587 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Once again you present your opinion as fact. the biggest problem with your argument is that we have no clue how prone mages to possesion in general. And yet for some reason you shoot down any argument that says that the need some much needed reform for the safety of the common people.

You mean the thing you constantly do?

We've seen how prone mages are to possesion.
Yet it's you who continualy diminished their threat and demonizes the Chantry/Templars.

The mages don't have it as rough as so many of you claim - and even many mages confirm as much.
But that hardly matters..because everyone is wrong except you.

Have we seen how prone mages are to possesion? give me the numbers then. If you dont have them then STFU idiot. Once again you present opinion as fact and im growing tired of it. What is fact however is that their are other civilizations where mages roamed free and the whole abomination danger was not so big a deal.

And as said before its not the mages that need more rights its the templars who are the problem. A bunch of corrupt , undisciplined bunch of armed thugs is supposed to guard humanity from magic . Dont make me laugh. The fereldan tower already showed they cannot handle a serious problem ( and before you talk out of your ass again i will remind you thats its wynne who contained the problem) . Not to mention they have a tendency to take bribes ,abuse their charges  and are hooked up to drugs that addle their brains.

Not to mention locking the mages up at one spot is dangerous as hell. Uldred nearly created an army of abominations because more recruits where so conveniently nearby. Epic fail! The only reason why templars can control the mages is because the Aequitarians and Loyalists allowed them to. Once the Aequitarians said : enough of this **** the templars once again failed to contain the situation. In short morons support the templars only intelligent people look for an alternative.  You can take a guess how i look to your worthless arguments.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Have we seen how prone mages are to possesion? give me the numbers then. If you dont have them then STFU idiot. Once again you present opinion as fact and im growing tired of it. What is fact however is that their are other civilizations where mages roamed free and the whole abomination danger was not so big a deal.

Since when is that a fact?

You know, if you plan to call me out on not presenting fact, then at least you should make sure you do post some in the same post. Otherwise you jsut end up looking redicolous-

And as said before its not the mages that need more rights its the templars who are the problem. A bunch of corrupt , undisciplined bunch of armed thugs is supposed to guard humanity from magic . Dont make me laugh.

Mages are the problem. Always were, always will be.
Using Kirkwall as the posterchild for templars is redicolous.

The fereldan tower already showed they cannot handle a serious problem ( and before you talk out of your ass again i will remind you thats its wynne who contained the problem) . Not to mention they have a tendency to take bribes ,abuse their charges  and are hooked up to drugs that addle their brains.

No, it showed nothing of the sort.
The Ferelden incident was a big one, and it was still contained.

Tendancy to take bribes? Based on what? That one templar in Redcliffe?
Tendancy to abuse charges? Based on what? Fenryel?

Not to mention locking the mages up at one spot is dangerous as hell. Uldred nearly created an army of abominations because more recruits where so conveniently nearby. Epic fail!

Still a million times safer than letting them roam free

In short morons support the templars only intelligent people look for an alternative.  You can take a guess how i look to your worthless arguments.

I have no idea.
I do know how I look at your tough.
By laughing my ass off at how stupid and wrong they are.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:21 .

[Festilence]

I sided with the Mages and this came naturally. I think the main reason I came to feel this way is that reasonable Mages were placing emphasise on simply wanting freedom and that the majority would not abuse this right.

The fact that Meredith was the Knight-Commander didn't help either. I can't remember the last time I got more satisfaction from defeating a character in a Video Game than I did when I defeated her. Largely thanks to her and the messages she sent out, the Templars always emphasised control at any cost, resulting in countless unethical treatment and murders of innocent Mages.

But there are clearly arguments for siding with the Templars too, all of which are made clear throughout the game. One that is perhaps not made clear as such is that you can side with the Templars even if you don't agree with what they and Meredith are doing. You can side with them with a view to influencing them to be not so ruthless and remembering what their true responsibilities are supposed to be.

Modifié par Festilence, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:06 .

