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Does Anyone Else Feel Bad For Offering (Actual) Criticism? Due to BSN overall tone?


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#176
Ninja Stan

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Forsythia wrote...

No, not at all. They deserve the criticism. Worst part is the way they handled the issues people had. The condescending tone about those who didn't like the ending simply not understanding it for one.

This comes up often in discussions about the ending, but I'm not certain precisely where or how BioWare ever treated the community "consdescendingly." Is this a legitimate complaint, or is it, like the "artistic integrity" argument, a misinterpretation of certain comments used to justify people's anger and frustration?

Any company treating their customers like that deserves to be criticised.

But do they deserve to be abused and berated for making mistaked or doing things differently than what the community wants, though? Is frustration and disappointment, or even legitimate gripes, a good enough justification for some of the badmouthing and insults flying around? Or can BioWare demonstrate through their actions and decisions in the next project that they are trying not to make the same mistakes? I'm just wondering why the decisions made during a single project seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back for some people, as if no company had ever made a mistake before and the users had never been disappointed by any product before.

#177
dorktainian

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no stan they dont. i do wonder sometimes tho if me3 was an exercise in splitting the bsn community because there is so much imo that can be speculated on. hey even the leaked memo from bioware on 'speculations for everyone' didnt help. what it shows imo is that people give a damn. reactions differ but they care. its a great game that left more questions than answers. all people want imo is to know what the heck happened and whats next if - as appears - there is more 'answers' dlc incoming.

#178
David7204

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Not to defend anyone's behavior, but I genuinely haven't been this disappointed with a product before. Ever. (It was never a question of money, I don't give half a damn about the $60 I spent.)

Of course, that's much more of a testament to BioWare's quality than it is a condemnation of the endings.

#179
TheJediSaint

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Ninja Stan wrote...

But do they deserve to be abused and berated for making mistaked or doing things differently than what the community wants, though? Is frustration and disappointment, or even legitimate gripes, a good enough justification for some of the badmouthing and insults flying around? Or can BioWare demonstrate through their actions and decisions in the next project that they are trying not to make the same mistakes? I'm just wondering why the decisions made during a single project seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back for some people, as if no company had ever made a mistake before and the users had never been disappointed by any product before.


Nothing justfies abusing or personally insulting the developers, no matter how disaponted one may be with their product.  Too many fans took the shortcomings of Mass Effect 3 as personnal insults, which they certainly were not.

Now I do thing a lot of the critism that Bioware has recived has been and is justfied.   My criticism of the ending was not born out of disapointment because bioware didn't give me what I wanted, but because I thought the ending was poorly done, espcacially in comparison to the rest of the game. 

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 30 décembre 2012 - 03:09 .


#180
Ninja Stan

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Robhuzz wrote...

Making money is important since it allows us to live a proper life. There's a difference between wanting to create a good product that people will want to buy and thus generate profits and having 'max profits' at the top of your priorities list though. Below 'game quality', 'ethics' and 'customer satisfaction' in fact. Thus my comment on focussing so much on mass marketing and the media circus since they clearly didn't put the focus on game quality with ME3

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the difference you're talking about. Companies exist solely to make money, whether by providing services or products. Mass marketing is a way to expose more people to your product in the hopes of persuading them to purchase your products or services. "Max profits" is ultimately the goal for every company.

I was referring to the entire 'art' argument that bioware started using after the debacle to get off the hook. In my book you're either in this business purely for the money (EA/corporations) or you're making a living on something that you love doing and clearly put your best foot forward (Indie devs for example but this amounts to pretty much every entrepeneur).

I'm not sure how you can determine whether a company is "making a living doing something that you love doing," since, as I mentioned, all companies are "in this business purely for the money." Companies don't exist without money coming in for their products and services. Even indie developers need a source of income in order to do what they do. Whether that money comes out of their own pockets, through business grants/loans, investors, or a day job is kind of immaterial. Working for a large company rather than slogging it out the indie route is not a good gauge of whether someone is passionate about what they do.

