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[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. You realize she helped hiding a MAGE right? You know that makes into a magic related offense, right? THe difference between these two cases is: One is magic related, the other isnot. One merits the involvement of Temlpars, the other doesnt.

Um, you do realize that the person in question is NOT a mage, right?  It would be like a German national in Germany hid a US Crimnal wanted by the FBI (and Interpol).  That is still a crime because Germany and the US have an agreement that covers this, but I promise you that the German courts and Polizei would have jurisdiction.

Same here.  The Templars have no jurisdiction outside of hunting down apostate mages.  They certainly don't have the jusdiction to act as Judge, Jury, and executioner for non-mages...even in Kirkwall.

-Polaris

Prove it then.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Uhm.. You realize she helped hiding a MAGE right? You know that makes into a magic related offense, right? THe difference between these two cases is: One is magic related, the other isnot. One merits the involvement of Temlpars, the other doesnt.

Um, you do realize that the person in question is NOT a mage, right?  It would be like a German national in Germany hid a US Crimnal wanted by the FBI (and Interpol).  That is still a crime because Germany and the US have an agreement that covers this, but I promise you that the German courts and Polizei would have jurisdiction.

Same here.  The Templars have no jurisdiction outside of hunting down apostate mages.  They certainly don't have the jusdiction to act as Judge, Jury, and executioner for non-mages...even in Kirkwall.

-Polaris

Prove it then.

It doesn't work that way.  The burden of proof is on you in this case.  Not Guilty until proven so.  That does seem to be the principle in Thedas as well as IRL.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's never really been stated if Templars deal with non-Mages that were aiding Mages, but... I do think the Templars have authority on at least bringing them in for questioning.

They certainly can't kill them just for giving food and shelter to a Mage, especially if that Mage suffered abuse in the Circle like the woman's relative did.

The pro-Templar quest where you're hunting down Mages and killing them has you at the end killing the remainder of Mages and Ser Mettin wants to kill the non-Mages that were helping them and surrendered, while Ser Agatha doesn't. And she's a moderate.

Now, this quest is wholly different from Meredith's little death squad, as we are told in-game that Meredith's death squad consists of her handpicked zealots tasked with such a "duty". But at the very least, Templars certainly have the authority to detain and question non-Mages. I would think that'd be a basic thing for a police force dedicated to... well... policing magic.

Given how Lily was sent to the Aeonar by Gregoir's command -- which boggles the mind, as it's a prison for Mages -- I'd say it's more likely then not that the Templars can be Judge and Jury.

But not executioner.

Granted, she was a priest so that might by itself render her under Chantry/Templar jurisdiction while a farmer would be a different story.

So meh, we don't have enough to conclusively state that the Templars can be Judge and Jury regarding non-Mages, but we do have enough to say that they would be able to question them.

EDIT: And we must also take into account Kirkwall's political nature where the Templars have controlled what happens in the political spectrum for nigh on two decades, most of that from behind the scenes.

I certainly agree that Tempars have the authority to question non-mages about non-magical crimes, and going by to my example of Germany and the US, the FBI (and Interpol) certainly DO have the right to question German suspects of harboring a US Fugative (for example).  But the ultimate jurisdiction of a German national lies with German authorities (and the US would have to ask the German courts to decide otherwise which does occassionally happen...but there is due process here).

In the case of Lily, Lily as an IInitiate of the Chantry falls under the authority of the Templars as much as any mage, expecially since her crime was done within a Circle of Magi.  That makes her a poor counter-example.

As for the Pro-Templar Mission, the moderate Templar points out that it ISN'T the Templar right to execute non-mages and it's against what the Order is supposed to stand for.  I would also point out that this incident takes place on Mt Soundermount where there are no local authorities (other than the Dalish who don't care either way).  Even then, the Templars aren't supposed to try and execute non-mages and that is made very clear (questioning is admittedly another matter) but even after questioning the correct action would be to take them in a prisoners and put them in the hands of the CIty Guard with charges of Aiding and Abetting "Enemies of the State".

-Polaris

[Gayhobbit]

Did and done. The mages get a grand spotlight anyways in the end story after you side with the Templars. When first playing the Dragon Age games I really liked them, but they gradually became more needy and self important to the point of there being a character like Anders whom excessively flips the bird to anyone who's not a mage. Add that with your already over needy/emotionally unstable companions and you want to go get the GATLING.

[MisterJB]

It does get annoying constantly hearing about how the people who don't have to worry about food, healthcare, education, accomodations, bandits, darkspawn, war, etc are being opressed.
And now the world burns because they want more. Sometimes I think the Chantry is far too lenient. I can assure you the qunari don't have to put up with this sh*t.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

It does get annoying constantly hearing about how the people who don't have to worry about food, healthcare, education, accomodations, bandits, darkspawn, war, etc are being opressed.
And now the world burns because they want more. Sometimes I think the Chantry is far too lenient. I can assure you the qunari don't have to put up with this sh*t.

