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Does Anyone Else Feel Bad For Offering (Actual) Criticism? Due to BSN overall tone?


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#126
TheProtheans

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JamesFaith wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
Yes, I mean this.

Because there are big variations in them in their nature (destroyed Earth vs saved Earth is quite difference), just their visual execution is too mush similar. And there is no single word about great visual difference in this quote.


Different in what sense.
If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it, does it make a sound.


So check video Grey send me here. The differences are there and visible, there are just no long video sequences about them.

I don't need to hear great bang of falling tree, even weak distant sound is still sound. 


You're mistaken, that is the sound of Bioware asking you to buy more DLC.

#127
JamesFaith

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Greylycantrope wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
Yes, I mean this.

Because there are big variations in them in their nature (destroyed Earth vs saved Earth is quite difference), just their visual execution is too mush similar. And there is no single word about great visual difference in this quote.

No but the use of "sophitication" implies some level of detail besides a color swap and to what level stuff blows up.


You are right, it should IMPLY this, but it isn't PROMISE it and this is that weak border between real lie and statement with multiple possible interpretations.

#128
hiraeth

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.

#129
CMD-Shep

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No.
Does BW feel bad about treating us "complainers" as a bunch of entitled whining babies in the media? I don't think so. They got their money, what do they care?

#130
GreyLycanTrope

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JamesFaith wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
Yes, I mean this.

Because there are big variations in them in their nature (destroyed Earth vs saved Earth is quite difference), just their visual execution is too mush similar. And there is no single word about great visual difference in this quote.

No but the use of "sophitication" implies some level of detail besides a color swap and to what level stuff blows up.


You are right, it should IMPLY this, but it isn't PROMISE it and this is that weak border between real lie and statement with multiple possible interpretations.

Which just means the statement is misleading. I'm aware this isn't enough to call it an outright lie, but it's far from honest.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 30 décembre 2012 - 12:36 .


#131
JamesFaith

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Greylycantrope wrote...

Which just means the statement is misleading. I'm aware this isn't enough to call it an outright lie, but it's far from honest.


From your point of view probably yes, but on other hand from point of Hudson, who create them and saw them in different light with everything what stood behind their creations, it still can be honest true, because he believed in it.

But this is ethernal problem with subjective perception and interpretation of every statement more complicated then "Yes." and "No."

Modifié par JamesFaith, 30 décembre 2012 - 12:42 .


#132
Volc19

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I dislike souring someone's mood as much as the next guy, but if we don't offer criticism, they won't learn from and build off of their mistakes. If we all held our tongues about the endings, we probably wouldn't have gotten the EC. If we didn't speak out against ME2's lack of RPG mechanics we likely wouldn't have gotten the arsenal of weapons and mods we got. And I bet our outcry against things like choices having little impact, the fetchquests, the dumbed down convo wheel, and autodialogue will improve the next game.

#133
Kabooooom

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No, I love Bioware and constructive criticism is greatly needed - I hold them to a very high standard, as most of us do, because they have consistently made masterpieces. I honestly can't say that about any other game company.

"Did the endings suck? Yeah, they did. Here's x, y, z ways to make them better" - that is constructive criticism, and I am fine with that.

But then there is vitriol, mindless accusations, and the like - that is unacceptable. And then there are the Bioware apologists who think that Bioware can do no wrong, and attack people who have legitimate concerns/objections - those people irritate me the most, I think.

#134
RiptideX1090

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Look, I get where you're coming from, Stan, and I respect how hard it is for you guys to want to come out of your shell to talk when everyone is berating you.

But the fact of the matter is there's a lot of bad blood here on both sides. You have to realize if people are upset, there is probably a reason for it. I've followed the PR for this game from the start. Avidly. I scoured the net every day leading up to release for new information. And the truth of the matter is the PR leading up to this game's release was atrocious. Yeah, you can try and pin it on us not understanding what was being said, but is that really fair? I understand it can be hard, things are always changing in the development process, sometimes the right hand doesn't always know what the left is doing, and the pressure of speaking on camera or giving interviews or whatever plays a role. But that doesn't change the fact we were lied to. Maybe intentionally, maybe not. No ABC endings, the EMS scores not needing multiplayer, if I went back and really looked I imagine I could find more. And don't get me started on everything Silverman was saying. While not outright lies, they certainly weren't the things I as a long time fan wanted to hear. If you really want, I can start pulling up quotes.

