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[MisterJB]

And where is the wiki's source? Links six and seven make no mention of Chantry supressing anatomical study.
Regardless, even if true, one can easily disaprove of the Chantry interfering with mundane fields of study while approving of the methods they use to reduce the danger mages pose. I don't see any reason why it must be all-or-nothing.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

And where is the wiki's source? Links six and seven make no mention of Chantry supressing anatomical study.
Regardless, even if true, one can easily disaprove of the Chantry interfering with mundane fields of study while approving of the methods they use to reduce the danger mages pose. I don't see any reason why it must be all-or-nothing.

The quote is cited and it's the Dragon Age own Codex Entries on Malificarum and Apostates.  Sorry but this is properly cited.

-Polaris

[Lazy Jer]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And where is the wiki's source? Links six and seven make no mention of Chantry supressing anatomical study.
Regardless, even if true, one can easily disaprove of the Chantry interfering with mundane fields of study while approving of the methods they use to reduce the danger mages pose. I don't see any reason why it must be all-or-nothing.

The quote is cited and it's the Dragon Age own Codex Entries on Malificarum and Apostates.  Sorry but this is properly cited.

-Polaris

If it's from the Codex entries then it's from a fictional character (as most if not all the Codex entries are from fictional characters) meaning their from a certain character's point of view.  Who is the character this is coming from?

[erilben]

From the description of the Tome of the Mortal Vessel: "Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection, but dedicated scribes keep anatomical works from disappearing."

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
I will make this as simple as possible:

Cullen flat out states that mages aren't people.  This isn't my interpretation.  This isn't reading into anything.  Knight Commander Cullen explicitly states this.

And I will make this is simple as possible too - what exactly it means is not for you to decide.
What does he mean when he sez that? What does that sentance mean to Cullen - no you?
You think you know - obviously. I think you don't.

So you CAN NOT equate the two with any degree of credibility.

And I don't have to.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There are survivors even if Hawke is pro-templar.
[/quote]

You only get an explicit mention of survivors (from Varric) if you side with the mages.  There is no evidence that any mages survive if you side with Meredith (the captured mages are made tranquil per WoG).  I think most people would not consider tranquiled mages to be survivors.  I know I don't.[/quote]

Well I don't consider your consideration important.


[quote]
[quote]
You should have stopped with Meredith's excuse being bogus.  The Grand Cleric had already ruled that the circle was not irredeemable, and nothing changed except that the Grand Cleric was oh-so-conveniently out of the way.  I guarantee you that the Divine would have had a very 'interesting' discussion with Meredith had she survived. [/quote]

Your gurantees mean nothing to me.
Thinking the Circle beyond saving is not far-fetched; and you sure as hell don't know what happened in the period between.


[quote][quote]
Which isn't the point.
The point is  - is the Circle corrupted or not? Err on the saide of caution or don't?
[/quote]

The circle wasn't irredeemable corrupted based on the one person charged with making that call:  Grand Cleric Elthina.  The state of the circle did NOT change because of what a Grey-Warden rebel did no matter how much you might wish otherwise.[/quote]

And Elthina made that call how long ago?
And Elthina is infalible?
With her gone, the call fell onto Meredith.


[quote][quote]
Frankly, I think 99% of the templars didn't give a rats ass about Anders. Even Meredith leavs him with Hawke...another instance of stupidity in writing.
[/quote]

Which makes the fact that Meredith was itching to kill mages because they were mages dangerous and beyond saving that much more blatent.[/quote]

Fixed it for you.



[quote]
[quote]
So if I bombed a small village full of people infected with a deadly virus to stop it from spreading...is that genocide?
You realise that Anullment is when you kill mages not just because they are mages, but because the Circle is deemed too corrupted.
[/quote]

Meredith was killing mages because they were mages.  Killing all blue-eyed people because a few might have a virus is in fact genocide. Hate to break it to you.  Same here.
-Polaris
[/quote]

Pointless semantics.
It's a type of genocide most people in leadership positions would do.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
What?  Knight-Captain Cullen doesn't have non-templars in the Gallows that report to him?  Puh-leeze!  Either Knight Captain Cullen knows (and doesn't care) or Knight Captain Cullen is incompetant.  Pick one.

-Polaris

Does he have them?
Did any mage tell anything to them? Hell, maybe the mages even know who the snitches are?

The statement "X MUST have known" is blatantly false. There is never a must.

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
The quote is cited and it's the Dragon Age own Codex Entries on Malificarum and Apostates.  Sorry but this is properly cited.

I urge you to check again. If you check link six, it direct you to the Codex Entry: Blood Magic: The Forbidden school which makes no mention of anatomical studies being hindered by the Chantry.
Link seven takes us to Codex entry: Apostates which, again, makes no such mention. Therefore, we must question, what is the wiki's source.

erilben wrote...

