587 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There is no such thing as an "academic blood mage"...

Yes, there is. Adralla was one.

IanPolaris wrote...

Eamon right afterwards pretty clearly states that had the demon not interfered, he would have died.

Just because Eamon believes that to be the case doesn't make it so.

Frankly I found much of Logains convo to be....self-serving (to put it nicely).  Loghain needed Eamon out of the way, and death is best and most certain way to insure this.

-Polaris

But Eamon didn't die after the Demon had been taken care of, when earlier the Demon would say that if she died so did Eamon. And Demons lie.

Plus, DG said Eamon was given an incapacitating poison, not one that was meant to kill him. Death was certainly possible -- hence why Berwick was sent -- but it wasn't the intention. If Eamon was looking like he was going to die, Berwick was to send a message saying such to the man he was employed by -- who answered to Arl Howe. 

The idea Loghain had was that he would be informed and ship off the antidote immediately so that Eamon could recover, but if he did die before the antidote could be given then he wouldn't bawl his eyes out -- though I imagine Loghain might be bothered by it.

But given Howe's persona, he would've been told by his subordinate about Eamon's perilous condition and would have conveniently "forgotten" about it, so that he could plan how to take Redcliffe for himself. The man is never satisified with what he's got. He desires more, evidenced by his usurpation of Highever and Denerim -- which grants him the greater part of the Coastlands -- and I'd argue his imprisonment of two relatives of two important banns.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2013 - 03:15 .

[MisterJB]

Chashan wrote...
There is the key-word: Connor is a child, not yet entirely aware of the repercussions of his decisions and capable of taking responsibility in full. That he happens to have the gift of magic is merely circumstance.

I would certainly highlight that as one of the cornerstones to the dilemma at Redcliffe instead of the fundamental "magic is all bad"-precipice. And yes, personally, I do prefer going the "easy" route of enlisting Circle-aid to resolve that particular situation, along with cleaning up the mess that is Uldred.

But Quentin was no untrained child, however, and his reaction was very much the same: Play Make-a-Wish Foundation with a demon. Several, in fact.
Evelina was a surrogate mother who was corrupted from the Anger of seeing her childred starve and the Desire to give them a better life. Even Wynne herself, when Rhys is in danger, grabs a staff filled with dark power and loses all control over herself.

None of these situations require the involvement of templars.

[IanPolaris]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, if I recall correctly, before the creation of the Circles there were far more abominations running around, and as they are much more badass in lore than in combat (which should be rectified), that's just wrong.  But please, if you have an in depth guide to the entire history of Thedas (which I can't find bias, because as you know, if someone considers something biased, we can just throw it out!) , do share.

You don't recall correctly.  There has never been any lore or evidence that has been presented that shows there were far more abominations running around before the circles than afterwords.  I know because I have been calling for such actual FACTS and LORE for years from the Devs or from pro-templar supports and no one has ever been able to show anything of the kind.

Indeed basic anthropology shows that mages could not possibly go "abmination" as often or as easily as you (or the chantry) would have us believe.  If so, then no small tribe could ever have a sufficient growth rate to survive let alone become an advanced civilization.

-Polaris

[BlueMagitek]

IanPolaris wrote...

You don't recall correctly.  There has never been any lore or evidence that has been presented that shows there were far more abominations running around before the circles than afterwords.  I know because I have been calling for such actual FACTS and LORE for years from the Devs or from pro-templar supports and no one has ever been able to show anything of the kind.

Indeed basic anthropology shows that mages could not possibly go "abmination" as often or as easily as you (or the chantry) would have us believe.  If so, then no small tribe could ever have a sufficient growth rate to survive let alone become an advanced civilization.

-Polaris

I believe it was from a question posed to DG.  Perhaps EWR can shed more light on it, because I know he is more up to date with the lore than I am. 