[dragonflight288]

But there are clearly arguments for siding with the Templars too, all of which are made clear throughout the game. One that is perhaps not made clear as such is that you can side with the Templars even if you don't agree with what they and Meredith are doing. You can side with them with a view to influencing them to be not so ruthless and remembering what their true responsibilities are supposed to be.

That's an interesting stance. I personally think it's useless at this point in Thedas history, but strictly my opinion. There are plenty of good, decent templars that I like and respect, but they are overshadowed by high ranking radicals. Lambert was the Lord-High Seeker and his job was investigating templars, but he was a lot closer to Meredith in temperament than Gregoire. And he was too busy being paranoid of mages to do his actual job.

Meredith promoted templars who shared her ideas (which is how Cullen became Knight-Captain) and why Thrask had to work in secret. Meredith was without doubt, overreaching and extending her grasp so she had ALL the power, not only over the templars but also over the city. Lambert completely disregards direct orders from the Divine and tries to slaughter mages unprovoked because he's so terrified of what they might do if given freedom. Heck, he even tries cold-blooded murder to hide evidence that tranquility can be cured....even if the tranquil made whole now has trouble controlling his emotions.

I just don't see people like Meredith or Lambert allowing moderate and reasonable voices to rise up and influence them. Meredith, when told she's wrong about Orsino being behind the rebellion, dismisses it as Orsino using blood magic to influence Hawke. She wasn't listening to anyone but herself.

[LobselVith8]

Festilence wrote...

But there are clearly arguments for siding with the Templars too, all of which are made clear throughout the game. One that is perhaps not made clear as such is that you can side with the Templars even if you don't agree with what they and Meredith are doing. You can side with them with a view to influencing them to be not so ruthless and remembering what their true responsibilities are supposed to be.

Except you're siding with Meredith when she makes one single argument for the Right of Annulment: to execute hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob, because of the actions of a single rogue Grey Warden mage. That's why the mages across Thedas see pro-templar Hawke as a symbol of oppression. The Knight-Captain who stands by Hawke is a man who thinks that mages can't be treated as people, views them as weapons, and implies he supports the Tranquil Solution. I honestly don't see this course of action helping the mages or changing the Order of Templars. If you're participating in the mass execution of hundreds of mages for an act they had no part in, how are you helping the templars change?

Had the option been available to side with Thrask and his rebellion of mages and templars working side by side, that would have been another matter, entirely.

[Festilence]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Festilence wrote...

But there are clearly arguments for siding with the Templars too, all of which are made clear throughout the game. One that is perhaps not made clear as such is that you can side with the Templars even if you don't agree with what they and Meredith are doing. You can side with them with a view to influencing them to be not so ruthless and remembering what their true responsibilities are supposed to be.

Except you're siding with Meredith when she makes one single argument for the Right of Annulment: to execute hundreds of men, women, and children to appease a hypothetical mob, because of the actions of a single rogue Grey Warden mage. That's why the mages across Thedas see pro-templar Hawke as a symbol of oppression. The Knight-Captain who stands by Hawke is a man who thinks that mages can't be treated as people, views them as weapons, and implies he supports the Tranquil Solution. I honestly don't see this course of action helping the mages or changing the Order of Templars. If you're participating in the mass execution of hundreds of mages for an act they had no part in, how are you helping the templars change?

Had the option been available to side with Thrask and his rebellion of mages and templars working side by side, that would have been another matter, entirely.

I agree, I'm just merely saying that others playing as Hawke may see it differently.  Let's face it, nearly every Mage you try and help in Dragon Age II turns into an abomination and tries to kill you, plus Anders, even if you romanced him as someone who sides with Mages for the majority of the game and is supporting of everything he does and says, goes behind your back to destroy the Chantry and murder the Grand Cleric.

Those will be convincing enough arguments for some.

[LobselVith8]

Festilence wrote...

