26 réponses à ce sujet

[CptPatch]

So you're in the Fade trying to get at the Sloth demon.  It's only _you_ that has the strength of will to break free.  (And wander around picking up attribute bonuses.)  NO MATTER WHAT YOUR WILLPOWER SCORE IS.

Okay, I'll grant that there has to be a linear plot development, and the story IS about your Hero and not some NPC.  But doesn't it srike you as extremely peculiar that someone as strongwilled as Wynne got sucked in that easily?  And she has _decades_ of experience with Magic and the Fade.  You, otoh, know zip about either unless you're a Mage, and even then, it seems like just yesterday that you were just starting to dabble in Magic.

Anyway, it would have been quite useful if I could have given some of those attribute gains to Wynne.  And by rights, it really should have been her that breaks everybody out.

[And btw, where was Wynne's guardian angel while she was trapped IN THE FADE?]

[TUHD]

At the last comment... it was there, but it is an inner spirit she's got no control of... the sleep attack came perhaps too fast, and it was a pretty strong one too, while the spirit within Wynne is/was pretty weak



Also... of course you need a hero (you) who is in the end stronger, smarter and better then anyone else in Ferelden

[jsachun]

It's not so much the strength of your magic that determines your resistence against the sloth, but he traps you with power of persuasion & conviction & slowly drains you of your lifeforce.

[stribies]

It's mainly because your character stared at some goats and gained some special abilities that nobody else has.

[fantasypisces]

Even stranger than Wynne is Morrigan, who doesn't even believe her dream (along with Sten) while Wynne does.



She literally says when you show up; "Ahh finally you are here, hurry up and kill this demon so we can be on our way"

[jsachun]

Wynne also drained all her lifeforce protecting one of the mages before meeting the Warden, and is on burrowed life from her Guardian spirit. Maybe this expalins why she is so weak against a powerful demon. 

[TUHD]

Perhaps because of Morrigan's life with Flemeth and Flemeth's teaching... the Circle teaches some, but not the way Flemeth seems to have taught Morrigan

[CptPatch]

Odd about Morrigan. You would think that she would KNOW that staying in that dream would eventually kill her body. Can you imagine _Morrigan_ sitting around waiting for someone to come rescue her?



And, btw, when I have Shale on the team, I'm unable to actually free her from her cage. She just shows up for the finale with the others.

[Cybercat999]

Sten is aware its dream as well, only he prefers the dream where his friends are alive over reality.

[CptPatch]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Sten is aware its dream as well, only he prefers the dream where his friends are alive over reality.

Yeah, well, he was all mentally psyched to die back in that cage, so no surprise there.

[Cybercat999]

Oghren is not hard to convince its a dream as well. Alistair just proves how stupid he is, but Wynne boggles the mind - as a mage she should not be so easy to get trapped. Maybe she is not as smart as she likes to pretend to be either

[JJM152]

CptPatch wrote...

Odd about Morrigan. You would think that she would KNOW that staying in that dream would eventually kill her body. Can you imagine _Morrigan_ sitting around waiting for someone to come rescue her?

And, btw, when I have Shale on the team, I'm unable to actually free her from her cage. She just shows up for the finale with the others.

Morrigan doesn't exactly strike me as someone who would do something dangerous unless it either greatly benefitted her, or she had no other choice. Perhaps if she had waited there for a long time and it was apparent that no one was going to come and help her with the demons, then she would attack them first.

I mean, really... Morrigan talks pretty big, but if you think about it, she's perfectly content to get the PC to do her dirty work for her and stay out of harms way. 

[Sidreus]

Wynne is way more stupid than Morrigan that one is for sure.

One time I hoped I can get rid of unwanted party members by leaving them in fade... but that idiot follows you everywhere like a lost puppy so you must wait until Landsmeet.

[Cybercat999]

Sidreus wrote...

Wynne is way more stupid than Morrigan that one is for sure.

One time I hoped I can get rid of unwanted party members by leaving them in fade... but that idiot follows you everywhere like a lost puppy so you must wait until Landsmeet.

No, you have option to kill Wynne right away, or take her through the Circle quest and kill her right before Uldred fight (what effectively leaves you without a healer so is bit silly imo).
I just kill her instead of letting her join.

[CptPatch]

JJM152 wrote...
I mean, really... Morrigan talks pretty big, but if you think about it, she's perfectly content to get the PC to do her dirty work for her and stay out of harms way.

But just think about her POV.  From her perspective, would she even think anyone in the party was smart enough to escape the trap on their own?  Yet, she would undoubtedly be aware that with each second that passes, her body in the Real World dies a little bit more.

I've never taken Morrigan through the Tower because I always have Leliana (lockpicker) and Alistair/Shale (tank) and Wynne is a mandatory choice.  I would imagine that in her dream, she's surrounded by sycophants chanting "Your Awesomeness!  We adore you!"  Or essentially a setting where everyone is constantly acknowledging her innate superiority.

[Cybercat999]

CptPatch wrote...

