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[Nole]

Because Templars are right.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

On the topic of reading, page 128 of Asunder extablishes that few outside of the nobility, priesthood and magi can afford an education, even in Orlais, the peak of the civilized world.
Peasants can read dwarven runes but that's the extent it which is a reality few mages seem aware of.

That being inside the tower has actually given them acess to privileges few have.

If you think that being a mage is so great, you should volunteer.  The fact that TEMPLARS shield/hide their own mage children from being made part of the circle should tell any fair minded individual everything you need to know about how oppressive and inhuman the circle system is (and yes it does under UN code qualify as genocide).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

If I was a peasant in Thedas, I probrably would. In fact, I imagine City Elves would line up in droves if they could. You can't genuinely say that the mages don't live better than millions of people across our own world right now.

Templar, singular. Thrask served in Kirkwall and he was always an idiot, enough said.
And I don't give a fig what the UN code says. We never had to deal with actual magic and demons.

Modifié par MisterJB, 09 février 2013 - 12:23 .

[MisterJB]

Darth Krytie wrote...
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any sort of laws in place to deal with risk, but to condem people to a life of a gilded prision simply due to the accident of birth isn't good either.

Were there no abuse, I don't see what's so wrong with it.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...
I'm not saying there shouldn't be any sort of laws in place to deal with risk, but to condem people to a life of a gilded prision simply due to the accident of birth isn't good either.

Were there no abuse, I don't see what's so wrong with it.

Whenever you give one group of people nearly total control over another with little or no oversight, there will always be abuses.  The psychology of  human beings demands it.  This is why you NEVER treat human beings as something other than human beings...which is a moral lesson some need to be reminded of.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Whenever you give one group of people nearly total control over another with little or no oversight, there will always be abuses.  The psychology of  human beings demands it.

We agree on that.

This is why you NEVER treat human beings as something other than human beings...which is a moral lesson some need to be reminded of.

The Chantry and Templars treat mages as human beings. Just human beings who are ridiculously dangerous.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

If I was a peasant in Thedas, I probrably would. In fact, I imagine City Elves would line up in droves if they could. You can't genuinely say that the mages don't live better than millions of people across our own world right now.

.

There are two things one should make note of.

1) In theory, we're seeing things that might make one believe the Circle is one of the better places in the world. But this is probably colored by our "Outside looking in" outlook. Even as a Magi Warden, we don't get to see much of the place. As Hawke, we hear and witness more about the abuses that occur within Kirkwall's Circle and Alain implies Starkhaven's was only marginally better.

So we can't definitively state the Circles are better off. From the outsider's perspective, one might be inclined to think such a thing. But if we were actually living there? I don't know if we'd enjoy it as much. Which brings me to my second point.

2) Regardless of whether or not a Mage would have a harder life outside, the issue ultimately boils down to the concept of people making choices for other people and controlling their life. Everyone will take issue with that, if they're put in that situation. I'd wager that people as a society would value a hard life they chose over an easy life that someone forced upon them because of an accident of birth -- couple that with the reality that the Towers might not be such an easy life and... well....

[BlueMagitek]

Most people in DA don't choose their life. An average City Elf or Peasant is never going to be anything more.

The only exception comes from either a Grey Warden or a military ally. And that occurs for Mages as well, so they have the same (if not better, being trained more than your average peasant with more flashy skills) chance as everyone else for controlling their life when the option presents itself.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
1) In theory, we're seeing things that might make one believe the Circle is one of the better places in the world. But this is probably colored by our "Outside looking in" outlook. Even as a Magi Warden, we don't get to see much of the place. As Hawke, we hear and witness more about the abuses that occur within Kirkwall's Circle and Alain implies Starkhaven's was only marginally better.

So we can't definitively state the Circles are better off. From the outsider's perspective, one might be inclined to think such a thing. But if we were actually living there? I don't know if we'd enjoy it as much. Which brings me to my second point.

While it is true that the day to day runnings of the Circle are not something the games elaborate much on, we do hear about abuses should they occur because they are important for the dilleman the games present.
And it's also undeniably true that mages have acess to privileges that the average Thedosian peasant lacks such as an education, luxurious quarters and walls keeping threats such as the darkspawn away. These should be taking into account if we wish to debate the pros and cons of the Circle system.
Even if Circles like Kirkwall, you can find mages content with their situation. Bethany would probrably think Ferelden was like being by the Maker's side.

