BioWare planned to make.

This is a stone cold fact. All you have to do is look at the pre-release statements. Many of them don't seem to apply at all, and quite a few directly contradict what we actually got (ie. the infamous "no ABC endings" quote). Now, either BioWare was telling us bold-faced lies about their end product, or they had other plans which had to be scrapped. I seriously doubt they would tell such ridiculous lies though, and risk the hatred that the fans would have when they didn't come true.

Number two: ME3 was rushed.

While this one requires slightly more conjecture, the evidence is still there to support it. Simply compare the years between 1 and 2 to the years between 2 and 3.
There were two years between 1 and 2. During those two years, they produced:
ME2 on 2 platforms
Ported ME1 to a 2nd platform
produced 2 DLC's for ME1
produced 1 DLC for ME2

There were also two years between 2 and 3. During those two years, they produced:
ME3 on 3 platforms
ported ME2 to a 3rd platform
Produced 4 DLC's for ME2
produced 1 DLC for ME3
added multiplayer.

For those keeping track, that's 1 additional platform, 3 additional DLC's, and a multiplayer component over and above what they did during ME2's production, all in the same amount of time.

Basically they were rushed, had to cut a lot of corners, and the overall quality of the game, and in particular the ending, suffered for it. So yes, I have absolutely no problem blaming EA and their CEO for it. I have no problem expressing my anger at the way they treated this, and my abject hatred of the blatent greed and utter disregard for the quality of their product that they display. In particular, I think John Riccitiello has finished absolutely ruining anything that was ever good about EA, and I would applaud if he were to find himself hauling garbage or cleaning up ****** in a gas station bathroom.

[SpamBot2000]

daecath wrote...

All you have to do is look at the pre-release statements. Many of them don't seem to apply at all, and quite a few directly contradict what we actually got (ie. the infamous "no ABC endings" quote). Now, either BioWare was telling us bold-faced lies about their end product, or they had other plans which had to be scrapped. I seriously doubt they would tell such ridiculous lies though, and risk the hatred that the fans would have when they didn't come true.

The problem here is that BioWare was making those statements after work on ME3 was finished. It was done. There was no more room for planning. Yet they did say those things. You can't pin that on EA management.

So yeah, what is the alternative explanation? You said it.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 29 décembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Dr_Extrem]

FemaleMageFan wrote...

Funny thing on this board the environment has changed. From what i have seen the criticism given lacks respect,is often passive aggressive(sometimes full on aggressive) and is very sarcastic in nature.. Criticism is nice but there is also a way in which you present that criticism and that is what people need to learn on this board.

this is true ..

but .. if i ask a simple question about how cerberus could salvage the collector base without the reaper iff (wich is onboard the normandy, who was handed over to the alliance), i get shakey answers like: "it does not have to be explained" or "you just dont get it"

i see this point as a valid question and criticism - some people on this board, get überpissed about criticism and write the critic off as a whiner, retard or hater.

the environment here is toxic - from all sides. this board is dominated by trench warfare, ambiguity, bean counting, cherry picking and disfavour. i am a bit tired right now. i think i will just stick to the fanfiction forum.

[Dr_Extrem]

FemaleMageFan wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

FemaleMageFan wrote...

Funny thing on this board the environment has changed. From what i have seen the criticism given lacks respect,is often passive aggressive(sometimes full on aggressive) and is very sarcastic in nature.. Criticism is nice but there is also a way in which you present that criticism and that is what people need to learn on this board.

this is true ..

but .. if i ask a simple question about how cerberus could salvage the collector base without the reaper iff (wich is onboard the normandy, who was handed over to the alliance), i get shakey answers like: "it does not have to be explained" or "you just dont get it"

i see this point as a valid question and criticism - some people on this board, get überpissed about criticism and write the critic off as a whiner, retard or hater.

the environment here is toxic - from all sides. this board is dominated by trench warfare, ambiguity, bean counting, cherry picking and disfavour. i am a bit tired right now. i think i will just stick to the fanfiction forum.

