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[IanPolaris]

74 Wrex wrote...

It is pretty obvious that Orsino, Meredith and Anders were all the blame

Yes and no.  Frankly other than being too willing to look the other way, Orsino deserves far and away the least of the blame.  It's hard to imagine that any first enchanter could have stopped it (esp given Meredith's Lyrium addled state at the end).

Anders is to blame for blowing up the Cathedral, but honestly if Anders hadn't have done it, Meredith would have (very soon) found a way to justify killing Elthina herself since the Grand Cleric was "obviously" under the influence of Bloodmagic (as was anyone that disagreed with Meredith in the end).  In fact I wouldn't have put it past Meredith to encourage some rogue mage group to do it and then have her blame it on magic.

I also think Elthina deserves a huge part of the blame since she was Meredith's direct superior and the Templars answered to her (and only the Divine had more rank in the Chantry).  She could have taken a stand and didn't.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Frankly other than being too willing to look the other way, Orsino deserves far and away the least of the blame.

He makes it quite clear, actually, that he will go to the Templars on who's responsible for the secret meetings -- provided they're malevolent in nature -- once he knows who it is, so that only the guilty are punished. He also tells Hawke to exercise judgment only if they're practicing sinister acts -- A.K.A blood magic.

He would've gone to Meredith and the Templars about Quentin if he could've trusted them and that they wouldn't have used his connection to Quentin as ammunition against all of the Mages, who no doubt would've cited the First Enchanter being an accomplice to Quentin as full-scale corruption, despite him being an unwitting one to what Quentin was actually doing.

He's willing to work with the Chantry and Templars -- evidenced by his listening to Elthina and being deemed a reasonable man by her -- but he has to be able to trust them to do the same with him. Had Elthina done more to stop Meredith, Orsino would've gladly worked with the Chantry and Templars because she would've been out of the picture.

Then he's willing to work with Meredith when she shows how off the charts insane she is, provided she revokes the Right of Annulment. And he admires the lesson the Staff of Violation signifies rather then what people choose to believe about it.

I can't say he's really willing to look the other way. He's hardly the type of person that preserves mages simply because, as many pro-Templar posters say satirically, "they're oh so oppressed!". 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2013 - 11:48 .

[BlueMagitek]

And that's why he honored their corpses by using them as a giant flesh golem that could have multiplied and overran Kirkwall like it did the Deep Roads.

Edit:  That's with a bit of sarcasm, but still.

As I said, its hard to side with Meredith under the circumstances.  If Anders had serious help from the Circle Mages, maybe.  But yes, Orsino isn't fully to blame.  Though he does bear the responsibility of hiding blood mage connections and being one himself.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 03 février 2013 - 03:24 .

[TEWR]

And that's why he honored their corpses by using them as a giant flesh golem that could have multiplied and overran Kirkwall like it did the Deep Roads.

Well, the multiplication part of it isn't common knowledge. If it was, the Warden and the Dace family wouldn't have been all "Thank the Paragons that's over with".

I still don't know how in the hell Quentin is supposed to have figured out how to make a Harvester, when its an irreversible ritual. So he couldn't have done it on himself.

And how would he be able to contain and deal with something that a Tevinter Magister and several dozen Dwarves failed at? Much less how would he be able to smuggle enough dead corpses to use as test subjects for this experiment into his little alcove when he's been after parts of a person and not the whole person?

Honestly, the people at Bioware didn't really think this through, evidenced by how they've admitted Harvestino was really just added because they wanted another boss.

Though he does bear the responsibility of hiding blood mage connections and being one himself.

I can't really take issue with his hiding Quentin's whereabouts, given the circumstances he was placed in. If Meredith had been more like Gregoir, or had Cullen been in charge, and he had still hidden it then I'd blame him.

But with Meredith being all Meredith, it's not something to condemn him for.

And he's an academic blood mage before Meredith's unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA forced him into desperation/insanity. Adralla was no different. She was simply an academic blood mage.

I find it a bit mind-boggling how people will blame Mages for resorting to desperate measures when they're actually forced into those desperate measures by the Templars, as Orsino was.

That's like blaming a person for picking up a shotgun and shooting a burglar repeatedly with it after the burglar brandished a knife and other weapons, cut you with it, and threatened your children.

[BlueMagitek]

Varric embellishment? Still, kind of a giant "screw you" to Mage supporter Hawke. That is exactly what they need.

Because the Mages tend to get a ton of innocent people harmed in their antics. More blood? No problem. Nobody likes the situation, but they're striking out at people who aren't really involved.

