237 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Bathaius wrote...

Well, no 'hero' from another story would have accepted the main villain dictating that they pick one of their pre-designed choices that resulted in genocide or mass rewriting of DNA, etc.

Hey, you go to war with the Crucible you have, not the Crucible you wish you had.

So, what is Shepard at the end? Pathetic? Yes. Subjugated? Definetly. Without a choice? For sure. Pick your poison. You lose any way you go, at least your soul, but you'll save 'some', right? It's a dark, bitter ending any way you go, and the only way to get there is to blindly trust that the main villain you've been fighting against the entire time has suddenly gotten a benevolent streak.

I don't know where "subjugated " comes from there. True, Shep's not spewing empty bluster; is that a bad thing?

[txgoldrush]

Bathaius wrote...

Well, no 'hero' from another story would have accepted the main villain dictating that they pick one of their pre-designed choices that resulted in genocide or mass rewriting of DNA, etc.

So, what is Shepard at the end? Pathetic? Yes. Subjugated? Definetly. Without a choice? For sure. Pick your poison. You lose any way you go, at least your soul, but you'll save 'some', right? It's a dark, bitter ending any way you go, and the only way to get there is to blindly trust that the main villain you've been fighting against the entire time has suddenly gotten a benevolent streak.

Also, bowing out before some of the more offensive people on the network start calling people names.

You really don't get it.

The Catalyst never "dictated" his choices, nevermind once again, he openly tries to dissuade you against the Destroy option, stating the "chaos will come back". You know, going against his purpose of bringing order to the chaos.

And Leviathan sets it up as Shepard being the ideal solution the Catalyst was looking for when the Catalyst decided to control evolution through the relays.

Sorry, its not SHODAN, its not an evil AI...its an AI doing what it always was programmed to do, but did it in a shocking and unpredictable way in its creator's eyes.

[Steelcan]

Never mindNever mind

Modifié par Steelcan, 31 décembre 2012 - 07:12 .

[LucasShark]

iakus wrote...

What's with the quote pyramids?

Mostly txgoldrush being obstinant and missing the giant "ME3 discussion board" sign.

[Necrotron]

txgoldrush wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

Well, no 'hero' from another story would have accepted the main villain dictating that they pick one of their pre-designed choices that resulted in genocide or mass rewriting of DNA, etc.

So, what is Shepard at the end? Pathetic? Yes. Subjugated? Definetly. Without a choice? For sure. Pick your poison. You lose any way you go, at least your soul, but you'll save 'some', right? It's a dark, bitter ending any way you go, and the only way to get there is to blindly trust that the main villain you've been fighting against the entire time has suddenly gotten a benevolent streak.

Also, bowing out before some of the more offensive people on the network start calling people names.

You really don't get it.

I know, I know.  You've been saying that nonstop for months about how stupid and ignornant everyone who didn't like the ending is, and how 'too deep' it was for everyone to understand.  We get it.  I disagree, but I respect your right to have a different opinion.  Nothing wrong with that.

I just take issue with the calling people stupid and the generally offensive tone towards 'anyone who doesn't share their opinion' some people have on these forums.  I think 'Shepard Deserves Better Fans', and there should be a general amount of respect people give each other on these forums (including people who didn't like the ending towards Bioware).  The amount of hate and general rage towards people who disagree on things on here is tiring, and why I don't want to participate.  I know you'll probably lambaste a response about how dumb and wrong I am, but I don't even care or want to argue.  I just want to leave this thread.

Modifié par Bathaius, 31 décembre 2012 - 07:19 .

[txgoldrush]

LucasShark wrote...

iakus wrote...

What's with the quote pyramids?

Mostly txgoldrush being obstinant and missing the giant "ME3 discussion board" sign.

Or did you miss the fact that ME1 and ME2 directly relate to ME3....whoops.

[txgoldrush]

Bathaius wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

Well, no 'hero' from another story would have accepted the main villain dictating that they pick one of their pre-designed choices that resulted in genocide or mass rewriting of DNA, etc.

So, what is Shepard at the end? Pathetic? Yes. Subjugated? Definetly. Without a choice? For sure. Pick your poison. You lose any way you go, at least your soul, but you'll save 'some', right? It's a dark, bitter ending any way you go, and the only way to get there is to blindly trust that the main villain you've been fighting against the entire time has suddenly gotten a benevolent streak.