And before the White Chantry it was mostly Tevinter run, so the abominations were probably dealt with accordingly by blood mages who would rather rule than destroy everything.  Prior to that, I suppose you have the elven story of Arlathan, where everything was candy and delicious until those icky humans came along.

Considering we see it happen to a kid in game, and seems to be not entirely uncommon at Harrowings, I don't believe it is as difficult as you think.  Why wouldn't a poor kid turn to a demon to save his mother or father?  And, you know, basic anthropology doesn't really matter in a fictional world.  Basic *anything* tends to go out the window in a fantasy world.  What good are basic tactics and strategies when a mage has just sent you to a different plane?  If we're going to be annoyed, how are the Dwarves not all completely inbred being restricted to one city with no growth from lack of retaking Thaigs on a regular basis? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, if I recall correctly, before the creation of the Circles there were far more abominations running around, and as they are much more badass in lore than in combat (which should be rectified), that's just wrong.  But please, if you have an in depth guide to the entire history of Thedas (which I can't find bias, because as you know, if someone considers something biased, we can just throw it out!) , do share.

You don't recall correctly.  There has never been any lore or evidence that has been presented that shows there were far more abominations running around before the circles than afterwords.  I know because I have been calling for such actual FACTS and LORE for years from the Devs or from pro-templar supports and no one has ever been able to show anything of the kind.

Indeed basic anthropology shows that mages could not possibly go "abmination" as often or as easily as you (or the chantry) would have us believe.  If so, then no small tribe could ever have a sufficient growth rate to survive let alone become an advanced civilization.

-Polaris

Yes they would have been able to grow. Just not as fast. However, given that Thedas is a fantastical setting, fields such as anthropology are more or less useless, since the different societies will develop at the exact rate the writers wish them to, despite what anthropologists would say is realistic.

Before the Circles, there must have been more untrained mages, and thus logically more cases of abominations. However, it isn't as much about there being more abominations before the Circle, as much as it is about the few that were had a far larger impact on society. The few that are now, are usually contained within the Circles, or straight up prevented from ever happening by Circle trainning.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 04 février 2013 - 04:57 .

[Chashan]

MisterJB wrote...

But Quentin was no untrained child, however, and his reaction was very much the same: Play Make-a-Wish Foundation with a demon. Several, in fact.
Evelina was a surrogate mother who was corrupted from the Anger of seeing her childred starve and the Desire to give them a better life. Even Wynne herself, when Rhys is in danger, grabs a staff filled with dark power and loses all control over herself.

None of these situations require the involvement of templars.

Uhm, I was strictly speaking of Connor, in that case.

That BW decided to turn nearly every single adult mage NPC into loonies in DA2 is something I take fault with, as I mentioned. Although given the particular grievance of Quentin...I daresay that I can see why he turned loopy. Same goes for Evelina, who, as pointed out somewhere else, was driven into her predicament due to both neglect of Chanters and fears of Templar.
In Q.'s case that does of course not excuse the lunacy he is conducting. Which can be dealt with in the same vein as other psychotic murderers. Concerning Evelina, arguing that the paranoid policy of Meredith-gone-mad has a lot to do with producing that kind of thing has its merits.

And yes, there is a fine point there: Templar are not required to police mages, practitioners of magic can do that themselves.
BW does owe us a presentation of how things precisely work within the Imperium's boundaries, beyond the pamphlets provided by the White Chantry. The Imperial take on the Templar order would be interesting to see indeed...

[MisterJB]

Chashan wrote...
Uhm, I was strictly speaking of Connor, in that case.

That BW decided to turn nearly every single adult mage NPC into loonies in DA2 is something I take fault with, as I mentioned. Although given the particular grievance of Quentin...I daresay that I can see why he turned loopy. Same goes for Evelina, who, as pointed out somewhere else, was driven into her predicament due to both neglect of Chanters and fears of Templar.
In Q.'s case that does of course not excuse the lunacy he is conducting. Which can be dealt with in the same vein as other psychotic murderers. Concerning Evelina, arguing that the paranoid policy of Meredith-gone-mad has a lot to do with producing that kind of thing has its merits.