Edit:

"That is exactly what they need" is sarcasm.  Side with supposedly reasonable First Enchanter, turns out he's a blood mage that not only let a serial killer go on with his work but creates a Harvester.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 03 février 2013 - 05:18 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I can't really take issue with his hiding Quentin's whereabouts, given the circumstances he was placed in. If Meredith had been more like Gregoir, or had Cullen been in charge, and he had still hidden it then I'd blame him.

But with Meredith being all Meredith, it's not something to condemn him for.

There is no justification, at all, for concealing the existence of a dangerous blood mage for three years when Meredith didn't even have the Idol. In fact, revealing Quentin could have easily won hearts and minds.
Personally, I think Orsino just didn't care about the lives of mundanes.

And he's an academic blood mage before Meredith's unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA forced him into desperation/insanity. Adralla was no different. She was simply an academic blood mage.

I still don't believe it.

I find it a bit mind-boggling how people will blame Mages for resorting to desperate measures when they're actually forced into those desperate measures by the Templars, as Orsino was.

Because it proves our point. Any mage can find reason enough to use magic in a manner harmful to others.
You tell me that they are being forced into it by the templars but templars are not the only source of desperation in life. There are a million and one reasons in everyday life that can force people into "desperate measures" that don't require templars at all.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 février 2013 - 05:21 .

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

There is no justification, at all, for concealing the existence of a dangerous blood mage for three years when Meredith didn't even have the Idol. In fact, revealing Quentin could have easily won hearts and minds.
Personally, I think Orsino just didn't care about the lives of mundanes.

Your political naivety is really astounding.

Because it proves our point. Any mage can find reason enough to use magic in a manner harmful to others.
You tell me that they are being forced into it by the templars but templars are not the only source of desperation in life. There are a million and one reasons in everyday life that can force people into "desperate measures" that don't require templars at all.

Millions? how many times have you been threatend with your live this year? And even if you where would you do the same thing?

[dragonflight288]

Because it proves our point. Any mage can find reason enough to use magic in a manner harmful to others.
You tell me that they are being forced into it by the templars but templars are not the only source of desperation in life. There are a million and one reasons in everyday life that can force people into "desperate measures" that don't require templars at all.

And most, nearing all, involve templars pushing the mage that far, based on in-game experience. Without templars oppressing mages and driving them to desperation, the reason for turning to blood magic wouldn't be there in most cases. As for the ones that remain, THOSE are the ones templars should focus their efforts and attention on.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Though he does bear the responsibility of hiding blood mage connections and being one himself.

And he's an academic blood mage before Meredith's unjustified, unwarranted, and unethical RoA forced him into desperation/insanity. Adralla was no different. She was simply an academic blood mage.

I find it a bit mind-boggling how people will blame Mages for resorting to desperate measures when they're actually forced into those desperate measures by the Templars, as Orsino was. 

That's like blaming a person for picking up a shotgun and shooting a burglar repeatedly with it after the burglar brandished a knife and other weapons, cut you with it, and threatened your children.

There is no such thing as an "academic blood mage"...
And yes, I would hold a man who killed another man, no matter the justification, responsible for his actions. Granted there is such a thing as mitigating circumstances, for some cases. Blood magic is simply not one of them.

DKJaigen wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

There is no justification, at all, for concealing the existence of a dangerous blood mage for three years when Meredith didn't even have the Idol. In fact, revealing Quentin could have easily won hearts and minds.
Personally, I think Orsino just didn't care about the lives of mundanes.

Your political naivety is really astounding. 

Political motivation =/= justification.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 03 février 2013 - 04:03 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no such thing as an "academic blood mage"...

You better explain that.

Political motivation =/= justification.

Really? So Orsino did not conceal the truth because of the political fallout?

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no such thing as an "academic blood mage"...

You better explain that.

You are either a blood mage or you aren't. Simple as that.

DKJaigen wrote...

Political motivation =/= justification.

Really? So Orsino did not conceal the truth because of the political fallout?

He did. Doesn't justify his actions though. Political motive does not justify covering up a crime, despite whatever Orsino believed would happen, as a fallout of the revealing of the crime.

[DKJaigen]

He did. Doesn't justify his actions though. Political motive does not justify covering up a crime, despite whatever Orsino believed would happen, as a fallout of the revealing of the crime

Thats your opinion but not mine. Doesnt change the fact that MisterJB is very naive what would happen. Saying stuff that he would have won hearts and minds is funny.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And most, nearing all, involve templars pushing the mage that far, based on in-game experience. Without templars oppressing mages and driving them to desperation, the reason for turning to blood magic wouldn't be there in most cases. As for the ones that remain, THOSE are the ones templars should focus their efforts and attention on.