Also, bowing out before some of the more offensive people on the network start calling people names.

You really don't get it.

I know, I know.  You've been saying that nonstop for months about how stupid and ignornant everyone who didn't like the ending is, and how 'too deep' it was for everyone to understand.  We get it.  I disagree, but I respect your right to have a different opinion.  Nothing wrong with that.

I just take issue with the calling people stupid and the generally offensive tone towards 'anyone who doesn't share their opinion' some people have on these forums.  I think 'Shepard Deserves Better Fans', and there should be a general amount of respect people give each other on these forums (including people who didn't like the ending towards Bioware).  The amount of hate and general rage towards people who disagree on things on here is tiring, and why I don't want to participate.  I know you'll probably lambaste a response about how dumb and wrong I am, but I don't even care or want to argue.  I just want to leave this thread.

The fact is that your opinion is based on misinterpetation, yeah, you don't get it. its really not that hard, its really not that deep, but fans on this board still can't grasp it.

But when the villian goes "you've altered the variables", "the crucible changed me, created new possibilities, but I can't make that happen" and "our future depends on you" and then you talk about the villian subjugting the hero...wow. The facts, the narrative, however, basically points out the other way around, that the Catalyst needed Shepard, that Shepard gave the Catalyst new possibilities, and its only synthesis that is its ideal solution, which makes your post factually incorrect.

[mass perfection]

There's no villain in ME3.It's all grey.

[CosmicGnosis]

mass perfection wrote...

There's no villain in ME3.It's all grey.

I agree with this. I also think it's far more interesting this way. I had always hoped that Mass Effect 3 would end with a moral dilemma. I certainly got that, but I think BioWare made the choices too divisive. That's why there is so much rage in this thread...

[Fixers0]

mass perfection wrote...

There's no villain in ME3.It's all grey.

Untrue, Narrative wise both the Reapers and Cerberus can be considerd the Antagonist of the story, the problem is that the former lacks any meaningfull exposition and the latter recieved exteremly poorly excecuted development.  

[Outsider edge]

Both the Crucible as the Catalyst are being conjured out of thin air in ME3. There's no lead up or hinting in the previous installments and there's no explanation in ME3. Why does Liara find the blueprints in the nick of time u say? It's explained in a comicbook released after the main game! Didn't the game hint at the possibility that there's a reaper overlord hiding somewhere? Sure it does in a DLC released months after the main game!

Before trying too explain all the "spacemagic" and other nonsense contributed too that deep "cough" ending they should have prevented pulling out rabbids out of a hat just too get a main plot going.

Also when going back too ME2 is it ever explained why the reapers wanted too turn humanity into a human reaper? ME3 tells u reapers are made during the harvesting cycles why start early? Why is Harbinger so interested in Shepard? Why can the Collectors make a reaper in their shed while the reapers themselves apparently need the crucible too process people? This and many more questions should have been touched upon if the writers actually wanted too create a coherent trilogy. In the end ME3 apart from some side story arcs feels like a complete standalone game and a poor one at that.

[txgoldrush]

Fixers0 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

There's no villain in ME3.It's all grey.

Untrue, Narrative wise both the Reapers and Cerberus can be considerd the Antagonist of the story, the problem is that the former lacks any meaningfull exposition and the latter recieved exteremly poorly excecuted development.  

Cerberus's activities in ME3 were foreshadowed in ME1.

[txgoldrush]

Outsider edge wrote...

Both the Crucible as the Catalyst are being conjured out of thin air in ME3. There's no lead up or hinting in the previous installments and there's no explanation in ME3. Why does Liara find the blueprints in the nick of time u say? It's explained in a comicbook released after the main game! Didn't the game hint at the possibility that there's a reaper overlord hiding somewhere? Sure it does in a DLC released months after the main game!

Before trying too explain all the "spacemagic" and other nonsense contributed too that deep "cough" ending they should have prevented pulling out rabbids out of a hat just too get a main plot going.

Also when going back too ME2 is it ever explained why the reapers wanted too turn humanity into a human reaper? ME3 tells u reapers are made during the harvesting cycles why start early? Why is Harbinger so interested in Shepard? Why can the Collectors make a reaper in their shed while the reapers themselves apparently need the crucible too process people? This and many more questions should have been touched upon if the writers actually wanted too create a coherent trilogy. In the end ME3 apart from some side story arcs feels like a complete standalone game and a poor one at that.

