435 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

RocketManSR2 wrote...
In that sticky that was posted asking what we would like to see in the EC, a lot of replies included at least something about a proper reunion being included.

Are you talking  about the "Yes, we are listening" thread? I've been meaning to have another look at that one since people have been bringing it up lately, but I'm not sure which thread they're talking about.

[Hey]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

Ninja Stan is awesome!
Who's with me!? HUH!

It's awesome to have anybody talk to us, BioWare tag or not.

  no doubt...

[Robhuzz]

Why would I feel bad? They're showing they're a corporate entity with their day 1 dlc, mass marketing and media hyping, pre release lies to up sales. They're showing that they're in this business to make a product then sell it for as much money as possible. Nothing more. I as a customer have paid a lot of money for their product and so I expect a quality product and I have the right to criticize them when their product doesn't live up to expectations, which in this case it certainly didn't.

Now ME3 has A LOT more problems than just the ending but when trying to criticize the ending, I find it's just SO bad, SO ridiculous, that there's no nice way to put it. 'It's pure garbage', 'invalidates the entire trilogy', 'goes against everything Shepard stands for', 'makes absolutely no sense' and 'space magic' about cover it.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:30 .

[AlanC9]

Robhuzz wrote...
They're showing that they're in this business to make a product then sell it for as much money as possible

 When I'm working I try to get as much money as possible for my work too. You don't?

I guess you're trying to say that the game should have been made more expensively because..... reasons? More money would maybe have given us the EC stuff in the initial release, yep. I don't see how it would fix any of your other problems, assuming I'm remembering your problems right. (Day 1 DLC is something you're just going to have to learn to deal with unless you can convince gamers to stop buying it -- a bigger budget doesn't make doing that any less desirable)

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:37 .

[RocketManSR2]

AlanC9 wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...
In that sticky that was posted asking what we would like to see in the EC, a lot of replies included at least something about a proper reunion being included.

Are you talking  about the "Yes, we are listening" thread? I've been meaning to have another look at that one since people have been bringing it up lately, but I'm not sure which thread they're talking about.

It might have bitten the dust by now, but it was a sticky in the spoiler forum asking players what they would like to see in the EC. I think Jessica Merizan (sp?) started it. There were a very large # of suggestions, both big and small. Frome the absurd (redo the whole game) to the more reasonable (a reunion like 1 & 2 had ). A lot of long posts, too. I understand that nobody on the team had the time to sit there and sort through them, but somebody should have been running a "most wanted" checklist to bring to the rest of the team to save time.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[RocketManSR2]

AlanC9 wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...
In that sticky that was posted asking what we would like to see in the EC, a lot of replies included at least something about a proper reunion being included.

Are you talking  about the "Yes, we are listening" thread? I've been meaning to have another look at that one since people have been bringing it up lately, but I'm not sure which thread they're talking about.

Here is the "We Are Listening" topic, all 900+ pages

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9992961

I can't find the Extended Cut suggestion topic.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:55 .

[Fiddles dee dee]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...
In that sticky that was posted asking what we would like to see in the EC, a lot of replies included at least something about a proper reunion being included.

Are you talking  about the "Yes, we are listening" thread? I've been meaning to have another look at that one since people have been bringing it up lately, but I'm not sure which thread they're talking about.

It might have bitten the dust by now, but it was a sticky in the spoiler forum asking players what they would like to see in the EC. I think Jessica Merizan (sp?) started it. There were a very large # of suggestions, both big and small. Frome the absurd (redo the whole game) to the more reasonable (a reunion like 1 & 2 had ). A lot of long posts, too. I understand that nobody on the team had the time to sit there and sort through them, but somebody should have been running a "most wanted" checklist to bring to the rest of the team to save time.

I think that one has been taken down, especially after it hit 1000 responses in less than three days (edit: corrected ).

I'm guess the criticism was too varied and on too many levels in order for it to be addressed fully within the necessary timeframe and that instead the team picked the three things they felt fans needed addressing immediately as well as setting the boundaries on it. Such as no reunion, no text screens and no resolution to the major plot points, instead they decided to stick with justifying the endings. On reflection might have helped my experience marginally, it just was not what I was looking for in the EC.