Maybe in DA2, but the blood mages I see in DAO rarely involve Templars pushing mages.  Connor being perhaps the most memorable example.  Then Avernus.  Then we have Uldred and his gang, which may have involved templars pushing mages (though we really don't see any of it occur, for the most part).  Then Caladrius, who is straight up sacrificing elves to boost his Con modifier with no Templar in sight.

That blood mages only exist because of Templar in the vast majority of cases seems pretty false.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

And most, nearing all, involve templars pushing the mage that far, based on in-game experience. Without templars oppressing mages and driving them to desperation, the reason for turning to blood magic wouldn't be there in most cases. As for the ones that remain, THOSE are the ones templars should focus their efforts and attention on.

Maybe in DA2, but the blood mages I see in DAO rarely involve Templars pushing mages.  Connor being perhaps the most memorable example.  Then Avernus.  Then we have Uldred and his gang, which may have involved templars pushing mages (though we really don't see any of it occur, for the most part).  Then Caladrius, who is straight up sacrificing elves to boost his Con modifier with no Templar in sight.

That blood mages only exist because of Templar in the vast majority of cases seems pretty false.

Let's be clear about what we see in DAO.

In DAO we see a half-trained mage child that wasn't sent to his circle because of FEAR (both of the circle itself and because of inspired religious fear/hatred of magic), pushed into an incredibly stressful and bad situation and whose only (poor) source of magical education was the person who tried to murder his father.  Is it any wonder that Conner went abomination.  Even then Conner was NEVER a bloodmage.

As for Uldred, Uldred was a piece of work no question, but his followers.  One of his followers that you talk to during broken circle puts it perfectly when she says that revolutions involve sacrifice and death including Andraste's. 

As for Caladrius, he was a straight up Tevinter magister and bloodmage, but from a place where such was legal.  He wasn't an insane abomination either.  He was perfectly sane and perfectly in control of his magic.  He was simply an evil and heartless man, but bloodmagic didn't make him that way.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...
Let's be clear about what we see in DAO.

In DAO we see a half-trained mage child that wasn't sent to his circle because of FEAR (both of the circle itself and because of inspired religious fear/hatred of magic), pushed into an incredibly stressful and bad situation and whose only (poor) source of magical education was the person who tried to murder his father.  Is it any wonder that Conner went abomination.  Even then Conner was NEVER a bloodmage.

As for Uldred, Uldred was a piece of work no question, but his followers.  One of his followers that you talk to during broken circle puts it perfectly when she says that revolutions involve sacrifice and death including Andraste's. 

As for Caladrius, he was a straight up Tevinter magister and bloodmage, but from a place where such was legal.  He wasn't an insane abomination either.  He was perfectly sane and perfectly in control of his magic.  He was simply an evil and heartless man, but bloodmagic didn't make him that way.

-Polaris

Well that's quite a spin on the situation.  Try not to get too dizzy.  Connor isn't sent to the Circle because Isolde is both ashamed of her mage lineage (which makes sense given, well, Dragon Age) and of losing her child.  Then we have him in a situation that most people are going to find themselves in one day (the death or serious illness of a parent or otherwise important person before you're ready for it (and Connor had it better off than most as a noble)).  Jowan did not try and murder his father, he just was supposed to put him into a reversible coma, which Connor and his demon buddy ruined.  If Connor was not a blood mage, and he very well may not be, that still shows the danger that regular, everyday mages are.  Not every mage is a Hawke or a Mage Warden.

Yes, and they chose to do that in the middle of a Blight, with no plans for what to do afterwards.  Stay on the island?  Well, food stores will run out eventually.  Pillage the nearby farms?  Well Lothering is somewhat close by and that was blighted.  Go elsewhere?  Well, I guess innocent people are fair game right?  She's lucky their revolution failed; I would hate to see a Mage Broodmother.  Emissaries are annoying enough as it is.

But Blood Magic allowed him to take his evil to another level.  Are we going to set our elven slaves to mine lyrium for magic, or are we just going to bleed them?  Blood Magic isn't aways bad, but it needs to be restricted for the good of everyone involved.   And it doesn't matter if he was an abomination.  The argument was that Blood Mages primarily result from Templar intrusion.  There was no Templar intrusion here, though there *should* have been, and that the Chantry was not investigating the plague in the elven quarters is shameful.  Though I suppose Ser Otto was occupied with the haunted orphanage thing going on.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Let's be clear about what we see in DAO.