I agree, I'm just merely saying that others playing as Hawke may see it differently.  Let's face it, nearly every Mage you try and help in Dragon Age II turns into an abomination and tries to kill you, plus Anders, even if you romanced him as someone who sides with Mages for the majority of the game and is supporting of everything he does and says, goes behind your back to destroy the Chantry and murder the Grand Cleric.

Those will be convincing enough arguments for some. 

I've read some say that they sided with Meredith because Quentin murdered Leandra, or because Orsino helped Quentin, and I see it on par with the examples of mages who were stupid and insane - they are condemning an entire population of men, women, and children for the actions of a few criminal mages. It's like purging the entire Kirkwall Alienage because a few elves converted to the Qun and helped the Qunari take over Kirkwall.

Then there's the problem that many of the insane mages don't make any sense - Decimus thinking that Hawke and his companions are templars. This is insane on it's own - a pantless pirate, a dwarf with a hairy chest, and a man in a feather robe don't seem like templars to me; then there's the problem of Merrill, a Dalish elf, who are hunted down by templars. It simply doesn't make sense.

We have the example of Tahrone, who looks like a crack addict and sounds like a lunatic. Why would anyone side with her? I don't see any rational person siding with a raving, purple lipped lunatic who seems like they're high on something. I could see people siding with a charmatic, charming, persuasive person, but not a raving lunatic who can barely utter a coherent sentence.

Quentin is right out of a bad soap opera plot, with his kidnap of Leandra because she's identical to his dead wife. The comically bad scenes where Hawke discovers that Leandra is a walking corpse were simply awful, right out of an Uwe Boll film. Not to mention how Hawke doesn't bother to warn his own mother that there's a serial killer who is killing women in Kirkwall.

Then there's Grace, who will seek revenge on Hawke, even if he helps her escape. The Railroading here makes it absurd; it doesn't make any sense that Grace would try to harm Hawke if he helped her escape. With a pro-mage apostate Hawke, this becomes even more absurd, with Thrask and the members of his insurrection group trying to murder Hawke because they think he's working for Meredith, even if he publicly opposed Meredith's dictatorship before the people of Kirkwall. W T F ?

Finally, Orsino helps Quentin, but how does the First Enchanter even know Quentin? It's never explained. It's implied from Gascard's note that Quentin was from the Circle of Starkhaven, but even if he was an apostate who grew up outside the Circle, how would Orsino even know him? And why would Orsino aid in research that was practically useless? The Harvester Ritual is perhaps one of the most useless and pointless rituals that I've seen, and I find it ridiculous that anyone would think that a mindless brute would be of any benefit. Basically, we have Orsino aiding Quentin's ridiculously stupid research because we needed to have another boss battle, which the developers admitted to.

[B3NGU1N]

Personally, I sided with the Templars for survival. The Templars would beat the mages anyway, they are trained to do so, and I have 2 or 3 mage companions with me. The right is going to happen, my Hawke just tried to protect his friends.

[Festilence]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But there are clearly arguments for siding with the Templars too, all of which are made clear throughout the game. One that is perhaps not made clear as such is that you can side with the Templars even if you don't agree with what they and Meredith are doing. You can side with them with a view to influencing them to be not so ruthless and remembering what their true responsibilities are supposed to be.

That's an interesting stance. I personally think it's useless at this point in Thedas history, but strictly my opinion. There are plenty of good, decent templars that I like and respect, but they are overshadowed by high ranking radicals. Lambert was the Lord-High Seeker and his job was investigating templars, but he was a lot closer to Meredith in temperament than Gregoire. And he was too busy being paranoid of mages to do his actual job.

Meredith promoted templars who shared her ideas (which is how Cullen became Knight-Captain) and why Thrask had to work in secret. Meredith was without doubt, overreaching and extending her grasp so she had ALL the power, not only over the templars but also over the city. Lambert completely disregards direct orders from the Divine and tries to slaughter mages unprovoked because he's so terrified of what they might do if given freedom. Heck, he even tries cold-blooded murder to hide evidence that tranquility can be cured....even if the tranquil made whole now has trouble controlling his emotions.