Didn't the game hint at the possibility that there's a reaper overlord hiding somewhere?

Ummm...Vendetta on Thessia. Someone didn't pay attention.

Both the Crucible as the Catalyst are being conjured out of thin air in ME3. There's no lead up or hinting in the previous installments and there's no explanation in ME3.

Wrong, LotSB, Liara tells you she is going to use the Broker resources to fight the Reapers and that their was Prothean data out there that they have not used. This was a lead up.

[Outsider edge]

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Both the Crucible as the Catalyst are being conjured out of thin air in ME3. There's no lead up or hinting in the previous installments and there's no explanation in ME3. Why does Liara find the blueprints in the nick of time u say? It's explained in a comicbook released after the main game! Didn't the game hint at the possibility that there's a reaper overlord hiding somewhere? Sure it does in a DLC released months after the main game!

Before trying too explain all the "spacemagic" and other nonsense contributed too that deep "cough" ending they should have prevented pulling out rabbids out of a hat just too get a main plot going.

Also when going back too ME2 is it ever explained why the reapers wanted too turn humanity into a human reaper? ME3 tells u reapers are made during the harvesting cycles why start early? Why is Harbinger so interested in Shepard? Why can the Collectors make a reaper in their shed while the reapers themselves apparently need the crucible too process people? This and many more questions should have been touched upon if the writers actually wanted too create a coherent trilogy. In the end ME3 apart from some side story arcs feels like a complete standalone game and a poor one at that.

Didn't the game hint at the possibility that there's a reaper overlord hiding somewhere?

Ummm...Vendetta on Thessia. Someone didn't pay attention.

Both the Crucible as the Catalyst are being conjured out of thin air in ME3. There's no lead up or hinting in the previous installments and there's no explanation in ME3.

Wrong, LotSB, Liara tells you she is going to use the Broker resources to fight the Reapers and that their was Prothean data out there that they have not used. This was a lead up.

I've done two full playthroughs of ME3 and guess i missed that big revelation. So he had perhaps one sentence hinting at the big evil behind everything. That's a great way too bring a big plottwist into play M. Night. Syamalan would be proud.

Also great lead up that is Texas guess you're easily satisfied. So there's prothean data out there that's nice doesn't hint at it being blueprints too a massive prothean weapon that will fix everything though. Also doesn't explain why Liara finds it just in the nick of time. Or the cohort of other questions that aren't being touched upon in ME3.

Asfar as the rest seems you can't bring in good answers or reasoning. If someone as pro Bioware as u can't defend that exposition it says alot in and of itself.

But since i'm having fun can u explain some questions from Leviathan then. Why did the Leviathan's use the Rachni too attack the known galaxy? Why were the Leviathan's thralls making all those biological weapons?
See that's a DLC released months after ME3 and it has the same shoddy writing as the main game. Why are the Leviathan's so willing too go too war and are apparently fully preparing for it yet when the time comes too deliver they are....no no we'll stay here and send 400 ems of support troops.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 31 décembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[txgoldrush]

Outsider edge wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Outsider edge wrote...

Both the Crucible as the Catalyst are being conjured out of thin air in ME3. There's no lead up or hinting in the previous installments and there's no explanation in ME3. Why does Liara find the blueprints in the nick of time u say? It's explained in a comicbook released after the main game! Didn't the game hint at the possibility that there's a reaper overlord hiding somewhere? Sure it does in a DLC released months after the main game!

Before trying too explain all the "spacemagic" and other nonsense contributed too that deep "cough" ending they should have prevented pulling out rabbids out of a hat just too get a main plot going.

Also when going back too ME2 is it ever explained why the reapers wanted too turn humanity into a human reaper? ME3 tells u reapers are made during the harvesting cycles why start early? Why is Harbinger so interested in Shepard? Why can the Collectors make a reaper in their shed while the reapers themselves apparently need the crucible too process people? This and many more questions should have been touched upon if the writers actually wanted too create a coherent trilogy. In the end ME3 apart from some side story arcs feels like a complete standalone game and a poor one at that.

Didn't the game hint at the possibility that there's a reaper overlord hiding somewhere?