Counterproductivity in it's fullest extent. 

qed

this forum is bitter - from all sides .. you just proved it. 

your answer is passive aggressive as well.

[JamesFaith]

FemaleMageFan wrote...

Funny thing on this board the environment has changed. From what i have seen the criticism given lacks respect,is often passive aggressive(sometimes full on aggressive) and is very sarcastic in nature.. Criticism is nice but there is also a way in which you present that criticism and that is what people need to learn on this board.

Good said.

Many people here forgot that form of criticue is same important as its content. I would always rather speak with someone who acting as adult mannered man, even if his criticiue is wrong, mistaken or not too good presented, then with someone who acting like agressive arrogant idiot and spitting insults, even if he had good point and arguments.

[SpamBot2000]

FemaleMageFan wrote...

Funny thing on this board the environment has changed. From what i have seen the criticism given lacks respect,is often passive aggressive(sometimes full on aggressive) and is very sarcastic in nature.. Criticism is nice but there is also a way in which you present that criticism and that is what people need to learn on this board.

Funny that ignoring the substance of what people are saying is frustrating and embittering them. Who'd have thought?

[Enigma SS]

There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. Criticism takes many forms, and I think criticism becomes a problem when people start getting really personal saying "There's really no point in continuing to make games BioWare, your company is beyond redemption, I hope you go bankrupt and all the people who worked hard on this game lose their jobs" etc.

Modifié par Enigma SS, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:12 .

[johnj1979]

wasn't that the point of the Mass Effect games to get a reaction from the user.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

crimzontearz wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

vivaladricas wrote...

They got paid well, really well I am sure. If I am raking in that cash I am a happy camper. Wrong business if they don't want criticism, a lot bigger people in media and arts take it and expect it.

ADD:  I found a lot of the critiques fine and intelligent, the nastiness more often was forum people going at each other. 

These people keep trash talking the devs though.  The developers are the programmers - they did an almost perfect job.  I am proud of them on behalf of the software engineering profession of which I am a part.  While the devs undoubtedly have a hand in content and want it to be great, that interest is nothing compared to how much they care about the code.  They will gladly let someone else totally dictate contact so that their program is beautiful on the inside and flawless on the outside.  Any blame needs to go to the writers, the application managers, and the producers.  (Many people have been considerate and directed their criticism at the appropriate parties rather than the devs, and their thoughtfulness is noted).

Despite all the slash-and-burn criticism, ME3 was the best game to hit the market in any genre since ME2, and that's a fact.

PS - @Bioware: MORE MEERSHEPLOO!

and that is why I idolize Brenon Holmes but want to see Mac Walters and Casey Hudson either terminated or put in a position that holds no creative influence over future games

Well i wouldn't go that far don't forget both of them have assisted in making fine games in the past. So the potential is there they only fumbled horribly with Mass Effect 3 for some reason.

they knowingly lied about many things ore release...strike 1

they hijacked the ending and BOTCHED IT then subtoy hinted the fans were too dull to understand. Strike 2

they had the chance to listen to us and fix things....they still managed to ****** people off offering a lovely middle finger 1-2 in the form of a non ending refuse option AND the non expansion of the breath scene...strike 3


 
no, I do not want them ANYWHERE NEAR anything I will buy in the future

Damn dude, you sound like you're about to explode with rage in every single post you make. Calm down. 

[AlanC9]

daecath wrote...

Basically they were rushed, had to cut a lot of corners, and the overall quality of the game, and in particular the ending, suffered for it. 

Depends on what you think the problem with the ending is, doesn't it? If your problem with the ending is the lack of the stuff that came with the EC, or the lack of lots of cutscenes showing war assets, then more resources would have helped. But if you're like drayfish, 3DandBeyond, SpamBot2000, and so forth, and have a conceptual problem with the ending, more resources wouldn't have helped.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 décembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Slayer299]

No, not at all. Igot a substandard product and I have the right to voice my criticism,
(w/o vitriol) to BW.

If I don`t say anything how can I expect BW not to repeat those mistakes in the future?