I just don't see people like Meredith or Lambert allowing moderate and reasonable voices to rise up and influence them. Meredith, when told she's wrong about Orsino being behind the rebellion, dismisses it as Orsino using blood magic to influence Hawke. She wasn't listening to anyone but herself.

Good points about Meredith and Lambert.  I've just re-played the end bit of the game again but sided with the Templars this time.  It felt "wrong" the whole time and Meredith was acting like just as much of a b*tch as she was when you openly opposed her, with Cullen having to remind her what Templars are supposed to be about.

[dragonflight288]

Festilence wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But there are clearly arguments for siding with the Templars too, all of which are made clear throughout the game. One that is perhaps not made clear as such is that you can side with the Templars even if you don't agree with what they and Meredith are doing. You can side with them with a view to influencing them to be not so ruthless and remembering what their true responsibilities are supposed to be.

That's an interesting stance. I personally think it's useless at this point in Thedas history, but strictly my opinion. There are plenty of good, decent templars that I like and respect, but they are overshadowed by high ranking radicals. Lambert was the Lord-High Seeker and his job was investigating templars, but he was a lot closer to Meredith in temperament than Gregoire. And he was too busy being paranoid of mages to do his actual job.

Meredith promoted templars who shared her ideas (which is how Cullen became Knight-Captain) and why Thrask had to work in secret. Meredith was without doubt, overreaching and extending her grasp so she had ALL the power, not only over the templars but also over the city. Lambert completely disregards direct orders from the Divine and tries to slaughter mages unprovoked because he's so terrified of what they might do if given freedom. Heck, he even tries cold-blooded murder to hide evidence that tranquility can be cured....even if the tranquil made whole now has trouble controlling his emotions.

I just don't see people like Meredith or Lambert allowing moderate and reasonable voices to rise up and influence them. Meredith, when told she's wrong about Orsino being behind the rebellion, dismisses it as Orsino using blood magic to influence Hawke. She wasn't listening to anyone but herself.

Good points about Meredith and Lambert.  I've just re-played the end bit of the game again but sided with the Templars this time.  It felt "wrong" the whole time and Meredith was acting like just as much of a b*tch as she was when you openly opposed her, with Cullen having to remind her what Templars are supposed to be about.

And even when she wants to put the Champion to death, because of the possibility of Hawke being controlled by a blood mage or being a blood mage, depending on whether Hawe's a mage or not, Cullen intervenes yet again and Meredith says he's being controlled by blood mages and turns on Cullen as well....even after they slaughtered all the mages so there wouldn't be blood mages to control anyone.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But there are clearly arguments for siding with the Templars too, all of which are made clear throughout the game. One that is perhaps not made clear as such is that you can side with the Templars even if you don't agree with what they and Meredith are doing. You can side with them with a view to influencing them to be not so ruthless and remembering what their true responsibilities are supposed to be.

That's an interesting stance. I personally think it's useless at this point in Thedas history, but strictly my opinion. There are plenty of good, decent templars that I like and respect, but they are overshadowed by high ranking radicals. Lambert was the Lord-High Seeker and his job was investigating templars, but he was a lot closer to Meredith in temperament than Gregoire. And he was too busy being paranoid of mages to do his actual job.

Meredith promoted templars who shared her ideas (which is how Cullen became Knight-Captain) and why Thrask had to work in secret. Meredith was without doubt, overreaching and extending her grasp so she had ALL the power, not only over the templars but also over the city. Lambert completely disregards direct orders from the Divine and tries to slaughter mages unprovoked because he's so terrified of what they might do if given freedom. Heck, he even tries cold-blooded murder to hide evidence that tranquility can be cured....even if the tranquil made whole now has trouble controlling his emotions.

I just don't see people like Meredith or Lambert allowing moderate and reasonable voices to rise up and influence them. Meredith, when told she's wrong about Orsino being behind the rebellion, dismisses it as Orsino using blood magic to influence Hawke. She wasn't listening to anyone but herself.