What about bioware? At one time they're claiming to be a business first and foremost (day 1 dlc that was clearly ripped from the game to be sold seperately for extra profits - poor show and totally unacceptable. 

This is patently false, as I've mentioned before. There is no "extra profits" being made here, merely additional products being sold. After all, no one accuses and berated McDonald's for trying to make "extra profits" by suggesting French fries or apple pie or supersizing their combo. Shouldn't pie and a large-sized drink and fries be part of the combo meal to begin with? Why would McDonald's try to nickel and dime its customers by making them pay separately for stuff that should be in the combo meal to begin with?

I do not know why people even put up with this tbh

I don't know. Why did you pay for it if you didn't want it and didn't agree with it? DLC is ultimately optional. You don't have to "put up with it" at all. If you didn't pay for it, why do you think that others shouldn't have the opportunity to pay for extra content that they're interested in?

I do not know why people even put up with this tbh) and then when they feel like it they're 'artists' that should showhow exclude them from criticism (particularly about the ending)

Please read previous comments in the thread (and the "Commercial writing" thread) for the debunking of this erroneous claim.

#181
nos_astra

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Ninja Stan wrote...
This comes up often in discussions about the ending, but I'm not certain precisely where or how BioWare ever treated the community "consdescendingly." Is this a legitimate complaint, or is it, like the "artistic integrity" argument, a misinterpretation of certain comments used to justify people's anger and frustration?

It's mostly a lack of acknowledgement of flaws (not sure how a company could do that and not shoot themselves in the foot), lots of PR talk (especially what accompanied the EC was perceived as dishonest), little remarks (Will there be a sequel? - Why would you want to explore a wasteland?) and rumors.

And of course there was the media speaking on Bioware's behalf, openly mocking disgruntled fans.

Modifié par klarabella, 30 décembre 2012 - 03:17 .


#182
SpamBot2000

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Ninja Stan wrote...

Is frustration and disappointment, or even legitimate gripes, a good enough justification for some of the badmouthing and insults flying around? Or can BioWare demonstrate through their actions and decisions in the next project that they are trying not to make the same mistakes? I'm just wondering why the decisions made during a single project seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back for some people, as if no company had ever made a mistake before and the users had never been disappointed by any product before.


Frustration and disappointment are an explanation for badmouthing and insults. Frustration builds in people who feel ignored. And what BioWare did with ME3 ruined the whole trilogy for many people, myself included. Those were among my favorite games ever, Stan. And I've been playing video games since the 80's. I'd like to have my favorite games back. The next BioWare project is not going to repair them. It needs to happen with DLC for this one.

Video games mean more to me than for some people because they were really a great help in keeping me from certain kinds of trouble at a time when I needed that. And it is galling to me to see this wonderful project brought to such an ignoble end for what appear to be reasons entirely unconnected to creating a satisfying story for the loyal customers who invested much of themselves in this story over the years. Sure, some people have managed to convince themselves of an artistic intent behind the endings, but I look at what BW delivered and I can not believe in a good faith attempt at satisfying closure in it. I see an attempt to get rid of an ongoing fictional setting with the quickest and crudest methods available. And I want people who would do such a thing to know that I find it unacceptable. 

Failure is one thing. Intentional sabotage is another. 

#183
Forsythia

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Thank you for the reply, Stanley! :)

Ninja Stan wrote...

This comes up often in discussions about the ending, but I'm not certain precisely where or how BioWare ever treated the community "consdescendingly." Is this a legitimate complaint, or is it, like the "artistic integrity" argument, a misinterpretation of certain comments used to justify people's anger and frustration?


It's not only the 'artistic integrity' argument, and yes, it could be a misinterpretation (as happens so many times on the internet). It's a culmination of things, actually, like the silence, the artistic integrity argument, the tweets of some devs and of course the infamous 'LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE'. And emotions, of course. I for one was (and still am) very emotionally invested in this series, the universe, the characters and felt a bit 'mocked at' by being that. Instead, the developers should be proud they accomplished that and acknowledge those feelings from fans.