Ummm...Vendetta on Thessia. Someone didn't pay attention.

Both the Crucible as the Catalyst are being conjured out of thin air in ME3. There's no lead up or hinting in the previous installments and there's no explanation in ME3.

Wrong, LotSB, Liara tells you she is going to use the Broker resources to fight the Reapers and that their was Prothean data out there that they have not used. This was a lead up.

I've done two full playthroughs of ME3 and guess i missed that big revelation. So he had perhaps one sentence hinting at the big evil behind everything. That's a great way too bring a big plottwist into play M. Night. Syamalan would be proud.

Also great lead up that is Texas guess you're easily satisfied. So there's prothean data out there that's nice doesn't hint at it being blueprints too a massive prothean weapon that will fix everything though. Also doesn't explain why Liara finds it just in the nick of time. Or the cohort of other questions that aren't being touched upon in ME3.

Asfar as the rest seems you can't bring in good answers or reasoning. If someone as pro Bioware as u can't defend that exposition it says alot in and of itself.

But since i'm having fun can u explain some questions from Leviathan then. Why did the Leviathan's use the Rachni too attack the known galaxy? Why were the Leviathan's thralls making all those biological weapons?
See that's a DLC released months after ME3 and it has the same shoddy writing as the main game. Why are the Leviathan's so willing too go too war and are apparently fully preparing for it yet when the time comes too deliver they are....no no we'll stay here and send 400 ems of support troops.

Its all in the narrative, try watching the conversation again. Hell, Shepard even asks "Who is the master?" Doesn't get anymore obvious.

However LotSB does hint at her going on a quest to find the Crucible as well as Cerberus following her. Thats all it takes. The correct character through her effort found it, it was no "coincidence". And speaking of comics...did it not expand on how Tali comes out of nowhere to solve the problem in ME1 of proving Saren guilty? If ME3 is guilty of having a comic make it "less contrived", than so is ME1. And same with ME2 with Redemption.

And when is Leviathan using Rachni in war true? Its not, its a hypothesis from Bryson and one that turns out to be bunk as its not a good lead.

And the Leviathans aren't willing to go to war, but they have to due to Shepards actions, try again.

You fail to even grasp the story.

[Outsider edge]

No you fail too bring in reaonable explanations. Your own headcannon and vague hints that can point too anything doesn't excuse the shoddy writing in ME3. The main plot of ME3 revolves around building the Crucible and finding out what the Catalyst actually is. Both aren't hinted at at all in the previous games. Compare the foreshadowing in ME3 too the foreshadowing done in a game like Kotor. It's differences are light and day. Yes when the plottwist happens and you find out your Revan it's a big surprise but when u think back too prior in the story you see all the subtle hints thrown your way. That's truly great storytelling. In ME3 the Crucible just appears out of thin air with hardly any (imo no) prior evidence it ever existed. Same goes for the Catalyst even when he's apparently hinted at on Thessia which is like 75% into the final game no hints at all even before that or in the previous games.

And a comic that explains why the main focus of ME3's main plot is found in the nick of time is just astonishingly bad. There's something called suspension of disbelief but ME3's main plot's convieniences go well beyond that.

So no i have a good grasp on the story thank you. I just recognize it as being extremely poorly written.

[Hazegurl]

I agree, the writing leaves much to be desired. it's actually so bad to the point where I sorta think they all deserve to be harvested except for my Shep. Asari sits on prothean knowledge for centuries that explains the Catalyst, Reapers, and Indoctrination yet an Asari councilor thinks the Reapers are a myth, offers zero assistance, yet tells you about this info near the end of the game. Now the crucible data is hidden on Mars? The game was still good but the story was a mess.

But yeah my RenShep always turn out to be the next villain of the story even with Destroy. Taking over a crippled galaxy is fun.

[AlanC9]

Fixers0 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

There's no villain in ME3.It's all grey.

Untrue, Narrative wise both the Reapers and Cerberus can be considerd the Antagonist of the story, the problem is that the former lacks any meaningfull exposition and the latter recieved exteremly poorly excecuted development.  

They're antagonists, sure. I'm not sure how good a fit "villain" is. Cerberus are a bunch of indoctrinated stooges who think they're doing the right thing. Then again, so are the Reapers. But "villain" is a pretty squishy concept anyway.