All of this. Not to mention how when Orsino reminds Meredith of the true purpose of the Order in Act 3's beginning, she dismisses it and goes "I don't need anyone, least of all you, to tell me what my duties are Mage!".

As more evidence, Thrask says that Karras, who is also an extremist, is a Knight-Lieutenant in the Templars and is a great crony of Meredith's. That's a pretty high position to hold.

[MisterJB]

Not exactly the most intellectual of my posts but here is a good reason to side with the Templars. Mages are vandals.


"FREE THE MAGES! FREE THE MAGES!"

[IanPolaris]

I could just as easily (and frankly with more justification) photoshop Meredith and other Templar heads onto NSDAP party uniforms.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

In DA 2 it is quite difficult, I fear, to side with Meredith. The Templar cause is not so difficult to support. Protect Mages and Mundane from each other, let the Mages study their magic away from the populace, hunt abominations and maleficar, help civilians when possible.

Not every Templar is a power abusing monster. Not every Mage is going to slice up their wrists at the first sign of trouble. I really don't see what non-Kirkwall mages have to complain about that doesn't apply in some fashion to other groups.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Not exactly the most intellectual of my posts but here is a good reason to side with the Templars. Mages are vandals.


"FREE THE MAGES! FREE THE MAGES!"

*converts from pro-Mage to pro-Templar*

[Festilence]

Good stuff MisterJB!

[MisterJB]

Ah, if only Anders had restricted himself to hitting on the side of the wall of the Chantry with his staff. Alas.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

In DA 2 it is quite difficult, I fear, to side with Meredith. The Templar cause is not so difficult to support. Protect Mages and Mundane from each other, let the Mages study their magic away from the populace, hunt abominations and maleficar, help civilians when possible.

Not every Templar is a power abusing monster. Not every Mage is going to slice up their wrists at the first sign of trouble. I really don't see what non-Kirkwall mages have to complain about that doesn't apply in some fashion to other groups.

To be fair, Meredith's ultimatium to Hawke towards the end of Dragon Age II has absolutely nothing to do with the dichotomy between mages and templars, which was pretty much the problem throughout the entire narrative when mage antagonists are insane and stupid, and templar antagonists are one-dimensional sadists. I think we can all agree that three-dimensional characters would be preferred over asinine caricatures.

[MisterJB]

A question to the Pro-Mages.
I've seen some of you congratulate Anders for what he did because "Vive La Revolution" and whatnot.
But, what if Meredith hadn't declared the Right? What if all she demanded was the public execution of Anders and to lock down the Gallows, both to investigate any possible Circle involvment in the terrorist attack but also to ensure no heartbroken Kirkwaller decide to demand some as explanation as to what happened from the mages?
What would you have done? Killed her to force the conflict?

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

A question to the Pro-Mages.
I've seen some of you congratulate Anders for what he did because "Vive La Revolution" and whatnot.
But, what if Meredith hadn't declared the Right? What if all she demanded was the public execution of Anders and to lock down the Gallows, both to investigate any possible Circle involvment in the terrorist attack but also to ensure no heartbroken Kirkwaller decide to demand some as explanation as to what happened from the mages?
What would you have done? Killed her to force the conflict?

I have never congratulated Anders.  I execute Anders every time for his act of terrorism, justified or not.  Had Meredith done the right thing, I would have found it very difficult to oppose her whatever I thought of her personally.

-Polaris

[74 Wrex]

Meredith is a Crazy as Hell and Orsino is F*cked and Anders is Crazy like them both so they all were to blame
Reasons Why Meredith is Crazy: Paranoid as Hell about Blood Magic and Mages
Reasons Why Orsino is F*cked: He was working with a crazy blood mage and became a monster
Reasons Why Anders is Crazy: Blew Up the Chantry and hates Templars for doing their jobs

Modifié par 74 Wrex, 01 février 2013 - 11:02 .