And yes, there is a fine point there: Templar are not required to police mages, practitioners of magic can do that themselves.
BW does owe us a presentation of how things precisely work within the Imperium's boundaries, beyond the pamphlets provided by the White Chantry. The Imperial take on the Templar order would be interesting to see indeed...

I believe you misunderstood me; or I am the one misunderstanding you; I do not intend to suggest that mages should police mages. History has shown us that people are likely to ignore crimes commited by their kin against other groups of people.

What I mean to say is that these mages who were, supposedly, "pushed into desperation by the templars" were, in fact, pushed into desperation by common grievances that can happen to those free. The world is full of suffering that the templars do not contribute to that can lead to a mage abusing his powers.
Quentin's grievance was caused by something as common and inexorable as the passage of time, for instance.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Chashan wrote...
Uhm, I was strictly speaking of Connor, in that case.

That BW decided to turn nearly every single adult mage NPC into loonies in DA2 is something I take fault with, as I mentioned. Although given the particular grievance of Quentin...I daresay that I can see why he turned loopy. Same goes for Evelina, who, as pointed out somewhere else, was driven into her predicament due to both neglect of Chanters and fears of Templar.
In Q.'s case that does of course not excuse the lunacy he is conducting. Which can be dealt with in the same vein as other psychotic murderers. Concerning Evelina, arguing that the paranoid policy of Meredith-gone-mad has a lot to do with producing that kind of thing has its merits.

And yes, there is a fine point there: Templar are not required to police mages, practitioners of magic can do that themselves.
BW does owe us a presentation of how things precisely work within the Imperium's boundaries, beyond the pamphlets provided by the White Chantry. The Imperial take on the Templar order would be interesting to see indeed...

I believe you misunderstood me; or I am the one misunderstanding you; I do not intend to suggest that mages should police mages. History has shown us that people are likely to ignore crimes commited by their kin against other groups of people.

What I mean to say is that these mages who were, supposedly, "pushed into desperation by the templars" were, in fact, pushed into desperation by common grievances that can happen to those free. The world is full of suffering that the templars do not contribute to that can lead to a mage abusing his powers.
Quentin's grievance was caused by something as common and inexorable as the passage of time, for instance.

And so mages and templars need to police mages as equals. Mages cannot be trusted to police themselves and be the only ones doing so. I have yet to see one mage supporter call for the complete destruction of the templars or of people with templar like abiliites and training. Every single mage supporter here has made it clear that templars have a very clear purpose.

But the in-game events and thedas history has also proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the templars and the chantry cannot be trusted to guard, observe and advice mages either. If not mages, because then we'd have a card-pyramid style of police-work eventually, and not templars because of religious dogma and prejudice adding up into an abusive environment, then it has to be some other group not related to the Chantry at all, or mages and templars working together, possibly allowing mages to investigate templars legally, with the backing of the Knight-Commander, and templars investigating mages with the backing of the First Enchanter.

If that solution is not optimal to anyone, then it must be a third-party with no relations to the Chantry in any way, shape or form, and without the lyrium addiction, and even that third party needs to be held accountable for its actions by some other group who focuses ONLY on that group, and that third group be held accountable by the mages or something.

Checks, and balances keep each one from getting more power over the other two, and the other two help keep their own side in check, punishing those who abuse their power or turn criminal.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I believe it was from a question posed to DG. Perhaps EWR can shed more light on it, because I know he is more up to date with the lore than I am.

All I know is that prior to the inception of the Circles, Mages were kept in the tight control of the Chantry and relegated to being magical servants -- lighting candles, dusting the rafters, etc. They could control their magic for more powerful applications, but it was made illegal for them to use it at all save for during things like the Blights -- where Drakon I used them to fight the Darkspawn.

