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[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Since Judge and jury are often one and the same in this age and time of Thedas, there is no such thing as a "due process" yet.

But there is a magistrate. A magistrate's responsibilities are listening to condemned and passing sentence. We know there's a magistrate in charge of the courts because we did a quest for him in Act 1.

There is a judge and jury, and they are the exace same person in the form of the magistrate. So yes, with  magistrate, there is a due process of law that needs to be followed.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
If you lived in Kirkwall and saw tempalrs killing non-mages, when there's a city guard and a magistrate, and there's no trial, I can almost guarantee that the common person would most definitely feel oppressed.

Templars are not killing civillians for the fun of it as Magisters do in Tevinter. They're punishing those who commit magical related crimes. Now, I acknowledge that killing someone just for what that woman did is going way too far but if the average citizen knew why it was done, they would know that they have nothing to fear because most Kirkwallers have no connection to the Circle.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Since Judge and jury are often one and the same in this age and time of Thedas, there is no such thing as a "due process" yet.

But there is a magistrate. A magistrate's responsibilities are listening to condemned and passing sentence. We know there's a magistrate in charge of the courts because we did a quest for him in Act 1.

There is a judge and jury, and they are the exace same person in the form of the magistrate. So yes, with  magistrate, there is a due process of law that needs to be followed.

I agree that a death penalty is too harsh a punishment.
But magical-related crimes are under the jurisdiction of templars.

B.t.w - a tempalrs is judge, jury and executioneer on the field..so due process?

[Knight of Dane]

No, the templars are guardians.

[Reikilea]

Honestly for me siding with templars is racist and xenofobic. But I´m not suprised. Humanity has it in them. We just love to judge and condemn everyone because one person mistake. Or just because they are different.

My family already experinced this - they are dangerous they should be watched and caged. Remember the "labour camps"? That how they called them. It was for protection they said.

And the reason for the fact that blood magic in strong in Kirkwall. That was pretty much explained. Mages were caged like animal. What do you want to do? Get out. How will you if what you are allowed is nothing? Ask for help. Who offers the help? Demons. Because they sense their fear and distress. How to prevent it? Allow mages to be treated like everyone else. Not caged and isolated. And moreover this whole conflict is stupid. Nothing will ever persuade me to support templars. I dont like racism.

And supporting organisation that allowed that crazy woman to be in change for years is madness. Organisation that allowed someone like that to be put in charge. To me supporting Caligula in his late years sound more reasonable than being on Meredith side. Its clear she lost it too. And people just watched.

Aren´t the seekers made to prevent something like this? It seems more like ignoration is their best power.
Like there is this crazy templar usurping political power, preventing the city from having a new viscount.
What should we do?
Dunno. Just watch and wait.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
If you lived in Kirkwall and saw tempalrs killing non-mages, when there's a city guard and a magistrate, and there's no trial, I can almost guarantee that the common person would most definitely feel oppressed.

Templars are not killing civillians for the fun of it as Magisters do in Tevinter. They're punishing those who commit magical related crimes. Now, I acknowledge that killing someone just for what that woman did is going way too far but if the average citizen knew why it was done, they would know that they have nothing to fear because most Kirkwallers have no connection to the Circle.

No society can stand if civilians are killed for pleasure.

Don't get me wrong, I abhor Tevinter and the way it functions, but I'm too caught up on technicalities here to let an argument slide.

We know the magisters kill slaves in blood magic rituals. That's not the same as killing civilians. Fenriel talks about how his master killed someone else in broad daylight using bloodmagic in a duel but that's no different, save the method of killing, than my Warden being challenged to a duel by a knight in Denerim and killing him in broad daylight. The dead is still dead, by way of a legal duel. The only difference was the tool used in combat.

I detest the slavery in Tevinter, as it gives the magisters a sense of entitlement to their 'property' and can use them as they see fit, often in blood magic sacrifices, but that doesn't mean they kill civilians.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Since Judge and jury are often one and the same in this age and time of Thedas, there is no such thing as a "due process" yet.

But there is a magistrate. A magistrate's responsibilities are listening to condemned and passing sentence. We know there's a magistrate in charge of the courts because we did a quest for him in Act 1.