Modifié par Fiddles dee dee, 30 décembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[The Devlish Redhead]

Mr.House wrote...

Nope. If I think something is lacking, sucks, needed more work or is just trash I will criticize it. They are a company making a product that consumers buy.

For me this.

If I can't buy a product and find things with it that I do not like or want, I thinkl a bit if criticism is fair and just. It's not like they are making these products for the fun of it they're making nice profits so why shouldn't we say what is on our minds?

As for games I think if I buy a game I should be able to play it in any manner, or way I see fit to my enjoyment. This includes modding, hacking, or tweaking the game to do what I wish.

[RocketManSR2]

Screw it, they've heard it all by now. I'm tired of it.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 30 décembre 2012 - 09:19 .

[Galbrant]

No, OP. It's our duty as consumers to provide constructive criticism. Otherwise they will see we enjoy substandard products and continue to not put in any real effort.

[RiptideX1090]

Ninja Stan wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip well thought out and well presented quote*

I think my preference would be for more game discussion to be as well thought out and well presented as your post is, Riptide. That certainly is a lot easier to read than "BIOWARE IS INCOMPETENT AND LAZY AND SHOULD BE FIRED!" and "BIOWER RUINED GAMES FOREVARRRRRR!" I understand that people get frustrated and disappointed with things they're passionate about, like videogames, but we don't have to let our anger and frustration turn us into children wailing because Mom wouldn't buy us the sugary cereal we wanted.

I've often said: we can disagree with each other withour resorting to childish behaviour.

The community demonstrating that they are more interested in civilized discourse and debate makes the BSN a more fun, safer, and better place to talk about the games you're all passionate about. And having a place where game discussion is fun, safe, and intelligent encourages everyone, probably even devs, to participate. I've been doing my part as Moderator to try and keep this place fun, civil, and safe. If all y'all can do likewise, or at least can try and do likewise, we all benefit.

I'm glad to see my post did not get drowned out under the weight of the forums, and more so that you took the time to both read it an respond to it. I want you to know I appreciate it, Stan.

And I completely agree. Look, when the endings first got leaked, I will be the first to admit I was crushed, and as a result, I was angry. All the way up until I got the game and then beat it, I was furious. I'm a tempermental person, There were a few weeks I was pretty damn upset at the whole thing, and I occasionally slip back into that, such as with the retroactive foreshadowing of the Catalyst in Leviathan (I'm sorry, but it just feels so cheap, I get why it was implemented, but it only serves to enforce how poorly handled the Catalyst's character and role are). There was a lot of raw emotion flying around at release and for some time after. We we angry and disappointed, which in turn, I am very sure, led to a great deal of hurt on your guys' end as well. And I own my part in that. But the time for anger has long passed. The time to be hurt at that anger has passed. It's time to move forward. It is what it is, and for things to pan out, you guys need clear heads and to be able to communicate with us, and we need to be supportive. Critical, but supportive. And that's not going to be easy for anyone. I'm an artist, if something I spent two years on got the reaction ME3 did, I'd be devastated. Especially if my reputation among my fans had been as tarnished as Casey and Mac's have become. Likewise, we're still bitter about the whole thing. And you have to remember, there are those of us who still aren't satified or happy, even with the EC. Shepard's dying gasp isn't enough for us, Synthesis still doesn't make sense and the Catalyst is still infuriating. We have a lot of questions, which sadly have gone unanswered. It leads to festering.

So, if things are going to get better, there needs to be a group effort here. You guys need to talk to us, and I mean really talk to us. Yes, you are going to have to face those people who are just mean and spiteful, but that's part of it. In turn, we need to accept we're not going to get everything we want all the time. And there will be times we are disappointed. But again, that's part of it. It's give and take, it's never going to be perfect, and it's going to be hard no matter how you slice it. But I really want things to pan out. Maybe there needs to be more time before that can happen. Maybe it won't be until we start seeing trailers for the next game that you guys won't feel comfortable talking about it with us. Again, I get the whole 'show don't tell' mindset. But I hope at some point you do. I know you don't work at Bioware anymore, Stan, and I don't know how much you keep in touch with people from there, but I hope they know not all of us hate them. And even though some of us say we do, it's just us being immature or venting. If we really hated you, we wouldn't be here, we wouln't care enough to snap in the first place. And I hope, I really hope all of us going forward can keep cooler heads.

