11 réponses à ce sujet

[johnnyrags]

So i spent the greater part of the day reading over the forums for anything and everything DW, Solo NM, and Rogue related and have found 1 single thing in common: I am utterly confused. People talk about the benefits of Archery using combat stealth/AoS over and over, drilling through the theorycraft of "is dex shortbow better than cun longbow?", or that everyone has already tried/done a DW rogue and wanted to try archery.

What i am most confused about now is if i choose to go DW Rogue (non archery ofcourse, but i suppose the occasional AoS isnt going to bother me), what do I need? from my research, str to 16 at creation, cun to about 20 or 22, depending on items for the bonuses, and then dump about 70+ into dex. I feel pretty confident here, with the dex build, because to do solo NM it seems like the defense and attack rating from dex is critical to keeping myself along though the needed longevity of some fights while stealth is down.

This leads me to the debate on specializations. Assassin? Ranger? Duelist? im going to assume that i can write off bard considering that I will be going dex. So does that mean Ranger/Assassin? Ranger/Duelist? or Assassin/Duelist? I would think that with my lack of overall use of ranged combat (except for pulling and AoS), it would be in my best interest to skip Ranger too, unless i missed something. Granted, it will make the earlier game rediculously more difficult with no wolf to kite tank while i unload arrows into the Ogre, but I suppose I can always give that a shot with a save game right outside the stairs and see. Duelist sounds like it is the prime candidate for the fact that all of its 4 talents are quite useful for dishing it out melee. Assassin seems useful, not to mention the bonuses, but does it outweigh Duelist? I suppose some advice here would be nice.

Next is skills and talents. I dont intend to use any other party members unless i am forced to, so lockpicking would nice to have, although it seems the benefit that most people talk about most isnt getting every chest for xp, but for the loot and the cash. wouldnt something like 1 skill in pickpocketing pick up the difference? there are a lot of people that talk about pickpocketing as being a must, and i think that it will be necessary. Coercion, i am not too entirely worried about this unless its a must, simply because i'll spend an hour on a single fight trying different attack plans until i get past a fight rather than just trying to smooth talk my way out. My cun will not be high enough to save me any points if i were to go for full cunning, unless someone can show me that i need the cun. Momentum seems like such a no-brainer, but Riposte? i read mixed reviews here, namely that it was an amazing skill to some, and that to someone that I cannot remember their handle, it's garbage and that they have only gotten it to proc on white monsters only about 40% of the time. beyond that it seems kind of useless for larger fights. 2 more skill points back into my pool? or maybe misuse? i dont know, someone set me straight please.

So far i've started as a human rogue noble, but that can easily be remedied if someone has a compelling argument to have me reroll.

Let the discussion begin! hopefully someone can outline a build or two and we can hash out pros and cons or something.

props ot TOrin3, Timortis, Haplose, and Disco for having some great threads about Rogues

[Haplose]

Well, since you want melee, I think I would advice Assasin / Duelist.
Assasin for the damage boosts (not that great without much Cun, but still something), but perhaps most importantly for Feast of the Fallen. Contrary to what many say, Stamina was important for my Rogue. Dirty Fighting is awesome with Coup-de-Grace (cannot be resisted!).

Riposte... I'm not sure about it's effectiveness with such a low Cun (I would aim for some 35-40 Cun.. to get some light boosts from Assasin, save 1 point in Coercion and maybe 1 Deft Hands Talent - but you might not care about those). But having another source of stun has to be good, especially if you're going solo.

Duelist will help with Attack and Defence (and you won't have any outside buffs, so that's good.. especially when you get debuffed), but most importantly will let you activate Pinpoint Strikes for 15 seconds every minute. Which are autocrits, even in Dual Striking stance.

Stealing is not that special I would say. It's just some extra spare change. It adds over time if you're systematic, but really nothing special. The locked chests should be a bit better, but mostly it's still some extra cash.