There is a judge and jury, and they are the exace same person in the form of the magistrate. So yes, with  magistrate, there is a due process of law that needs to be followed.

I agree that a death penalty is too harsh a punishment.
But magical-related crimes are under the jurisdiction of templars.

B.t.w - a tempalrs is judge, jury and executioneer on the field..so due process?

When they hunt maleficar and often apostates. Not non-mages. A mundane person does NOT fall under the authority of the templars.

[dragonflight288]

Knight of Dane wrote...

No, the templars are guardians.

Supposed to be, at any rate. If they kept to that, I'd support them in a heartbeat.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm pretty sure that any and all kinds of magical related crimes fall under the juridstiction of the Templars, and that will include the punishment for the crime. We are all agreeing that the punishment in this case doesn't fit the crime, however it is the Templars' "right" (since you people seem intend on using that word) to punish that woman for breaking the laws regarding magic.
It has also been more or less stated that Magisters of Tevinter can and does pretty much do as they please, as long as they do not offend another Magister of higher rank/power, they could kill whoever they wanted in Tevinter, and not get punished.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm pretty sure that any and all kinds of magical related crimes fall under the juridstiction of the Templars, and that will include the punishment for the crime. We are all agreeing that the punishment in this case doesn't fit the crime, however it is the Templars' "right" (since you people seem intend on using that word) to punish that woman for breaking the laws regarding magic.
It has also been more or less stated that Magisters of Tevinter can and does pretty much do as they please, as long as they do not offend another Magister of higher rank/power, they could kill whoever they wanted in Tevinter, and not get punished.

Templars don't have jurisdiction over non-mages, non-templars, or crimes by the same outside of the Chantry.  The proper jurisdiction should have been the Viscount (and his magistrates).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Again, I'm not sure that's how Thedas works. Any and all magic related event, seems to fall under the juridstiction of the Templars.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, I'm not sure that's how Thedas works. Any and all magic related event, seems to fall under the juridstiction of the Templars.

Act 1, that quest for the magistrate, with the insane son who thought he had been possessed by demons even though he hadn't. He even went to the Circle to be examined and they said he wasn't possessed.

The City Guard was handling that case, not the templars, but the Circle was involved as well because he went there.

It's true he wasn't a mage, but it's well established fact that even non-mages are in just as much danger of possession of demons. If your argument holds water, it should've been the templars taking him to the magistrate (only to be let go again to save his career) and not the City Guard.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, I'm not sure that's how Thedas works. Any and all magic related event, seems to fall under the juridstiction of the Templars.

Act 1, that quest for the magistrate, with the insane son who thought he had been possessed by demons even though he hadn't. He even went to the Circle to be examined and they said he wasn't possessed.

The City Guard was handling that case, not the templars, but the Circle was involved as well because he went there.

It's true he wasn't a mage, but it's well established fact that even non-mages are in just as much danger of possession of demons. If your argument holds water, it should've been the templars taking him to the magistrate (only to be let go again to save his career) and not the City Guard.

You know why the Templars weren't handling that case? Because they KNEW already that he wasn't possessed. The madman had already gone to the Circle, where they concluded there wasn't talk of an actual possession, but trather the man just being bat**** insane. That leaves it a non-magical matter, which leaves it outside of Templar juridstiction.

[Chashan]

Reikilea wrote...

Honestly for me siding with templars is racist and xenofobic. But I´m not suprised. Humanity has it in them. We just love to judge and condemn everyone because one person mistake. Or just because they are different.

My family already experinced this - they are dangerous they should be watched and caged. Remember the "labour camps"? That how they called them. It was for protection they said.

And the reason for the fact that blood magic in strong in Kirkwall. That was pretty much explained. Mages were caged like animal. What do you want to do? Get out. How will you if what you are allowed is nothing? Ask for help. Who offers the help? Demons. Because they sense their fear and distress. How to prevent it? Allow mages to be treated like everyone else. Not caged and isolated. And moreover this whole conflict is stupid. Nothing will ever persuade me to support templars. I dont like racism.