BTW, about Starkhaven the game may paint a gruesome picture but I'd hesitate before calling it "only marginally better" than Kirkwall. Alain says that Karras beats him and nobody says a thing which suggests either unprovoked viollence wasn't common in Starkhaven or that someone cared about it.

2) Regardless of whether or not a Mage would have a harder life outside, the issue ultimately boils down to the concept of people making choices for other people and controlling their life. Everyone will take issue with that, if they're put in that situation. I'd wager that people as a society would value a hard life they chose over an easy life that someone forced upon them because of an accident of birth -- couple that with the reality that the Towers might not be such an easy life and... well....

People are used to others making choices for them, it's why we have governments in the first place. The mages would still have to obey some sorth of authority should they win; no one is free of that.
And hey, if right now you offered free food, beds, education and possibilities to raise in life that are not impaired by their race to the City Elves, I'd expect most of them would go quite cheerfully to the Circle towers.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry and Templars treat mages as human beings. Just human beings who are ridiculously dangerous.

Tell that to Knight-Captain "Mages can't be treated like people" Cullen.  He's a moderate as far as templars go.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

While it is true that the day to day runnings of the Circle are not something the games elaborate much on, we do hear about abuses should they occur because they are important for the dilleman the games present.

And it's also undeniably true that mages have acess to privileges that the average Thedosian peasant lacks such as an education, luxurious quarters and walls keeping threats such as the darkspawn away. These should be taking into account if we wish to debate the pros and cons of the Circle system.

Certainly. But when you say the Circle is better then anywhere else, that's colored by the outside looking in experience based on what we know the Circle has and what society suggests it doesn't. We know literacy is not an issue for Thedas, given the fact that commoners can read and write and we regularly see as much in-game.

But the other things education provides? The only things the Circle seems to provide are literacy, history, and arcane education. Perhaps education on ethics/morality, but I'd expect that to be taught to people regardless.

Sure, the common folk don't have access to two of these things easily, but a Circle is hardly a necessary thing for one to have access to these things.  

The Circle's education is good, that much can't be denied. That doesn't mean the system itself is something that shouldn't be fought against, given its complete and total hegemonic domination of the Mages where over the centuries more and more rights the Mages should possess have become harder to obtain and keep.

You're not going to find any Mage arguing that they shouldn't be taught how to control their powers, or be able to read/write, or whatnot. Reformation is not going to happen peacefully. Andraste didn't write the Magisters a strongly worded letter. She fought against them with armies at her back.

It's no different here, as the Chantry has become the very thing it sought to keep from rising again. An Imperium of another name, only kept from becoming such completely because Justinia V is still alive. But if she was killed, Lambert would want someone more amenable to his ideas in place. It's called He Who Fights Monsters.

Worse still, not 6 years prior did a Knight Commander and a Grand Cleric conspire to murder Justinia V and all other Grand Clerics so that the two of them could put the latter in charge and intertwine Church and State completely. Which, again, brews a Tevinter of another name. Had Frenic not decided to betray them for his own goals, they might've succeeded and what then?

Factor in Meredith and the system does need a revolution in order to truly lead to a reformation.

Even if Circles like Kirkwall, you can find mages content with their situation. Bethany would probrably think Ferelden was like being by the Maker's side.

Bethany enjoys being alongside her own people and not feeling like she's such a burden on her family anymore. That's not the same as actually enjoying the Circle system in Kirkwall. The fact that she believes it's right to fight off the Templars come the endgame says as much.

Ferelden, yes. She might be happy in that system.

People are used to others making choices for them, it's why we have governments in the first place.

But within government structures -- some, not all -- freedom is still allowed. The farmer has the choice to join the militia or military, if he so desires. In our world, freedom is paramount to our inalienable rights as human beings.

There's a difference between a person making choices that dictate your life and a person making choices that impact your life.