In DAO we see a half-trained mage child that wasn't sent to his circle because of FEAR (both of the circle itself and because of inspired religious fear/hatred of magic), pushed into an incredibly stressful and bad situation and whose only (poor) source of magical education was the person who tried to murder his father.  Is it any wonder that Conner went abomination.  Even then Conner was NEVER a bloodmage.

As for Uldred, Uldred was a piece of work no question, but his followers.  One of his followers that you talk to during broken circle puts it perfectly when she says that revolutions involve sacrifice and death including Andraste's. 

As for Caladrius, he was a straight up Tevinter magister and bloodmage, but from a place where such was legal.  He wasn't an insane abomination either.  He was perfectly sane and perfectly in control of his magic.  He was simply an evil and heartless man, but bloodmagic didn't make him that way.

-Polaris

Well that's quite a spin on the situation.  Try not to get too dizzy.  Connor isn't sent to the Circle because Isolde is both ashamed of her mage lineage (which makes sense given, well, Dragon Age) and of losing her child.  Then we have him in a situation that most people are going to find themselves in one day (the death or serious illness of a parent or otherwise important person before you're ready for it (and Connor had it better off than most as a noble)).  Jowan did not try and murder his father, he just was supposed to put him into a reversible coma, which Connor and his demon buddy ruined.  If Connor was not a blood mage, and he very well may not be, that still shows the danger that regular, everyday mages are.  Not every mage is a Hawke or a Mage Warden.

There was no spin.  I restated the situation as it was.  In fact Jowan DID try to kill Eamon.  The poison was intended to kill Eamon.  It was the demon that kept Eamon from dying, not anything Jowan did.

Yes, and they chose to do that in the middle of a Blight, with no plans for what to do afterwards.  Stay on the island?  Well, food stores will run out eventually.  Pillage the nearby farms?  Well Lothering is somewhat close by and that was blighted.  Go elsewhere?  Well, I guess innocent people are fair game right?  She's lucky their revolution failed; I would hate to see a Mage Broodmother.  Emissaries are annoying enough as it is.

Oh please, mages have never been captured in prior blights and made into broodmothers?  Sheer statistics (prior blights lasted for decades and the circle very much did fight alongside the wardens to fight them) say that this is almost a stastical certainty.

When ELSE should Uldred and his followers attempt a revolution especially when Loghain was offering the open backing of the nobility after they won.  (You seem to forget that part).  You do a revolution when the current system is under stress since any revolt or revolution is going to be difficult.  Remember that the rebels would have had (or so they thought anyway) the backing of the Regent of Fereldan if they won.  You are inventing difficulties and issues that aren't there.

But Blood Magic allowed him to take his evil to another level.  Are we going to set our elven slaves to mine lyrium for magic, or are we just going to bleed them?  Blood Magic isn't aways bad, but it needs to be restricted for the good of everyone involved.   And it doesn't matter if he was an abomination.  The argument was that Blood Mages primarily result from Templar intrusion.  There was no Templar intrusion here, though there *should* have been, and that the Chantry was not investigating the plague in the elven quarters is shameful.  Though I suppose Ser Otto was occupied with the haunted orphanage thing going on.

The argument is that Bloodmages in Andrastian lands primarily result from Templar intrusian.  Tevinter has it's own chantry, and there bloodmages exist because to be a magister and not be a bloodmage is to sign your death warrent to other magisters who are...but Tevinter is a very vile nation in a lot of ways and not a fair comparison for the rest of Thedas.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Im pretty sure that Loghain states, that he never intended for Eamon to die, but only to incapacitate him for the landsmeet.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Im pretty sure that Loghain states, that he never intended for Eamon to die, but only to incapacitate him for the landsmeet.

Eamon right afterwards pretty clearly states that had the demon not interfered, he would have died.  Frankly I found much of Logains convo to be....self-serving (to put it nicely).  Loghain needed Eamon out of the way, and death is best and most certain way to insure this.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Anders is to blame for blowing up the Cathedral, but honestly if Anders hadn't have done it, Meredith would have (very soon) found a way to justify killing Elthina herself since the Grand Cleric was "obviously" under the influence of Bloodmagic (as was anyone that disagreed with Meredith in the end).  In fact I wouldn't have put it past Meredith to encourage some rogue mage group to do it and then have her blame it on magic.

