587 réponses à ce sujet

[IntoTheDarkness]

I think the final choice of the game is no-brainer because siding with the templars is unreasonable given the circumstances.

Right of Annulment of all innocent and guilty mages alike without sorting them out just because one mage OUTSIDE of the circle went berserk and assassinated the grand cleric? Even with an assumption that Anders had many accomplices in the circle to help him with the assassination, it's no reason to annahilate all mages of the circle. It's like castrating every male for the possible danger of sexual assualt just because of one sex offender. It's that absurd.

It's true that many mages had been practicing a blood magic and even the fisrt enchanter could be a part of it, but why should templars outright annahilate everyone instead of doing investigation/interrogations? The first enchanter would have been forced to accept any terms the templars demand to search the blood mages after an assassination of the grand cleric. Meridith's call for the right of annulment is uncalled for, and I don't see why would any players decide to side with the templars unless they just bring personal feelings to cloud their judgement.


If you have chosen to help templars, what were your reasons behind that choice?

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 31 décembre 2012 - 10:36 .

[thats1evildude]

Mages are dangerous and cannot be allowed to roam free. Also, the mages are almost certainly doomed anyway and siding with the templars minimizes casaulties.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 31 décembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

thats1evildude wrote...

Mages are dangerous and cannot be allowed to roam free. Also, the mages are almost certainly doomed anyway and siding with the templars minimizes casaulties.

By that logic, we should kill every mage on Thedas and declare a war on Tavinter, as well as making it law to kill all babies born with magical talents. I know not one will pass such judgement on mages in reality if there were thousands of judges, so commiting a genocide simply becuase they are dangerous seem rather extreme.

Keeping a close eye on a particular ethnicity because of terrorists from that background is understandable, though it borders on racism, but killing them all because they are possibly dangerous? That's genocide and a witch hunt.

Do you realize the first enchanter willingly submits himself before the templars, only asking the justice is brought upon those who are guilty? If mages are dangerous and should not be allowed to roam free, why shouldn't you accept that offer instead of killing them all?

I understand people will demand vengeonce because the grand cleric was well respected, but it's too weak a reason to support the massacre Meridith seeks.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 31 décembre 2012 - 11:41 .

[thats1evildude]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

By that logic, we should kill every mage on Thedas and declare a war on Tavinter, as well as making it law to kill all babies born with magical talents.

They did declare war on Tevinter. Aside from Andraste's war, the Chantry launched a couple of Exalted Marches against the Imperium.

There was ample evidence that the Kirkwall Circle was corrupted beyond redemption and that many of the mages within had turned to blood magic. It's one thing to slaughter people who "might" be dangerous, but blood mages are dangerous, and agreeing to defend Kirkwall's Circle means unleashing a bunch of them into the world.

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Do you realize the first enchanter willingly submits himself before the templars?

An offer made out of desperation, and only because he believes his own crimes will not be discovered.

Incidentally, had Hawke not been there, the Harvester by itself could have slaughtered half the city before it was stopped.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 31 décembre 2012 - 11:44 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

thats1evildude wrote...


There was ample evidence that the Kirkwall Circle was corrupted beyond redemption and that many of the mages within had turned to blood magic. It's one thing to slaughter people who "might" be dangerous, but blood mages are dangerous, and agreeing to defend Kirkwall's Circle means unleashing a bunch of them into the world.

How do you pass judgement without proper investigation? If Meridith didn't call the right of annulment, the templars would have been able to search through the circle mages thoroughly to sort out blood mages, and how exacly is that circumstance 'beyond redemption'? Are you suggesting templars are completely incapable of finidng blood mages even under mages cooperation which would nullify many events in the plot(including Meridith asking Ordino to search through mage's belongings, mage origins of DA:O, the point of templars existance, and more)?

The circle was not beyond redemption. Templars were still in control of the circle, and the assassination of the grand cleric would only have strengthened their position if it weren't for Meridith asking all mages to die.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 31 décembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[thats1evildude]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

How do you even pass judgement without investigation? If Meridith didn't call for the right of annulment, the templars would have been able to search through the circle thoroughly to find out blood mages, and how is that circumstances 'beyond redemption'?. Are you suggesting templars are completely incapable of finidng blood mages even under mages cooperation which would nullify many events in the plot(including Meridith asking Ordino to search through mage's belongings, mage origins of DA:O, the point of templars existance, and more)?