[Samtheman63]

picking either control or synthesis would make you a villain or stupid depending on your reasoning

Modifié par Samtheman63, 31 décembre 2012 - 05:37 .

[txgoldrush]

Outsider edge wrote...

No you fail too bring in reaonable explanations. Your own headcannon and vague hints that can point too anything doesn't excuse the shoddy writing in ME3. The main plot of ME3 revolves around building the Crucible and finding out what the Catalyst actually is. Both aren't hinted at at all in the previous games. Compare the foreshadowing in ME3 too the foreshadowing done in a game like Kotor. It's differences are light and day. Yes when the plottwist happens and you find out your Revan it's a big surprise but when u think back too prior in the story you see all the subtle hints thrown your way. That's truly great storytelling. In ME3 the Crucible just appears out of thin air with hardly any (imo no) prior evidence it ever existed. Same goes for the Catalyst even when he's apparently hinted at on Thessia which is like 75% into the final game no hints at all even before that or in the previous games.

And a comic that explains why the main focus of ME3's main plot is found in the nick of time is just astonishingly bad. There's something called suspension of disbelief but ME3's main plot's convieniences go well beyond that.

So no i have a good grasp on the story thank you. I just recognize it as being extremely poorly written.

Let the hypocrisy flow.

The Collectors are the plotline of ME2, but they sure weren't foreshadowed in ME1. Hint: Not everything has to be foreshadowed right away and NOT EVERYTHING EVEN HAS TO BE FORESHADOWED!!!!!!!! For instance, beofre the prequel Star Wars trilogy, the twist that Vader was Luke's father was not even foreshaodwed, but it was still an effective plot twist. Hell, things can be foreshadowed effectively moments before they happen.

And its not my headcanon, its your ignorance of the narrative, like how many people who hate Cerberus in ME3 ignore the fact that it was foreshadowed and consistant with ME1.

KOTOR, great storytelling? Like as a Light sided character, Bastila contrively being turned to the dark side to force a conflict. KOTOR II in its final form is great storytelling, the first KOTOR is overrated but was a hit because it was a fresh take on Star Wars at the time. And don't excuse Drew K's contrivance. The last 3 hours of Jade Empire is more contrived than anything in ME3.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 31 décembre 2012 - 07:25 .

[Thaa_solon]

There was no foreshadowing of shepard becoming the next spacehitler, and yet for the sake of SPACEMAGIC "Bow down to Spacehitler Shepard"

[eddieoctane]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

"you may have to go to your grave carrying the weight of crimes...." = You're going to bite the dust in the end. Should have read this. Didn't read. Didn't keep up. Probably wouldn't have bought the game.

You could die in the end of ME2. An indication that death is possible in ME3 meant nothing. If the line was "you will have to go to the grave", that'd be a fair point.

[Funkdrspot]

The beauty of the endings that most seem to glaze over in their attempt to hammer down why their opinion is best and everyone elses is evil...is that the endings are what you make them. Not only does your Shep echo your personality, but how you perceive the endings is half of the equation.

Which is what Bioware was originally aiming for. Is your 'control' shep a dictator who wants power or is he a guardian angel? Is your destroy shep doing it because he wants certainty in the resolution or b/c he doesn't give a poo about other species or lives? Does your synthesis shep do it b/c its a permanent solution to synth vs organic or b/c he's like magneto and wants to force evolution on everyone?

Refuse sheps are self-important idiots though. There's literally zero logical reason to refuse based on morals when your morals will get EVERYONE killed. And not even like a street, city or county ful of people but something on the magnitude of 100 earths full of people. You've got to be one self important douche to think your morality trumphs all those lives

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In Destroy and Synthesis, you're asked "Can I justify this", and anwering "yes" does not make you a villain. In Control, you're asked "Would I trust myself with this power", and yet again, answering "yes" does not make you a villain.

The Catalyst would answer yes to both regarding its final solution to the organic synthetic problem, so does that make it not a villain? 

[Funkdrspot]

Thaa_solon wrote...

There was no foreshadowing of shepard becoming the next spacehitler, and yet for the sake of SPACEMAGIC "Bow down to Spacehitler Shepard"

it always seemed funny to me that those that lob the harshest criticism, have paid attention the least. control and destroy have been foreshadowed since leaving earth with Anderson and Mars with TIM