Interesting fanfiction.

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...
There was no spin.  I restated the situation as it was.  In fact Jowan DID try to kill Eamon.  The poison was intended to kill Eamon.  It was the demon that kept Eamon from dying, not anything Jowan did.

Oh please, mages have never been captured in prior blights and made into broodmothers?  Sheer statistics (prior blights lasted for decades and the circle very much did fight alongside the wardens to fight them) say that this is almost a stastical certainty.

When ELSE should Uldred and his followers attempt a revolution especially when Loghain was offering the open backing of the nobility after they won.  (You seem to forget that part).  You do a revolution when the current system is under stress since any revolt or revolution is going to be difficult.  Remember that the rebels would have had (or so they thought anyway) the backing of the Regent of Fereldan if they won.  You are inventing difficulties and issues that aren't there.

The argument is that Bloodmages in Andrastian lands primarily result from Templar intrusian.  Tevinter has it's own chantry, and there bloodmages exist because to be a magister and not be a bloodmage is to sign your death warrent to other magisters who are...but Tevinter is a very vile nation in a lot of ways and not a fair comparison for the rest of Thedas.
-Polaris

Uh... Not at all, really.  It was meant to put Eomen out of the picture, but not to kill him.  That's why Loghain had a spy there who was supposed to report back to Denerim in case the condition worsened.  But he couldn't because of all the zombies. Which is entirely on Connor.

I'm sure they did.  I'm not sure why you would want her to become a broodmother.  I mean, I don't like blood mages much myself, but I don't want to to be raped and forced to become cannibals. 

Because I'm sure Orlais, being fairly engrained in the Chantry and with legions of Chevaliers on Fereldan's borders (which Uldred would know about, being as he was at Ostagar), would just take that sitting down.  And had Uldred completely destroyed the Circle, the mages still would have fallen to the Blight given the lack of Grey Wardens going around.  And they don't even have the excuse Loghain did about not being in the know; they helped to prepare the Joining ingredients.

Now you're just moving goal posts. :/
And it is a fair comparison, as we see Mages turning to blood magic in the face of, well, life's difficulties.  Are we going to start forgiving every tough decision that people are going to make?  Well, it was okay for Connor to deal with a demon and raise an army of undead, his dad was ill.  It was totally okay for Caladrius to enslave those elves and use their blood for rituals, that's the only way to get ahead in Tevinter!  Avernus doing horrible experiments on his fellow wardens is for the greater good and we should just throw Wardens (probably Andrastian Orlesians, because we hate the Chantry, after all) at him. 

Life is hard.  Doesn't get much easier in Dragon Age, with blights, bandit raids, death of a family member, threats from the nobility, poor medicine, the threats of abominations and undead, not really much of a social ladder than can be climbed.  A mage using one of these as an excuse to turn to blood magic (or just their own magic) to harm others and get ahead is rather weak and we can call them out on it.  That the Templar cause problems in Kirkwall, which seems to be the worst place for a Circle in all of Thedas outside the Deep Roads, does not allow for a blanket statement of templars being the primary cause for blood magic. 

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
There was no spin.  I restated the situation as it was.  In fact Jowan DID try to kill Eamon.  The poison was intended to kill Eamon.  It was the demon that kept Eamon from dying, not anything Jowan did.

Oh please, mages have never been captured in prior blights and made into broodmothers?  Sheer statistics (prior blights lasted for decades and the circle very much did fight alongside the wardens to fight them) say that this is almost a stastical certainty.

When ELSE should Uldred and his followers attempt a revolution especially when Loghain was offering the open backing of the nobility after they won.  (You seem to forget that part).  You do a revolution when the current system is under stress since any revolt or revolution is going to be difficult.  Remember that the rebels would have had (or so they thought anyway) the backing of the Regent of Fereldan if they won.  You are inventing difficulties and issues that aren't there.

The argument is that Bloodmages in Andrastian lands primarily result from Templar intrusian.  Tevinter has it's own chantry, and there bloodmages exist because to be a magister and not be a bloodmage is to sign your death warrent to other magisters who are...but Tevinter is a very vile nation in a lot of ways and not a fair comparison for the rest of Thedas.
-Polaris

Uh... Not at all, really.  It was meant to put Eomen out of the picture, but not to kill him.  That's why Loghain had a spy there who was supposed to report back to Denerim in case the condition worsened.  But he couldn't because of all the zombies. Which is entirely on Connor.