Before that, the Inquisition had been hunting down Mages due to everything the Imperium had done. Blood Mages, cultists, hedge wizards, etc. It makes note of how the Inquisition was actually the source of a lot of terror at that time and only the Chantry managed to quell them by saying "Hey, we've got similar goals, but you guys should team up with us and curb your enthusiasm". This is made known in a few sources, some in-game and out.

Then boom, Templars and Seekers were created.

Then the Mages protested peacefully in the Grand Cathedral, something that almost earned them a Divine's wrath by way of Exalted March -- which only her Templars stopped but I'm not entirely convinced that this wasn't just done to preserve the church and not the lives of the Mages.

After many back and forth shoutings, the Mages agreed to go into seclusion under supervision if they were granted the ability to hone their skills as Mages properly.

The Templars then began a systematic sweep of any Mages left in the land that were apostates and brought them to the Circles, which began to pop up depending on the number of Mages in a land.

There would be little Mage hamlets out in the wilds -- not the size of a village, but definitely a tiny society -- and the Templars would come in. These little Mage societies eked out an existence before and after the Circles' inception by training their magic and using it.

The relationship between Templars and Mages when the Circles were instituted has always been kinda strained.

But as for Abominations? I can't say I recall much being mentioned of them being a regular occurrence prior to the Circles popping up on the grid.

BlueMagitek wrote...

If we're going to be annoyed, how are the Dwarves not all completely inbred being restricted to one city with no growth from lack of retaking Thaigs on a regular basis?  

To be fair, we've never gotten an estimate on how many Dwarves there are in Orzammar, but I'd say that there are at least 100,000+ living there which allows for enough genetic diversity. We see thousands upon thousands of soldiers marching from Orzammar to fight the Blight, but are told that this isn't even the full strength of their armies as many nobles are keeping their personal forces behind.

That's actually the primary reason why they don't retake thaigs on a regular basis. The nobles are far too petty with their men.

And those numbers aren't even taking into account the Smith Caste, Merchant Caste, Servant Caste, Casteless, etc.

Now... granted Orzammar in-game looks very tiny. Which is a shame, because the artwork for it made it look massive.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2013 - 05:41 .

[dragonflight288]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I believe it was from a question posed to DG. Perhaps EWR can shed more light on it, because I know he is more up to date with the lore than I am.

All I know is that prior to the inception of the Circles, Mages were kept in the tight control of the Chantry and relegated to being magical servants -- lighting candles, dusting the rafters, etc. They could control their magic for more powerful applications, but it was made illegal for them to use it at all save for during things like the Blights -- where Drakon I used them to fight the Darkspawn.

Before that, the Inquisition had been hunting down Mages due to everything the Imperium had done. Blood Mages, cultists, hedge wizards, etc. It makes note of how the Inquisition was actually the source of a lot of terror at that time and only the Chantry managed to quell them by saying "Hey, we've got similar goals, but you guys should team up with us and curb your enthusiasm". This is made known in a few sources, some in-game and out.

Then boom, Templars and Seekers were created.

Then the Mages protested peacefully in the Grand Cathedral, something that almost earned them a Divine's wrath by way of Exalted March -- which only her Templars stopped but I'm not entirely convinced that this wasn't just done to preserve the church and not the lives of the Mages.

After many back and forth shoutings, the Mages agreed to go into seclusion under supervision if they were granted the ability to hone their skills as Mages properly.

The Templars then began a systematic sweep of any Mages left in the land that were apostates and brought them to the Circles, which began to pop up depending on the number of Mages in a land.

There would be little Mage hamlets out in the wilds -- not the size of a village, but definitely a tiny society -- and the Templars would come in. These little Mage societies eked out an existence before and after the Circles' inception by training their magic and using it.

The relationship between Templars and Mages when the Circles were instituted has always been kinda strained.

But as for Abominations? I can't say I recall much being mentioned of them being a regular occurrence prior to the Circles popping up on the grid.