But instead of pointing out each and every little thing that was said leading up to release, I'd rather address the actual issue here that is eating away at this community and its relationship with the developers. Let me put it plain, the majority of us? We love you guys, we love the work you do, the passion you put into these game, and we want, we really, really want to feel like when you say something, when you tell us something, we can trust you. We want to be able to talk to you, because what you guys have to say matters to us. I've loved Bioware for years now, and one of the coolest things about you guys for me has always been how open you are with your fanbase. I was always able to put faith that you guys would do whatever it took to make us happy, not just as consumers, but as gamers, as people who sincerely enjoy the stuff you make. An example of this was Tali. There was no doubt in my mind she wouldn't be a love interest in ME2, even a year before release. Why? Because I knew you guys were listening, you knew what those of us who liked her wanted and you delivered big time. That's what we love about you guys, not just your ability to tell stories, but your willingness to tell the stories you know WE want told. And that is flippin' awesome. I can't overstate how great I think that is.

But then ME3 rolls around. And instead of faith being rewarded, we're met with utter disappointment. The ending is a wash, I'm sorry, but it is. For a lot of reasons. Gone are the themes carrying the entire story forward, of Victory through Sacrifice, gone is all that unity you were feeling in getting all these people and aliens to work together, and it's replaced by some absurd mix between the Matrix and Dues Ex, all explained by a character that shows up at the last minute who no one in their right mind would trust. We were left crushed, Shepard is dead in almost every ending, and shown to be gasping for breath in the rubble of the best, and no matter what the relays are destroyed, and the galaxy, the universe you made that we loved so much was torn apart. And that felt so... spiteful. It felt like someone was slapping us in the face, spitting on all our faith and trust. It wasn't our story anymore, it wasn't even yours, in a way. Because you took all those things you built up, all this unifying of all these races and instead of us getting a big payoff at the end where the galaxy has been shaped by our choices, you literally blew the universe up in our face.

So, left crushed and disheartened, what were we supposed to do? We started going back, trying to figure out where you went wrong, and all the dishonesty and miscommunication or what have you starts coming out. And it just feels like more of a slap in the face when you're told there's not going to be any ABC endings and that's what we're given, that we don't need Multiplayer to have even the bare hope of our Shepards living, but we do.

Granted, the EC fixes some of these glaring issues, but it doesn't alleviate all of them. Synthesis makes no damn sense, the Catalyst's logic is circular and has been disproven by Shepard, it's still jarring and people don't like it. At least you conceded not letting the galaxy explode, so that's something, I suppose, but it's still jarring. There is a reason we're upset about these things, there's a reason we're depressed, not just in the state of the galaxy in the original cut, but by the fact you guys even let it come to that. You left us feeling like crap, with little to no explanation. The EC alleviates some of the pressure on the in-game front (though in my opinion not nearly enough), but the problem remains that out of game there's still a gaping wound between us and you. You can argue that the EC was enough of an admission of guilt and desire for amends, and I respect that, but I disagree with it. The EC was just closer to what we always wanted from you to begin with, you giving us a token of what was promised and not ending everything on a completely sour note. And now there's this disconnect, now we're freaking out, flinging all this criticism at you because we have no idea if in the future you're actually listening to us, or if you are, what you're listening to.

Look, I want there to be a Mass Effect 4. And I want it to be something we make together. Yes, you guys are the devs, its your project, and I respect that completely, but the reason we like you guys so much is because it's always felt like we had a hand in whatever was being made. It wasn't about your "artistic integrity," it always felt like you guys would toss that out the window if it made us happy, it wasn't about your pride, it was about telling us a story and letting us be a part of it, both as Shepard and as fans, both in the final product and in making it. But now there's all this bad blood, all this doubt, we're worried it isn't about that anymore. That it's more about you telling the story you want and less about telling the story we all want. So we criticize, we tell you what we think is wrong, and regrettably some people are still so upset they can't do this in a civil, or even often times rational manner. And then you all feel like we're signalling you out and attacking you. Granted, I have no illusions to the contrary, you do get attacked, and it makes me sad that's what it's come to.