The Mages not have such an issue with the Circle system if they were told the reasons why they should go by the Templars who come for them and could choose to go or not. And if they choose not to, then an alternative would be suggested but would still entail supervision.

The mages would still have to obey some sorth of authority should they win; no one is free of that.
And hey, if right now you offered free food, beds, education and possibilities to raise in life that are not impaired by their race to the City Elves, I'd expect most of them would go quite cheerfully to the Circle towers.

But you find out that despite the protests that the Mages are treated equally in the Circle, it's not always so. I believe the Elven Mage in the Magi Origin tells as much to a Surana Warden.

Then you have the Templars like the one hunting Feynriel who are willing to torture and kill Elven children in pursuit of their goal and, when questioned about it, say they don't care about the lives of "those knife-ears".

Then you've got Huon, who was literally dragged away from his wife in chains, and forbidden to even see his wife. She couldn't even visit him. Coupled with the above and Kirkwall's propensity for abuse to happen in the Circle, I'd argue that the City Elves do not have it easy in the Circle.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2013 - 04:27 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Tell that to Knight-Captain "Mages can't be treated like people" Cullen.  He's a moderate as far as templars go.

You purposely left that part where he says "They're not like you and me". Which is true, mages are not like mundanes, that's a fact and should not be ignored.
But not only was Cullen at the time terribly traumatized after having been tortured by mages just a few months prior, we can determine whether the Chantry treats mages like people or not by its actions.
Mages are not kept naked, chained to a wall and eating from bowls. They have acess to everything other humans have besides freedom of movement. They are treated like people, just dangerous ones.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Tell that to Knight-Captain "Mages can't be treated like people" Cullen.  He's a moderate as far as templars go.

You purposely left that part where he says "They're not like you and me". Which is true, mages are not like mundanes, that's a fact and should not be ignored.
But not only was Cullen at the time terribly traumatized after having been tortured by mages just a few months prior, we can determine whether the Chantry treats mages like people or not by its actions.
Mages are not kept naked, chained to a wall and eating from bowls. They have acess to everything other humans have besides freedom of movement. They are treated like people, just dangerous ones.

Actually Mages are kept in slave pens just like the Tevinter slaves before them and that IS canon.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

But not only was Cullen at the time terribly traumatized after having been tortured by mages just a few months prior, we can determine whether the Chantry treats mages like people or not by its actions.

I'm willing to cut him some slack on that. It's not a good belief to hold, but it's understandable for him to say such things given what happened to him.

But considering he's an oblivious ****** years later who lets Mages get slaughtered for an act they had nothing to do with, well... he better be feeling some major guilt over the deaths of hundreds upon hundreds of Mage men, women, and children for the actions of a madwoman.

Otherwise he will not be portrayed realistically. No person could not feel guilty over aiding in such a monstrous act and refraining from stopping it.

Mages are not kept naked, chained to a wall and eating from bowls. They have acess to everything other humans have besides freedom of movement. They are treated like people, just dangerous ones.

Not in Kirkwall. They're beaten, starved, abused, raped, and tortured. 

I'd say that's treating Mages like animals as opposed to people. No, I'd say that's treating Mages like things actually. Possessions that belong to a spoiled brat. 

Kirkwall's Gallows has cells for rooms. It's an old slave prison that doesn't really seem to have been renovated to not be as much of a prison as it used to be.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2013 - 04:34 .

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually Mages are kept in slave pens just like the Tevinter slaves before them and that IS canon.

As if a former tevinter prison couldn't be made a pleasant place for humans to live in.
We've been inside Ferelden's Circle, we've read description of rooms in the White Spire of Orlais. They look just like any normal room.

[TEWR]

Ferelden's Circle was never a prison. It actually predates the Imperium. It's easy to make a Tower that was never built as a prison nice and cozy. Gonna be harder to make a prison not seem so when the doors to the rooms are all cells.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Certainly. But when you say the Circle is better then anywhere else, that's colored by the outside looking in experience based on what we know the Circle has and what society suggests it doesn't. We know literacy is not an issue for Thedas, given the fact that commoners can read and write and we regularly see as much in-game.

Did you miss my post regarding Asunder?