Because Bioware has more stories to tell. And I want to be a part of those stories. We all do. And I want the guys writing them to understand where they went wrong in the past and how to fix it. There are a lot of people here who suggest things that have no idea what they're talking about, and it's a right pain wading through that, I know. But there are people here with good ideas, too. I just don't want to see your wounded pride and egos closing you off from that, from us, nor our vitriol and despair pushing you away. As I said, we all need to work to move things forward to prevent that from happening. I can't make my compatriots stop screaming in all caps, and I can't make you guys want to talk to us, but I hope those things change in the future. I really do. I'm trying to do my part, I'm trying to be a part of that solution, and so are other people, but those of us who are can't do it alone, either.

[SpamBot2000]

Ninja Stan wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

So hurt, angry people are just plain "awful", while the people who hurt and angered them deserve nothing but meek adoration? 

That's not the relationship you have with the developers. BioWare has created a game to be sold, and you bought it. BioWare did not go to your house and kick your puppy or de-alphabetize your DVDs. They released a product for commercial sale, period. There is nothing personal about that.

And your humble entreaties to the devs go unanswered only because those bad people keep meddling?

Again, that's not the relationship you have with the developers. They are not your slaves, your employeeds, your buddies, or any other relationship that obligates them to answer your "humble entreaties." They might do so, because they do love the community and, as evidenced by dev participation in the forum pre-release, have been more intimately involved in discussions before. But that doesn't mean they will always be that involved, or that they are forced to be involved. You will likely see more dev involvement in the community once future games are announced and discussed.

In the meantime, you might find a dev willing to discuss game issues on their personal social media. But once again, they are under no obligation to do so.

Well, thanks for the reply Stan, but you don't really have to lecture me about the producer-consumer relationship. I was merely replying to the OP of this thread. I personally have few illusions about Electronic Arts Inc. And I try to stay away from the 'personal social media' of the developers out of a vestigial sense of decency.

Having said that, this is the proper forum for criticism of Mass Effect 3, and while I see little point in asking for some Q/A session with the developers, I do think the decent AND smart thing for BioWare to do would be to finally acknowledge the substance of much of the criticism for this game. We are all aware of the spin they put into things before the EC, which only led to the EC being a wasted opportunity as far as many, many people are concerned. "People are just sad because the game ended. Or they just don't understand our super smart ending. Yo dawgs, we put more lines in to explain that the holokid wanted to save organics from synthetics, so THAT'S why he created killer synthetics to kill organics. Makes total sense if you're intelligent." Oh really?

The acknowledging of the problems would go something like this: "We understand many people are dissatisfied with the ending concept because they view it as the suicide of their character, mandated by the leader of genocidal space monsters in order to fulfill their plan. We get it now." That would signal to a lot of frustrated people that their concerns have been noted and need not be repeated again and again. And frankly I don't see doing that taxing BW's resources to any unreasonable degree.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 30 décembre 2012 - 09:46 .

[shodiswe]

Some of it is excessive, especialy the name calling. However there were a lot of concerns from the fans and I think a lot of them were justified. Also, in some cases one of several possible solutions could have improved the product a lot without being very demanding.

I do think the general oppinion of the people posting has gotten through though, people wanted a more fulfilling ending. More drama, a more interactive story, player agency, and warassets to show since most of the series was about warning and bringing the galaxy together to fight as one for their survival.

Personaly I think the parts after Chronus station are the parts that needed/needs a brush up.