From the description of the Tome of the
Mortal Vessel: "Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection,
but dedicated scribes keep anatomical works from disappearing."

Ah, see now, this is actually something. Of course, it still has no source and it makes no mention of the Chantry.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The quote is cited and it's the Dragon Age own Codex Entries on Malificarum and Apostates.  Sorry but this is properly cited.

I urge you to check again. If you check link six, it direct you to the Codex Entry: Blood Magic: The Forbidden school which makes no mention of anatomical studies being hindered by the Chantry.
Link seven takes us to Codex entry: Apostates which, again, makes no such mention. Therefore, we must question, what is the wiki's source.

erilben wrote...

From the description of the Tome of the
Mortal Vessel: "Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection,
but dedicated scribes keep anatomical works from disappearing."

Ah, see now, this is actually something. Of course, it still has no source and it makes no mention of the Chantry.

The Dragon Age Wiki is about as good as it gets and it does draw on game lore from the game itself both from the codex entries and from the item descriptions.  The Tome of Mortal Vessel says that fear of blood magic has inhibited medical science.  Which organization makes it a point of stigmitizing blood magic to the point of encouraging the labeling of all apostates as malificarum?  The Chantry.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
What?  Knight-Captain Cullen doesn't have non-templars in the Gallows that report to him?  Puh-leeze!  Either Knight Captain Cullen knows (and doesn't care) or Knight Captain Cullen is incompetant.  Pick one.

-Polaris

Does he have them?
Did any mage tell anything to them? Hell, maybe the mages even know who the snitches are?

The statement "X MUST have known" is blatantly false. There is never a must.

If Knight-Captain Cullen doesn't have them, then he is incompetant. 

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Dragon Age Wiki is about as good as it gets and it does draw on game lore from the game itself both from the codex entries and from the item descriptions.

The wiki is written by fans and while certainly an admirable work, it's not infallible.

The Tome of Mortal Vessel says that fear of blood magic has inhibited medical science.  Which organization makes it a point of stigmitizing blood magic to the point of encouraging the labeling of all apostates as malificarum?  The Chantry.

None of which indicates the Chantry activelly persecuting mundane medics or supressing any sort of medical science. It might simply be an unintended side effect of the stigma related to blood magic and caused by a very reasonabnle fear of it, I might add.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Dragon Age Wiki is about as good as it gets and it does draw on game lore from the game itself both from the codex entries and from the item descriptions.

The wiki is written by fans and while certainly an admirable work, it's not infallible.

The Tome of Mortal Vessel says that fear of blood magic has inhibited medical science.  Which organization makes it a point of stigmitizing blood magic to the point of encouraging the labeling of all apostates as malificarum?  The Chantry.

None of which indicates the Chantry activelly persecuting mundane medics or supressing any sort of medical science. It might simply be an unintended side effect of the stigma related to blood magic and caused by a very reasonabnle fear of it, I might add.

Actually when you combine this with Wilhelm's letter to First Enchanter Arlan (see Honnleth in DAO) we do know that the Chantry is anti-science or at least anti-magical research.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually when you combine this with Wilhelm's letter to First Enchanter Arlan (see Honnleth in DAO) we do know that the Chantry is anti-science or at least anti-magical research.

Wilhelm is directly contradicted by the various codexs on spirits and demons that indicate a lengthy research of their nature. The Desire Demon's in particular paints an experiment much similar to what Wilhelm was doing: summon a creature, study it.
And "Asunder", unfortunately, show us magic being used in daily life such as Val-Royeaux's glowstones or the Circle's comunication stones which did not exist in the time of Tevinter (they used the Eluvians).
Science is all but stagnated in Thedas, tragically, but the Chantry is not opposed to magical research when it is not being conducted by a lone mage in his cellar.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
The Dragon Age Wiki is about as good as it gets and it does draw on game lore from the game itself both from the codex entries and from the item descriptions.

The wiki is written by fans and while certainly an admirable work, it's not infallible.

The Tome of Mortal Vessel says that fear of blood magic has inhibited medical science.  Which organization makes it a point of stigmitizing blood magic to the point of encouraging the labeling of all apostates as malificarum?  The Chantry.

None of which indicates the Chantry activelly persecuting mundane medics or supressing any sort of medical science. It might simply be an unintended side effect of the stigma related to blood magic and caused by a very reasonabnle fear of it, I might add.

Actually when you combine this with Wilhelm's letter to First Enchanter Arlan (see Honnleth in DAO) we do know that the Chantry is anti-science or at least anti-magical research.

-Polaris

Medicinally, Thedas still seems to be reliant on leeches as a solution to their problems in regards to mundane medics. 