I've never taken Morrigan through the Tower because I always have Leliana (lockpicker) and Alistair/Shale (tank) and Wynne is a mandatory choice.  I would imagine that in her dream, she's surrounded by sycophants chanting "Your Awesomeness!  We adore you!"  Or essentially a setting where everyone is constantly acknowledging her innate superiority.

I play with respec mod and I set Morrigan as SH right away. So Wynne is no choice at all for me.
In Morrigan dream she only has Flemeth bugging her what just proves she had never grown out of her love/hate relationship with her Mother, basically how immature and vulnerable she really is.

[darkshadow136]

CptPatch wrote...

So you're in the Fade trying to get at the Sloth demon.  It's only _you_ that has the strength of will to break free.  (And wander around picking up attribute bonuses.)  NO MATTER WHAT YOUR WILLPOWER SCORE IS.

Okay, I'll grant that there has to be a linear plot development, and the story IS about your Hero and not some NPC.  But doesn't it srike you as extremely peculiar that someone as strongwilled as Wynne got sucked in that easily?  And she has _decades_ of experience with Magic and the Fade.  You, otoh, know zip about either unless you're a Mage, and even then, it seems like just yesterday that you were just starting to dabble in Magic.

Anyway, it would have been quite useful if I could have given some of those attribute gains to Wynne.  And by rights, it really should have been her that breaks everybody out.

[And btw, where was Wynne's guardian angel while she was trapped IN THE FADE?]

Yep they dropped the ball with Wynne where it really makes her look stupid not strong. She semi died fighting a demon and according to her she has  an adavanced understanding of the fade and the spirits both good and evil. Then a good spirit of the fade kinda possesses her and brings her back to life and power. Then she encounters the fade with the sloth demon and is deceived right off the bat pathetic. Sten, your charaacter, and Morrigan never fall for it and Sten is not even a mage and he can see the deception, and Morrigan well she's Morrigan .

It was poor writing I think on the companies part it broke from continuity of her character as outlined earlier in the game and makes her look like a weak hypocrite.

[Sidreus]

Cybercat999 wrote...

Sidreus wrote...

Wynne is way more stupid than Morrigan that one is for sure.

One time I hoped I can get rid of unwanted party members by leaving them in fade... but that idiot follows you everywhere like a lost puppy so you must wait until Landsmeet.

No, you have option to kill Wynne right away, or take her through the Circle quest and kill her right before Uldred fight (what effectively leaves you without a healer so is bit silly imo).
I just kill her instead of letting her join.

Oh I wasn't mentioning her. I either kill her at the first encounter or during ashes (heh just messing with ashes to kill her) or If I am on my good day I leave her in tower. The one I was mentioning was biggest idiot in the game; Alistair. I really really hoped I can leave him in fade with his gold digging sister.:happy:

[Cybercat999]

Sidreus wrote...

Cybercat999 wrote...

Sidreus wrote...

Wynne is way more stupid than Morrigan that one is for sure.

One time I hoped I can get rid of unwanted party members by leaving them in fade... but that idiot follows you everywhere like a lost puppy so you must wait until Landsmeet.

No, you have option to kill Wynne right away, or take her through the Circle quest and kill her right before Uldred fight (what effectively leaves you without a healer so is bit silly imo).
I just kill her instead of letting her join.

Oh I wasn't mentioning her. I either kill her at the first encounter or during ashes (heh just messing with ashes to kill her) or If I am on my good day I leave her in tower. The one I was mentioning was biggest idiot in the game; Alistair. I really really hoped I can leave him in fade with his gold digging sister.:happy:

Ah I misunderstood you.
Well the only good thing with Alistair in Fade is an option to call him stupid oaf. I never miss that one.

Otherwise I keep him in party for tanking but I never talk to him and when he triggers some cutscene esc is my friend. My last game I went through the rose and all the jazz, waited for him to stutter and ask me for sex - and then I dumped him for Leli in the very next cutscene. -10 only, just shows how big wuss he really is.

[ArathWoeeye]

I don't think it's about Wynne's knowledge. It's not about anyones magic prowess or past knowledge. It's about their will. How unbreakable they are. Wynne, partially thanks to her guardian spirit, manages herself and tidies up pretty fast, but she is far away from being unbreakable. When you talk to her, you can see how fragile she actually is. She has the will to live, but she's also ready to accept death or failure. She also has secret and/or obvious doubts about her past and her choices as an elder woman, regardless of what she says. As far as I remember, her fade trap reflected that, sort of.



Morrigan is a better example of being unbreakable and in the fade, she is aware of what's going on. About her waiting there... I think it's a bit of a design thing. I mean we can't really know how long it took for Warden to get to her.. or how long she had been there... or how long does the time translate between them (like warden may have spent hours but morrigan may have sensed only 2 seconds) since it's not real world. So it's explainable, but more so.. you just let that one pass (sorry, cant find an idiom with my english:P)

[JJM152]

darkshadow136 wrote...

