587 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You are wrong again.  In the case of Orsino, the writers themselves admitted that they dropped the (idiot) ball when it came to Orisino and essentially admitted that the Orsino-Harvester battle was a mistake (but only for the mage-storyline....it was intended for the Templar one).  There has been no such statement regarding Cullen and his complete lack of empathy for mages to the point where he denies that they are people.

I don't care if there has or hasn't been an admittance.

Whether you care or not is completely irrelevant.  What matters is that the admission in the case of Orsino's idiot ball MAKES the two things completely different when evaluating the character's intent.  Cullen clearly says that mages can not be treated as people.  That is a bald-faced denial of a mage's personhood.  You can not spin that away.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 février 2013 - 12:41 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1. Not all the mages are killed. They scatter.

If Hawke protects the mages from templars who are trying to kill them because they are following orders, there are "many survivors".

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

2. Wether or not all mages are killed is irrelevant. The Annulment is never called without the reason - it's called when the Circle is deemed corrupted. Since most templars followed Meredith, and given the high blood mage activity and known ties to the Circl, such an assumption is not baseless and apparently a lot of templars did believe the Circle was a loss.

Meredith condemns all the mages for the actions of an ex-Grey Warden who is standing right in front of her, who she proceeds to handwave after she orders the execution of hundreds of people who are innocent of Anders' actions.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

3. Yes, Meredith went completely blonkers near the end...point?

Why does it take Meredith threatening Hawke specifically for Cullen to stop Meredith? The mages of Kirkwall aren't responsible for Anders' actions.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

4. No it's not. 

Considering that Meredith is trying to murder hundreds of men, women, and children simply because they are mages, it is an act of genocide. If you help Meredith after the explosion, you're participating in this goal.

[erilben]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

erilben wrote...
Mages are raped and Cullen has to know about it. Hawke easily learns about mages getting raped because they talk openly about it in the Gallows.  One of the tranquil mages talks to her old boyfriend about how she belongs to Ser Alrik now, and this converstation occurs right in front of Cullen.  Cullen is second in command and does nothing. He's as bad as Meredith.

1. Nope.

2. Game placement of characters. It's as relevant as templars and civilians ignoring you while you fling spells and blood around them.

The mages talk openly about it. Hawke only goes to the Gallows a few times over the years and learns of it. But Cullen who lives there doesn't know? Right. He has to know, and doesn't do anything about it because "mages aren't people"

[MisterJB]

erilben wrote...
The mages talk openly about it. Hawke only goes to the Gallows a few times over the years and learns of it. But Cullen who lives there doesn't know? Right. He has to know, and doesn't do anything about it because "mages aren't people"

First of all, if no cutscene is happening, there are good reasons to question the plausibility of what the characters say. For instance, you can click on a character a thousand times and s/he will repeat the same thing over and over and over. Obviously, this makes no sense outside of gameplay which gives us reasons to question whether anyone but us, the player, can listen to what they are saying. Those options are there, clearly, for our benefit alone.
For instance, we hear Alain say that he has been threatened with Tranquility should he tell anyone Karras has been in his chambers; which, BTW, implies punishment for templars who commits these abuses; and Alain is saying that outloud in the middle of the Gallows?

Second, even if Cullen heard Alain say that, where is the evidence? We have reasons to believe he is telling the truth because we've seen that Karras is a cruel man and we know that it is a game. But, ingame, all he has is his word against Karras'.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 février 2013 - 07:02 .

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Second, even if Cullen heard Alain say that, where is the evidence? We have reasons to believe he is telling the truth because we've seen that Karras is a cruel man and we know that it is a game. But, ingame, all he has is his word against Karras'.

The fact it is said at all should have had Knight-Captain Cullen at least investigate (and given  what we know, it wouldn't have been very hard to confirm this with any real and honest investigation).  In today's correctional systems and various institutions (the closest thing we have in real life to the circle), even a RUMOR of such conduct merits a serious investigation (with the suspected party suspended with pay until the investigation is done).  That's because of the problematic psychology inherent with guards (and that's with inmates that are there for valid reasons, i.e. crimes).

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
(and given  what we know, it wouldn't have been very hard to confirm this with any real and honest investigation).

I fully support an investigation but proving a crime of sexual assault in medieval times couldn't have been easy. Suggestions?
And the mages are there for valid reasons, meaning, the danger they pose.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 février 2013 - 07:50 .