But do they deserve to be abused and berated for making mistaked or doing things differently than what the community wants, though? Is frustration and disappointment, or even legitimate gripes, a good enough justification for some of the badmouthing and insults flying around? Or can BioWare demonstrate through their actions and decisions in the next project that they are trying not to make the same mistakes? I'm just wondering why the decisions made during a single project seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back for some people, as if no company had ever made a mistake before and the users had never been disappointed by any product before.


I agree with you that people make mistakes, sure. The ending, I'd call that a (partial) mistake. Most of it was acknowledged with the EC, which was decent. I still think the ending is one of the worst I have ever experienced, but I agree that the developers should not be 'abused and berated' about it constantly. But can you imagine I'm not willing to fork over another €60,- immediately for a new BioWare game, when we were lied to about something like the multiplayer requirement or the consequenses of my choices in 3 games? I want to buy a new BioWare game, sure, but I'm not upto something like that anymore and will wait for the reviews to make sure something like that won't happen again.

Modifié par Forsythia, 30 décembre 2012 - 03:30 .


#184
TheRealJayDee

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Ninja Stan wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...
*snip well thought out and well presented quote*

I think my preference would be for more game discussion to be as well thought out and well presented as your post is, Riptide. That certainly is a lot easier to read than "BIOWARE IS INCOMPETENT AND LAZY AND SHOULD BE FIRED!" and "BIOWER RUINED GAMES FOREVARRRRRR!" I understand that people get frustrated and disappointed with things they're passionate about, like videogames, but we don't have to let our anger and frustration turn us into children wailing because Mom wouldn't buy us the sugary cereal we wanted.

I've often said: we can disagree with each other withour resorting to childish behaviour.

The community demonstrating that they are more interested in civilized discourse and debate makes the BSN a more fun, safer, and better place to talk about the games you're all passionate about. And having a place where game discussion is fun, safe, and intelligent encourages everyone, probably even devs, to participate. I've been doing my part as Moderator to try and keep this place fun, civil, and safe. If all y'all can do likewise, or at least can try and do likewise, we all benefit. :)


Well, I believe there are and were a lot of eloquent, well thought out and civilized posts regarding all aspects of the troubles people had and have with ME3 over the course of time. Like this awesome post from Riptide (I'm close to becoming a fan, good sir! ^^). But like in this very case - what is the reaction? A friendly post from you, a mod, telling us that the whole forum would indeed be a nicer place if everyone was acting nicely. We know that. Many of us try and tried to do that. But there are points where it really gets frustrating.

There are a lot of things that upset me concerning ME3, both as a fan of Mass Effect and as a paying customer, and I still haven't got the feeling that many of them are at least acknowledged satisfyingly. And while I have to say that obviously I don't speak for everyone (which for some reason seems neccessary to point out), I got the impression that many fans share that feeling.

We have in this thread of course already talked about the infamous pre-release quotes, and the "EMS/best ending" issue. Those, aside from everything concerning the game's mechanics and writing, really made me lose so much trust in and sympathy for Bioware as a whole that I have a hard time taking anything that is said about future games seriously. This is a massive issue, and while I'm not sure how to properly deal with this I also haven't gotten the impression that anyone at Bioware is trying to approach this beyond a "it was all a big cluster**** of miscommunication and misunderstanding, let's just forget about it." If it actually was like that... well, that's not very reassuring.

The impression I got from what the community/company interaction looked like since shortly before ME3 release was that there was of course a lot of frustration and vitriol on the side of the fans, but also legitimate complaints and well presented critique and pleas for explanations and acknowledgement of problems. I seldom felt the latter got the response they'd have needed, because most of what I saw from Bioware's side were the mods and community managers trying their best to keep some kind of control over the massive backlash, without actually being able to give much constructive reactions to the legitimate complaints.