First, I don't need to investigate whether there are blood mages in Kirkwall's circle. I know they're there, because I've fought them.

Second, it is not as easy to identify blood mages as you think. Sure, there are things that raise alarm bells — books on demon-summoning, components for certain dark rituals, and so forth. But the only way to truly identify a maleficar is if they use blood magic.

Sure, the templars watch mages to make sure they aren't corrupted, but it isn't an exact science. If the templars could easily identify blood mages, then Uldred would never have been able to carry out his rebellion in Ferelden, would he?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 janvier 2013 - 12:05 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

thats1evildude wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

How do you even pass judgement without investigation? If Meridith didn't call for the right of annulment, the templars would have been able to search through the circle thoroughly to find out blood mages, and how is that circumstances 'beyond redemption'?. Are you suggesting templars are completely incapable of finidng blood mages even under mages cooperation which would nullify many events in the plot(including Meridith asking Ordino to search through mage's belongings, mage origins of DA:O, the point of templars existance, and more)?

First, I don't need to investigate whether there are blood mages in Kirkwall's circle. I know they're there, because I've fought them.

Second, it is not as easy to identify blood mages as you think. Sure, there are things that raise alarm bells — books on demon-summoning, components for certain dark rituals, and so forth. But the only way to truly identify a maleficar is if they use blood magic.

Sure, the templars watch mages to make sure they aren't corrupted, but it isn't an exact science. If the templars could easily identify blood mages, then Uldred would never have been able to carry out his rebellion in Ferelden, would he?

That's not the point. We all know there are blood mages in the circle. Still that's not enough a reason to kill all mages in the circle because the circle were neitehr openly revolting to kill templars nor occupied by demons like in DA:O, and certainly not beyond redemption as you see it.

Your 1,2 reasons both can be applied to any of the circles in Thedas. There will be blood mages - check. Templars have no reliable methods to identify them - check. So you will invoke the right of annulment everytime some blood mages are found in the circle -due to templar oppression in many cases no less-? You will elminate all the circles on Thedas within few years with that mindset.

Why do you think there were more blood mages in the Kirkwell circle than other circles? You become a blood mage because either 1. you are desperate or 2. you crave power. Nothing can be done about 2 and so it cannot be a reason to call right of annulment as it is pretty universal. 1 was caused by Meridith and the way the templars treated mages in Kirkwell. It was Meridith who needed to be dealth with.

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 01 janvier 2013 - 12:36 .

[thats1evildude]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...

Your 1,2 reasons both can be applied to any of the circles in Thedas. There will be blood mages - check. Templars have no reliable methods to identify them - check. So you will envoke the right of annulment everytime some blood mages are found in the circle -due to templar oppression in many cases no less-? You will elminate all the circles on Thedas within a few years with that mindset.

You say that like it's a bad thing. 

But no, you don't invoke the Right of Annulment every time a few mages decide slitting their wrists and cuddling up to demons. You invoke it when there is evidence that the majority or at least a large portion of the Circle has turned to blood magic. There was ample evidence that most of Kirkwall's Circle were maleficars. Hence, the Right was necessary.

Also, you're ignoring my other point: that aiding the templars ultimately minimizes the damage inflicted on the city. If Elthina had granted Meredith's request a lot sooner, she and many others would still be alive.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 01 janvier 2013 - 12:59 .

[IntoTheDarkness]

thats1evildude wrote...

You say that like it's a bad thing. 

But no, you don't invoke the Rite every time a few mages decide slitting their wrists and cuddling up to demons. You invoke it when there is evidence that the majority or at least a large portion of the Circle has turned to blood magic. There was ample evidence that most of Kirkwall's Circle were maleficars. Hence, the Rite was necessary.

On the contrary, there were such no evidiences. You fought many blood mages who turned into a blood mage because they were being oppressed or simply because of their madness through out the game. How is that an evidence to incriminate the majority of the circle mages?

Obviously the circle was not being managed well to restrain mages since it was producing blood mages on daily basis, whether it's the first enchanter's rensponsibility or the knight commander's. If so, the solution should have been found in the management instead of killing all mages.