[TEWR]

Yeah, aside from catching Karras in the act I can't say there'd be much way to figure it out. We the players know he's doing it, but for the Templars I'm not certain there'd be much.

Karras beats Mages IIRC, so unless Alain has bruises on his person there's not going to be much evidence. It's not like Karras left a trail like Alrik did that would've exposed his crimes.

Not that it really mattered anyway, since Meredith promoted extremists to influential ranks within the order and didn't care one wit about any crimes they may have done.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
(and given  what we know, it wouldn't have been very hard to confirm this with any real and honest investigation).

I fully support an investigation but proving a crime of sexual assault in medieval times couldn't have been easy. Suggestions?
And the mages are there for valid reasons, meaning, the danger they pose.

I dispute that mages are there for valid reasons for the same reason I dispute that interning Japanese-Americans was valid because a few really were spies and really did do a lot of damage.  I know that DG hates the comparison but IMO it's because it cuts too close to the truth.

Setting that aside, it was well known and over a period of years, it wouldn't be too hard to figure it out.  It might not suffice for modern "innocent until proven guilty" but be more than enough (or should be) for "you are unfit for this duty".  We know this is possible because in DAO we find that Gregoire has (or was about to) reassign at least one templar after similiar complaints and after an investigation.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

You said that the Blight can't be defeated without magic. I presented a scenario where it could. The point here is not whether the people of Thedas would be capable of doing so, the point is whether it would be possible without magic. And the fact is that it would.
Besides, if all the human nations in Thedas as well as qunari and dwarven united, they could very well pursue the Darkspawn and destroy them underground.

Good luck with that. You want to accomplish what the tevinter imperium, dwarven empire and the grey wardens could not do in the last millenium.

And perhaps one day aliens will come from the sky, offer us a cure for all diseases, then notice Thedas has mages which goes against the religions of these aliens and they will destroy the world becasue of it.
Let's play hypothetical scenarios. Screw plausibility.

The blight already happend. That their can be more dangerous entities on Thedas is not a unrealistic scenario.

Do you?

No but unlike you im not willing to assume that magic has reached its limit. you do and as the saying goes : assumption is mother of all **** ups. Your not willing to admit that their is a possibilty that their mages around that cannot be defeated by mundane means because it would make the templars and the circle system and your arguments worthless. To bad for you however that this happening in DA 3 already.

Hypothetical scenarios with nothing backing them are worthless. So far, there hasn't been a single thing in Thedas whose physical body wouldn't die if you stuck a sword through its head.

Cory and Flemeth bot cheated death at the hands of 2 most powerful mortals in thedas. I will remind you that the templars have been hunting Flemeth for centuries without much succes.

No, we don't. Technology can and will, in time, achieve everything magic can achieve with the benefit of it being useable by more than a small percentage of the population.
F*ck magic.

Last time i looked i have not been able to travel to another planet with tech. As i said before i endorse tech . But it may take centuries or even millennia . Thedas may not have that much time. Failure to understand magic can lead to your own demise. The qunari learned that the hard way.

The people of Thedas are not ignorant about magic. In fact, it is thanks to their study of the subject that they discovered a way to neutralize the danger mages and Abominations pose. The Rite of Tranquility.

Is this supposed to impress me or something. The Asunder novell already points out that tranquil mages are not immune but invisible for demons. I can imagine that this can bite the templars in the ass when a mage simply tells the demons how to find these tranquil mages in the fade.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 12 février 2013 - 10:35 .

[IanPolaris]

DKJaigen wrote...

The people of Thedas are not ignorant about magic. In fact, it is thanks to their study of the subject that they discovered a way to neutralize the danger mages and Abominations pose. The Rite of Tranquility.

Is this supposed to impress me or something. The Asunder novell already points out that tranquil mages are not immune but invisible for demons. I can imagine that this can bite the templars in the ass when a mage simply tells the demons how to find these tranquil mages in the fade.

Not only that, but I question how much study was needed to 'discover' the rite of tranquility.  Point in fact we know how to make a mage tranquil.  Kill their spirit form while they are in the fade.  Since mages are 'aware' in the fade naturally, it seems likely that tranquility was discovered like most technology was before the rise of the modern scientific methode:  Trial and Error.