Because ultimately, and I think I speak for most people here, when it comes down to it, I don't want there to be this divide. I want Casey and Mac to be able to sit down and actually talk about their decisions and what they've learned from all this. I dont' want to just be told you're listening, yes, I want you to acknowledge us, I want us to be able to feel like we can trust you again. I know, I know, actions speak louder than words, you'd rather show us, such as with the EC, and with the upcoming Mass Effect game, you'd rather show us the improvement, because talking about it isn't going to change anything.

But it's not just about vocalizing that you've improved or that you're going to do better next time, it's not about promising us things are going to work out. It's about making us feel like we used to, back before ME3, back when it felt like this was something we were in together. If you guys start opening more direct lines of communication and start speaking more openly with us, yeah, it's going to be ugly. There will always be those people who are just going to bash and ridicule you. But not all of us. I dont' want the endings to be something we can't talk about, nor the bad PR or whatever. I want us all to just be able to acknowledge there's been some big mistakes on both sides and that we can move on from it, so you can get back to making games with clear heads without being afraid of your own forums for fear of being burned at the cross when you post and so we can feel like the stories and universe we love so much, that we feel like we had a hand in crafting even if from afar is in good hands.

Anyway, that's just how I feel. There's a divide here, and I want it mended. Because you guys feeling like crap and us feeling like crap doesn't leave anyone happy. But I can't make you guys open up, no more than I can make some of my more... vocal and less intelligent compatriots pipe down. I just hope, going forward, we can get back to that good place we were at before, where it wasn't about artistically blowing up the universe we love and failing to measure up to promises and hype, and more about just making something at the end of the day we can all love and enjoy.

I don't expect a reply to this. Hell, I don't expect you to even read it. Either way, I just want this tenseness to end. I want to come on these forums and be excited by the newest piece of information to come out, not worried by the content or saddened that everyone else feels worried about it, too.

Anyway, if you did read through all this, thanks for your time, in any event.

#135
rapscallioness

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Ninja Stan wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

So hurt, angry people are just plain "awful", while the people who hurt and angered them deserve nothing but meek adoration? 

That's not the relationship you have with the developers. BioWare has created a game to be sold, and you bought it. BioWare did not go to your house and kick your puppy or de-alphabetize your DVDs. They released a product for commercial sale, period. There is nothing personal about that.

And your humble entreaties to the devs go unanswered only because those bad people keep meddling?

Again, that's not the relationship you have with the developers. They are not your slaves, your employeeds, your buddies, or any other relationship that obligates them to answer your "humble entreaties." They might do so, because they do love the community and, as evidenced by dev participation in the forum pre-release, have been more intimately involved in discussions before. But that doesn't mean they will always be that involved, or that they are forced to be involved. You will likely see more dev involvement in the community once future games are announced and discussed.

In the meantime, you might find a dev willing to discuss game issues on their personal social media. But once again, they are under no obligation to do so.


Uh, well first of all--that "humble entreaties" thing Spambot was saying was a sarcastic remark to the OP.


As far as everything else...hey, don't worry. It's become more than clear that ME/BW are not our "buddies" . You're absolutely right. It's just business, Baby.  And eff us if we don't like it.

I also understand now that the dev participation in the forum pre release stage was just business.

So, obviously, you all can understand when ppl complain and don't speak to you like special snowflakes..hey, it's nothing personal. Right? If they feel like they got a lil bit of the bait and switch and complain--don't take it personal. It's just business, too.

Because, I mean really, it was personal before. People trusted you. Not the company. Not the friggin' corporation. But the people that made up that company.

But don't worry-- it's just business now.  You're not obligated to do nothin'. Least of all give a damn. And neither are we.

#136
Grubas

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Im glad Stan isnt screening questions like bw does on conventions, but sadly he cant tell us more then we already know.

#137
Hey

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I was embarrassed for how we handled ourselves initially, yes.
We were just addicted to awesome and to go cold turkey like that was... it was rough.

It just means we were into it tho...

#138
CronoDragoon

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Personally I found all the memes and such that popped up to be hilarious (so long as they didn't flame any specific people), and there were a lot of well-thought out essays on why people disliked the endings after release.

