237 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

LucasShark wrote...

The former requires Shepards of all stripes to become a genocidal backstabber, and the latter involves granting infinite power to a falable mind after they specifically stated how that wasn't a viable or moral option.

EDI was rather clear that she preferred death before being a subject of the Reapers and the geth...well, they died believing that they're free.

That, and Legion was the only geth I liked (the rest of them were assh*les) and he was dead before that.

[Eryri]

AlanC9 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Scions consist of 3 partial humans wrapped around a giant gun: somehow I don't think that is finding a normal life anytime soon.

Didn't say they would. But would they prefer death? If so, they can blow all three of their own brains out; they're armed, right? If they prefer to live, that's their business.

To start with the example above, what happens if two of them want to die, but the third one doesn't? Is it a majority vote?

What if they are too mentally damaged to even make the decision? If a husk only regains the intelligence of, say, a domestic dog after synthesis, and is shuffling about, whimpering in obvious pain, what is the best thing to do for it then?

Synthesis really is a dreadful mess.

[SpamBot2000]

And that's why Patrick Weekes wasn't allowed to contribute to the ending. He considered the players.

[Outsider edge]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And that's why Patrick Weekes wasn't allowed to contribute to the ending. He considered the players.

Albeit if rumors are too be believed Walters and Hudson were solely responsible for the endings having had Weekes or any of the other writers involved isn't a guarentee that the endings would have improved. The endings are just at the end of a certified mess of a main plot. All the writers should have had their input on that and it turned out the way it's presented in the main game. With eleborate plotdevices like the Crucible popping up out of nowhere, Cerberus on steroids, logic fallacies, previous games having almost no meaning, pivotal characters dissapearing etc etc.

The sheer adoration for the other writers displayed by so many i simply don't get. All of them should have seen ME3's main plot play out from the get go and apparently none raised their hands signalling that there might be some problems with it.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 30 décembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Never mind.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 décembre 2012 - 12:08 .

[Sebby]

Outsider edge wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And that's why Patrick Weekes wasn't allowed to contribute to the ending. He considered the players.

Albeit if rumors are too be believed Walters and Hudson were solely responsible for the endings having had Weekes or any of the other writers involved isn't a guarentee that the endings would have improved. The endings are just at the end of a certified mess of a main plot. All the writers should have had their input on that and it turned out the way it's presented in the main game. With eleborate plotdevices like the Crucible popping up out of nowhere, Cerberus on steroids, logic fallacies, previous games having almost no meaning, pivotal characters dissapearing etc etc.

The sheer adoration for the other writers displayed by so many i simply don't get. All of them should have seen ME3's main plot play out from the get go and apparently none raised their hands signalling that there might be some problems with it.

Don't forget the lulzy retcons like the reason the Protheans lost against the Reapers is because of not embracing diversity. So not only are the devs incapable of delivering a solid plot but of promoting their political agenda as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Eryri wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Scions consist of 3 partial humans wrapped around a giant gun: somehow I don't think that is finding a normal life anytime soon.

Didn't say they would. But would they prefer death? If so, they can blow all three of their own brains out; they're armed, right? If they prefer to live, that's their business.

To start with the example above, what happens if two of them want to die, but the third one doesn't? Is it a majority vote?

Who says there are three identities in the Scion?

What if they are too mentally damaged to even make the decision?

Then they wouldn't be mentally coherent enough to consider their life a misery.

If a husk only regains the intelligence of, say, a domestic dog after synthesis, and is shuffling about, whimpering in obvious pain, what is the best thing to do for it then?

Since the husk in the Synthesis ending doesn't do that...

...what if your aunt had testicles? Then she'd be your uncle. But she doesn't.

Synthesis really is a dreadful mess.

It's deliberatly vague, which isn't the same thing. A lot of the mess comes from people putting unfounded assumptions onto what it would be like and then arguing from there.

[Xenomorphine]

LucasShark wrote...
Destroy - Causes Shepards who specifically created peace
between the Quarians and Geth to commit cosmic genocide against the
latter.

As I've said elsewhere, this greatly depends on your definition of both 'genocide' and 'sentient life'. Bioware's representation of how AI works is... Highly speculative, at best. I realise the writers' intentions, but whereas Legion's thought process was highly pragmatic in the second game, the surrounding events graduated to a lot more hand-wavey mentality in the third.

Nowhere in what Shepard is presented can it be argued that there is 100% proof that the Geth are truly alive (even if, for obvious reasons, the audience is being led into emotionally investing in that possibility). Even the alleged historical archives Legion shows, in regards to supposed quarian behaviour, is suspect, because all we have is its word to go on. The quarians genuinely seem surprised by the revelations in all dialogue I've heard, meaning it could easily be a psychological ploy to gain Shepard's sympathy.