Kirkwell circle has more blood mages than the average. Is that due to external force like the presense of demons? No.

It's due to the way circle is run in Kirkwell. Killng all mages doesn't really fix this. Depending on your view, you could agree with Ordino and grant mages more freedom, or you could agree with Meridith and shackle mages to watch them more closesly. Either way RoA is simply absurd at that point.

thats1evildude wrote...

Also, you're ignoring my other point: that aiding the templars
ultimately minimizes the damage inflicted on the city. If Elthina had
granted Meredith's request a lot sooner, she and many others would still
be alive.

That's a fair point. Only it is Meridith who started all this mess by invoking the rite. It could have ended with Ander's execution and a few more blood mages' death instead of the whole massacre if she had decided to detain mages and investigate instead of killing them all. It was a wrong call and she is the one to have caused this conflict to escalate further than needed, so siding with her doesn't really make much sense.

If a crazy dog spreads a desease, do you think slaying those infected in order to subdue further infection with help of that crazy dog takes priority over putting down that rabid dog first?

Cullen: "rite of annulment is only invoked if every mage involved is beyond salvation."

Modifié par IntoTheDarkness, 01 janvier 2013 - 01:10 .

[MisterJB]

What if Fenris is right? It is out of Hawke's control whether there will be a fight. So, what if empowered by their victory over the templars, the blood mages we know are in the Circle decide that they will now rule the city?

But I do see your point. I'm Pro-Templar through and through, I believe that equality between mundanes and mages is impossible but I also believe that the Circle was created as an alternative to the wholesome slaugther of the entire mage population due to the threat they pose. We know there are innocents in the Circle. What Meredith does...is hard to support.

[ChaplainTappman]

Argument 1: That which has already been made. That is, genuine belief that the Order is in the right, and the Kirkwall Circle is corrupted beyond redemption. It's common knowledge to those familiar with the situation that the Kirkwall Circle turns out more corruption mages than is usual. The city itself was built as a Tevinter blood magic experiment, on an immense scale. The Veil is thin at best, utterly sundered at worst. This is no place for mages to be based, and while the decision to house a Circle in the Gallows is lamentable, it led directly to the need for Annulment.

Argument 2: Self interest. Siding with the mages necessitates fleeing Kirkwall. Even if you kill or expel every templar in the city, the Chantry will send more, likely with explicit orders to burn the city down if there's any resistance. It's not hard to imagine that being unappealing to Hawke, who's been on the run his/her entire life. S/he may simply want to stay and live the life s/he's been building the past seven years. What's more, siding with the templars guarantees Hawke's ascension to the viscouncy, and protection from his/her myriad enemies.

Argument 3: Passion. Hawke's not making this decision at an emotional distance like the player is. S/he's undoubtedly shocked, possibly upset over the death of Elthina. A rash decision isn't unreasonable.

[Yalision]

The game was designed to make a "correct" choice impossible. It makes me wonder very seriously whether it will matter at all in Dragon Age III. Given both sides are completely bats*** insane in Kirkwall, elsewhere in the world they may very well be quite capable of reasoning.

[berelinde]

If you start killing everybody who has the potential to be dangerous, Thedas would become a wasteland with a handful of drooling simpletons, and even they would eventually die out because they wouldn't have the ambition to till the land or the drive to defend themselves against natural predators.

It isn't about magic. It isn't about any hypothetical "average mage" or about the presumed inevitability of demonic possession. Both are myths. There are people with extraordinary abilities on both sides, people with unquenchable thirst for power on both sides, and either is capable of doing more harm to the innocent than your average person with or without magical ability.

If you corner any creature with the will or instinct to live, it will defend itself. If that creature bites its attacker, who is to blame? The animal or the one who cornered it in the first place? People are not animals, except in the broadest biological sense. They are capable of restraint, and some are even capable of self-sacrifice, but martyrs on either side are rare. People fight back. Apart from Uldred, we do not see a single voluntary abomination. They turned to demons as one last, desperate attempt at survival. Quentin is more than balanced by the dozens of templars we see raping and murdering on a daily basis just because they can. In Act 3, we see death squads of templars roaming the streets murdering people on suspicion of harboring mages. Even Tevinter isn't as bad as that.