So indeed, the Chantry has suppressed anatomical study. The Tome of the Mortal Vessel even says as much in its lore description. Rarely will they ever authorize it. The only one that I can recall is the Corpse Gall quest as a means to find out more about how to fight corpses. But I'm not even certain I'd classify that as anatomical study meant to better medicinal applications for society, considering it has nothing to do with the living.

EDIT: Although if Meredith's labeling of magic as being a cancer is anything to go by, Thedas seems to know about cancer as well. Not surprising, as one could trace cancer's history all the way back to records from Ancient Egypt.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 février 2013 - 08:19 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The Tome of the Mortal Vessel even says as much in its lore description. Rarely will they ever authorize it.

Must I repeat myself? The Tome of the Mortal Vessel makes no mention of the Chantry. It talks of anatomical study being looked upon with suspicious eyes due to fear of blood magic. None of this indicates an active effort from the Chantry to supress its study. In fact, the side quest that you mentioned, Skin Deep, indicates an attempt by the Chantry to study the inner workings of the human body. Not to combat disases, true, but to fight the undead.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 février 2013 - 08:20 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Medicinally, Thedas still seems to be reliant on leeches as a solution to their problems in regards to mundane medics. 

This would be a very good question to pose to a writer. How far is mundane medical science in Thedas? They know of cancers, poisons and antidotes, the poultices appear to have no magical properties but the healers we encounter always appear to be of a magical nature.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Must I repeat myself?

That's what the BSN thrives off of. Repeating things many times over! 

The Tome of the Mortal Vessel makes no mention of the Chantry. It talks of anatomical study being looked upon with suspicious eyes due to fear of blood magic.

And the Chantry is the one who propagates such fear of blood magic. They could just as easily say "Studying dead corpses isn't the same as blood magic, citizens" and help the people to understand a difference between the two.

In fact, it'd help if the Chantry didn't hold such a monopoly on magical knowledge. How is the common man supposed to stand a better chance against such things if he does not understand them? He might not make a difference, true, but it'd sure help to reduce casualties.

None of this indicates an active effort from the Chantry to supress its study.

Allowing it to continue is indicative of support of it.

In fact, the side quest that you mentioned, Skin Deep, indicates an attempt by the Chantry to study the inner workings of the human body. Not to combat disases, true, but to fight the undead.

Indeed. Though they're not really studying even a normal corpse's internal structure, so it's not really the same thing as a general study of the dead. From the description of Corpse Gall:

A malformed organ cut from the gut of a reanimated horror.

All they're really studying is how a Demon warps a corpse's structure and how this affects fighting them. So that's more magical research rather then anatomical study. Though if one could take a screenie of the actual Chanter's Board request, that'd also tell us a great deal of their outlook on anatomical study.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 février 2013 - 08:38 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

This would be a very good question to pose to a writer. How far is mundane medical science in Thedas? They know of cancers, poisons and antidotes, the poultices appear to have no magical properties but the healers we encounter always appear to be of a magical nature.

I believe it depends on the nation in question. For some reason, my mind is telling me the Dwarves are more advanced then anywhere else medicinally, save for maybe the Qunari.

For one, they have a skilled Dwarven Herbalist capable of identifying a kingkiller poison and drawing up a list of alchemical reagents that would serve as an antidote. For another, something's telling me they have performed dissections and anatomical studies of people. But that could just be one of those many fanfic ideas I've had swirling around in my head.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 février 2013 - 08:40 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Dragon Age Wiki is about as good as it gets and it does draw on game lore from the game itself both from the codex entries and from the item descriptions.  The Tome of Mortal Vessel says that fear of blood magic has inhibited medical science.  Which organization makes it a point of stigmitizing blood magic to the point of encouraging the labeling of all apostates as malificarum?  The Chantry.

LOLno.
And Chantry working agaisnt science? SOME science research - yes. But that holds true for anyone. Any ruling body, government or organizations will have things it supports and things it doesn't.

Unless you are  telling me that if you were the ruler of the world, any and all research would be fully allowed - no matter how dangerous or morally reprehensable it might be to you?
Because if you forbid or sanction ANY research, then you are doing the exact same thing - only your criteria are different.

If Knight-Captain Cullen doesn't have them, then he is incompetant. 

Still doesn't rebutt the issue of snitches being known or snitches themselves not knowing.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And the Chantry is the one who propagates such fear of blood magic. They could just as easily say "Studying dead corpses isn't the same as blood magic, citizens" and help the people to understand a difference between the two.

I contest the idea that there needs to be a Chantry for fear of blood magic to propagate, especially after Tevinter.

In fact, it'd help if the Chantry didn't hold such a monopoly on magical knowledge. How is the common man supposed to stand a better chance against such things if he does not understand them? He might not make a difference, true, but it'd sure help to reduce casualties.

True, the common man could stand to be better informed.

Allowing it to continue is indicative of support of it.