What's more, as has just been mentioned, tranquility actually doesn't make you immune from possession or demons at all.  We not only see that in Asunder, but as far back as DAO where we had three captive tranquil mages all become possessed when during the broken circle mission.

We also have Wilhelm of Honleth and other references that flat out state that the Chantry is actually inhibiting magical research.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Whether you care or not is completely irrelevant.  What matters is that the admission in the case of Orsino's idiot ball MAKES the two things completely different when evaluating the character's intent.  Cullen clearly says that mages can not be treated as people.  That is a bald-faced denial of a mage's personhood.  You can not spin that away.

I can and I will.

You are 100% sure that the omission of "normal" is a sign of vileness.
You are 100% sure that that sentance means Cullen denies them their humanity.

Both of those are not facts.

And they do not match how the Character acts - aside from that questionable sentance, there is nothing else to indicate he thinks mages are subhuman scum.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Whether you care or not is completely irrelevant.  What matters is that the admission in the case of Orsino's idiot ball MAKES the two things completely different when evaluating the character's intent.  Cullen clearly says that mages can not be treated as people.  That is a bald-faced denial of a mage's personhood.  You can not spin that away.

I can and I will.

You are 100% sure that the omission of "normal" is a sign of vileness.
You are 100% sure that that sentance means Cullen denies them their humanity.

Both of those are not facts.

And they do not match how the Character acts - aside from that questionable sentance, there is nothing else to indicate he thinks mages are subhuman scum.

I will make this as simple as possible:

Cullen flat out states that mages aren't people.  This isn't my interpretation.  This isn't reading into anything.  Knight Commander Cullen explicitly states this.

More importantly, Bioware has never backed off from this statement.  They have never said it was a mistake or said that they didn't mean it that way, or anything of the sort.  We as the player/audience are supposed to take this statement at complete face value.

OTOH, we HAVE been told that Orsino-Harvestor was a mistake by the people that wrote it (if you played the mage-oriented Hawke) and that it was a late decision to insure that everyone got two 'boss battles'.

So you CAN NOT equate the two with any degree of credibility.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
If Hawke protects the mages from templars who are trying to kill them because they are following orders, there are "many survivors".[/qutoe]

There are survivors even if Hawke is pro-templar.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
2. Wether or not all mages are killed is irrelevant. The Annulment is never called without the reason - it's called when the Circle is deemed corrupted. Since most templars followed Meredith, and given the high blood mage activity and known ties to the Circl, such an assumption is not baseless and apparently a lot of templars did believe the Circle was a loss. [/quote]

Meredith condemns all the mages for the actions of an ex-Grey Warden who is standing right in front of her, who she proceeds to handwave after she orders the execution of hundreds of people who are innocent of Anders' actions.
[/quote]

Meredith excuse is bogus, but it is not what this is all about.
After all, Al Capone got sent to jail becaue of tax evasion, but that is not the reason people were after him adn wanted him in jail.
In other words, the Circle was already deemed corrupted and Annulment was already deemed neccesary.
Furthermore, we know Anders did work alone, Meredith didn't.
Not that that justifies her redicolous reasoning.



[quote]
Why does it take Meredith threatening Hawke specifically for Cullen to stop Meredith? The mages of Kirkwall aren't responsible for Anders' actions.[/quote]

Which isn't the point.
The point is  - is the Circle corrupted or not? Err on the saide of caution or don't?

Frankly, I think 99% of the templars didn't give a rats ass about Anders. Even Meredith leavs him with Hawke...another instance of stupidity in writing.


[quote]
Considering that Meredith is trying to murder hundreds of men, women, and children simply because they are mages, it is an act of genocide. If you help Meredith after the explosion, you're participating in this goal.
[/quote]

So if I bombed a small village full of people infected with a deadly virus to stop it from spreading...is that genocide?
You realise that Anullment is when you kill mages not just because they are mages, but because the Circle is deemed too corrupted.

[Lotion Soronarr]

erilben wrote...
The mages talk openly about it. Hawke only goes to the Gallows a few times over the years and learns of it. But Cullen who lives there doesn't know? Right. He has to know, and doesn't do anything about it because "mages aren't people"

No, he doesn't.

Ever occured to you that Hawke hears it specificly because he's not a templar?
Or did you miss the common behavior among humans - people not talking about some things in front of some people, and talking about them in front of others?