Well, I wouldn't say they don't need to worry about those things. The Circle is only able to sustain itself economically because of the Mages/Tranquil, not the Chantry. The Mages and Tranquil are the ones who earn the coin for the Circle system, as the Tranquil at Ostagar tells you.

So yes, they do need to worry about it. But it gets a bit bad when you've got Templars breathing down your neck. They say the one who holds the coin holds the power, which is true for this world, Thedas, and the next. We see Mages that have connections to rich relatives/friends get special perks in the Circle from the Templars that others do not.

The Mages have to earn their living just as much as anyone else. True, they're protected from the ravages of Darkspawn and bandits, but they also have to contend with abusive Templars that aren't reigned in and Demons.

[MisterJB]

And what does enchanting entail? Spill some lyrium over a blade? Say a few magic words? You can't compare that to breaking your back working on the soil day in, day out and then have to pay a not insignificant portion to your lord or he might just figure there are others who would be more willing to pay it.
Abuse doesn't happen solely inside the Circle. The templars breathe down their necks partially because of the demons which does help keep the mages themselves safe.

edit: Speaking to Anders really makes my blood boil. I can't even call him out on his crap. Magic is NOT the same as a bow or a sword, damn it!

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 février 2013 - 04:19 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

And what does enchanting entail? Spill some lyrium over a blade? Say a few magic words? You can't compare that to breaking your back working on the soil day in, day out and then have to pay a not insignificant portion to your lord or he might just figure there are others who would be more willing to pay it.

Lyrium is, by its very nature, a treacherous and hazardous material to work with that can kill you if handled wrong. The Dwarves enchant their weapons, amulets, and armor with lyrium, but even they are not free from the risks it poses.

So no, it's not a simple task. It's not just "spilling lyrium over a blade" or "saying magic words". It actually requires a great deal of work and effort, not to mention care. 

I'd say it's the harder task compared to toiling out on farmland. A farmer only has to take the periodic break so he doesn't overexert himself and while he has to give away some of his crops, he's not risking death just by working out there. It's not like a little mistake will kill him out in the field. Working out on a farm is something that you can get better at with experience and with better equipment -- for example, Lloyd's father was given a piece of farm equipment from a Dwarven craftsman that served him well. What it was, I can't recall. Might've been a plow.

Abuse doesn't happen solely inside the Circle. The templars breathe down their necks partially because of the demons which does help keep the mages themselves safe.

My point is that you can't say the Mages are free from bandits if, at times, they live alongside bandits by another name and aren't protected from them as much as can be expected. The more abuses slide, the more they'll happen.

As for the Templars breathing down their necks, there's a difference between vigilance and creepy suspicion/paranoia. But more to my point, I was stating that the Lucrosians -- who are the fraternity one might believe is responsible for the Circle's economical state -- might receive more and more suspicion from the Templars/Chantry for their efforts at raising coin for the Circle.

As I said, the one who holds the coin holds the power.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 février 2013 - 04:38 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Lyrium is, by its very nature, a treacherous and hazardous material to work with that can kill you if handled wrong. The Dwarves enchant their weapons, amulets, and armor with lyrium, but even they are not free from the risks it poses.

So no, it's not a simple task. It's not just "spilling lyrium over a blade" or "saying magic words". It actually requires a great deal of work and effort, not to mention care.

I'd say it's the harder task compared to toiling out on farmland. A farmer only has to take the periodic break so he doesn't overexert himself and while he has to give away some of his crops, he's not risking death just by working out there. It's not like a little mistake will kill him out in the field.

I disagree. Being more likely to explode in your face does not make it the harder task. Medieval agriculture demanded an almost unthinkable effort from the peasants. Maker helps them if it rains too little or too much , they won't have anything to eat if their lord is not generous.
Mages don't even deal with lyrium anyway, Tranquil do. Which does bring up the question what the other mages do to contribute.

And peasants normally don't have acess to things that are guaranteed for a mage such as education, for instance.

My point is that you can't say the Mages are free from bandits if, at times, they live alongside bandits by another name and aren't protected from them as much as can be expected. The more abuses slide, the more they'll happen.

I live in a large city. The man living next door could be a serial killer and I would know nothing about it.
It's true that abuses do happen but outside, if a nobles wants a peasant, he'll have her and there is little to nothing their family can do. It's a matter of luck, you can end up in a tower under Gregoir or under Meredith just like you can be born in the Cousland's lands or the Vaughan's.

At least in the Circle, the mages don't have to deal with groups like Evets Marauders and darkspawn.

As for the Templars breathing down their necks, there's a difference between vigilance and creepy suspicion/paranoia.

There is but I doubt we would agree where the line should be drawn.

But more to my point, I was stating that the Lucrosians -- who are the fraternity one might believe is responsible for the Circle's economical state -- might receive more and more suspicion from the Templars/Chantry for their efforts at raising coin for the Circle.

As I said, the one who holds the coin holds the power.