It is made very clear that the poison was supposed to kill Eamon and it was the demon's intervention that stopped it.  There is nothing in the spy's letter that says taht Eamon was supposed to live.  Just that he was to moniter the situation.  It doesn't prove what you think it does.

I'm sure they did.  I'm not sure why you would want her to become a broodmother.  I mean, I don't like blood mages much myself, but I don't want to to be raped and forced to become cannibals. 

Stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said any such thing.  I am pointing out that it almost certainly did happen and the world did not end.  Freedom comes with risk or it's not freedom.  You are unfairly using the blight as a reason why a person should not fight for freedom.

Because I'm sure Orlais, being fairly engrained in the Chantry and with legions of Chevaliers on Fereldan's borders (which Uldred would know about, being as he was at Ostagar), would just take that sitting down.  And had Uldred completely destroyed the Circle, the mages still would have fallen to the Blight given the lack of Grey Wardens going around.  And they don't even have the excuse Loghain did about not being in the know; they helped to prepare the Joining ingredients.

In a time of blight?  Yes they would.  Celene would make sure of it since getting involved in a major war in a time of blight is stupid.  How do I know this?  King Alister is openly harboring apostates and (with a mage warden) attempts to take over the Circle of Magi, and Orlais has done nothing....and after the events of Asunder Orlais is in no position to do anything.

Now you're just moving goal posts. :/
And it is a fair comparison, as we see Mages turning to blood magic in the face of, well, life's difficulties.  Are we going to start forgiving every tough decision that people are going to make?  Well, it was okay for Connor to deal with a demon and raise an army of undead, his dad was ill.  It was totally okay for Caladrius to enslave those elves and use their blood for rituals, that's the only way to get ahead in Tevinter!  Avernus doing horrible experiments on his fellow wardens is for the greater good and we should just throw Wardens (probably Andrastian Orlesians, because we hate the Chantry, after all) at him. 

This is bullpucky.  Mages don't become abominations at the drop of a hat or because they have a bad hair day whatever DA2 dishonestly tries to present (remember that the Veil is almost non-existent in Kirkwall).  Being forced to fight for your life against drug-addicted religous zealots is another matter.  It is dishonest and wrong to blame the victim and that is exatly what you are doing here.

Life is hard.  Doesn't get much easier in Dragon Age, with blights, bandit raids, death of a family member, threats from the nobility, poor medicine, the threats of abominations and undead, not really much of a social ladder than can be climbed.  A mage using one of these as an excuse to turn to blood magic (or just their own magic) to harm others and get ahead is rather weak and we can call them out on it.  That the Templar cause problems in Kirkwall, which seems to be the worst place for a Circle in all of Thedas outside the Deep Roads, does not allow for a blanket statement of templars being the primary cause for blood magic. 

Again this is more bullpucky.  There weren't any circles and mages lived alongside mundanes for thousands of years and the world and civilization didn't come crashing down.  That means that mage go "abomination" far less often and it is far more difficult than you want us to believe.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

It is made very clear that the poison was supposed to kill Eamon and it was the demon's intervention that stopped it.  There is nothing in the spy's letter that says taht Eamon was supposed to live.  Just that he was to moniter the situation.  It doesn't prove what you think it does.

Stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said any such thing.  I am pointing out that it almost certainly did happen and the world did not end.  Freedom comes with risk or it's not freedom.  You are unfairly using the blight as a reason why a person should not fight for freedom.

In a time of blight?  Yes they would.  Celene would make sure of it since getting involved in a major war in a time of blight is stupid.  How do I know this?  King Alister is openly harboring apostates and (with a mage warden) attempts to take over the Circle of Magi, and Orlais has done nothing....and after the events of Asunder Orlais is in no position to do anything.

This is bullpucky.  Mages don't become abominations at the drop of a hat or because they have a bad hair day whatever DA2 dishonestly tries to present (remember that the Veil is almost non-existent in Kirkwall).  Being forced to fight for your life against drug-addicted religous zealots is another matter.  It is dishonest and wrong to blame the victim and that is exatly what you are doing here.

Again this is more bullpucky.  There weren't any circles and mages lived alongside mundanes for thousands of years and the world and civilization didn't come crashing down.  That means that mage go "abomination" far less often and it is far more difficult than you want us to believe.

-Polaris

The demon's intervention certainly made things worse.  The letter says "Let us know if there are any changes".  Well, Eamon was in a coma.  If he was expected to die, he would have already left.  He was stable. 