Furthermore, how do you know he didn't do anything about it? What to those mages talk about later? Are they even there?

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
If Hawke protects the mages from templars who are trying to kill them because they are following orders, there are "many survivors".

There are survivors even if Hawke is pro-templar.

You only get an explicit mention of survivors (from Varric) if you side with the mages.  There is no evidence that any mages survive if you side with Meredith (the captured mages are made tranquil per WoG).  I think most people would not consider tranquiled mages to be survivors.  I know I don't.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
2. Wether or not all mages are killed is irrelevant. The Annulment is never called without the reason - it's called when the Circle is deemed corrupted. Since most templars followed Meredith, and given the high blood mage activity and known ties to the Circl, such an assumption is not baseless and apparently a lot of templars did believe the Circle was a loss.

Meredith condemns all the mages for the actions of an ex-Grey Warden who is standing right in front of her, who she proceeds to handwave after she orders the execution of hundreds of people who are innocent of Anders' actions.

Meredith excuse is bogus, but it is not what this is all about.
After all, Al Capone got sent to jail becaue of tax evasion, but that is not the reason people were after him adn wanted him in jail.
In other words, the Circle was already deemed corrupted and Annulment was already deemed neccesary.
Furthermore, we know Anders did work alone, Meredith didn't.
Not that that justifies her redicolous reasoning.

You should have stopped with Meredith's excuse being bogus.  The Grand Cleric had already ruled that the circle was not irredeemable, and nothing changed except that the Grand Cleric was oh-so-conveniently out of the way.  I guarantee you that the Divine would have had a very 'interesting' discussion with Meredith had she survived.

Why does it take Meredith threatening Hawke specifically for Cullen to stop Meredith? The mages of Kirkwall aren't responsible for Anders' actions.

Which isn't the point.
The point is  - is the Circle corrupted or not? Err on the saide of caution or don't?

The circle wasn't irredeemable corrupted based on the one person charged with making that call:  Grand Cleric Elthina.  The state of the circle did NOT change because of what a Grey-Warden rebel did no matter how much you might wish otherwise.

Frankly, I think 99% of the templars didn't give a rats ass about Anders. Even Meredith leavs him with Hawke...another instance of stupidity in writing.

Which makes the fact that Meredith was itching to kill mages because they were mages that much more blatent.  At this point Ser Cullen SHOULD have stepped in.

Considering that Meredith is trying to murder hundreds of men, women, and children simply because they are mages, it is an act of genocide. If you help Meredith after the explosion, you're participating in this goal.

So if I bombed a small village full of people infected with a deadly virus to stop it from spreading...is that genocide?
You realise that Anullment is when you kill mages not just because they are mages, but because the Circle is deemed too corrupted.

Meredith was killing mages because they were mages.  Killing all blue-eyed people because a few might have a virus is in fact genocide. Hate to break it to you.  Same here.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

erilben wrote...
The mages talk openly about it. Hawke only goes to the Gallows a few times over the years and learns of it. But Cullen who lives there doesn't know? Right. He has to know, and doesn't do anything about it because "mages aren't people"

No, he doesn't.

Ever occured to you that Hawke hears it specificly because he's not a templar?
Or did you miss the common behavior among humans - people not talking about some things in front of some people, and talking about them in front of others?

Furthermore, how do you know he didn't do anything about it? What to those mages talk about later? Are they even there?

What?  Knight-Captain Cullen doesn't have non-templars in the Gallows that report to him?  Puh-leeze!  Either Knight Captain Cullen knows (and doesn't care) or Knight Captain Cullen is incompetant.  Pick one.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Incompetent. This is the man who will refuse to take Anders into custody if Hawke informs him of Anders' plot and has Anders, Fenris, and Aveline in the party -- one who would be giddy at the thought of dealing with Anders and the other who would be duty bound by the law.

DG has said that Cullen's really oblivious, actually, in DAII. Shame. He had potential there. Still does for DAIII, but I doubt Bioware will do his character justice.

[erilben]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

erilben wrote...
The mages talk openly about it. Hawke only goes to the Gallows a few times over the years and learns of it. But Cullen who lives there doesn't know? Right. He has to know, and doesn't do anything about it because "mages aren't people"

No, he doesn't.