The priority earth London mission was very static and simply a horde mode with two missiles being fired. There were good parts in it but at the same time a lot was lacking or could have been done better or more meaningful. A lot of the alien forces are probably still defending their homeworlds, but it would have been nice to give them some more representation. And that turret event in the FOB, it could have been given an objective, maybe a survivor from the transport with critical intel that could save one of your warassets, with a few different possibilities given depending on what you managed to recruit. And ofcourse the possibility of failing them! If what you do makes a difference then it adds to the experience, a soldier was standing there, why was Shepard needed to man the gun if it was just a random attack of a few reaper trooper level grunts probing the defences. Totaly harmless. Adding action in all that running around and talkint? Good idea, but they could have made it interesting!

The EC did fix the catalyst conversation somewhat and that was one of my biggest problems with the ending, it simply didn't make sense. Now it, kind of does make some weird sense, least Shepard is showing some reluctance and distrust towards the Catalyst.
Because how can one trust a being that has been known to decieve people and spread corruption. AKA indoctrination.
I would love to see some slight modifications to the London mission based on future DLC's, to add more life to it. Adding those new warassets could add a new little side event in that mission, maybe fix the boring turret mission and make it more interesting! Maybe a few more aliens at the FoB.
Maybe some friendly troops moving in behind you to secure captured areas. Krogans, Turians, Asari, Geth. Their function would have been to stop Reaperforces from comming in and flanking you from behind.
The last thought was mostly eye candy to make the battlefield seem less dead and empty.
Personaly I would have loved to to have one or two "killable" allies who can hurt the enemies even if their weapons are of the most common and inexpenive sort, like Avengers and Predators. Never been done in ME though.
This is one of the things I did like in Quake 4, allies that could die in normal combat and the challenge of trying to keep them alive even if they were quite hopeless.
I would expect them to be holed up around covers most of the time though. And maybe a new set of them in each area you explore.
Perhaps have them rezable like in the Multiplayer where you can run up there and revive people, but with a timer like in Multiplayer, and they expire if you arn't fast enough, and they cost you medigel! Do you help those hopeless lvl 1 or lvl 5 Soldiers or whatever they are? or do you keep your medigel for when you need it?
There might be system issues with adding them though.

Modifié par shodiswe, 30 décembre 2012 - 09:59 .

[TheProtheans]

AdelaideJohn1967 wrote...
It's not like they are making these products for the fun of it they're making nice profits so why shouldn't we say what is on our minds?

Exactly, maybe if these products were free then I would not criticize them.
This is captialism, deal with it.

[Hey]

TheProtheans wrote...

AdelaideJohn1967 wrote...
It's not like they are making these products for the fun of it they're making nice profits so why shouldn't we say what is on our minds?

Exactly, maybe if these products were free then I would not criticize them.
This is captialism, deal with it.

capitalism enables you to be a dick head?

[res27772]

StElmo wrote...
Does Anyone Else Feel Bad For Offering Criticism?

No... I paid for the game, so I, like everyone else, am entitled to express my opinion about it, be that positive or negative.

[Dean_the_Young]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I don't feel bad for calling it like I see it.

JamesFaith wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
No ABC endings.

Full version of quote is:

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them." - Casey Hudson

And as I few times said, this can be easily intepreted that number of ending and their quality isn't set in stone for everyone and that it would depend on every playthrough, which is true, because not everyone got Synthetis and they are more variations of Destroy.

That "no ABC ending" is just simplified version losing its former meaning.

A lot more variation and sophistication you say? I don't see it. Or do you mean destory has 3 control 2 and synthesis 1 varient?

There's that, but then there are the other ending states as well. Quarians or Geth? Genophage cured or not? Who's alive, and who's dead?

How you define the ending is important for addressing that quote. DAO arguably only had two endings (either the Warden died, or the Warden didn't), but a large number of ending variations that changed context (who died to kill the Archdemon, Old God Baby, the various Big Decisions, and the Epilogue Slides).