Well, you didn't give any idea of what they would do once they destroyed the Circle.  Blight to the south, a country in the middle of a civil war in every other direction.  They have Loghain's promise of support, but at the same time, that doesn't mean all that much.  And unfairly?  Sorry, I guess their freedom is more important than everyone not being turned into a ghoul or eaten.  Truly it is the greatest of ideals to strive for.

Invasion immediately afterwards, with the old plan of letting Ferelden destroy itself.  And Orlais has used the Blight as reason for expansion in the past, just ask the Dwarf riding the Gorilla.  So the Mages succeed in getting the country overrun by Orlesians.  Again.  Way to go, guys, now *everyone* is getting raped by Chevaliers instead of Kirkwall mages.

But they do.  Connor's dad is dying.  Abomination!  And he's a noble, his life is so much better than some young mage who is in poverty, with a drunk dad and a whoring mother, bullied for his powers.  But I'm sure that's the Templar's fault too, for some reason.  Why wouldn't the kid make a deal with a demon, learn blood magic and sacrifice a few of the people he considers monsters to get ahead?  Or a mage who, living in a village that has been beset by famine, decide to make a deal with a demon to learn spells that make plants grow.  He things he has it under control, but the demon betrays him and takes over.  Well, good going there.

Well, if I recall correctly, before the creation of the Circles there were far more abominations running around, and as they are much more badass in lore than in combat (which should be rectified), that's just wrong.  But please, if you have an in depth guide to the entire history of Thedas (which I can't find bias, because as you know, if someone considers something biased, we can just throw it out!) , do share.

[Chashan]

As for the thread's question itself: personally, I do not see a single reason for Hawke to side with the paranoid, bullying bunch that is the Kirkwall chapter of the Templar order.
In DA:O, Templar mostly made at least a bit of sense and did not seem overly lunatic nuts unlike the good madame Meredith in DA2 and certain henchmen of hers who dropped such nuggets as the "Tranquil Solution". With that type of charged term, it is very much understandable if one condemns the White Chantry's policing of mages simply by association.

Which is one of the key problems I see with the mage-Templar argument at large: not too much finesse at all evident in its presentation, and execution. Something hopefully rectified in DA:I, one may hope.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The demon's intervention certainly made things worse.  The letter says "Let us know if there are any changes".  Well, Eamon was in a coma.  If he was expected to die, he would have already left.  He was stable.

I seem to recall as much. Yet, unlike you do, I would single out another certain bit regarding why this "hibernation" of Eamon went awry...

Well, you didn't give any idea of what they would do once they destroyed the Circle.  Blight to the south, a country in the middle of a civil war in every other direction.  They have Loghain's promise of support, but at the same time, that doesn't mean all that much.  And unfairly?  Sorry, I guess their freedom is more important than everyone not being turned into a ghoul or eaten.  Truly it is the greatest of ideals to strive for.

Pardon if I may have skimmed specifics here, but Uldred's rampage is the topic there, yes?

If so, then I will have to agree that Uldred, especially, cannot in any way cite "fighting the good fight" as justification for the freakshow he is having in the Tower.

Invasion immediately afterwards, with the old plan of letting Ferelden destroy itself.  And Orlais has used the Blight as reason for expansion in the past, just ask the Dwarf riding the Gorilla.  So the Mages succeed in getting the country overrun by Orlesians.  Again.  Way to go, guys, now *everyone* is getting raped by Chevaliers instead of Kirkwall mages.

Orlais does deserve to have a Blight all of its own on its doorstep, to be had. Or else some serious revolution or another to shake its foundations and put both White Chantry and Chevaliers into their place, so no argument here.

But they do.  Connor's dad is dying.  Abomination!  And he's a noble, his life is so much better than some young mage who is in poverty, with a drunk dad and a whoring mother, bullied for his powers.  But I'm sure that's the Templar's fault too, for some reason.  Why wouldn't the kid make a deal with a demon, learn blood magic and sacrifice a few of the people he considers monsters to get ahead?  Or a mage who, living in a village that has been beset by famine, decide to make a deal with a demon to learn spells that make plants grow.  He things he has it under control, but the demon betrays him and takes over.  Well, good going there.

There is the key-word: Connor is a child, not yet entirely aware of the repercussions of his decisions and capable of taking responsibility in full. That he happens to have the gift of magic is merely circumstance.

I would certainly highlight that as one of the cornerstones to the dilemma at Redcliffe instead of the fundamental "magic is all bad"-precipice. And yes, personally, I do prefer going the "easy" route of enlisting Circle-aid to resolve that particular situation, along with cleaning up the mess that is Uldred.