Not really, the Libertarians are always the more distrusted ones and for good reason, they are revolutionaries.
Lucrosians are predictable, they're just like the thousands of merchants in Thedas, just with magic. They're a known quantity.
In fact, being a lucrosian is probrably your best option inside the Circle. Were all mages focused on hoarding money, one day they might be able to buy the withdrawal of the templars if that is what they want.

[jillabender]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lyrium is, by its very nature, a treacherous and hazardous material to work with that can kill you if handled wrong. The Dwarves enchant their weapons, amulets, and armor with lyrium, but even they are not free from the risks it poses.

So no, it's not a simple task. It's not just "spilling lyrium over a blade" or "saying magic words". It actually requires a great deal of work and effort, not to mention care.

I'd say it's the harder task compared to toiling out on farmland. A farmer only has to take the periodic break so he doesn't overexert himself and while he has to give away some of his crops, he's not risking death just by working out there. It's not like a little mistake will kill him out in the field. Working out on a farm is something that you can get better at with experience and with better equipment -- for example, Lloyd's father was given a piece of farm equipment from a Dwarven craftsman that served him well. What it was, I can't recall. Might've been a plow.

Leaving aside the Mage/Templar debate for the moment, I just feel the need to point out that in our world, farming is considered one of the most dangerous occupations today. The dangers of farming in pre-industrial times would have been different, since they obviously didn't have heavy machinery, but there would still have been risks.

Among other things, working with animals can be very dangerous - my dad, who grew up on a farm, was once attacked by a huge sow who became vicious when her piglets were taken away, and only by shielding himself with his arm was he able to keep her from biting his face!
With that tangent concluded, I now return you to your regularly scheduled Mage/Templar debate!

Modifié par jillabender, 08 février 2013 - 05:26 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

I disagree. Being more likely to explode in your face does not make it the harder task.

I think that's a flawed argument. Death is permanent. A bad crop is temporary.

Medieval agriculture demanded an almost unthinkable effort from the peasants. Maker helps them if it rains too little or too much , they won't have anything to eat if their lord is not generous.

Mages could help with agriculture. Since they can create ice -- which requires water -- then they could create water for a drought. Or other things. And Dwarves already have been proven to be able to contribute to things that improve the gathering of crops, as Lloyd tells a Dwarven Warden.

Mages don't even deal with lyrium anyway, Tranquil do. Which does bring up the question what the other mages do to contribute.

The Mages do deal with lyrium. As we see from Solivitus, he creates an enchanted amulet using a High Dragon's fire gland and, because it's enchanted, lyrium. He was the one to make it, and he is certainly not Tranquil.

The Mages cannot touch lyrium directly. That does not mean they cannot work with it.

And peasants normally don't have acess to things that are guaranteed for a mage such as education, for instance.

I don't even know if literacy is a cause for concern in DA. We've seen commoners able to pose as orphaned children and write convincing enough letters.

This codex implies that the recipient, the Mage's sister, is a commoner as well. That she'd be able to read it speaks to her own literacy.

Then you have the Chanter's Board, where commoners and nobles alike can post requests for people.

I live in a large city. The man living next door could be a serial killer and I would know nothing about it.
It's true that abuses do happen but outside, if a nobles wants a peasant, he'll have her and there is little to nothing their family can do. It's a matter of luck, you can end up in a tower under Gregoir or under Meredith just like you can be born in the Cousland's lands or the Vaughan's.

At least in the Circle, the mages don't have to deal with groups like Evets Marauders and darkspawn.

A point that I do not deny and indeed do expect to be brought up in DA3, as it's a valid counterpoint. That doesn't mean, however, that it doesn't have its own counterpoints.

Yes, living outside in the world does come with its own risks. But not all of these risks are unfamiliar to the Mages. If a Templar wants a Mage as his sex slave, he'll have him/her and there is little to nothing he/she, their friends, or anyone can do.

Especially if they're threatened into submission.

However, a noble would have to be a bloody fool to think trying to rape a Mage would be a good idea. You'd have to wonder what the hell they're thinking if they believe the person who can cast fireballs won't try to defend themselves.

Life is by its very nature a gamble. 

There is but I doubt we would agree where the line should be drawn.

Gregoir's type of Templar watching is, in general, my standard. I take issue with how he responded to the Darkspawn who had dozens to hundreds of their own Mages -- which necessitates trying to balance out the problem -- but otherwise, he's what I hope the Templars emulate. Could be better, but that's what it should be at the very least.

Not really, the Libertarians are always the more distrusted ones and for good reason, they are revolutionaries.

Not all of whom are violent, one shold note. The Libertarians propose peaceful methods of separation. The Resolutionists resort to violent methods. 

While the Resolutionists are an offshoot of the Libertarians -- and thus hold a similar mindset -- the Libertarians tend to propose peaceful methods of achieving their goals. Even if some secretly argue for a total separation. 

Lucrosians are predictable, they're just like the thousands of merchants in Thedas, just with magic. They're a known quantity.