As for the origin, all are good. Human is fine. Maybe the Noble Dwarf stands out a bit because of his racial 10% spell resistance and higher income if selling to a specific merchant - and, especially as a solo char, you will want the best possible equipment as soon as possible.

It won't be easy. Dirty Fighting and Scattershot spamming groups of enemies are particularly annoying... and deadly. And of course all the mages you don't manage to kill before they cast 1 spell...
So archers and mages are your primary concern. Mellee fighters are less of a problem, though occasionally they will probably knockdown and stun you as well. Oh and Overwhelm... and Grab.. and Ram... I can think of a few very tough bosses to solo in melee, as well. I think I'm starting to appreciate my 2h 100% magic resistant, Indomitable dwarf... Umm.. actually... good luck to you... I think your best bet for a number of fights will be a smart use of traps and bombs.... Don't forget poisons either.

Modifié par Haplose, 07 janvier 2010 - 10:51 .

[Lord Phoebus]

Haplose wrote...

Riposte... I'm not sure about it's effectiveness with such a low Cun (I would aim for some 35-40 Cun.. to get some light boosts from Assasin, save 1 point in Coercion and maybe 1 Deft Hands Talent - but you might not care about those). But having another source of stun has to be good, especially if you're going solo.

I don't think Riposte is based off of cunning, it's a warrior talent too and that wouldn't make much sense.  Enemies get a physical resistance check, but I think it's either against your attack score or your strength score.

You can also use Punisher for a knockdown which can be helpful, but I don't think coup-de grace works with it.

I didn't do a solo Rogue but I did let my rogue solo from the Landsmeet to the end.  I used pretty much the same build the OP did but I increased my strength high enough for a 38 strength with items.  Having 41 armor made a big difference towards my survivability.

Remember to run either towards an ogre or away from it when it rams.  You get thrown far enough away from the ogre that it will break the ram spam pattern. 

[Haplose]

Well, I would also expect Riposte to be Str or Dex based. But some people have checked the actual scripts and it has proven to be Cun based. Which, granted, is inconsistant with the rest of that line.

[Lord Phoebus]

Haplose wrote...

Well, I would also expect Riposte to be Str or Dex based. But some people have checked the actual scripts and it has proven to be Cun based. Which, granted, is inconsistant with the rest of that line.

That's really odd.  I wonder whether it's intended or a bug.

[tetracycloide]

Duelist is essential for solo play as a DW rogue, I think. Duelist not only offers a +10 attack/defense bonus from one sustain but also pinpoint strike which, as a solo player, is the best way to spike a target since you won't have a tank to open up backstabs much or a mage to CC. Assassin as a solo player, is less useful than with a party, since the only backstabs you'll ever get are from stuns, which as a solo player aren't as prevelant as you might think, and opening from stealth. Plus all the damage bonuses are cunning based. The stamina restoration only works on kills from backstabs as well and those will be rare. Still, unless the build has the points to max a ranger pet (read: all 4 points or it's not worth it), taking assassin and only specing mark of death might be the best option, dex and crit% are nice specilization bonuses on a solo player (odd that a specilization that focuses on backstabs adds crit %, a stat that's irrelevent when backstabbing).

Modifié par tetracycloide, 07 janvier 2010 - 05:21 .

[Haplose]

tetracycloide wrote...

Duelist is essential for solo play as a DW rogue, I think. Duelist not only offers a +10 attack/defense bonus from one sustain but also pinpoint strike which, as a solo player, is the best way to spike a target since you won't have a tank to open up backstabs much or a mage to CC. Assassin as a solo player, is less useful than with a party, since the only backstabs you'll ever get are from stuns, which as a solo player aren't as prevelant as you might think, and opening from stealth. Plus all the damage bonuses are cunning based. The stamina restoration only works on kills from backstabs as well and those will be rare. Still, unless the build has the points to max a ranger pet (read: all 4 points or it's not worth it), taking assassin and only specing mark of death might be the best option, dex and crit% are nice specilization bonuses on a solo player (odd that a specilization that focuses on backstabs adds crit %, a stat that's irrelevent when backstabbing).