Well, if I recall correctly, before the creation of the Circles there were far more abominations running around, and as they are much more badass in lore than in combat (which should be rectified), that's just wrong.  But please, if you have an in depth guide to the entire history of Thedas (which I can't find bias, because as you know, if someone considers something biased, we can just throw it out!) , do share.

One point here, and I take my initial statement about the mage-Templar conflict being somewhat too heavy-handed up again:
I think what would have best worked to create a dilemma there would be to highlight the source of magic, the Beyond, as the key fickle element in the relation between magic and its users, instead of going out of one's way and reducing every last practitioner of it to mad, evul loonies personality-wise.

As is, as extreme as it may sound: I prefer both the thorough approach to controlling mages as done by the Qun and acknowledging the value of them and letting them sort out themselves through brutal competition as done within the Imperial Magistrate and Black Chantry to the half-baked, ineffectual approach of the White and its Templar order.

[BlueMagitek]

Chashan wrote...

I seem to recall as much. Yet, unlike you do, I would single out another certain bit regarding why this "hibernation" of Eamon went awry...

Pardon if I may have skimmed specifics here, but Uldred's rampage is the topic there, yes?

If so, then I will have to agree that Uldred, especially, cannot in any way cite "fighting the good fight" as justification for the freakshow he is having in the Tower.

There is the key-word: Connor is a child, not yet entirely aware of the repercussions of his decisions and capable of taking responsibility in full. That he happens to have the gift of magic is merely circumstance.

I would certainly highlight that as one of the cornerstones to the dilemma at Redcliffe instead of the fundamental "magic is all bad"-precipice. And yes, personally, I do prefer going the "easy" route of enlisting Circle-aid to resolve that particular situation, along with cleaning up the mess that is Uldred.

One point here, and I take my initial statement about the mage-Templar conflict being somewhat too heavy-handed up again:
I think what would have best worked to create a dilemma there would be to highlight the source of magic, the Beyond, as the key fickle element in the relation between magic and its users, instead of going out of one's way and reducing every last practitioner of it to mad, evul loonies personality-wise.

As is, as extreme as it may sound: I prefer both the thorough approach to controlling mages as done by the Qun and acknowledging the value of them and letting them sort out themselves through brutal competition as done within the Imperial Magistrate and Black Chantry to the half-baked, ineffectual approach of the White and its Templar order.

Fair enough.

Yes, we're talking about Uldred's plan (or lack of) after he destroys the Circle.  Assuming he managed this without becoming Destroy All the Things Abomination Uldred. 

I'm not arguing that magic is bad.  Indeed, it has many useful applications.  The argument there is that it is dangerous, especially in the hands of those who don't know (children) or should know better (arrogant mages who fail to resist a demon).  A demon is promising a power to strike back at someone's enemies (especially when many mages barely have the power to light a candle without blood magic or other help), why wouldn't a bullied or downtrodden child accept?  Or a downtrodden mage starving in Denerim?

Ah, it depends.  My mage protagonist will go back to the Circle.  Most of the others would just kill Connor, save the DN & HN.  

Such is the price of an attempt at mercy, then.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Eamon right afterwards pretty clearly states that had the demon not interfered, he would have died.

Just because Eamon believes that to be the case doesn't make it so.

Frankly I found much of Logains convo to be....self-serving (to put it nicely).  Loghain needed Eamon out of the way, and death is best and most certain way to insure this.

-Polaris

But Eamon didn't die after the Demon had been taken care of, when earlier the Demon would say that if she died so did Eamon. And Demons lie.

Plus, DG said Eamon was given an incapacitating poison, not one that was meant to kill him. Death was certainly possible -- hence why Berwick was sent -- but it wasn't the intention. If Eamon was looking like he was going to die, Berwick was to send a message saying such to the man he was employed by -- who answered to Arl Howe.

The idea Loghain had was that he would be informed and ship off the antidote immediately so that Eamon could recover, but if he did die before the antidote could be given then he wouldn't bawl his eyes out -- though I imagine Loghain might be bothered by it.

But given Howe's persona, he would've been told by his subordinate about Eamon's perilous condition and would have conveniently "forgotten" about it, so that he could plan how to take Redcliffe for himself. The man is never satisified with what he's got. He desires more, evidenced by his usurpation of Highever and Denerim -- which grants him the greater part of the Coastlands -- and I'd argue his imprisonment of two relatives of two important banns.