In fact, being a lucrosian is probrably your best option inside the Circle. Were all mages focused on hoarding money, one day they might be able to buy the withdrawal of the templars if that is what they want.

That's precisely my point. The more money they have, the more authority they can exert. And that would not bode well. The Chantry would then begin to take issue with the Lucrosians. The Chantry would absolutely despise it if the Lucrosians began to work out a method to remove the Templars from the Circles.

Those who would see them as simple merchants would be deluding themselves.

They are, in fact, not predictable. They can be -- and probably are -- the Littlefingers of Thedas.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 février 2013 - 05:26 .

[TEWR]

jillabender wrote...

Leaving aside the Mage/Templar debate for the moment, I just feel the need to point out that in our world, farming is considered one of the most dangerous occupations today. The dangers of farming in pre-industrial times would have been different, since they obviously didn't have heavy machinery, but there would still have been risks.

Among other things, working with animals can be very dangerous - my dad, who grew up on a farm, was once attacked by a huge sow who became vicious when her piglets were taken away, and only by shielding himself with his arm was he able to keep it from biting his face!
With that tangent concluded, I now return you to your regularly scheduled Mage/Templar debate!

Oh I'm not trying to say it's going to be a walk in the park, don't get me wrong. Only that comparitively, I think working with a mineral Made of Explodium is going to be the more dangerous task then working on a farm. How often would a huge sow charge at a farmer? That doesn't seem like a regular occurrence.

But then again, I've never been a farmer. My grandparents were and I've visited farms in the past, but I can't say I'm a farmer myself. Even if I was, as you said farming today is different from farming in the past.

[jillabender]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jillabender wrote...

Leaving aside the Mage/Templar debate for the moment, I just feel the need to point out that in our world, farming is considered one of the most dangerous occupations today. The dangers of farming in pre-industrial times would have been different, since they obviously didn't have heavy machinery, but there would still have been risks.

Among other things, working with animals can be very dangerous - my dad, who grew up on a farm, was once attacked by a huge sow who became vicious when her piglets were taken away, and only by shielding himself with his arm was he able to keep it from biting his face!
With that tangent concluded, I now return you to your regularly scheduled Mage/Templar debate!

Oh I'm not trying to say it's going to be a walk in the park, don't get me wrong. Only that comparitively, I think working with a mineral Made of Explodium is going to be the more dangerous task then working on a farm. How often would a huge sow charge at a farmer? That doesn't seem like a regular occurrence.

But then again, I've never been a farmer. My grandparents were and I've visited farms in the past, but I can't say I'm a farmer myself. Even if I was, as you said farming today is different from farming in the past.

Haha, well, I can't really deny that working with lyrium might be the more dangerous task, comparatively. To answer your question, though, my dad tells me that it's actually quite common for sows to become aggressive when their piglets are taken away, and they can be very dangerous.

Farm machinery, of course, is even more dangerous - both my dad and my grandfather had near-death experiences while operating farm equipment. Of course, that's not especially relevant when it comes to speculating about farming in the Dragon Age setting.

Anyway, hope I haven't derailed the thread too much - I just find the pig story an interesting and bizarre illustration of how the dangers of farming aren't always what one would expect!

Modifié par jillabender, 08 février 2013 - 05:43 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I think that's a flawed argument. Death is permanent. A bad crop is temporary.

A bad crop could very well lead to death in medieval times.
But that's not the point. The point is that "hardship" differs from "danger. It's difficult to extract sustenaince from the soil without our modern machinery, while it is not difficult.to place lyrium on a blade or anything other instrument. It requires caution but that's different.

Mages could help with agriculture. Since they can create ice -- which requires water -- then they could create water for a drought. Or other things. And Dwarves already have been proven to be able to contribute to things that improve the gathering of crops, as Lloyd tells a Dwarven Warden.

I'd rather mundanes just developed their own technology.

The Mages do deal with lyrium. As we see from Solivitus, he creates an enchanted amulet using a High Dragon's fire gland and, because it's enchanted, lyrium. He was the one to make it, and he is certainly not Tranquil.

The Mages cannot touch lyrium directly. That does not mean they cannot work with it.

It does, the Tranquil at Ostagar makes it clear than only Tranquil can enchant items.
Of course, we also see Wade crafting Vigilance which is infused with a Flame Rune and he is not a mage. Solivitius probrably did something similar.

I don't even know if literacy is a cause for concern in DA. We've seen commoners able to pose as orphaned children and write convincing enough letters.

This codex implies that the recipient, the Mage's sister, is a commoner as well. That she'd be able to read it speaks to her own literacy.

Then you have the Chanter's Board, where commoners and nobles alike can post requests for people.

It should be considering only now Anora is pushing for an university to be opened in Ferelden. Being able to read is not all education that can be offered and that mages have acess to, of course.

A point that I do not deny and indeed do expect to be brought up in DA3, as it's a valid counterpoint. That doesn't mean, however, that it doesn't have its own counterpoints.