If my limited experience in playing a Rogue scout solo ahead of the party are worth something, I wouldn't call kills from backstabs rare. Key is getting Coup-de-Grace ASAP. I frequently used stun-backstab to death tactic. Dirty Fighting has a short cooldown, is cheap and cannot be resisted. Riposte is a nice alternative, with another cooldown timer.

Modifié par Haplose, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:19 .

[johnnyrags]

so what i am taking from this currently is that i should definitely go a little deeper into cunning so that assassin give me more of a boost, but beyond that, everything else is a go, including riposte and feast of fallen to speed up down time. get combat stealth and coup de grace asap, and beyond that the standard stuff. probably will need the full 4 skills of lockpick, and i will probably pass on pickpocketing all together as i will be selling everyones gear and all gear that i wont be using. i am certainly ready for a long playthrough and a lot of saves/reloads.



any other pointers people want to toss out there or suggestions on things to change before i get underway?

[CBGB]

Maviarab's note above is worth considering. With a Dex build, you'll have a far higher defense.



In Discobird's excellent Thread on DW Rogue damage, she confirms what most people say here: Cunning builds do the most damage, when adding the bonus from the Assassin line.

But Dex rogues are close, and they have a slightly higher attack rating and far higher defense. Without a party to buff you, that's a viable route, and you can boost Lockpicking with the points you no longer need to put into Lethality. You can also go with Dualist/Ranger if you chose, since the Cunning bonus from Assassin then isn't essential.

That's not 'better' than a Cunning build, but it's a good alternative.

johnnyrags wrote...
probably will need the full 4 skills of lockpick, and i will probably pass on pickpocketing all together as i will be selling everyones gear and all gear that i wont be using.

If you do go with Cunning - it's by far the most popular, though really, a Defense build is viable - then you won't need all the points of Lockpicking (see this breakdown of Rogue skills). If going with Cunning, it's also probably worth at least a point in Pickpocketing if only for the cash boost you can get, especially early on. In either case, a single point in Poison is a big help for access to that line.

Going solo? You might find the Survival skills helpful, too.

[knownastherat]

It is possible to build for STR/CUN/DEX rogue too. Strength for best armors a wide choice of weapons, Cunning to save points on Coercion, Lock-picking and/or Stealing, and Dexterity for the rest.

Such build would probably be far from what could be called "optimal", however it is versatile while playable, kind of Jack-of-all-trades. It is not an untouchable build, like Dex one,but it can do the job.

This thread:

Rogue mechanics explained - http://social.biowar...66/index/243304

explains well how to open every lock and pass persuade checks without reaching the highest ranks in particular Skills, thus saving points for Survival and Stealing for example.

edit: it is not fair you type faster CBGB!

Modifié par knownastherat, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:55 .

[tetracycloide]

Haplose wrote...

If my limited experience in playing a Rogue scout solo ahead of the party are worth something, I wouldn't call kills from backstabs rare. Key is getting Coup-de-Grace ASAP. I frequently used stun-backstab to death tactic. Dirty Fighting has a short cooldown, is cheap and cannot be resisted. Riposte is a nice alternative, with another cooldown timer.

There are more important things than damage to a solo rogue.  I'd rank combat stealth and device mastery much higher than coup-de-grace, for example, because there are literally no kills that would be impossible without coup-de-grace but several fights where combat stealth and device mastery (disarming traps) transform them from absolute nightmares for a solo rogue to realtively managable encounters with the right strategy.  Antivan leather boots are also in a strongly locked chest and spell resist gear is important on a solo rogue for several fights.

For solo there is really only one good stat option, dexterity.  Cunning is only an option if the utility of defense is ignored, which in a group build makes perfect sense but in solo play does not.  Strength and con have never been very good stat choices for rogue, I'd just as soon get magic or willpower.

This is a fantastic, if a touch patronising at times, walkthrough of not only talent and attribute builds but encounter tactics on a DW solo rogue.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:12 .