There's only so many times one can hear "we're listening" and/or "we're investigating" before a certain level of frustration is reached. The whole situation was of course made a lot worse by the way the whole controversy pretty much completely disunited the community into more or less hostile groups, seemingly near the point of being irreconcilably opposed. With a situation like that of course there is only so much the usual staff of, urm, community tamers can do. Before that situation arose I believe would have been the time where someone with more substantial things to say than “be nice to each other” (which is right and good, don’t get me wrong) would have needed to step in.
 
There should have been some official statement concerning peripheral issues like the “lies” about the game before release, and some kind of opportunity to discuss the highly controversial points of the writing with, well, the people who wrote it, or at least some way to get a chance to hear their thoughts and motivations behind it. I strongly believe this would have helped to start cleaning up the mess we have.
 
Ironically the Bioware staff member that over the last months has done the best job to reconcile me with the company and help mend some wounds was Allan Schumacher, who isn’t even part of the ME team, but came to the boards in his free time to discuss… well, stuff. He was there, he gave his thoughts about things, he talked to us. Kudos to him at this point being a genuinely nice guy!
 
This isn’t meant in any way meant to imply you’re doing a bad job or anything, Stan, you’re doing pretty great as far as I’m concerned. But the problem is that there basically isn’t much you can do concerning the real issues at hand. You give lectures about how a company works, and how certain processes within it happen, and encourage the community to behave like the grown ups they’re supposed to be. It’s interesting to read, and I’m thankful for the info and I agree with you completely on the behavioural advice. But you’re not part of Bioware and you can’t comment and shed light on the things that are eating up the community. Sadly I don’t even know if anyone can anymore, maybe we’re past that point already…
 
 
 
  
 
Long story short: I don’t even know what can be done to get us all past all the bad feelings there are at the moment. I just want to feel taken seriously as a customer and as a fan, and I would love to be able to get excited about future Bioware games again. I appreciate the hard work and the passion that are put into making the games by the many enthusiastic folks at Bioware, and I hate not being able to express this appreciation more often.
 
Let’s all hope for better times…!

#185
RiptideX1090

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Ninja Stan wrote...

This comes up often in discussions about the ending, but I'm not certain precisely where or how BioWare ever treated the community "consdescendingly." Is this a legitimate complaint, or is it, like the "artistic integrity" argument, a misinterpretation of certain comments used to justify people's anger and frustration?



Actually, I think it is a combination of two things. The artistic integrity comment, which for various reasons rubbed people the wrong way (again, for perhaps the first time, it felt like the devs were saying it was less about telling the story we all wanted, and them trying to save face and say 'look! It's not so bad! See?') is one factor. On it's own though, that wasn't what did it. Again, that kind of rubbed people the wrong way, and that was how a lot of people took it, right or not.

But what REALLY set that feeling a lot of us got of them saying 'we're sticking to our guns and if you don't like it, tough' was the new Refuse ending. Look, I don't know what the dev's thoughts were when they decided to implement that ending. For all anyone knows, it might of just been them expanding on the 'bad end' of Shepard not doing anything and the Crucible getting destroyed. But even if it wasn't malevolent, this is again indicative of the disconnect from what we're asking for and what we were given, and this is a major problem. Let me illustrate why.

Leading up to the EC, we were told flat out there would be no new endings. There would be expansions on what was given. Most of us weren't happy, but we went along with. The majority of us, however, very vocally advocated for a new ending, a fourth ending where we tell the Catalyst to get stuffed, where if we had enough War Assets we could fight and win without the Crucible. This would have been far more in keeping with the original theme of the game, which was victory though sacrifice. If you did everything right, got the geth, cured the genophage, got the Salarians by saving the Councilor, made all the right decisions and everyone was fighiting this fight with you, we wanted that to matter, we really hoped you would see why we wanted that so badly. We didn't want to blow up EDI and the geth. We didn't want to melt away to become the new Catalyst. We didn't want to fuse organics with the Reapers. We wanted our choices to matter, for our faith and our good decisions to matter. We wanted to shout down the Catalyst, to tell him he was wrong, that we proved organics and Synthetics could cooperate, as shown by EDI's love for Jeff and Legion and Tali's bonding, ect.