[SpamBot2000]

AlanC9 wrote...

daecath wrote...

Basically they were rushed, had to cut a lot of corners, and the overall quality of the game, and in particular the ending, suffered for it. 

Depends on what you think the problem with the ending is, doesn't it? If your problem with the ending is the lack of the stuff that came with the EC, or the lack of lots of cutscenes showing war assets, then more resources would have helped. But if you're like drayfish, 3DandBeyond, SpamBot2000, and so forth, and have a conceptual problem with the ending, more resources wouldn't have helped.

Well, there is the possibility that they ended up going with this nuclear ending solution because EA were pushing them so hard. And, given enough time, they could have come up with something not designed to collapse the whole setting. But that's something we can only speculate on.

[TheJediSaint]

I've been blunt in my criticism, but I've been careful to keep my criticism directed at the product rather than the developers.  So no, i don't feel bad about offering criticism.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 29 décembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[crimzontearz]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

hoodaticus wrote...

vivaladricas wrote...

They got paid well, really well I am sure. If I am raking in that cash I am a happy camper. Wrong business if they don't want criticism, a lot bigger people in media and arts take it and expect it.

ADD:  I found a lot of the critiques fine and intelligent, the nastiness more often was forum people going at each other. 

These people keep trash talking the devs though.  The developers are the programmers - they did an almost perfect job.  I am proud of them on behalf of the software engineering profession of which I am a part.  While the devs undoubtedly have a hand in content and want it to be great, that interest is nothing compared to how much they care about the code.  They will gladly let someone else totally dictate contact so that their program is beautiful on the inside and flawless on the outside.  Any blame needs to go to the writers, the application managers, and the producers.  (Many people have been considerate and directed their criticism at the appropriate parties rather than the devs, and their thoughtfulness is noted).

Despite all the slash-and-burn criticism, ME3 was the best game to hit the market in any genre since ME2, and that's a fact.

PS - @Bioware: MORE MEERSHEPLOO!

and that is why I idolize Brenon Holmes but want to see Mac Walters and Casey Hudson either terminated or put in a position that holds no creative influence over future games

Well i wouldn't go that far don't forget both of them have assisted in making fine games in the past. So the potential is there they only fumbled horribly with Mass Effect 3 for some reason.

they knowingly lied about many things ore release...strike 1

they hijacked the ending and BOTCHED IT then subtoy hinted the fans were too dull to understand. Strike 2

they had the chance to listen to us and fix things....they still managed to ****** people off offering a lovely middle finger 1-2 in the form of a non ending refuse option AND the non expansion of the breath scene...strike 3


 
no, I do not want them ANYWHERE NEAR anything I will buy in the future

Damn dude, you sound like you're about to explode with rage in every single post you make. Calm down. 

I will....once all hope is lost and support to ME3 is discontinued

until then I will remain as angry as the very thought of this situation makes me each time I linger upon it (and play resident evil 6 and crysis 3 to vent more frustration)

[shepskisaac]

The unfortunate truth:

[inappropriate image removed]

Just sad really.

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 29 décembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Ninja Stan]

Grubas wrote...

Sorry but bioware was really calm and though many well thought-out posts were floating around devs decided not to come out and talk. Seriously there were many offers to talk and they all have been slapped.

If BioWare "decided not to come out and talkm" how is this a "slap"? BioWare listens to feedback, but they have never promised that all feedback would be acknowledged, that they will respond to any questions, or that there is any obligation to engage in an explicit discussion with the community.

But just because they don't "come out and talk," it doesn't mean they aren't listening. It doesn't mean they hate you. It doesn't mean your ideas, feedback, or suggestions aren't good. I've seen many of the "offers to talk," and they have usually been from those who wish to accuse developers, berate them, demand an apology, or to interrogate them. That is hardly what I would call a sincere "offer to talk". And if you honestly believe that they are obligated to respond, acknowledge, or agree with you just because "you pay them" (which is patently untrue, by the way), then you have much to learn about how media and creative industries work.