This can be seen in Kirkwall...sort of. It's kind of a stretch, but not that much of one, but I hope everyone hears me out on this.

My Grey Warden in Ferelden has gone through the Circle and dealth with Uldred's rebellion, full of blood mages, and was told that the litany was written by a bard when we know for a fact that Adralla was actually a magister. My warden just dealt with some blood mages on behalf of the mages collective in the Brecilian Forest, and they accused him of doing the templars dirty work for the Collective (which is evidence that the Mages Collective does a legitimate job of taking care of problems before the templars and the Chantry get involved.) My Warden cleared out an entire warehouse of blood mages in Denerim. My Warden has faced more blood mages during a blight in less than a year than Hawke faced in five years in Kirkwall.

It was only aAFTER Meredith took power in the City of Chains that Kirkwall started having bloodmages running rampant through the streets, within three years of her taking power. The five years before that....we faced maybe five or six blood mages tops. Six blood mages in five years is not a blood mage problem. Sounds like a normal statistic for templars and city guards to fight.

If cracking down on mages was the answer, then Meredith would've prevented blood mages from roaming Kirkwall entirely. Not multiplied the number of them beyond belief.

Kind of like prohibition. Crack down on it, but that does absolutely nothing to stop it. Only encourage, and sometimes drives people to it.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

There is no justification, at all, for concealing the existence of a dangerous blood mage for three years when Meredith didn't even have the Idol. In fact, revealing Quentin could have easily won hearts and minds.

Of the populus, maybe.

Of the Templars, only the ones who are moderates. And the moderates are, as Meredith has made clear by her promotions of extremists, not given enough importance to really sway the minds of other Templars.

Personally, I think Orsino just didn't care about the lives of mundanes.

He does care about the mundanes. He tries to get Meredith to do her true duty instead of oppressing Mage and mundane alike, wants to be able to speak before Meredith's RoA destroys Kirkwall to the ground, and so on.

Because it proves our point. Any mage can find reason enough to use magic in a manner harmful to others.
You tell me that they are being forced into it by the templars but templars are not the only source of desperation in life. There are a million and one reasons in everyday life that can force people into "desperate measures" that don't require templars at all.

No, the Templars are not the only source of desperation. If a Mage turns to blood magic on his own, then he's to be held accountable. If he does it to save a family member that has long since died, then he's to be held accountable.

But if the Templars are the actual cause of the blood magic, then the Mage is not to be held accountable. A Mage that turns to blood magic because he's about to be butchered like a cow for a crime someone else committed is not at fault. Should he die meekly on his knees just to preserve some sense of innocence that he's not receiving at that moment? Or should he fight back to stay alive?

Simply being a Mage does not mean that they are not allowed to fight back against injustice. 

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Of the populus, maybe.

Of the Templars, only the ones who are moderates. And the moderates are, as Meredith has made clear by her promotions of extremists, not given enough importance to really sway the minds of other Templars.

Meredith accuses Orsino of helping blood mages and we know for a fact he is doing just that, even if it was just Quentin, which is doubtful.
Helping in the execution of Quentin; that guy is way beyond control inside the Circle; could even lead to Meredith seeing Orsino as more of an ally and less of an enemy. It's worth a try.

He does care about the mundanes. He tries to get Meredith to do her true duty instead of oppressing Mage and mundane alike, wants to be able to speak before Meredith's RoA destroys Kirkwall to the ground, and so on.

Meredith wasn't opressing the general mundane population, only those who assisted mages in escaping and I wouldn't exactly call that opression. And undermining the power of his enemy as viscountess makes sense by itself, it doesn't necessarely imply a regard for mundanes.
And his words in the Last Straw could be a simple attempt to manipulated Meredith with something that she cares about, not something that he cares about.
His codex entry suggests resentment over the Circle and anti-mundane sentiment.