Yes, living outside in the world does come with its own risks. But not all of these risks are unfamiliar to the Mages. If a Templar wants a Mage as his sex slave, he'll have him/her and there is little to nothing he/she, their friends, or anyone can do.

Especially if they're threatened into submission.

However, a noble would have to be a bloody fool to think trying to rape a Mage would be a good idea. You'd have to wonder what the hell they're thinking if they believe the person who can cast fireballs won't try to defend themselves.

You just made my counterpoint. Mages are not defenseless children, even in Kirkwall Alrik and Karras did not publicize their attacks and they had many factors that strengthened their autorithies and freedoms.

Of course, the opposite is also true. Nobles in both Ferelden and Orlais also do not make public their own abuses. Even Vaughan took the care to conceal his rapes and murders until the absence of three extremely important autorithy figures in Denerim bolstened him.

Life is by its very nature a gamble. 

Unfortunately, mages are born with a rigged hand.

Gregoir's type of Templar watching is, in general, my standard. I take issue with how he responded to the Darkspawn who had dozens to hundreds of their own Mages -- which necessitates trying to balance out the problem -- but otherwise, he's what I hope the Templars emulate. Could be better, but that's what it should be at the very least.

And even that incites rebellion. What more do the mages want?

Not all of whom are violent, one shold note. The Libertarians propose peaceful methods of separation. The Resolutionists resort to violent methods. 

While the Resolutionists are an offshoot of the Libertarians -- and thus hold a similar mindset -- the Libertarians tend to propose peaceful methods of achieving their goals. Even if some secretly argue for a total separation. 

Which, clearly, justifies the mistrust from the Chantry. Maybe not all Libertarians are violent but almost all violent mages appear to come from the Libertarians.

That's precisely my point. The more money they have, the more authority they can exert. And that would not bode well. The Chantry would then begin to take issue with the Lucrosians. The Chantry would absolutely despise it if the Lucrosians began to work out a method to remove the Templars from the Circles.

I believe you understimate human greed. And by that I mean that if the right money falls into the right pockets, the reaction from the chantry might be less what is expected.
Of course, I didn't mean to imply Lucrosians aren't dangerous. Their mentality is closer to that of the Tevinter Magisters who took power from the Templars than anything else, really.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

A bad crop could very well lead to death in medieval times.

Of course. But instant death compared to a possible slow death is different.

But that's not the point. The point is that "hardship" differs from "danger. It's difficult to extract sustenaince from the soil without our modern machinery, while it is not difficult.to place lyrium on a blade or anything other instrument. It requires caution but that's different.

No, it is difficult. As the Tranquil in Ostagar tells us, enchanting items is a very difficult and time-consuming process. If it was so easy, then Sandal wouldn't have been referred to as a savant. 

I'd rather mundanes just developed their own technology.

Not going to happen, unfortunately. I'd like it myself, but they don't really seem to like that type of thought.

Though there's nothing barring the joint function of magic and technology.

It does, the Tranquil at Ostagar makes it clear than only Tranquil can enchant items.
Of course, we also see Wade crafting Vigilance which is infused with a Flame Rune and he is not a mage. Solivitius probrably did something similar.

Indeed, since Wade was capable of using a lyrium rune and Solivitus, a Mage, was also capable of creating an enchanted item we know that Mages can use lyrium in creating enchanted goods.

They cannot touch it in its raw form however, as that is dangerously fatal.

It should be considering only now Anora is pushing for an university to be opened in Ferelden. Being able to read is not all education that can be offered and that mages have acess to, of course.

As a note, a university also exists in Orlais that teaches some liberal things the Chantry is not too keen towards.

But anyway, literacy isn't an issue. The other things a university could teach, well, that's up in the air.

You just made my counterpoint. Mages are not defenseless children, even in Kirkwall Alrik and Karras did not publicize their attacks and they had many factors that strengthened their autorithies and freedoms.

Of course, the opposite is also true. Nobles in both Ferelden and Orlais also do not make public their own abuses. Even Vaughan took the care to conceal his rapes and murders until the absence of three extremely important autorithy figures in Denerim bolstened him.

The problem is that when a Mage defends himself in the Circle, all anyone tends to see is a Mage that killed a Templar. Then said Mage is punished. **** the reasons why he shoved an icicle up the douchebag's ass, he needs to be made Tranquil because he's a danger.

Alrik and Karras had the system on their side. No checks, no balances, no oversight. Karras and Alrik were both extremists promoted by Meredith to influential ranks and thus had command over other Templars. Karras threatened Mages with Tranquility if they talked about his late night visits while Alrik illegally made Mages Tranquil and didn't get so much as a suspension without pay from Meredith. And because of all the Mages popping up as Tranquil with no records signed by the FE and KC, Meredith and Orsino couldn't have failed to have noticed it.

And Orsino has proven time and again to speak up against the injustices done to the Mages in Kirkwall. 