Criticism itself is not bad in this situation. But that which comes attached with the criticism can be bad, such as tone, hyperbole, and a host of unproductive reactions.

Speaking to this debate on pre-release comments: I think BioWare felt relatively safe making comments and promises that - while might not be lies in the strict sense of the word - were nevertheless dishonest in their implications. I think to some extent they got caught up in the excitement of their own hype. It doesn't make them evil or malicious, but it does mean they made a mistake doing so. I think if they had a do-over they'd phrase things differently, or more likely take the route that the DA team is taking now, which is a lot of "show when it's ready" instead of "tell".

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 30 décembre 2012 - 07:30 .


#139
Ninja Stan

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I'd like to remind everyone that I am not currently a BioWare employee. From some of the comments, it appears some people believe that I still work for the company.

#140
Ninja Stan

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RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip well thought out and well presented quote*

I think my preference would be for more game discussion to be as well thought out and well presented as your post is, Riptide. That certainly is a lot easier to read than "BIOWARE IS INCOMPETENT AND LAZY AND SHOULD BE FIRED!" and "BIOWER RUINED GAMES FOREVARRRRRR!" I understand that people get frustrated and disappointed with things they're passionate about, like videogames, but we don't have to let our anger and frustration turn us into children wailing because Mom wouldn't buy us the sugary cereal we wanted.

I've often said: we can disagree with each other withour resorting to childish behaviour.

The community demonstrating that they are more interested in civilized discourse and debate makes the BSN a more fun, safer, and better place to talk about the games you're all passionate about. And having a place where game discussion is fun, safe, and intelligent encourages everyone, probably even devs, to participate. I've been doing my part as Moderator to try and keep this place fun, civil, and safe. If all y'all can do likewise, or at least can try and do likewise, we all benefit. :)

#141
CronoDragoon

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RiptideX1090 wrote...

Anyway, that's just how I feel. There's a divide here, and I want it mended.


Good post, but I want to expand on what you said that "the community" doesn't want this divide to exist. To some extent this is true, but those who created the divide and continue to be harsh towards the other side don't want to mend the divide so much as conquer it. For them, the divide will only disappear if they feel they have won, or proven their point at everyone else's expense. In this sense, they don't really want to improve relationships at all.

But it's great that there are also a lot of people who don't like the endings like you who are willing to at least form rational paragraphs expressing your view. It might feel like your post is being lost but it really does only help to improve things around here.

#142
Hey

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Ninja Stan is awesome!
Who's with me!? HUH!

#143
Jadebaby

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crimzontearz wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Asfar as blatant lies were made during the prerelease PR blitz i'm kinda twofold. Yes alot of remarks made back then were fishy but whether that was actually lying or getting caught up in their own PR hype is something i always wondered. Casey and co popped up everywhere trying too squeeze in a hot quote too get hype going especially the week before release and the most damning statements were made in that time period.

Personally i had alot more problems with Bioware's silence concerning certain features. Especially the face-import not working. For such an important and defining feature too blatantly not work at release was bad enough but Bioware stayed silent for weeks. That and the whole MP needed or not needed discussion was imo an even bigger farce then whether or not people actually lied.

wanna have a laugh? bioware employees were not allowed to import their characters at work so they would have never known


This is a joke yea?

#144
RocketManSR2

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This topic just has us all going round & round again. This whole situation sucks. Stan, let me ask you this, did you want a true reunion for Shepard and the surviving members of his team? I know I did. I said as much many times leading up to release. Suffice to say, I was crushed. In that sticky that was posted asking what we would like to see in the EC, a lot of replies included at least something about a proper reunion being included. I had hope again. I really thought that BioWare would listen and expand on the breath scene. I was shocked and disappointed that the scene was left completely untouched. BioWare keeps telling us that they are listening and want our input, but that is not the impression I got from that example.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:11 .


#145
Jadebaby

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rapscallioness wrote...
As far as everything else...hey, don't worry. It's become more than clear that ME/BW are not our "buddies" . You're absolutely right. It's just business, Baby.  And eff us if we don't like it.

I also understand now that the dev participation in the forum pre release stage was just business.