And supporting organisation that allowed that crazy woman to be in change for years is madness. Organisation that allowed someone like that to be put in charge. To me supporting Caligula in his late years sound more reasonable than being on Meredith side. Its clear she lost it too. And people just watched.

Aren´t the seekers made to prevent something like this? It seems more like ignoration is their best power.
Like there is this crazy templar usurping political power, preventing the city from having a new viscount.
What should we do?
Dunno. Just watch and wait.

One could argue that most of the accounts on the supposed "insanity" of the man were fabrications by his political enemies rather than actual fact, because he was too uncooperative toward the gentile families of Rome...

Overall agree, though: DA2's writers already associate the approaches of certain elements within the Templar order, at least within the Kirkwall chapter, with extreme real world "solutions" to the problem. Not exactly promoting confidence and sympathy for the cause of mad hatter Meredith and company, that.

[BlueMagitek]

Is that so? Well, I suppose Denerim was done a better service than Orzammar, as it actually felt very large, even among some of the very similar ambushes. Not even including endgame. :/

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, I'm not sure that's how Thedas works. Any and all magic related event, seems to fall under the juridstiction of the Templars.

Act 1, that quest for the magistrate, with the insane son who thought he had been possessed by demons even though he hadn't. He even went to the Circle to be examined and they said he wasn't possessed.

The City Guard was handling that case, not the templars, but the Circle was involved as well because he went there.

It's true he wasn't a mage, but it's well established fact that even non-mages are in just as much danger of possession of demons. If your argument holds water, it should've been the templars taking him to the magistrate (only to be let go again to save his career) and not the City Guard.

You know why the Templars weren't handling that case? Because they KNEW already that he wasn't possessed. The madman had already gone to the Circle, where they concluded there wasn't talk of an actual possession, but trather the man just being bat**** insane. That leaves it a non-magical matter, which leaves it outside of Templar juridstiction.

And let's put that position into the non-mage woman the death squad was attempting to kill without a thought.

This woman was not a blood mage, or even a mage. She was not possessed by a demon, and the templars knew it. As such, her harboring her cousin, offering food and a place to rest, while worthy of being questioned by the tempalrs, is not worth being arrested or killed for. As a non-mage, any crime she may or may not have committed fell under the jurisdiction of the City Guard.

Thank you for helping me prove my point.

[MisterJB]

In many places of the democratic world, harboring a fugitive earns you jail time, in fact.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

In many places of the democratic world, harboring a fugitive earns you jail time, in fact.

NOT the death penalty though and within the correct jurisdiction.  The Templar Death Squads fail at both, not to mention a failure of due process (and yes even Commoners in Kirkwall have a right to due process).

-Polaris

[CrimsonZephyr]

MisterJB wrote...

In many places of the democratic world, harboring a fugitive earns you jail time, in fact.

But you're tried first in a court of law, and you're certainly not murdered out of hand on your doorstep by the police.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

In many places of the democratic world, harboring a fugitive earns you jail time, in fact.

Once again your acting lawfullic stupid. If your harboring kin then you usually get of the hook unless your kin is real psychopath.

[DKJaigen]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, I'm not sure that's how Thedas works. Any and all magic related event, seems to fall under the juridstiction of the Templars.

Act 1, that quest for the magistrate, with the insane son who thought he had been possessed by demons even though he hadn't. He even went to the Circle to be examined and they said he wasn't possessed.

The City Guard was handling that case, not the templars, but the Circle was involved as well because he went there.

It's true he wasn't a mage, but it's well established fact that even non-mages are in just as much danger of possession of demons. If your argument holds water, it should've been the templars taking him to the magistrate (only to be let go again to save his career) and not the City Guard.

You know why the Templars weren't handling that case? Because they KNEW already that he wasn't possessed. The madman had already gone to the Circle, where they concluded there wasn't talk of an actual possession, but trather the man just being bat**** insane. That leaves it a non-magical matter, which leaves it outside of Templar juridstiction.

And let's put that position into the non-mage woman the death squad was attempting to kill without a thought.