Which, as I've stated before, points to Meredith allowing these secret Tranquilizations to go on without putting on an official stance. 

Unfortunately, mages are born with a rigged hand.

True enough.

And even that incites rebellion. What more do the mages want?

To be fair, not all of the Templars in Ferelden's Circle made the best case for it. I said I support Gregoir's idea in general, but even so there were Templars that talked of enjoying killing Mages during their Harrowings.

That leads to a particularly strained relationship.

Then you've got Mages who just up and vanish, but were not turning to apostates. They just vanish.

Also leads to a strained relationship.

They had reason to distrust the Templars and feel that they were right, and the original intention was just to peacefully demand the Templars withdraw. Or so it was on paper. Given Uldred's manipulative and weaselly ways, where he'd sacrifice Mages he'd led to blood magic to elevate his own status and hide his own knowledge of blood magic, I think a conflict was inevitable.

The problem in the rebellion was more Uldred, who trained and led a group of blood mages. Perhaps if a Libertarian that wasn't so bastard-like had been the one doing the proposing, things wouldn't have gotten so out of hand. Uldred's little-loved in the Circle by most of the Mages.

All that said, Gregoir's general method is what I endorse. I'm sure he's open to improvement, and certainly were I the First Enchanter I'd actually attempt to better the environment between Mage and Templar by working with him. I find Irving to be too much of a twit. He's cunning at times, but also a twit more often then not.

Abuse of power is inevitable on both sides, but how Gregoir believes the Circle should operate is what I (generally) support. I support how he treats the Mages as people, tries to reign in his own Templars who fall out of line, and his dedication to working with the First Enchanter. But it's not perfect -- as nothing ever is -- and is a long ways off from being easily swallowed by the Mages.

It's why I hope that, if Divine Justinia V seeks safe haven in Ferelden's borders, Gregoir's men and Cullen's men will be the first to go to her side. I also hope the Mages will be smart enough to offer their own support to Justinia -- meaning protection -- in exchange for more freedoms. 

But in such a way that conveys that they're not capitulating, but are the ones with the power. So a negotiation that leads to them claiming victory and not defeat.

I believe you understimate human greed. And by that I mean that if the right money falls into the right pockets, the reaction from the chantry might be less what is expected.

I do not think the Lucrosians would be able to grease all those palms. And I believe you underestimate human greed. A truly greedy person would sell a promise to the Mages, only to hold true to his job as a Templar and continue to receive a steady -- and certain -- stream of money and lyrium and thwart the Lucrosians' efforts.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 février 2013 - 07:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

MisterJB wrote...

It does get annoying constantly hearing about how the people who don't have to worry about food, healthcare, education, accomodations, bandits, darkspawn, war, etc are being opressed.

While I understand the point you're making, George Washington said much the same thing about his slaves - having provided for many of the things you list - and legitimately didn' t ever quite get why they'd want to run away.   

Many of the participants in that particular revolution were aware of, and spoke on, the hypocrisy of the position given chattel slavery that existed nearly everywhere in the colonies at the time, they defined slavery as, "Your fate being entirely in the hands of others."  By this definition, they felt they were in real danger of being "enslaved" by the English Parliament, and said as much on a regular basis.

So the mages in Dragon Age aren't enslaved in the sense we imagine when we hear that term today, or in anything close to the same manner.  That said, I think they're entitled to the same broad definition of slavery the Sons of Liberty - and their sympathizers - used in reference to Parliament asserting their supremacy over colonial law and institutions.  It's certainly oppression.

That said, to answer the thread topic question, I'd say yes.  It depends on your character's motivations and perspective.  My character was at heart a peacekeeper, and tried throughout the game to stop what happened in Act 3 from happening.  He failed.  But he felt that the mages could not win such a conflict, and that the outcome of a widespread mage revolution would result in many, many, many deaths.  In siding with the Templars, he hoped to contain the rebellion before it could spread.  He was not happy about his decision, and it wasn't something he enjoyed doing.  It probably keeps him up at night.  In short, he disagreed with Anders on the principle that death was preferable to the status quo, and didn't think Anders had the right to make that decision for everyone.  The key question was, then, "Can the mages win?"  If your character's answer is, "No" then they can reasonably view putting down the Kirkwall revolt as a kind of triage.  

He was wrong, and the rebellion was not contained, but there was no way to know that at the time.  Characters, when roleplayed honestly, do not have to end up as having been correct with hindsight, for the decision they've made to be reasonably justified at the time.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 février 2013 - 12:25 .

[MisterJB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's certainly oppression.