So, obviously, you all can understand when ppl complain and don't speak to you like special snowflakes..hey, it's nothing personal. Right? If they feel like they got a lil bit of the bait and switch and complain--don't take it personal. It's just business, too.

Because, I mean really, it was personal before. People trusted you. Not the company. Not the friggin' corporation. But the people that made up that company.

But don't worry-- it's just business now.  You're not obligated to do nothin'. Least of all give a damn. And neither are we.


There's a lot of truth in this post, some people want it both ways.

#146
Ninja Stan

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

This topic just has us all going round & round again. This whole situation sucks. Stan, let me ask you this, did you want a true reunion for Shepard and the surviving members of his team? Like what we got at the end of the first 2. In that sticky that was posted asking what we would like to see in the EC, a lot of replies included at least something about a proper reunion being included. I had hope again. I really thought that BioWare would listen and expand on the breath scene. I was shocked and disappointed that the scene was left completely untouched. BioWare keeps telling us that they are listening and want our input, but that is not the impression I got from that example.

As always, listening to input doesn't necessarily mean that BioWare will agree with or immediately implement any feedback they get. Remember that, in addition that "lot of replies," there were probably tons of other replies suggestion other things. I always ask folks: if one person is requesting feature X, and another is requesting not X, but Y, whichever way BioWare goes, someone is going to be disappointed. Now expand that into the dozens or hundreds of suggestions, some of them mutually exclusive, and you'll begin to see how difficult it would be to try and please everyone.

BioWare may take a lot of feedback into consideration, but you must also remember that they have their own ideas about the game as well. Ideally, they'd want to take the general consensus of what people are asking (maybe not specific requests, but the gist of what people are asking for) and be able to mesh it with their own ideas for the game. But if you're thinking that BioWare reads a forum, sees a certain post and says at the next creative meeting "Hey, UserX had a great idea! Let's do that!", I'm afraid you're going to be sorely disappointed.

#147
RocketManSR2

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Festae9 wrote...

Ninja Stan is awesome!
Who's with me!? HUH!


It's awesome to have anybody talk to us, BioWare tag or not. :lol:

#148
RocketManSR2

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Ninja Stan wrote...
As always, listening to input doesn't necessarily mean that BioWare will agree with or immediately implement any feedback they get. Remember that, in addition that "lot of replies," there were probably tons of other replies suggestion other things. I always ask folks: if one person is requesting feature X, and another is requesting not X, but Y, whichever way BioWare goes, someone is going to be disappointed. Now expand that into the dozens or hundreds of suggestions, some of them mutually exclusive, and you'll begin to see how difficult it would be to try and please everyone.

BioWare may take a lot of feedback into consideration, but you must also remember that they have their own ideas about the game as well. Ideally, they'd want to take the general consensus of what people are asking (maybe not specific requests, but the gist of what people are asking for) and be able to mesh it with their own ideas for the game. But if you're thinking that BioWare reads a forum, sees a certain post and says at the next creative meeting "Hey, UserX had a great idea! Let's do that!", I'm afraid you're going to be sorely disappointed.


Yea, I know. I just wanted to feel good after saving the galaxy like the first 2. I did not. I don't want to feel that empty sensation after playing a game ever again.

- I guess I was thinking the # of times something is suggested would make it stand out more and catch someone's attention who would relay it to the team.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:21 .


#149
AlanC9

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Mdoggy1214 wrote...
Or when Mac Walters said the Rachni's presence would have huge consequences in ME3, and would play a part in the final battle?

(snip)

"Well....TECHNICALLY the Rachni did play a part in the final battle because they helped a bit in building the Crucible, which was a device that was used in the final battle."


I believe the correct technicality there is that the final mission has a bunch of Ravagers in it. The quote doesn't actually say that the player's choice will have any effect on the ending.

#150
Ninja Stan

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RocketManSR2 wrote...

- I guess I was thinking the # of times something is suggested would make it stand out more and catch someone's attention who would relay it to the team.

You'd be surprised at what the dev team picks up from the community and other feedback, and it takes many, many meetings and creative sessions to develop a game's story, so chances are good that some of that people have been clamouring for are in there somewhere, in some form. :)