But the other things education provides? The only things the Circle seems to provide are literacy, history, and arcane education. Perhaps education on ethics/morality, but I'd expect that to be taught to people regardless.

Sure, the common folk don't have access to two of these things easily, but a Circle is hardly a necessary thing for one to have access to these things.  

The Circle's education is good, that much can't be denied. That doesn't mean the system itself is something that shouldn't be fought against, given its complete and total hegemonic domination of the Mages where over the centuries more and more rights the Mages should possess have become harder to obtain and keep.

You're not going to find any Mage arguing that they shouldn't be taught how to control their powers, or be able to read/write, or whatnot. Reformation is not going to happen peacefully. Andraste didn't write the Magisters a strongly worded letter. She fought against them with armies at her back.

The Circle, on the other hand, is a necessary thing for mundanes to have certain things. Namely life, limb and liberty.
This is not about whether the Circle is the only place mages can learn how to control their powers. The important thing to retain here is the fact that mages are ridiculously dangerous and measures of control are essential. The Circle provides these but also provides them with other privileges such as free food, clothes, education. One could say that their lives are easier than those of the mundanes living outside which brings into question the necessity of the rebellion in the first place.

It's no different here, as the Chantry has become the very thing it sought to keep from rising again. An Imperium of another name, only kept from becoming such completely because Justinia V is still alive. But if she was killed, Lambert would want someone more amenable to his ideas in place. It's called He Who Fights Monsters.

Not even close. Slavery is viewed as repugnant in any Andrastean nation, children are not being killed at parties to entertain guests.
Southern Thedas it's not perfect but the very reason there is any civilization of law and order to speak of in the South is thanks to Emperor Drakon and the Chantry.

Worse still, not 6 years prior did a Knight Commander and a Grand Cleric conspire to murder Justinia V and all other Grand Clerics so that the two of them could put the latter in charge and intertwine Church and State completely. Which, again, brews a Tevinter of another name. Had Frenic not decided to betray them for his own goals, they might've succeeded and what then?

Nothing, really. The Chantry is not the State, that conspirancy did not threaten the Empress.
Living conditions might have worsened for mages but the majority of Thedas wouldn't know a thing was happening.

Bethany enjoys being alongside her own people and not feeling like she's such a burden on her family anymore. That's not the same as actually enjoying the Circle system in Kirkwall. The fact that she believes it's right to fight off the Templars come the endgame says as much.

She is content in the Circle but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a survival instinct.

But within government structures -- some, not all -- freedom is still allowed. The farmer has the choice to join the militia or military, if he so desires. In our world, freedom is paramount to our inalienable rights as human beings.

There's a difference between a person making choices that dictate your life and a person making choices that impact your life.

The mages have freedoms. They can chose to especialize in six different schools of magic and the role they serve in the Circle.
It might not be as many options as others but, just like mundanes have their freedoms restricted to account for the possibility they are dangerous, so must the mages. Since they are more dangerous, their restrictions must reflect this.

The Mages not have such an issue with the Circle system if they were told the reasons why they should go by the Templars who come for them and could choose to go or not. And if they choose not to, then an alternative would be suggested but would still entail supervision.

I agree that sending both a mage and a templar to calmly explain why you must segregate yourself is a reasonable request but mages should still be forced into the Circle.
I can't think of any other system that offers more protection other than what the qunari do.

But you find out that despite the protests that the Mages are treated equally in the Circle, it's not always so. I believe the Elven Mage in the Magi Origin tells as much to a Surana Warden.

I don't have a Suran Warden but he told my Amell humans and elves are equal in the Circle. and we see both an elven First Enchanter and even an elven Grand Enchanter.

Then you have the Templars like the one hunting Feynriel who are willing to torture and kill Elven children in pursuit of their goal and, when questioned about it, say they don't care about the lives of "those knife-ears".

Despicable but they were referring to the dalish, not making a distinction between Feynriel and other mages. He's not even an elf, really.

Then you've got Huon, who was literally dragged away from his wife in chains, and forbidden to even see his wife. She couldn't even visit him.

I expect any mage who refuses to go is brought in chains, I don't see any evidence of them being used only on elves.