No, the Templars are not the only source of desperation. If a Mage turns to blood magic on his own, then he's to be held accountable. If he does it to save a family member that has long since died, then he's to be held accountable.

It's better to prevent the damage by isolating the mages when their powers manifestate.

But if the Templars are the actual cause of the blood magic, then the Mage is not to be held accountable. A Mage that turns to blood magic because he's about to be butchered like a cow for a crime someone else committed is not at fault. Should he die meekly on his knees just to preserve some sense of innocence that he's not receiving at that moment? Or should he fight back to stay alive?

Simply being a Mage does not mean that they are not allowed to fight back against injustice. 

A person who kills another and claims self defense is still investigated and, possibly, placed on trial. And, unlike the mages, we can disarm those amongst us who kill others in self defense. A mage who chose to become a blood mage, can never stop being so.

And there is, of course, a difference between using something like "Blood Wound" which is not always lethal and raising the Undead or turning into a bleeding Harvester.
That thing could have destroyed the Free Marches. Another example of Orsino's revenge against mundanes, perhaps?

[dragonflight288]

Meredith wasn't opressing the general mundane population, only those who assisted mages in escaping and I wouldn't exactly call that opression. And undermining the power of his enemy as viscountess makes sense by itself, it doesn't necessarely imply a regard for mundanes.
And his words in the Last Straw could be a simple attempt to manipulated Meredith with something that she cares about, not something that he cares about.
His codex entry suggests resentment over the Circle and anti-mundane sentiment.

Meredith had a templar death squad killing non mage civilians in open daylight without due process or trial. And the one we interrupt in a pro-mage playthrough, her only crime was giving her cousin some food and a couch to sleep on.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Meredith had a templar death squad killing non mage civilians in open daylight without due process or trial. And the one we interrupt in a pro-mage playthrough, her only crime was giving her cousin some food and a couch to sleep on.

It's still against the law and she was endangering the entiry city by helping her mage cousin remain at large.
Killing them is being overzealous, I admit, but Meredith was still only reacting to crimes that are recognized as such by all Andrastean nations.
And it's worth mentioning that some templars were activelly oposing the use of the death penalty for these crimes.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 février 2013 - 07:35 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Since Judge and jury are often one and the same in this age and time of Thedas, there is no such thing as a "due process" yet.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
You don't recall correctly.  There has never been any lore or evidence that has been presented that shows there were far more abominations running around before the circles than afterwords.  I know because I have been calling for such actual FACTS and LORE for years from the Devs or from pro-templar supports and no one has ever been able to show anything of the kind.

Indeed basic anthropology shows that mages could not possibly go "abmination" as often or as easily as you (or the chantry) would have us believe.  If so, then no small tribe could ever have a sufficient growth rate to survive let alone become an advanced civilization.

-Polaris

Neither do you. Two problems with you statements:

1. DG did say that the world was a more dangerous place before the Circles - as an answer to the question about the danger of mages and abominations. That you deliberately choose to misenterpret it or ignore it because it's not 100% explicit is your problem.

2. Basic anrophology doesn't show us that. Your assumptions are nto fact. For one, we don't even know when the first mages begun appearing - it could have been well after larger civilizations were formed.
For another, the idea that no tribe could ever grow is also flawed - not only does the huge number of tribes basicly guarnatees that at least some would, but humans have demonstrated exceptionally high birth rates in some instances.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Meredith had a templar death squad killing non mage civilians in open daylight without due process or trial. And the one we interrupt in a pro-mage playthrough, her only crime was giving her cousin some food and a couch to sleep on.

That Mage, one should note, was also half-starved and whipped/beaten.

MisterJB wrote...

His codex entry suggests resentment over the Circle and anti-mundane sentiment.

Uh... no it doesn't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

"You deny us our freedom so that you may sleep better at night, but I say it is a restless and undeserved slumber." direct quote from Orsino. Doesn't appear that he has any lost love for the mundanes.