Ever occured to you that Hawke hears it specificly because he's not a templar?
Or did you miss the common behavior among humans - people not talking about some things in front of some people, and talking about them in front of others?

Randomly, Helena the tranquil mage and her boyfriend will start up a conversation without your input. They are talking for anyone in range to hear. The boyfriend will say he still loves her. Helena says to that "I'm Ser Alrik's now. He's the only one who can command me." She doesn't seem to think this is something she shouldn't say in public. Do tranquil even understand they shouldn't say certain things in front of people?

And Cullen can't even notice all these new female mages made tranquil by Alrik?

Furthermore, how do you know he didn't do anything about it? What to those mages talk about later? Are they even there?

Cullen doesn't do anything about Alrik. It took Anders and Hawke to deal with him.

Also there's Alain who says he gets raped by Karras (if not killed). If you do kill him in Act 1, you might hear his "keep the pretty ones alive" battle shout. Again like Alrik, it's up to Hawke if he dies or not. If he doesn't die, he will still be a templar in act 3, so that's at least 6 years Karras gets away with raping mages.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
What's more, as has just been mentioned, tranquility actually doesn't make you immune from possession or demons at all.  We not only see that in Asunder, but as far back as DAO where we had three captive tranquil mages all become possessed when during the broken circle mission.

Correction, the Rite of Tranquility makes one undesirable to demons much like drawer.
A demon would actually have to be forced inside the body of a Tranquil which is what happens in Broken Circle.

We also have Wilhelm of Honleth and other references that flat out state that the Chantry is actually inhibiting magical research.

Just like we have codexs with examples of magical research being conducted by both Circle Mages and templars and we know from lore, altough we haven't seen it much, of magic being used in daily life. Maybe what the Chantry disaproves of is mages summoning demons in their cellars, yes?
I'd rather they just forego magical research entirely and focused on more mundane technology but that's neither here nor there.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...


Correction, the Rite of Tranquility makes one undesirable to demons much like drawer.
A demon would actually have to be forced inside the body of a Tranquil which is what happens in Broken Circle.

Doesnt change the fact that tranquility can be undone making it worthless right now unless i know what the limits are.

Just like we have codexs with examples of magical research being conducted by both Circle Mages and templars and we know from lore, altough we haven't seen it much, of magic being used in daily life. Maybe what the Chantry disaproves of is mages summoning demons in their cellars, yes?
I'd rather they just forego magical research entirely and focused on more mundane technology but that's neither here nor there.

You cannot be pro tech and be pro templar at the same time.  Or havent noticed that the chantry doctrine opposes secular science.

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
Doesnt change the fact that tranquility can be undone making it worthless right now unless i know what the limits are.

Prisons can be opened. Clearly, the prisional system is worthless.

You cannot be pro tech and be pro templar at the same time.  Or havent noticed that the chantry doctrine opposes secular science.

This ought to be good. How so?

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

You cannot be pro tech and be pro templar at the same time.  Or havent noticed that the chantry doctrine opposes secular science.

This ought to be good. How so?

Medical Science (esp Surgery) has often been confused and condemned (and punished by the Templars/Chantry) as blood-magic.  That's how.  (To the extent that people are afraid to be healers of this sort.)

-Polaris

[Lazy Jer]

IanPolaris wrote...

Medical Science (esp Surgery) has often been confused and condemned (and punished by the Templars/Chantry) as blood-magic.  That's how.  (To the extent that people are afraid to be healers of this sort.)

-Polaris

Citation needed.

[MisterJB]

Lazy Jer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Medical Science (esp Surgery) has often been confused and condemned (and punished by the Templars/Chantry) as blood-magic.  That's how.  (To the extent that people are afraid to be healers of this sort.)

-Polaris

Citation needed.

Quite.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Medical Science (esp Surgery) has often been confused and condemned (and punished by the Templars/Chantry) as blood-magic.  That's how.  (To the extent that people are afraid to be healers of this sort.)

-Polaris

Citation needed.

Quite.

Not a problem:

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic

Money Quote:

"The Chantry has gone to great lengths to ban the use of blood magic, going so far as to suppress anatomical study and condemning its use even in the face of severe circumstances. The Chantry's fears have also resulted in the relentless hunt for all apostates, regardless of origin, reasoning that any mage left unsupervised by the Chantry or the Templars will ultimately succumb to the temptation of blood magic.[7"

-Polaris