Tevinter. That comes up a lot. Even in Tevinter, the problem isn't really the magic, it's the cultural belief that slaves aren't people, that it's okay to deny them basic human rights... just like the Chantry has taught people regarding mages. The templars have learned that rape and torture carry no penalty when the victim is a mage or can be linked somehow to magic. This creates a culture of fear and despair, but it also moves some people to defiance. People want to live.

In Tevinter, slave rebellions are commonplace. Slaves rise up to defy their masters all the time, but these rebellions are quickly put down because the slaves lack the means survive long enough to change the system. What would happen if they did manage to win? Would they dissipate and live in peace, or would they seek to turn the tables and enslave their former oppressors? Would it be justified? In case you missed it, that was a reference to Andraste's rebellion. One might even argue that Meredith invoked the wrath of the Maker in her own personal pride-driven storming of the Golden City. The destruction sweeping Thedas is as destructive as any Blight.

In a way, you probably can blame Tevinter. Before the people of Thedas encountered it, mages and non-mages lived together peacefully. Ferelden was not a desert populated abominations who had slaughtered everyone else.

This cycle will continue unbroken as long as one group continues to believe that another group should be put down based on who they are as opposed to what they've done. In other words, it will never end. Somebody - mage, templar, it doesn't matter - will always want more than their due.

It's probably all just a metaphor for original sin.

Modifié par berelinde, 02 janvier 2013 - 07:40 .

[jmlzemaggo]

No.
None.
Templars are to be erased.
Because they believe having rights for being erasers.
Worse even: holly rights.
Inquisition, when humanity runs backwards...
Try forbiding me my most human rights to be myself, and I shall go "blood" right away as well. 
Religious are herectics. 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 04 janvier 2013 - 10:42 .

[Azmodael]

The reason why the Mage Circle in Kirkwall was so corrupt in the first place was the high pressure the Templar put on it.

There will be generally 3 type of mages:
Good guys who wont use blood magic ever
Normal guys who will not use blood magic unless some circumstance forces them or unless strongly tempted
Bad guys who will most probably use blood magic anyway/are easy to tempt

By increasing external pressure and limiting the freedom of the mages you actually risk increasing the number of Bad guys from the ranks of normal guys - simply because people who would otherwise not turn to blood magic are now resorting to it in order to seek freedom. Anders is actually the perfect example of this - an otherwise nice and compassionate guy who resorts to terrorism to win freedom for what he considers his people. Should a holy war against mages be declared this will force more and more of them to turn to Blood Magic and become Abiminations simply in order to survive.

The whole institution of Templars is corrupted in the first place. Templars cannot use magic and cannot enter the Fade. They have only secondary knowledge of demons and the fade. They also rely on mundane investigations to determine who is a blood mage.

In my opinion the best solution will be for mages to police themselves, but with keeping the templar institution, but without such a tight control over mage circles. Also mages should automatically lose any birthrights for positions of power and should never be able to assume such a position outside of the circle. Also mages should take active role in social life but only as advisors and only for a limited amount of time. Say 6 months/term to minimize the risk of blood magic influence on the minds of people.

Modifié par Azmodael, 04 janvier 2013 - 08:00 .

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
Don't under-estimate what human beings can do without magic.

And you shouldn't understimate what human beings will do if they have acess to magic.
It's true that mundanes count criminals and psychopaths amongst their number as well but this is not a matter of what bad people will do if given magic. This is a matter of what normal people like you and me will do if given acess to magic.

If a child sees his father growing sicker and sicker, what does the child? He will cry and pray to the Maker his father gets better and that's about it.
What did Connor, a mage child, do? He summoned a demon, made a deal with it to keep his father alive and released an army of undead that killed dozens in Redcliff.
Likewise,  it is quite probrable Quentin was not a mad man who slaugthered puppies when he was younger. He was a normal man who lost his wife and would do anything to get her back regardless of who got hurt. Magic gave him the means to accomplish this.

The sad truth is that there are an innumerable number of stressfull situations in life that can make a person lose his mind. If this happens to a mage, consequences are catastrophic.
And this is not even taking into account the number of temptations in day to day life that can make a mage abuse his powers. It is, afterall, human nature to look out for number 1.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2013 - 08:31 .