[TEWR]

And he could just as easily be talking about the scant freedoms the Circle does allow that Meredith has seen fit to deny the Mages increasingly since she became Knight-Commander and completely so by Act 3.

He does not show any contempt towards mundanes. He even begs Hawke to stay back if pro-Templar, because he doesn't want to fight them. He doesn't want to fight anyone by then. And he shows respect towards Elthina and Elthina knows him to be a reasonable man.

The fact that he fights the Qunari of his own volition when he could just as easily have gone "Meh, what do I care about the mundanes?" says he cares about them. The fact that he calls Kirkwall his home, despite not hailing from it originally, shows that he cares about mundanes.

Side note: Orsino taking on the Qunari by himself is all kinds of badass.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2013 - 08:34 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Uhm what do you think would have happened to Orsino had he not fought the Qunari? Do not fool yourself, that he acting purely on altruism on this point...
And it most certainly isn't about Meredith reducing mage freedoms, since the entry is obviously from before Meredith even ursurped power.

[Knight of Dane]

He would probably sit comfortably inside the gallows behind a wall of templars.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Kirkwall would have fallen, and he would wear a rather uncomfortable collar, and likely have lost his tounge before week's end.

[DKJaigen]

Orsino could have organised an uprising and get out of kirkwall while the templars where fighting. Then they could go apostate because the chantry no longer have the phylactories or be absorbed into another circle because no one knows what happend in kirkwall.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And he could just as easily be talking about the scant freedoms the Circle does allow that Meredith has seen fit to deny the Mages increasingly since she became Knight-Commander and completely so by Act 3.

And how does that disprove anti-mundane sentiment?

He does not show any contempt towards mundanes. He even begs Hawke to stay back if pro-Templar, because he doesn't want to fight them.

Yeah, because either Hawke kills him or he kills Hawke in which case mages will have killed Kirkwall's two most beloved citizens in one night and nothing will stop the Kirkwallers from tearing every mage limb from limb.

And he shows respect towards Elthina

Because he wants to turn the city against Meredith and bein rude to Elthina will not earn him popular support.

Elthina knows him to be a reasonable man.

Elthina didn't know about Orsino brefriending at least one blood mage.

The fact that he fights the Qunari of his own volition when he could just as easily have gone "Meh, what do I care about the mundanes?" says he cares about them. The fact that he calls Kirkwall his home, despite not hailing from it originally, shows that he cares about mundanes.

No, it means that the Chantry is much preferable to the Qun.
The Magisters probrably call Minrathous their home too.

Modifié par MisterJB, 04 février 2013 - 01:38 .

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Meredith had a templar death squad killing non mage civilians in open daylight without due process or trial. And the one we interrupt in a pro-mage playthrough, her only crime was giving her cousin some food and a couch to sleep on.

It's still against the law and she was endangering the entiry city by helping her mage cousin remain at large.
Killing them is being overzealous, I admit, but Meredith was still only reacting to crimes that are recognized as such by all Andrastean nations.
And it's worth mentioning that some templars were activelly oposing the use of the death penalty for these crimes.

So offering a cousin a couch to sleep on and some food constitutes death by templar during the day, without ever once going to the magistrate? We know Kirkwall has one, we do a quest for him in Act 1. That matter should've been handled by the city guard, and the law, not the templars. That matter should have had templars ask where the cousin went and leave it at that, not kill non-mages.

If you lived in Kirkwall and saw tempalrs killing non-mages, when there's a city guard and a magistrate, and there's no trial, I can almost guarantee that the common person would most definitely feel oppressed.

Adding onto that, Meredith completely denied allowing the city to run itself. The nobility weren't allowed to choose a new Viscount, she tried to consolidate power by taking over the city guard, and Meredith was acting-viscount for three years. That is not her duty in any way, shape or form. Were you in the nobility, you would feel your rights were being repressed, because Meredith had no legal right to do that.