I know that the creative Bioware team didn't write it with that in mind, but a continuity like this is fluid and the bottom line is that it's ambiguous. Nothing confirms that the geth have evolved into genuine equatable-to-organic-sentience levels of intelligence, just as nothing verifies the archive stuff. You, as Shepard, always have to make a judgement call on what you feel your character would go on blind faith with.

Yes, there's an animation which shows the network with Reaper code shifts to something which visually looks a bit more complex and one of the Admirals remarks upon it being a "true AI," but I'd much rather hear a specialist's view on it, like Xen. We never get that. Legion thinks it equates to whatever "true AI" is, but we're never really given the reasons for why this is so - something which is especially important when dealing with the perspective of something which... Differs to our own experience.

For instance, if you could communicate with a microbe and it thought a gigantic triangle was actually circular, you'd have the knowledge and reference point to be able to refute that. If you didn't... You've only got the microbe's perspective to go on and it becomes a huge debate which relies on, "Hey, their perspective is just as valid as yours!"

Which is why you need to apply the ideal of what's known as 'critical thinking' to a lot of claims which characters make in this continuity. They not only all have a bias, but they come from characters who are vulnerable to making flawed judgements, too. There's factual truth, then there are lies, then there are honest mistakes.

Same goes for EDI. Is she truly 'alive'? Nobody can really say. She seems to conclude that she is, but we never get a reliable outsider's perspective, just lots of character-based guess-work. We're not even sure how she's meant to work, since most of Cerberus' work on her is, in itself, still not made clear.

All of which is why I'm a great supporter of Admiral Xen, to be quite honest.  Presented like a stereotypical villain, but her views always come down to scientific pragmatism.

So, 'genocide'? Not really... And especially not so when it comes to beings which can simply do what Bioware have stated in canon they do to avoid viral infection. Namely, simply upload a cloned copy of their data from an archived back-up, made a few fractions of a second before. Why is this suddenly made impossible for EDI and the geth? We're never given a reason. Just as we're never really given an explanation for what the 'destroy' energy wave is physically doing (which would at least allow us to make educated guesses).

And so far as Shepard should be concerned, he or she should simply shrug shoulders and point this out when confronted with the supposed truth that the 'destroy' option will wipe out all synthetics.

It's not about being a 'renegade' or 'paragon' Shepard. It's about how pragmatic your own personal incarnation of Shepard is.

And that goes just as much for how each Shepard should interpret the Catelyst's options. He or she has no way of knowing if it's even telling the truth and not just operating as a holographic distration, trying to make them press the wrong button.

AlanC9 wrote...
I never quite got this bit. If they think their lives are horrific they can find a way to end them. If they don't find their lives horrific it isn't our place to say that they are.

That's assuming they're capable of self-termination. They might have self-preservation directives they'd still essentially be functioning under and unable to over-ride. They also might not even be capable of mentally comprehending the concept of suicide.

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And that's why Patrick Weekes wasn't allowed to contribute to the ending. He considered the players.

Albeit if rumors are too be believed Walters and Hudson were solely responsible for the endings having had Weekes or any of the other writers involved isn't a guarentee that the endings would have improved. The endings are just at the end of a certified mess of a main plot. All the writers should have had their input on that and it turned out the way it's presented in the main game. With eleborate plotdevices like the Crucible popping up out of nowhere, Cerberus on steroids, logic fallacies, previous games having almost no meaning, pivotal characters dissapearing etc etc.

The sheer adoration for the other writers displayed by so many i simply don't get. All of them should have seen ME3's main plot play out from the get go and apparently none raised their hands signalling that there might be some problems with it.

Don't forget the lulzy retcons like the reason the Protheans lost against the Reapers is because of not embracing diversity. So not only are the devs incapable of delivering a solid plot but of promoting their political agenda as well.

Uh, there can very well be multiple reasons why the Protheans lost. Javik never denies that the relay blockage was a major one.

[Rifneno]

Cypher_CS wrote...

That was stated before EC.

Definitely, I feel that some of the scenes in the EC do carry warnings.
As some here stated, Renegade Control has Shepard talking... and that feels as a warning of whats to come.
A dictatorship. Shepard will shape the universe in it's own vision.

Power corrupts, Absolute power....

In either version of Control, Shepbinger goes on about his grand new understanding and comprehension, his immortality... just like Sovereign and Harbinger used to.  And if anyone thinks Shepbinger won't ever reach the same conclusions and--huh.  That's odd.  The only spaceships, or really any living thing that's not just a still picture, is a Reaper.  Almost like... like everyone else is dead.  Naw, I'm sure it'll all be good.