[Karnor00]

I don't like the idea of killing all innocent mages just because some turn to blood magic.

However in DA2 every mage except your sister (or player if you play a mage) is in fact a crazy power hungry mage who happily kills any innocents who get in their way. I can't think of a single one who isn't.

So I have to admit that the Kirkwall templars at least have a point.

[MisterJB]

All templars everywhere have a point. Altough, admitadely, having a point is not the same as being absolutely right about everything. I can point flaws to some templar actions despite supporting them through and through.

Still, what exactly is so wrong about the Circle system?
Mages live amongst a community of their kind in a luxurious tower where they are fed, clothed, educated, protected of those who; understandably; fear them and are also kept from harming anyone. It's true that every now and again templars like Alrik come along but corruption exists everywhere, not just in the Order.

It's true that they have less freedoms than mundanes but any society must restrict the freedoms of their members in order to remain civil. It's why there are rules that we all must obey or be punished. Because we all have the potential to be dangerous.

Would you argue that the safety measures taken when handling water should be the same as when handling radioactive waste?
I assume not, then why would you argue that the safety measures taken when handling mundanes should be the same as when handling mages?

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2013 - 09:00 .

[berelinde]

Were there no historical precedent for mages and non-mages peacefully coexisting without a Circle system, you might have a point. But there is. Prior to the Tevinter invasion, the tribes who inhabited Ferelden had no Circles. Mages lived among their kin, mage and non-mage alike. They were invested in the community and focused their talents toward its survival. They did not turn into abominations because there was no need. They were not threatened with death or emotional decapitation simply because they exist, so there was no need to resort to extreme measures. Plus, the fact that they were not treated as objects, specifically weapons, ensured that they retained their humanity and their sense of responsibility toward their tribes. The Dalish are still using this system, and there are surprisingly few Dalish abominations.

The problem is that shifting the focus of the community from joint responsibility toward individual achievement and individual culpability. That isn't the right word, but I can't think of a better one. Isolating the mages and stripping away their humanity almost guarantees future problems. Peace was maintained because they felt responsibility toward the community they were a part of. Take away that raison d'etre and they become walking detonators. That, my friends, is dangerous. It isn't ability. Everyone has ability of one type or another. It's the lack of restraint. The only thing they have to lose is themselves, and when death is imminent, that becomes irrelevant. There's no point in telling a Death Row inmate that smoking kills. The worst part is that the mages are on death row not because they have committed a crime, but because they might.

And we're back to the argument of potential versus actuality. Non-mages have the potential to kill as well. Most deaths in Thedas are the result of people with no magical ability whatsoever. You're locking up the grenades while passing out the M16s. You're far better off not turning people into weapons in the first place.

No one is saying that training is unnecessary. Olivia, Connor, and even Feynriel are proof of that. Thrask can be forgiven for not wishing to send his daughter to the Circle. As a templar, he knew better than anyone what abuse she would suffer there. Isolde and Ariani did not have Thrask's insight, but they did not want their children to be taken away, never to be heard from again. As a result, the children did not receive the training they needed, and as a result, they became vulnerable to both human and demonic predators. It doesn't have to be that way. The Hawke family is living proof that with training, mages can be a valuable part of society.

So, what alternative is there to the Circle system? There was actually a discussion about this a while ago, on the Cullen thread, of all places, and I proposed a system not unlike Hogwarts. I hate to use a Harry Potter example, but it isn't a bad system. Newly-discovered mages attend a school where they are taught about the responsible use of their abilities within a community framework. When their training is complete, they graduate, return to their communities and pursue the career of their choice. Keep the Chantry out of it. They already had their turn teaching fear and hate. It's time to give trust a try.

[MisterJB]

Berelinde: It's obvious that you mean well but; and I hope this won't offend you but I wish to be blunt; what you just said is nothing but idealistic nonsense. Trust? Really?

It feels good to dream of a community were everyone helps each other and no one is in conflict but that is all it is. A dream. It is in the nature of sentient beings to be self serving, to be greedy, to compete, to look out for number one.
That is who we are, it's who will always be. The very idea that mages will not use their powers to elevate themselves above mundanes is laughable. And I don't blame them, we would do the very same thing.
The dalish are close because they are threatened by the humans which forms a sense of community, nothing else. And even dalish "society" is mage supremacist considering only mages can be Keepers.