[Dean_the_Young]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Having said that, this is the proper forum for criticism of Mass Effect 3, and while I see little point in asking for some Q/A session with the developers, I do think the decent AND smart thing for BioWare to do would be to finally acknowledge the substance of much of the criticism for this game. We are all aware of the spin they put into things before the EC, which only led to the EC being a wasted opportunity as far as many, many people are concerned. "People are just sad because the game ended. Or they just don't understand our super smart ending. Yo dawgs, we put more lines in to explain that the holokid wanted to save organics from synthetics, so THAT'S why he created killer synthetics to kill organics. Makes total sense if you're intelligent." Oh really?

Not really, since you're applying a strawman position to them. You could also put it as 'Part of why people were disappointed was because we were too vague with the Catalyst's explanation, so let's elaborate a bit more without going too into the weeds. It won't please people who fundamentally disagree with the Catalyst's existence or the decisions, but this is the story we want to tell and hopefully most will accept it.'

Since a good number of people did feel the EC was much better and the uproar did calm a great deal, that would probably be a more likely rational.



But, honestly, I can't see how you wouldn't recognize the EC changes as acknowledgements for the substances of many criticisms: pretty much everything that was added was in response to someone's complaint. They wouldn't have made the EC at all if they didn't think there was merit to changes, and the changes they did make were in response to various strong themes of complaints with substance: even the stupid changes, like the whole evac scene, was in response to protests as to how the squadmates got into space and allowing a final goodbye with LI's. The list goes on: the Crucible options got a bit more explanation to be clearer, Shepard received more dialogue to present views to the Catalyst's talk, a Refuse option even if it didn't result in victory was added, the reason why Joker went to FTL was added in, the immediate Crucible effects and relay destruction were tweaked to underline that the galaxy was not becoming an inhospitable wasteland, and the Normandy was made to take off to placate those people who ignored the whole 'we survived to the dawn of a new day on Eden' imagery for the 'everyone's going to starve to death/start an inbred colony!'

Just because they didn't give everyone what they, personally, wanted doesn't mean they haven't acknowledged substance behind criticisms. Their actions show it. Their post-release comments never denied it.

Honestly, I feel that some people who make this claim (not you in particular) are more interested in Bioware groveling for forgiveness (which is not coming any time soon) than in any recognition of flaws (which has already been done).

[Massa FX]

Of course hardcore trolls will h8 no matter what.

Note: The ME3 forums is the first and only forum I actively participate in. Even DA2 didn't inspire me to post feedback. But Shepard is special. If my criticism helps shape future Bioware end game design decisions, I'm a happy player.

[Ieldra]

OP:
I think almost all of the criticism I offered was constructive, reasonable in tone or an honest expression of emotions without insulting anyone. For that I don't feel bad at all.

Also, I have often questioned or denied Mac Walters' competence as a science fiction writer on grounds of the horrible and nonsensical comic book science in parts of the main plot, especially the endings of ME2 and ME3. While I'm not really sure how appropriate that is, I maintain that criticism. I'm ready to rescind it if he comes out and says which thoughts went into those parts of the ending, if I find them satisfying as SF concepts.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 décembre 2012 - 12:58 .

[Ameno Xiel]

I think I said at one stage of my rage that I would boycott Bioware if they didn't "fix" the ending. At this point in time, yeah, I was at my all time low in concern of video games.

Since then I bought DA1+2 and all the aviable DLC's for ME3. 

Am I a weak minded person who doesn't stand by his words because of that or just a dedicated fan like the guys who rage against their favorite football (/soccer *snicker*) club because they moved down but sit at the next game nonetheless and scream and curse at "their" team to get it together?

Do I regret my critsicm? Hell no! The way I did it sometimes? Hell yes!

I agree only partially with things said in this thread. Like that Bioware hasn't "any obligation to engage in an explicit discussion with the community".
 I'm sorry Stan but that is the wrong way to do things. Please don't be offended but this is Biowares official forum and not a game show called "what we wish" for the Devs.

It has to be a two way street. Always has been, always will be. The output can never equal the input. That's impossible. But nearly complete silence for months?