So, when a lot of us fired up the EC, we got to the point where we were poking holes in the Catalyst's offered decisions, and when the option to finally say "I reject these choices!" comes up, we were ecstatic! I was flippin' over the moon. I saw that and was like 'this is it, they swallowed their pride, they gave us what we wanted against all odds, I can tell this little brat to go burn in hell, Legion's sacrifice wasn't for nothing, the Illusive man was wrong, and I don't have to indoctrinate and huskify the entire Milky Way to accept peace.' I hit that option, Shepard gave a badass 'screw you' speech to the Catalyst, and...

And Game Over. It was just a really fancy game over screen.

I don't know what the intentions behind adding refuse were. It may really have been as innocous as simply adding a fancy 'bad end'. But when you step back and look at it, it feels so much more like a collossal '**** you' from the people who wrote it, it feels like a tremendous slap in the face. So many of us wanted a refusal option, and for victory in that way to be possible, to make that enormous sacrifice and for it to be worth it in the end. But it wasn't. Given the line about artistic integrity and Bioware taking our feedback, this just felt like spite. It felt like "yeah, we're listening to your feedback, we know you wanted to refuse and to win that way by having enough war assets and by making all the right choices, but it's never gonna happen, it's our way or the high way, so pick your poison and deal with it, it's our story, not yours."

Is that assessment true? Is it fair? I don't know. On the recieving end, that what I can tell you it feels like. It feels like whoever wrote that was taking the thing we love most about the Bioware team, your willingness to listen to our feedback, and was twisting into something to spite us. It felt like we were being mocked. Was it perhaps unrealistic to expect a new ending where we could win without the Catalyst? Maybe. But I do think, after all our feedback and critique, all our pleading to end the game on an actual high note, to reject the Catalyst's 'problem,' and for it to be rewarded with a (admittedly well crafted) game over screen just... really, really hurt. Maybe it was just a big 'screw you, deal with it,' from the devs. I honestly don't think it was. I certainly hope it wasn't. But I hope, looking at it from our perspective, you can understand why we might feel that way. So when people say they feel Bioware is being condescending to them, this, I think, is where it stems from. A combination of things, culminating in Artistic Integrity combined with Refuse.

I hope that helps you understand the problem a little better.

#186
David7204

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I don't think I need to point out that a refusal victory would have rendered the other endings utterly pointless.

#187
RiptideX1090

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David7204 wrote...

I don't think I need to point out that a refusal victory would have rendered the other endings utterly pointless.


Well, yes, that would be the point.

Low EMS is still there.

Mid Level EMS.

Then high Level EMS, where all three options are available.

Then very high EMS, where Shepard lives in Destroy.

Then there would be the ultimate end, where Refuse becomes an option. The idea here is that we passed the test. That's what a Crucible is, it's a test, a trial. In this ending, where you have the highest EMS and you also made all the best decisions, all the races are behind your back, you made peace, ect, you played the game right, here, you win. You passed the trials presented by the Reapers, by getting everyone together, and of the Crucible itself: the easy way out. You win here, because ultimately you don't need it. Because you fought as a united galaxy. You didn't need to resort to the Catalyst's games, you don't bend to his logic because you proved it wrong. The casualties will be immense, but it wouldn't be for nothing.

One of the problems with Mass Effect 3's ending is that it forces the ending to be a choice, not a culmination of all your past choices. Hence why people feel it doesn't matter. A Victory through Refusal ending changes that.

Is that unrealistic? Probably. Was it ever going to happen? Most likely not. But to be teased with it like we were with the EC only to have the door effectively slammed in our faces just felt... cruel.