Do you know what is dangerous? People. People are dangerous. People who can make you helpless in a myriad of different ways with their minds are even more dangerous. And your advice is to "give trust a try"?
Right, ask the city elves how well that worked out for them. Because that is likely what is to become of mundanes if mages are freed.

BTW, in the Harry Potter universe, muggles have nuclear bombs they could use against the wizards if they ever discovered they exist. Thus why Hogwarts works.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2013 - 03:23 .

[berelinde]

Again, were there no history of an integrated society where mages and non-mages lived in peace, I might believe there was some possibility that templar oppression was something more than hate-fueled jealousy. But there is a precedent. That's what life was like before the Tevinter invasion. That's how life still is among the Chasind and among the Dalish. That's how it could be elsewhere, but it would take true compromise. Not the kind where mages are locked in towers, raped daily, killed on a whim, and the Chantry blesses it as the will of the Maker. The kind where mages are held responsible for their actual conduct, not for the fears of those who have made no attempt at looking beyond the fear cultivated in them by the chantry.

Magic is in Thedas to stay. Mages are continuously born into families that have no prior incidence of it. In an integrated society, mages become commonplace, not a commodity to be hoarded and exploited for fun and profit.

That's the crux of it. Individuals on both sides seek to use magic for personal gain. The benefit the mages hope to acquire is their freedom. The benefit the non-mages guard is their own power and greed. Idealism tinged with a healthy dose of cynicism: the Chantry became more powerful than the magistrates ever were. They owe a significant portion of their wealth and influence to the mages they imprisoned. By declaring mages their property by divine right, they gained a tool to use against any secular power that threatened their absolute authority.

There will never be peace, of course. As I said earlier, human nature inclines people to want more than they are entitled to. In present day Thedas, that means that the templars want to wipe out any threat to their supremacy. If they win against the mages, some new group will fall victim to their need to dominate. Once greed takes hold, it can never be eradicated.

[MisterJB]

What are you talking about? Templars have no supremacy over anyone. Even in the Circle, the power is shared with the mages who, despite what you claim, are not raped daily much less killed on a whim. They can't even be made Tranquil without the approval of the First Enchanter and a Circle mage who has passed his Harrowing can't be Tranquilized or killed under any circunstance unless he choose to become an apostate. Otherwhise he is just sent to Aeonar. The templars have a vetted interested in keeping mages alive because they are a valuable resource, if nothing else.
Sure, sometimes these laws aren't respected but any system can be affected by corruption. That doesn't make the system itself flawed.

As for the Chantry, we have yet to see it use the mages under its care for its own advantage. I don't see the Divine keeping secret blood mage squads serving her nor have I seen the Cirle being used in any of orlais expansionist wars.
The only times the Circle was actually used was when humanity itself was under threat such against the Dales, Qunari and Bligths.
Honestly, I expected the Chantry to be far worse than it actually is. They are actually quine genuine in their fear of mages. A fear that is quite healthy.

What you seem to fail to realize is that just as mundanes fall prey to greed, so would mages. Tell me how you plan to prevent mages from abusing their powers or from taking the reins of society. And don't use "trust they won't." That's nonsense.
The Dalish are a mage supremacist society; altough not as depraved as Tevinter; and we know virtually nothing about the Chasind let alone their views on magic.

Modifié par MisterJB, 05 janvier 2013 - 04:45 .

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB arguments are as usuall: complete ****, and thats coming from a police officer. Trust is the very foundation of how we police govern the general populace. We really have to deal with our own world abominations: namely idiots with semi-automatic rifles. But that doesnt mean you should create a police state. I wonder JB if you ever been subjected to a regime similar to a police state? Like so many others he would also rebel against it as his mind will rebel against the indoctrination and thought control.

Which is similar to what happend in DA. The templars can never win . even if they destroy this rebellion their will be another and another and another till the templars are no more. And each war will cause an enormous amount of casualties. And if they are stupid enough to kill all mages the chantry will fall to those who will wield magic in a more sensible way. But its the general populace that will suffer of course because of the actions of the templars and thats why JB is so shortsighted. Another system needs to be put into place and i dont care for the moment what it is but supporting the current system will lead to the destruction of thedas.