[TEWR]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

Did you miss my post regarding Asunder?[/quote]

What, that peasants can only read Dwarven runes? That directly contradicts what we see in-game where peasants are capable of reading and writing.

[quote]

The Circle, on the other hand, is a necessary thing for mundanes to have certain things. Namely life, limb and liberty.

This is not about whether the Circle is the only place mages can learn how to control their powers. The important thing to retain here is the fact that mages are ridiculously dangerous and measures of control are essential.[/quote]

Of course. You'll find that I have never opposed the necessity of the Templar Order as a method of ensuring magical control and regulation over the Mages. You'll find that though my views on blood magic are that it's simply a tool, I'm hesitant to make it legal for any Mage to practice because of its higher likelihood for abuse then benign uses.

You'll also find that, in the past, I have proposed alternative solutions that should feasibly allow for Mages to have freedoms they deserve while also keeping restrictions in place and allowing the Templars to do their job.  

[quote]The Circle provides these but also provides them with other privileges such as free food, clothes, education. One could say that their lives are easier than those of the mundanes living outside which brings into question the necessity of the rebellion in the first place.[/quote]

None of that is free. It requires money, which the Circle must earn itself by way of the Mages and Tranquil that belong to the Formari.

To claim the Mages receive free food and free clothes and free education is disingenuous. Nothing is free.

[quote]
Not even close. Slavery is viewed as repugnant in any Andrastean nation,[/quote]

Slavery is not simply the practice Tevinter employs. There have been other kinds of slavery that the Mages themselves fit.

[quote]children are not being killed at parties to entertain guests.[/quote]

They're killed for the actions of third parties in the name of "protection" because their magic is "a cancer in the heart of the land".

The Chantry's spread numerous things about magic that led, in the past, to children Mages being killed by commoners as scapegoats. That puts the blame on the shoulders of the Chantry. Any child Mage that was killed because of what the Chantry preached about magic in turn made the people more likely to kill a child for a bad crop, a stillbirth, or whatnot.

[quote]Southern Thedas it's not perfect but the very reason there is any civilization of law and order to speak of in the South is thanks to Emperor Drakon and the Chantry.[/quote]

Drakon, the man who used religion as a pretense to conquer neighboring city-states? Drakon, the man that sought to expand the Orlesian Empire to the four corners of the world and ensure that no other religion would exist? Drakon, the man that wanted to move north into the Free Marches but couldn't because the Dales were in his way?

Drakon was a bloody, overly ambitious, and fanatical warlord. Nothing more. The only good thing he did was unify Orlais from warring city-states into a nation on its own, but he did it for all the wrong reasons. And then he sought to bring war to other areas because he wanted his empire to stretch throughout the world.


[quote]Nothing, really. The Chantry is not the State, that conspirancy did not threaten the Empress.[/quote]

That's being naive. Their desire to intertwine the two would necessitate the Empress of Orlais either being on their side -- possibly with an advisor -- or deposed to have someone else ascend to that place.

Historically, the Emperors/Empresses of Orlais have been good friends to the Chantry and have done what was mutually beneficial to the two of them. See the History of Kirkwall.

It does threaten the Empress. 


[quote]Living conditions might have worsened for mages but the majority of Thedas wouldn't know a thing was happening.[/quote]

Not until it threatened them on their doorsteps because they were branded "Enemies of the State/Heathens" for having a different view or doing something the Chantry didn't like, a la Meredith.

[quote]
The mages have freedoms. They can chose to especialize in six different schools of magic and the role they serve in the Circle.[/quote]

That's not much freedom.

They can't marry. They can't leave. They're treated like **** a good deal of the time. Racism exists in the Circle. Only the rich can see their relatives. Only the rich get perks that all the Mages should have. If you're going to say the Mages have freedoms, then it needs to be applied equally.

[quote]It might not be as many options as others but, just like mundanes have their freedoms restricted to account for the possibility they are dangerous, so must the mages. Since they are more dangerous, their restrictions must reflect this.[/quote]

Almost any possible reason one could give for why the Mages shouldn't have X can be refuted by a similar argument for why refusing to give them X would lead to the same result as one who argues giving them X would.