#188
Yate

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RiptideX1090 wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I don't think I need to point out that a refusal victory would have rendered the other endings utterly pointless.


Well, yes, that would be the point.

Low EMS is still there.

Mid Level EMS.

Then high Level EMS, where all three options are available.

Then very high EMS, where Shepard lives in Destroy.

Then there would be the ultimate end, where Refuse becomes an option. The idea here is that we passed the test. That's what a Crucible is, it's a test, a trial. In this ending, where you have the highest EMS and you also made all the best decisions, all the races are behind your back, you made peace, ect, you played the game right, here, you win. You passed the trials presented by the Reapers, by getting everyone together, and of the Crucible itself: the easy way out. You win here, because ultimately you don't need it. Because you fought as a united galaxy. You didn't need to resort to the Catalyst's games, you don't bend to his logic because you proved it wrong. The casualties will be immense, but it wouldn't be for nothing.

One of the problems with Mass Effect 3's ending is that it forces the ending to be a choice, not a culmination of all your past choices. Hence why people feel it doesn't matter. A Victory through Refusal ending changes that.

Is that unrealistic? Probably. Was it ever going to happen? Most likely not. But to be teased with it like we were with the EC only to have the door effectively slammed in our faces just felt... cruel.


no

#189
Iakus

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TheRealJayDee wrote...

Well, I believe there are and were a lot of eloquent, well thought out and civilized posts regarding all aspects of the troubles people had and have with ME3 over the course of time. Like this awesome post from Riptide (I'm close to becoming a fan, good sir! ^^). But like in this very case - what is the reaction? A friendly post from you, a mod, telling us that the whole forum would indeed be a nicer place if everyone was acting nicely. We know that. Many of us try and tried to do that. But there are points where it really gets frustrating.

There are a lot of things that upset me concerning ME3, both as a fan of Mass Effect and as a paying customer, and I still haven't got the feeling that many of them are at least acknowledged satisfyingly. And while I have to say that obviously I don't speak for everyone (which for some reason seems neccessary to point out), I got the impression that many fans share that feeling.

We have in this thread of course already talked about the infamous pre-release quotes, and the "EMS/best ending" issue. Those, aside from everything concerning the game's mechanics and writing, really made me lose so much trust in and sympathy for Bioware as a whole that I have a hard time taking anything that is said about future games seriously. This is a massive issue, and while I'm not sure how to properly deal with this I also haven't gotten the impression that anyone at Bioware is trying to approach this beyond a "it was all a big cluster**** of miscommunication and misunderstanding, let's just forget about it." If it actually was like that... well, that's not very reassuring.

The impression I got from what the community/company interaction looked like since shortly before ME3 release was that there was of course a lot of frustration and vitriol on the side of the fans, but also legitimate complaints and well presented critique and pleas for explanations and acknowledgement of problems. I seldom felt the latter got the response they'd have needed, because most of what I saw from Bioware's side were the mods and community managers trying their best to keep some kind of control over the massive backlash, without actually being able to give much constructive reactions to the legitimate complaints.

There's only so many times one can hear "we're listening" and/or "we're investigating" before a certain level of frustration is reached. The whole situation was of course made a lot worse by the way the whole controversy pretty much completely disunited the community into more or less hostile groups, seemingly near the point of being irreconcilably opposed. With a situation like that of course there is only so much the usual staff of, urm, community tamers can do. Before that situation arose I believe would have been the time where someone with more substantial things to say than “be nice to each other” (which is right and good, don’t get me wrong) would have needed to step in.
 
There should have been some official statement concerning peripheral issues like the “lies” about the game before release, and some kind of opportunity to discuss the highly controversial points of the writing with, well, the people who wrote it, or at least some way to get a chance to hear their thoughts and motivations behind it. I strongly believe this would have helped to start cleaning up the mess we have.
 