Is it so opressive? I understand your point and you are right in that these same arguments have been used by others in the past in revolutions that are generally seen as positive nowadays.
Of course, our forefathers never actually had to deal with magic. Citizens of democratic societies sill have restrictions placed upon their freedoms so that society might exist. These restrictions apply to all regardless of whether he have commited a crime or not. They exist not because we, individually at least, have given the sense that we are dangerous but because there is always the possibiltiy that we might be dangerous. Logically, those of us; mages; born with an ability that sets such a discrepancy between themselves and the rest of society in terms of how much damage they can cause in completely normal situations such as the loss of a loved one; Connor, Quentin; should have even greater restrictions placed upon their freedoms.
Realistically, the mages can't truly ask for equal rights when the threat they pose is so much greater than that of the common citizen.

[Darth Krytie]

MisterJB wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
It's certainly oppression.

Is it so opressive? I understand your point and you are right in that these same arguments have been used by others in the past in revolutions that are generally seen as positive nowadays.
Of course, our forefathers never actually had to deal with magic. Citizens of democratic societies sill have restrictions placed upon their freedoms so that society might exist. These restrictions apply to all regardless of whether he have commited a crime or not. They exist not because we, individually at least, have given the sense that we are dangerous but because there is always the possibiltiy that we might be dangerous. Logically, those of us; mages; born with an ability that sets such a discrepancy between themselves and the rest of society in terms of how much damage they can cause in completely normal situations such as the loss of a loved one; Connor, Quentin; should have even greater restrictions placed upon their freedoms.
Realistically, the mages can't truly ask for equal rights when the threat they pose is so much greater than that of the common citizen.

To me, that way of thinking is silly. Soldiers or other people who are trained killers pose a greater risk than that of a common citizen in damage they can cause still aren't locked up preventively.

And, yes, there are restrictions placed on society as a whole, to ensure society surivies and thrives, but there are no laws locking up children because genetically they're predisposed to violence or whatever.

Every single person has the potential to cause massive damage. With mages, it's only their means to do as much that changes.

[upsettingshorts]

On the broadest point, you're preaching to the choir. In a perfect world, we could examine the issue of mages in Thedas as something closer to gun control than as a human rights issue.

However, while the Templars and Circle Tower system might make de jure rational sense, the de facto reality is that they encourage and perpetuate abuse.

Short of practical reform which no-one of significance seems terribly interested in, rebellions are inevitable.

[MisterJB]

I think that this preview of "Until we Sleep" illustrates a good point that is frequently brought up. The answer to magical abuse is not simply a familiar ambient at home.

[kalasaurus]

krul2k wrote...

you know apart from a couple of examples in da2 if anything id a said it was harder to actually pick to side with the mages, nigh everytime u try to help a mage they go blood magic on yer ass, even if you side with the mages at the end they still go blood magic on yer ass an ppl wonder why meredith says an is the way she is, damn id a took less time to come to the right of annulment descision as she took an done it, the tiping balance for meredith was the sword up till then in my opinion she showed alorra constraint.

that aside act 3 is just stupid in all its glory so i pretend it not there

Yes, so much this...
-Hawke's mom's killed by blood magic in a really messed up way.
-Then there's that Grace ***** whose life you save.  Oh, the Champion Hawke's a mage who's stood up for her fellow mages for 3 years, time to kidnap her GREY WARDEN brother... and then use some blood magic to try to kill Hawke along with the helpful Templar who risked his own life for us.  This makes sense.
-Fenris was enslaved by a mage, and this is common in Tevinter.
-Merrill's blood magic and obsession with the Eluvian can destroy her clan
-Anders' deception (possibly) through the manipulation of love/friendship to help with his terrorist plans.
-Hawke still sides with the mages- Orsino becomes a blood mage >.<

These examples really hit Hawke personally.  My mage wanted a compromise, but that wasn't happening (Anders...).  I still side with the mages for the sake of avoiding anullment.

Modifié par GlassElephant, 08 février 2013 - 04:28 .

[MisterJB]

Darth Krytie wrote...
To me, that way of thinking is silly. Soldiers or other people who are trained killers pose a greater risk than that of a common citizen in damage they can cause still aren't locked up preventively.

And, yes, there are restrictions placed on society as a whole, to ensure society surivies and thrives, but there are no laws locking up children because genetically they're predisposed to violence or whatever.

Every single person has the potential to cause massive damage. With mages, it's only their means to do as much that changes.

Soldiers and pollice officers all undergo rigorous screening processes before even being trained in anything exactly to assuage of how much of a potential threat they might pose. They are not chosen randomly at birth to become soldiers.

Not every person has the potential to cause massive damage. Some like Loghain or Meredith do but only because of factors such as their leadership positions, hero status and other external factors that turned people towards them. People like them are rare but nearly every mage has the potential to cause massive damage.

[Darth Krytie]

MisterJB wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...
To me, that way of thinking is silly. Soldiers or other people who are trained killers pose a greater risk than that of a common citizen in damage they can cause still aren't locked up preventively.

And, yes, there are restrictions placed on society as a whole, to ensure society surivies and thrives, but there are no laws locking up children because genetically they're predisposed to violence or whatever.

Every single person has the potential to cause massive damage. With mages, it's only their means to do as much that changes.