Oh hey, remember that time that a BW employee told us the truth about something related to Mass Effect 3?  What was it, the release date?

[SpamBot2000]

Outsider edge wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And that's why Patrick Weekes wasn't allowed to contribute to the ending. He considered the players.

Albeit if rumors are too be believed Walters and Hudson were solely responsible for the endings having had Weekes or any of the other writers involved isn't a guarentee that the endings would have improved. The endings are just at the end of a certified mess of a main plot. All the writers should have had their input on that and it turned out the way it's presented in the main game. With eleborate plotdevices like the Crucible popping up out of nowhere, Cerberus on steroids, logic fallacies, previous games having almost no meaning, pivotal characters dissapearing etc etc.

The sheer adoration for the other writers displayed by so many i simply don't get. All of them should have seen ME3's main plot play out from the get go and apparently none raised their hands signalling that there might be some problems with it.

'Sheer adoration' might be overstating the case a little... Let's just say 'respect' and leave it at that. This is not to deny that the plot was a mess, but the good parts like Tuchanka would suggest some of the writers knew what they were doing. But there's only so much they can do when the lead writer is not up to the task of coming up with a coherent plot. That, along with the clear lack of development time seem to me to be the main causes of the mess BW delivered. And the lack of time itself is partly at least attributable to the lead writer, who was making the Arrival DLC when he should have been focused on ME3.

As for Patrick Weekes, he at least has made statements indicating he has actually considered the experience the player gets out of the game. Contrast this with the lead writer happily assisting in torching the story in order to get to the juicy part of milking the fans with comic book prequels that don't require nearly the amount of writing a game does. 

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 30 décembre 2012 - 02:47 .

[JackBravo69]

My renegade, psycho shepard:

Killed Wrex
Killed Shiala
Sacrificed Destiny Ascension
Let Alenko die
Killed Ash in ME3
Gave Tali´s father´s evidences to admirals
Tali died in Suicide Mission
Didnt bother with Samara´s daughter, she died in suicide mission
Let Miranda kill her friend, Jack kill dude at test facility, Garrus kill traitor dude, mordin kill lab assistant.
Killed all colonists at feros
Let the geth wipe out the quarians
Was against Edi and joker´s romance
Killed Edi and the geth in destroy
wiped out the rachni
sabotaged the genophage


A real hero alright lol

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Don't forget the lulzy retcons like the reason the Protheans lost against the Reapers is because of not embracing diversity. So not only are the devs incapable of delivering a solid plot but of promoting their political agenda as well.

Uh, there can very well be multiple reasons why the Protheans lost. Javik never denies that the relay blockage was a major one.

Frankly, I am with Seboist on this one. From Ashes really seemed to downplay the importance of the relay network shutdown, from being the act that basicly defeated them, to just being a handicap in their fight.

[Sebby]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Uh, there can very well be multiple reasons why the Protheans lost. Javik never denies that the relay blockage was a major one.

ME1 made it quite clear the Prothys were doomed right from the start with the surprise decapication strike and loss of the relays(the latter of which was retconned). ME3 was promoting the notion that they actually stood a chance and could have won(lmfao).

Oh and ME3 failed to demonstrate how "diversity is a strength!" with all the Shepard white (wo)man's burdening with the idiot aliens who couldn't get their crap straightened out and didn't contribute anything beyond raw strength to the war effort(contrary to the notion of diversity of ideas that Javik spewed).

[Rifneno]

JackBravo69 wrote...

My renegade, psycho shepard:

Killed Wrex
Killed Shiala
Sacrificed Destiny Ascension
Let Alenko die
Killed Ash in ME3
Gave Tali´s father´s evidences to admirals
Tali died in Suicide Mission
Didnt bother with Samara´s daughter, she died in suicide mission
Let Miranda kill her friend, Jack kill dude at test facility, Garrus kill traitor dude, mordin kill lab assistant.
Killed all colonists at feros
Let the geth wipe out the quarians
Was against Edi and joker´s romance
Killed Edi and the geth in destroy
wiped out the rachni
sabotaged the genophage


A real hero alright lol

The worst part is, it looks like you let Jacob live.  Not cool, man.  Not cool.

[GreyLycanTrope]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

*snip*
Some people argue that Destroy also makes you a villain. The same goes for Refuse. So are you a villain no matter what you choose?

Yes. At the very least there are no heroes.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 30 décembre 2012 - 02:52 .

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...

ME1 made it quite clear the Prothys were doomed right from the start with the surprise decapication strike and loss of the relays(the latter of which was retconned). ME3 was promoting the notion that they actually stood a chance and could have won(lmfao).