Ironically the Bioware staff member that over the last months has done the best job to reconcile me with the company and help mend some wounds was Allan Schumacher, who isn’t even part of the ME team, but came to the boards in his free time to discuss… well, stuff. He was there, he gave his thoughts about things, he talked to us. Kudos to him at this point being a genuinely nice guy!
 
This isn’t meant in any way meant to imply you’re doing a bad job or anything, Stan, you’re doing pretty great as far as I’m concerned. But the problem is that there basically isn’t much you can do concerning the real issues at hand. You give lectures about how a company works, and how certain processes within it happen, and encourage the community to behave like the grown ups they’re supposed to be. It’s interesting to read, and I’m thankful for the info and I agree with you completely on the behavioural advice. But you’re not part of Bioware and you can’t comment and shed light on the things that are eating up the community. Sadly I don’t even know if anyone can anymore, maybe we’re past that point already…
 
 
 
  
 
Long story short: I don’t even know what can be done to get us all past all the bad feelings there are at the moment. I just want to feel taken seriously as a customer and as a fan, and I would love to be able to get excited about future Bioware games again. I appreciate the hard work and the passion that are put into making the games by the many enthusiastic folks at Bioware, and I hate not being able to express this appreciation more often.
 
Let’s all hope for better times…!


Speaking of long, eloquent, well-thought out posts... ;)

I agree with every single word of this post.  It really spells out the frustration people feel here on the BSN both regarding ME3 nad how things were handled afterwards.

#190
crimzontearz

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Asfar as blatant lies were made during the prerelease PR blitz i'm kinda twofold. Yes alot of remarks made back then were fishy but whether that was actually lying or getting caught up in their own PR hype is something i always wondered. Casey and co popped up everywhere trying too squeeze in a hot quote too get hype going especially the week before release and the most damning statements were made in that time period.

Personally i had alot more problems with Bioware's silence concerning certain features. Especially the face-import not working. For such an important and defining feature too blatantly not work at release was bad enough but Bioware stayed silent for weeks. That and the whole MP needed or not needed discussion was imo an even bigger farce then whether or not people actually lied.

wanna have a laugh? bioware employees were not allowed to import their characters at work so they would have never known


This is a joke yea?


sorry for the delay, I was temporarily banned....

no it is not and I have a direct quote to prove it

#191
Nykara

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I am sure that they are well aware as the rest of us are, that EA and its push for MP + lack of time and budget had a big part to play.

Enough time for 1 more disc of game play would have done it. Instead a big chunk of the disc space was taken up with MP so SP got the shaft. Especially the ending, it was clearly rushed.

#192
Reofeir

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Criticism is an important thing, never stop doing such. Insulting someone and saying they need to be fired or even using threats? Yeah, that is a little crazy. Telling them your true opinions about something you disliked? Needed. Better if you calmly say it without sounding like an, well, ass. Offering criticism and not buying future products till you find they make a product of your liking? This is something people should do a lot. Do not feel bad for criticism. I'd personally feel bad if I insulted them for no reason, though I would not feel bad on telling them what I think they did wrong.

#193
crimzontearz

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Nykara wrote...

I am sure that they are well aware as the rest of us are, that EA and its push for MP + lack of time and budget had a big part to play.

Enough time for 1 more disc of game play would have done it. Instead a big chunk of the disc space was taken up with MP so SP got the shaft. Especially the ending, it was clearly rushed.

they will not admit it even if someone who worked on the project come out and says it publicly like it happened with DA2

#194
Nykara

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Ninja Stan wrote...

But do they deserve to be abused and berated for making mistaked or doing things differently than what the community wants, though? Is frustration and disappointment, or even legitimate gripes, a good enough justification for some of the badmouthing and insults flying around? Or can BioWare demonstrate through their actions and decisions in the next project that they are trying not to make the same mistakes? I'm just wondering why the decisions made during a single project seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back for some people, as if no company had ever made a mistake before and the users had never been disappointed by any product before.


Direct abuse to individuals is one thing and somethign I would never condone, the company on the whole however being berated? I would think that is to be expected.