Soldiers and pollice officers all undergo rigorous screening processes before even being trained in anything exactly to assuage of how much of a potential threat they might pose. They are not chosen randomly at birth to become soldiers.

Not every person has the potential to cause massive damage. Some like Loghain or Meredith do but only because of factors such as their leadership positions, hero status and other external factors that turned people towards them. People like them are rare but nearly every mage has the potential to cause massive damage.

There is more potential risk with mages, true, but it doesn't make the Circle any less oppressive. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any sort of laws in place to deal with risk, but to condem people to a life of a gilded prision simply due to the accident of birth isn't good either. You could argue that the more oppressed a mage is, the more likely they are to seek out what makes them potentially dangerous in the first place.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
No, it is difficult. As the Tranquil in Ostagar tells us, enchanting items is a very difficult and time-consuming process. If it was so easy, then Sandal wouldn't have been referred to as a savant. [/quote]
As hard as extracting your sustenance from the land. I doubt it.

[quote]
Not going to happen, unfortunately. I'd like it myself, but they don't really seem to like that type of thought.

Though there's nothing barring the joint function of magic and technology.[/quote]
Apart from cultural difference, humans is Thedas are phsycologically identical to us. We've developed technology, they could too if magic stopped working as a crutch.
Developing technology would also serve to bridge the gap between mundanes and mages.


[quote]
Indeed, since Wade was capable of using a lyrium rune and Solivitus, a Mage, was also capable of creating an enchanted item we know that Mages can use lyrium in creating enchanted goods.

They cannot touch it in its raw form however, as that is dangerously fatal.[/quote]
If all they use are the runes, then the danger of working with raw lyrium is gone.

[quote]
As a note, a university also exists in Orlais that teaches some liberal things the Chantry is not too keen towards.
[/quote]
We know there is some issues between the Chantry and the University but we don't know if it has bases in liberalism.

[quote]
The problem is that when a Mage defends himself in the Circle, all anyone tends to see is a Mage that killed a Templar. Then said Mage is punished. **** the reasons why he shoved an icicle up the douchebag's ass, he needs to be made Tranquil because he's a danger.

Alrik and Karras had the system on their side. No checks, no balances, no oversight. Karras and Alrik were both extremists promoted by Meredith to influential ranks and thus had command over other Templars. Karras threatened Mages with Tranquility if they talked about his late night visits while Alrik illegally made Mages Tranquil and didn't get so much as a suspension without pay from Meredith. And because of all the Mages popping up as Tranquil with no records signed by the FE and KC, Meredith and Orsino couldn't have failed to have noticed it.[/quote]
And you think that if Soris had murdered Vaughan; in six out of seven canons, anyway; the law would have bothered to check why he did that? A peasant murders a noble and they just lynch him and his entire family.
Things are hardly equal on the outside with the system clearly favoring some over others.

[quote]
To be fair, not all of the Templars in Ferelden's Circle made the best case for it. I said I support Gregoir's idea in general, but even so there were Templars that talked of enjoying killing Mages during their Harrowings.[/quote]
So long as they restrained that joyfullness to Harrowings and the like.
We can keep mages and templars from killing each other but we can't get them to like each other.

[quote]
Then you've got Mages who just up and vanish, but were not turning to apostates. They just vanish.[/quote]
That happens in every Circle. Mages are called for their Harrowing, die and are buried and no one bothers to tell the others. It's a common practice, not restricted to Ferelden.

[quote]They had reason to distrust the Templars and feel that they were right, and the original intention was just to peacefully demand the Templars withdraw.[/quote]
Just as templars have reason to distrust the mages but if they are not being abused; i can't recall a single case in Ferelden so long as the mages wasn't activelly breaking the rules of the Chantry; I don't see their reasons for this "revolution". Certainly not like in Kirkwall where I could see why both mages and templars were rebelling.

Even all that blood mage who surrenders can offer as an excuse is how the templars are "always watching" which is their job and nothing more.

[quote]I think a conflict was inevitable.[/quote]
Well, of course it was and not because of Uldred. Demanding the templars to withdraw peacefully would ahve worked just as well as voting for a separation.

[quote]The problem in the rebellion[/quote]
The problem in the rebellion was the rebellion.
 
quote]

I do not think the Lucrosians would be able to grease all those palms. And I believe you underestimate human greed. A truly greedy person would sell a promise to the Mages, only to hold true to his job as a Templar and continue to receive a steady -- and certain -- stream of money and lyrium and thwart the Lucrosians' efforts.
[/quote]
That would only work so long before the lucrosians wised up. Besides if they can beat the Chantry coin for coin they can pretty much own the templars like the Magisters do.

[MisterJB]

On the topic of reading, page 128 of Asunder extablishes that few outside of the nobility, priesthood and magi can afford an education, even in Orlais, the peak of the civilized world.
Peasants can read dwarven runes but that's the extent it which is a reality few mages seem aware of.

That being inside the tower has actually given them acess to privileges few have.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 février 2013 - 09:54 .