This woman was not a blood mage, or even a mage. She was not possessed by a demon, and the templars knew it. As such, her harboring her cousin, offering food and a place to rest, while worthy of being questioned by the tempalrs, is not worth being arrested or killed for. As a non-mage, any crime she may or may not have committed fell under the jurisdiction of the City Guard.

Thank you for helping me prove my point.

Ouch emperor got owned once again. Not the first time he contradicts himself and he will forever remain a source for my amusement.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again, I'm not sure that's how Thedas works. Any and all magic related event, seems to fall under the juridstiction of the Templars.

Act 1, that quest for the magistrate, with the insane son who thought he had been possessed by demons even though he hadn't. He even went to the Circle to be examined and they said he wasn't possessed.

The City Guard was handling that case, not the templars, but the Circle was involved as well because he went there.

It's true he wasn't a mage, but it's well established fact that even non-mages are in just as much danger of possession of demons. If your argument holds water, it should've been the templars taking him to the magistrate (only to be let go again to save his career) and not the City Guard.

You know why the Templars weren't handling that case? Because they KNEW already that he wasn't possessed. The madman had already gone to the Circle, where they concluded there wasn't talk of an actual possession, but trather the man just being bat**** insane. That leaves it a non-magical matter, which leaves it outside of Templar juridstiction.

And let's put that position into the non-mage woman the death squad was attempting to kill without a thought.

This woman was not a blood mage, or even a mage. She was not possessed by a demon, and the templars knew it. As such, her harboring her cousin, offering food and a place to rest, while worthy of being questioned by the tempalrs, is not worth being arrested or killed for. As a non-mage, any crime she may or may not have committed fell under the jurisdiction of the City Guard.

Thank you for helping me prove my point.

Uhm.. You realize she helped hiding a MAGE right? You know that makes into a magic related offense, right? THe difference between these two cases is: One is magic related, the other isnot. One merits the involvement of Temlpars, the other doesnt.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Ouch emperor got owned once again. Not the first time he contradicts himself and he will forever remain a source for my amusement.

Contradiction? You should work on your reading comprehension DKJ.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. You realize she helped hiding a MAGE right? You know that makes into a magic related offense, right? THe difference between these two cases is: One is magic related, the other isnot. One merits the involvement of Temlpars, the other doesnt.

Um, you do realize that the person in question is NOT a mage, right?  It would be like a German national in Germany hid a US Crimnal wanted by the FBI (and Interpol).  That is still a crime because Germany and the US have an agreement that covers this, but I promise you that the German courts and Polizei would have jurisdiction.

Same here.  The Templars have no jurisdiction outside of hunting down apostate mages.  They certainly don't have the jusdiction to act as Judge, Jury, and executioner for non-mages...even in Kirkwall.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

It's never really been stated if Templars deal with non-Mages that were aiding Mages, but... I do think the Templars have authority on at least bringing them in for questioning.

They certainly can't kill them just for giving food and shelter to a Mage, especially if that Mage suffered abuse in the Circle like the woman's relative did.

The pro-Templar quest where you're hunting down Mages and killing them has you at the end killing the remainder of Mages and Ser Mettin wants to kill the non-Mages that were helping them and surrendered, while Ser Agatha doesn't. And she's a moderate.

Now, this quest is wholly different from Meredith's little death squad, as we are told in-game that Meredith's death squad consists of her handpicked zealots tasked with such a "duty". But at the very least, Templars certainly have the authority to detain and question non-Mages. I would think that'd be a basic thing for a police force dedicated to... well... policing magic.

Given how Lily was sent to the Aeonar by Gregoir's command -- which boggles the mind, as it's a prison for Mages -- I'd say it's more likely then not that the Templars can be Judge and Jury.

But not executioner.

Granted, she was a priest so that might by itself render her under Chantry/Templar jurisdiction while a farmer would be a different story.

So meh, we don't have enough to conclusively state that the Templars can be Judge and Jury regarding non-Mages, but we do have enough to say that they would be able to question them.

EDIT: And we must also take into account Kirkwall's political nature where the Templars have controlled what happens in the political spectrum for nigh on two decades, most of that from behind the scenes.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 février 2013 - 11:34 .