They have had the chance already, many times over to correct the mistakes made in ME3 and they have not done so. Why would anyone think that they will do so in future titles? The chance is still available right here and right now for them to show the community that they ARE willing to fix mistakes by fixing THIS game. Not waiting until another. This is the game that the fans love and care for, these are the characters that the fans love and care for, if they can't fix them here and now why would we have faith in future products?

They know what the majority of the fans want to see. There is more the enough constructive critisim around these forums *without* abuse to draw on. There are more then enough polls around to show exactly where the majority of votes sit. All of which have been vastly ignored - at least to the community that is how it seems.

If you buy a toaster from a company and it doesn't behave as it should, the features on the box don't work nearly as well as they claim to, you aren't going to go back to that same company and buy another toaster in hopes it will do better - you would go to another company.

#195
crimzontearz

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Nykara wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

But do they deserve to be abused and berated for making mistaked or doing things differently than what the community wants, though? Is frustration and disappointment, or even legitimate gripes, a good enough justification for some of the badmouthing and insults flying around? Or can BioWare demonstrate through their actions and decisions in the next project that they are trying not to make the same mistakes? I'm just wondering why the decisions made during a single project seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back for some people, as if no company had ever made a mistake before and the users had never been disappointed by any product before.


Direct abuse to individuals is one thing and somethign I would never condone, the company on the whole however being berated? I would think that is to be expected.

They have had the chance already, many times over to correct the mistakes made in ME3 and they have not done so. Why would anyone think that they will do so in future titles? The chance is still available right here and right now for them to show the community that they ARE willing to fix mistakes by fixing THIS game. Not waiting until another. This is the game that the fans love and care for, these are the characters that the fans love and care for, if they can't fix them here and now why would we have faith in future products?

They know what the majority of the fans want to see. There is more the enough constructive critisim around these forums *without* abuse to draw on. There are more then enough polls around to show exactly where the majority of votes sit. All of which have been vastly ignored - at least to the community that is how it seems.

If you buy a toaster from a company and it doesn't behave as it should, the features on the box don't work nearly as well as they claim to, you aren't going to go back to that same company and buy another toaster in hopes it will do better - you would go to another company.

cue the BS line that there were too many things people asked for to please everyone in spite of the fact the overwhelming majority asked for very specific things in nearly every poll both internal and external in 3...2...1

#196
RiptideX1090

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crimzontearz wrote...
cue the BS line that there were too many things people asked for to please everyone in spite of the fact the overwhelming majority asked for very specific things in nearly every poll both internal and external in 3...2...1


This attitude right here is precisely why the devs don't want to talk to any of us.

#197
crimzontearz

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RiptideX1090 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
cue the BS line that there were too many things people asked for to please everyone in spite of the fact the overwhelming majority asked for very specific things in nearly every poll both internal and external in 3...2...1


This attitude right here is precisely why the devs don't want to talk to any of us.

my original attitude was "I am willing to pay 1200 for a reunion scene no question asked"

one has to work pretty hard to turn a fan as hardcore as I was into someone as disenfranchised as I am now


but they succeeded

#198
archangel1996

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I feel hungry

#199
crimzontearz

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archangel1996 wrote...

I feel hungry

go eat?

#200
Nykara

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crimzontearz wrote...

RiptideX1090 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
cue the BS line that there were too many things people asked for to please everyone in spite of the fact the overwhelming majority asked for very specific things in nearly every poll both internal and external in 3...2...1


This attitude right here is precisely why the devs don't want to talk to any of us.

my original attitude was "I am willing to pay 1200 for a reunion scene no question asked"

one has to work pretty hard to turn a fan as hardcore as I was into someone as disenfranchised as I am now


but they succeeded


I still would pay for a DLC that fixed the ending of ME3. It would need to be more then just a reunion though although that would be a fantastic start especially if it included more conversation option dialogue but I just can't help but keeping on feeling that earth. That entire mission. Needed more then it got.