Oh and ME3 failed to demonstrate how "diversity is a strength!" with all the Shepard white (wo)man's burdening with the idiot aliens who couldn't get their crap straightened out and didn't contribute anything beyond raw strength to the war effort(contrary to the notion of diversity of ideas that Javik spewed).

Ah, yes. The notion that everything a character says needs to be the absolute truth, otherwise it's bad writing or whatever you people are coming up with these days.

Never mind that it could just have been a belief Javik was invested in.

Also, From Ashes made it pretty clear that they were fighting a losing battle and decided to go into hiding to try and rebuild after the Reapers had done their thing and then create a force strong enough to win against them (again, that's a notion, not a statement to be regarded as a fact, since they have no idea of knowing whenever it's true or not), which never happened because the plan backfired. It's not saying that they could have won during the invasion, nor is it something that contradicts the Citadel trap.

Was the invasion underplayed and portrayed as an inconvenience? Somewhat, yes, but just because someone is faced with overwhelming odds doesn't mean that they can't try to come up with contingency plans.

Never mind that the different races were actually delivering diversity in different tactics and such that went beyond brute force, as shown during both Hackett's debriefings and several missions, like the Rannoch story arc, where the quarians developed a weapon allowing them to sneak by the geth undetected or during the Tuchanka story arc where Shepard summons Kalros to kill the Reaper. Had it all been about brute strength, they'd have blown through everything.

Sure, some things could have been handled differently, but expecting a developer to tackle a situation in every way imaginable to support as many players' beliefs as possible is rather unrealistic.

But I'm wrong for expecting something that requires actual thought and not just "durr, iz bad" from you, since all you've done since the release of ME2 is whine about how the games aren't revolving around your ways and lives up to your almost unreachable expectations and therefore are bad, reducing everything you're saying to the old trash talk we've heard over and over by now.

It's like when that smudboy guy releases a "new" video and manages to present himself as the slowest individual on the internet, since what he's going through has already been talked about for months when his videos are going online. Sure, people are still talking about it, but that doesn't mean it's something new or delivers an astounding new realization, since his material is just a more elaborate and too drawn out way of saying that something is bad.

TL;DR:

Yes, we all know it's bad/not meeting expectations. Come up with something new for once.

[Sundance31us]

It's a POV thing. In broad strokes, yes Shepard is "fighting to save the galaxy", but depending on choices (I'm not talking about the ending) he/she can be considered a villain to say...the Krogan, Quarians, Geth, Batarians.

[Yate]

Synthesis, no.

Control, depends on your Shepard.

Destroy, no.

Refuse, yes.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

You're an idiot if you refuse, not a villain. None of the options make Shepard a villain, unless you really really love reapers/synthetics and shepard picked destroy

+1

[Yate]

JackBravo69 wrote...

My renegade, psycho shepard:

Killed Wrex
Killed Shiala
Sacrificed Destiny Ascension
Let Alenko die
Killed Ash in ME3
Gave Tali´s father´s evidences to admirals
Tali died in Suicide Mission
Didnt bother with Samara´s daughter, she died in suicide mission
Let Miranda kill her friend, Jack kill dude at test facility, Garrus kill traitor dude, mordin kill lab assistant.
Killed all colonists at feros
Let the geth wipe out the quarians
Was against Edi and joker´s romance
Killed Edi and the geth in destroy
wiped out the rachni
sabotaged the genophage


A real hero alright lol

good, he could've endangered the mission
good, she had to pay for her crimes
good, you saved a lot of human lives
good, you made a difficult choice and saved the mission
good, she was weak and stupid not to trust you
good, they should know the truth
good, if she was weak enough to die because of her father she shouldn't have been on your team
good, you couldn't have gone chasing after some random serial killer, and again - weak
good, they were horrible people who deserved to die
good, you didn't risk the galaxy by wasting valuable time
good, they were wiped out by their own hubris
good, that was creepy
good, you saved a krogan company and probably saved the galaxy from another threat
good, the krogan weren't ready

any renegade action can be justified

[Wayning_Star]

this seems strange to me when the main plot of the game/story is that EVERYONE in the MEU is the villian.


organics created the catalyst, thus the cycle and end up promoting the pattern via their instinctual NEED for "stuff" to exist in the 'current' MEU.

Shep is just the harbinger of their ascension... even got him/herself resurrected.... i.e. cheated.

So, no one can be the villian IF everyone is..lol

BiowarEa needs a canon maker bad... a "New Industrial Revolution"...

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 30 décembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Wayning_Star]

oh..almost forgot.. Edi is the villian... took the wrong body without permission. Shame on it.

stop staring at her too...shameful that... humans didn't create her/it either, that was some other being out in deep space..she's actually a spy for them..the "un announced"..

Coming soon to a cerebral cortex near you!!