CptPatch wrote...

So you're in the Fade trying to get at the Sloth demon.  It's only _you_ that has the strength of will to break free.  (And wander around picking up attribute bonuses.)  NO MATTER WHAT YOUR WILLPOWER SCORE IS.

Okay, I'll grant that there has to be a linear plot development, and the story IS about your Hero and not some NPC.  But doesn't it srike you as extremely peculiar that someone as strongwilled as Wynne got sucked in that easily?  And she has _decades_ of experience with Magic and the Fade.  You, otoh, know zip about either unless you're a Mage, and even then, it seems like just yesterday that you were just starting to dabble in Magic.

Anyway, it would have been quite useful if I could have given some of those attribute gains to Wynne.  And by rights, it really should have been her that breaks everybody out.

[And btw, where was Wynne's guardian angel while she was trapped IN THE FADE?]

Yep they dropped the ball with Wynne where it really makes her look stupid not strong. She semi died fighting a demon and according to her she has  an adavanced understanding of the fade and the spirits both good and evil. Then a good spirit of the fade kinda possesses her and brings her back to life and power. Then she encounters the fade with the sloth demon and is deceived right off the bat pathetic. Sten, your charaacter, and Morrigan never fall for it and Sten is not even a mage and he can see the deception, and Morrigan well she's Morrigan .

It was poor writing I think on the companies part it broke from continuity of her character as outlined earlier in the game and makes her look like a weak hypocrite.

I bolded the relevant part, but basically Morrigan is an emotionally weak hypocrite. She's socially awkward, emotionally stunted and immature. She hides this behind a layer of false bravado and an outwardly cynical demeanor. She certainly doesn't seem very brave, she practically has to be pushed out of the Kokari wilds by Flemeth, and then later if you do her quest, she won't come along to battle Flemeth and all you have is her word (something that she has admitted to not being worth very much) that it's necessary.

She's actually a very tragic figure in the game and unfortunately she doesn't experience any real character development either. This is one of the things that BG2 had all over DA:O. You could actually see your NPC companions develop over time (especially if you were in a relationship with them). In this game, you just tell them what they want tohear to get +Approval points. It's really a poor implementation and I hope they go back to doing things like they did in pretty much all their previous RPG's.

Anyone who ever turned Viconia from BG2 into a "good" character knows exactly what I'm talking about. You don't have that depth in this game. It's pretty much the only thing that disapointed me out of an otherwise excellent game.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TUHD wrote...
Also... of course you need a hero (you) who is in the end stronger, smarter and better then anyone else in Ferelden

I personally hate those kinds of heroes. I hate games/moveis that venerate a specific character (in this case the PC) and push other in the sidelines.
I hate it when other characters have to be dumbed down or made incompetent, just so the hero can shine brighter or be more Speshu!.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:10 .

[Kleon]

Considering Wynnes age and events that she took part in short amount of time:
Battle at Ostagar, after some time she returns to the tower.
Probably the same day rebel at the tower bigins.
She defeats a powerfull demon, completly exhausted after fight somehow "dies", held back by the spirit.
Than she is holding barrier probably for quite some time.
After hero comes she keeps fighting. That seems to be a lot in my opinion, there is no wonder she coudnt resist the demon which sends party to the fade.

Modifié par Kunkryst, 07 janvier 2010 - 02:35 .

[Gwinever]

The reason why the PC, Sten and Morrigan aren't fooled in the fade is because it doesn't make sense with their last memories.
The PC knows it's fake as he/she never saw weishaubt fortress, knows duncan is dead and has been told on numerous occasions the ds thread never ceases to exist.
Sten knows it's fake as he has seen his companions dead and it isn't very logical for them to be suddenly alive again, but is content with this truth as it's better than to live with the disgrace.
Morrigan knows it's fake as it's just a sloppy copy of her mothers memories.

Now the reason wynne fals for it, (this is IMO) is cause she just resently tried to save these very apprentices and failed besides the one you meet when you meet wynne.
Shale falls for it as her strongest memory is being frozen for decades in that position.
Alistar is just stupid:P

Got no clue on Oghren and Zevran as i have never taken them with me to the CoM, and Lelianne just doesn't make sense either.

[CptPatch]

Since we're discussing Wynne so much in general, (and because I am soooooo lazy), here's something of a critique I wrote about Wynne for a game review website:



Geriatric Trainees

Adventuring is for young people. How else can you explain starting characters that have next to nothing in the way of skills and abilities? (Also known as being Level 1-3.) When a game such as Dragon Age: Origins introduces a main NPC that is nearing retirement age, yet that character has abilities equivalent to a fantasy world's version of a high school graduate, it seems quite innocuous, to say the least. _Especially_ when the character in question has a backstory that is thoroughly fleshed out. The more you see of that character's biography, the more you've got to be asking yourself, "Has this character been on Hold all those years or what?"

http://www.hookedgam...c_trainees.html



[I acknowledge in advance that there are a couple errors in the details about Wynne.]