[dragonflight288]

74 Wrex wrote...

Meredith is a Crazy as Hell and Orsino is F*cked and Anders is Crazy like them both so they all were to blame
Reasons Why Meredith is Crazy: Paranoid as Hell about Blood Magic and Mages
Reasons Why Orsino is F*cked: He was working with a crazy blood mage and became a monster
Reasons Why Anders is Crazy: Blew Up the Chantry and hates Templars for doing their jobs

Reasons why Templars are crazy: They're hypocrites who refuse to acknowledge that they themselves technically practice magic and are frequent users of blood magic through the phylacteries. And they have no oversight that works.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

A question to the Pro-Mages.
I've seen some of you congratulate Anders for what he did because "Vive La Revolution" and whatnot.
But, what if Meredith hadn't declared the Right? What if all she demanded was the public execution of Anders and to lock down the Gallows, both to investigate any possible Circle involvment in the terrorist attack but also to ensure no heartbroken Kirkwaller decide to demand some as explanation as to what happened from the mages?
What would you have done? Killed her to force the conflict?

Though I find Anders to be justified in his act -- not that I necessarily agree with it. I've never been certain whether I agree with it or not, but I do find it justified -- I tend to fluctuate between sparing Anders or not when I deign to play DAII.

Which is rare given my hatred of the game compounded by the save corruption issue that still exists and Bioware has seen fit to ignore now. But yes, I would've sided with her. Usually, I just kill him.

Orsino would've probably sided with her after that, because then she'd have a valid reason for wanting to search the Circle. Orsino might ask for assurances that only the culpable Mages, if any exist, would be punished and that he'd do everything in his power to ensure the investigation has no problems. He's not against working with the Templars and does want the Circle and Chantry to work together. 

Anders needs a public execution. Killing him on the spot accomplishes nothing, save for Sebastian's support. The people of Kirkwall need to know who is responsible. Trouble being, Justice/Vengeance might take over and try to run away to bring the Mage cause to fruition. So you'd need Templars around to ensure that any damage he would cause, if any, is kept to a minimum. 

That said, I'm sure that if the Champion, First Enchanter, and Knight-Commander were to go to the populus and say they have the responsible person in custody and will execute him, that might suffice. If they knew he was an Abomination, that might make them see that a public execution -- while a means to see justice done -- would be too risky to their lives.

So maybe a public execution isn't needed, but certainly the people of Kirkwall need to know who's responsible by leading authority figures after Elthina's death. And the Gallows should be locked down if this hypothetical mob does form, which I find unlikely but meh.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2013 - 08:39 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

A question to the Pro-Mages.
I've seen some of you congratulate Anders for what he did because "Vive La Revolution" and whatnot.
But, what if Meredith hadn't declared the Right? What if all she demanded was the public execution of Anders and to lock down the Gallows, both to investigate any possible Circle involvment in the terrorist attack but also to ensure no heartbroken Kirkwaller decide to demand some as explanation as to what happened from the mages?
What would you have done? Killed her to force the conflict?

I would support the trial and execution of Anders. I have not once, ever, congratulated Anders. Supporting the mages and opposing the power the templars currently possess is not the same as disregarding the whole system. It's a support for a reformation of the system, to make it better.

Had Meredith decided to lock down the Gallows to prevent a potential mob from storming the Gallows in a anti-mage rage, and told Orsino point-blank that she wanted to search the entire tower to see if Anders had any co-conspirators, or if there were any blood mages left after Thrask's rebellion, I would've supported her in a heartbeat. That would be Meredith doing her duty.

I have no desire for a conflict, but I also don't see it as avoidable at this point. There's an ethical way to handle any situation.

But it remains. Meredith did not do he duty. She ordered a Right of Annulment the moment she had the authority, and her justification for it is flimsy at best, radical, bloodthirsty and paranoid racism(mage-ism?) at worst. Her duty is to protect mages from those who would do them harm, and to punish mages who are guilty of being maleficar and criminals. No more, no less.

[74 Wrex]

It is pretty obvious that Orsino, Meredith and Anders were all the blame