[quote]
Despicable but they were referring to the dalish, not making a distinction between Feynriel and other mages. He's not even an elf, really.[/quote]

It's a small step from calling the Dalish worthless to calling Elven Mages in the Circle worthless. If racism of that degree exists for a Templar out in the field, I wouldn't trust them at home.


[quote]I expect any mage who refuses to go is brought in chains, I don't see any evidence of them being used only on elves.
[/quote]

Actually, as I recall Human Mages aren't dragged away in chains if they refuse to go.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2013 - 03:23 .

[Ieldra]

I cannot justify siding with the Templars in the situations shown in DA2, and this is why:

While I sympathize with the mages and tend to side with them, all other things being equal, I can justify the existence of the Circles in a general sense. The problem is that the Templars have unrestricted power over the mages in the Circles, there is no oversight by an institution not aligned with their interests. Human nature is of the kind that whenever this happens, things tend to deteriorate until the conditions equal those of a concentration camp.

In other words, as long as the Chantry is the only institution overseeing the templars, I will always side against them. Once mages gain some institutional power within the Circles and the right to appeal to non-Chantry authorities, I might reconsider my stance. A mage is a weapon, and unfortunately, the magic easily slips out of control of the mage's conscious intent. I can see merit to the idea of keeping mages contained. How justifiable it is in practice depends entirely on how exactly it's done, how much freedom mages have within the necessary constraints, and how much is done to prevent and punish abuses of the system. The conditions in Kirkwall and Starkhaven cannot be justified. Ferelden's circle is better, but not through any merit in the system they use, but by the accidental goodwill and reasonableness of the ruling Templar. The system needs a serious overhaul before it can be accepted.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is that the Templars have unrestricted power over the mages in the Circles, there is no oversight by an institution not aligned with their interests. Human nature is of the kind that whenever this happens, things tend to deteriorate until the conditions equal those of a concentration camp.

In other words, as long as the Chantry is the only institution overseeing the templars, I will always side against them.

So I take it you alsd side agasint the police in real-life?

Because police is a government institution and so is the internal police. Basicly they same.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry and Templars treat mages as human beings. Just human beings who are ridiculously dangerous.

Tell that to Knight-Captain "Mages can't be treated like people" Cullen.  He's a moderate as far as templars go.

-Polaris

"Mages can't be treated like NORMAL people."
And they can't.
It's logicly unsound, because they are NOT like normal people.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Bethany enjoys being alongside her own people and not feeling like she's such a burden on her family anymore. That's not the same as actually enjoying the Circle system in Kirkwall. The fact that she believes it's right to fight off the Templars come the endgame says as much.

Ferelden, yes. She might be happy in that system.

Evne then she's on the fence and practicly looks mind-controlled by Orsino when she agrees.

But within government structures -- some, not all -- freedom is still allowed. The farmer has the choice to join the militia or military, if he so desires. In our world, freedom is paramount to our inalienable rights as human beings.

Freedom is ALWAYS limited.
Diferent limits for different poeple, depending on various factors.

"Unalianable rights" are not a fact of the universe.

There's a difference between a person making choices that dictate your life and a person making choices that impact your life.

The government dictates a lot about my life.

The Mages not have such an issue with the Circle system if they were told the reasons why they should go by the Templars who come for them and could choose to go or not. And if they choose not to, then an alternative would be suggested but would still entail supervision.

There is no viable alternative.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually Mages are kept in slave pens just like the Tevinter slaves before them and that IS canon.

-Polaris

No, old slave chambers that are refurbished into rooms. Very, VERY big difference.

If Alcartaz is one day turned into a hotel, I'm not being locked up in a tiny cubicle with a tiny bed and a toilet.

[DKJaigen]

There is no viable alternative.

You obviously havent read what will happen in in DA3 because it proves you completely wrong. DA3 doesnt focus on the mages and templars at but on a third faction that toppeld the entire system like a house of cards . And thats the problem, you only see 2 factions: mages and templars .And ignore the far greater dangers

Modifié par DKJaigen, 09 février 2013 - 03:17 .

[dragonflight288]

There is no viable alternative.

You dismiss every other alternative proposed out of hand and don't even consider the possibilities.

We'll see what happens in DA Inquisition, and decide if that's true or not.