For example:

After one simple question of "wanting to hear fan's ideas on a new mass effect game" was answered with an amazing number of 95(still counting) pages full of input Bioware can't for the love of it show some common courtesy and answer one post full of community gathered questions on the current game in another thread? (I believe one of Elmos too)

And for the ones that will jump at the chance to point out that the way we behaved after the release is the reason of Biowares silence let me give you another example:

 Why do I like Halle Barry? I can assure you not because of her films or the way she looks. No. It's because she showed up for the Oscar AND the Raspberry Award. 

"If you could not be a good looser, then there's no way you could be a good winner. If you weren't able to take criticism than you were not worthy of taking praise."

Modifié par Ameno Xiel, 30 décembre 2012 - 01:08 .

[Robhuzz]

AlanC9 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...
They're showing that they're in this business to make a product then sell it for as much money as possible

 When I'm working I try to get as much money as possible for my work too. You don't?

I guess you're trying to say that the game should have been made more expensively because..... reasons? More money would maybe have given us the EC stuff in the initial release, yep. I don't see how it would fix any of your other problems, assuming I'm remembering your problems right. (Day 1 DLC is something you're just going to have to learn to deal with unless you can convince gamers to stop buying it -- a bigger budget doesn't make doing that any less desirable)

Making money is important since it allows us to live a proper life. There's a difference between wanting to create a good product that people will want to buy and thus generate profits and having 'max profits' at the top of your priorities list though. Below 'game quality', 'ethics' and 'customer satisfaction' in fact. Thus my comment on focussing so much on mass marketing and the media circus since they clearly didn't put the focus on game quality with ME3

I realize I wasn't too clear about my point though. Apologies. 

I was referring to the entire 'art' argument that bioware started using after the debacle to get off the hook. In my book you're either in this business purely for the money (EA/corporations) or you're making a living on something that you love doing and clearly put your best foot forward (Indie devs for example but this amounts to pretty much every entrepeneur).

What about bioware? At one time they're claiming to be a business first and foremost (day 1 dlc that was clearly ripped from the game to be sold seperately for extra profits - poor show and totally unacceptable. I do not know why people even put up with this tbh) and then when they feel like it they're 'artists' that should showhow exclude them from criticism (particularly about the ending)

[Forsythia]

No, not at all. They deserve the criticism. Worst part is the way they handled the issues people had. The condescending tone about those who didn't like the ending simply not understanding it for one.

Then there's the issue with the multiplayer requirement for the best ending. People were very quick with their calculations of the available war assets, proving that the required EMS could not be achieved in singleplayer alone. Then we're told we are wrong, with months of silence. Then with some DLC, we finally get acknowlegdement that we were right all along. 'It was just a bug'. Yeah right, it was a way to force people to play multiplayer. Wether the multiplayer is fun or not is not the issue, we were told right from the beginning that it was completely optional.

Any company treating their customers like that deserves to be criticised.

[Wulfram]

I more feel guilty about not offering enough praise. The only time I say good things about games seems to be when I'm criticising other people criticism as invalid.

[RukiaKuchki]

I don't think anyone has ever said that you can't criticize Bioware and Mass Effect 3, because anything out there in a public forum is open to criticism, whether you've paid for it or not. Whether you are positive or negative, calm or crazy, is up to you. Bioware, like anyone in a creative business, have thick skins are they are more than capable of differentiating genuine criticism that can help them grow as a company, from immature posturing. 

I think this discussion has evolved though, taking into account Ninja Stan's posts. It's very clear from the comments here that a lot of people on the BSN have over-personalized their relationship with Bioware. They see the fact that because they have bought a game that they've spent many hours on, and they have occasionaly conversed with developers on the BSN, they have some degree of control on the company and its creative processes. Case in point - people demanding Casey and Mac's resignation because of the ending. People demanding changes to give them the ending they want. People demanding the developers explain themselves. This is just laughable! Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? Who are you to dictate to a company? You are consumers, not creators or shareholders. No one is forcing you to buy or like a product. You feel horrendouely let down by a product? Simple, vote with your wallet and don't but it again. In fact, apart from whining to all of your friends and incessantly making negative posts on every forum out there, this is all you can do. 

Modifié par RukiaKuchki, 30 décembre 2012 - 02:48 .