Not at all. We allow things to continue everyday but it doesn't mean we support it, so do governments.
If there is a generalized fear of surgeries in Thedas; which hinges on a description without even a codex entry; we're still talking about an entire continent. It would not be easy to change its cultural outlook.
And it's not like we're seeing an epidemic of doctors being thrown out of towns with stones or would be medics stealing corpses to study their interior. It's a passing mention in a description of a book without even a codex entry.

It's far more likely for a mage child to be lynched and the Chantry does its best to stop such things from happening.

hough if one could take a screenie of the actual Chanter's Board request, that'd also tell us a great deal of their outlook on anatomical study.

Didn't take a screenie because...well, I'm lazy but I still checked it. The point of the study is to discover how to better fight Corpses; it seems fairly obvious to me, shoot them in the head; and to prevent its reocurrence.

It's magical research. Still, I have to make a mental note to mention it in my next inevitable debate with Polaris over how much the Chantry allows magical research.

[TEWR]

I contest the idea that there needs to be a Chantry for fear of blood magic to propagate, especially after Tevinter.

Okay, perhaps propagate was the wrong word. I don't mean they're the instigators of that fear nor do I mean to suggest without them people wouldn't fear it, only that they allow it to grow unchecked without trying to make note of differences in speeches towards the populus.

We allow things to continue everyday but it doesn't mean we support it

We do not really have the power to change these things we do not support. The Chantry does.

It would not be easy to change its cultural outlook.

Ignoring a problem because the first step is the hardest is not an argument for allowing it to remain as is.

And it's not like we're seeing an epidemic of doctors being thrown out of towns with stones or would be medics stealing corpses to study their interior.

Although it would be interesting to see that.

It's magical research. Still, I have to make a mental note to mention it in my next inevitable debate with Polaris over how much the Chantry allows magical research.

one could make the argument that it's stuff they should've known already and that they're only allowing it now because of the events in Redcliffe and that otherwise, the research might not have been allowed.

I also recall a few other instances of magical research in Awakening. The Sylvanwood quest, for one.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The Tome of the Mortal Vessel even says as much in its lore description. Rarely will they ever authorize it.

Must I repeat myself? The Tome of the Mortal Vessel makes no mention of the Chantry. It talks of anatomical study being looked upon with suspicious eyes due to fear of blood magic. None of this indicates an active effort from the Chantry to supress its study. In fact, the side quest that you mentioned, Skin Deep, indicates an attempt by the Chantry to study the inner workings of the human body. Not to combat disases, true, but to fight the undead.

How very precious. You are just as idiotic as Lotion that you are not willing to admit your defeat when your arguments get debunked by lore. Here is another fine example copy pasted from the codex.

The capital city is Val Royeaux, which boasts the University of Orlais: a
major center of learning that attracts young nobles from all over Thedas
with the best education one can buy. The University is a relatively
modern institution, whose liberal-minded professors have already
clashed with religious conservatives over the content of their classes.
This is likely to become a much larger issue in the future.


Be a man next tiem and just acknowledge your defeat. And will keep saying you cannot be pro chantry and pro tech at the same time. You really have to choose now.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
We do not really have the power to change these things we do not support. The Chantry does.

Governments allow many things to happen. Expecting the Chantry to be able to change the cultural outlook of an entire continent in one's lifetime is unrealistic.

Ignoring a problem because the first step is the hardest is not an argument for allowing it to remain as is.

We don't even know if there is a problem. All we have is a passing mention that is not even in the Codex.
Unless you mean the technological stagnation of Thedas in which case, yes, there is a problem. And one I don't think the writers are interested in solving. They will most likely end the Mage-Mundane conflict by having mages work for society or something just as unrealistic.

one could make the argument that it's stuff they should've known already and that they're only allowing it now because of the events in Redcliffe and that otherwise, the research might not have been allowed.

Now you're remiding me of those people who go "Too Little, Too Late" when discussing Justinia's reforms.
Is magic going somehwere I don't know about? Because there would be much rejoicing.
Mundanes would be happy they are no longer threatened; mages are happy they can be free; dwarves are happy there are no longer Emissaries; altough their lyrium market would take a blow; the Darkspawn might even die on their own; qunari are happy their invasion will be easier.
See, magic is horrible and everyone would be happy if it was gone. Except the Dalish and Magisters.

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
Be a man next tiem and just acknowledge your defeat. And will keep saying you cannot be pro chantry and pro tech at the same time. You really have to choose now.

Tell you what, how about you actually learn the contents of the classes of the university and how they clash with the Chantry before stroking your ego, yes? As far as we know, all they are arguing about is over the nature of Andraste AKA was she a mage or not, in which case it would have little to nothing to do with the technological advancement of Thedas.

Your suggestion that people can't be both scientifically and religiously minded despite there being billions of people in our world who are both is adorable. It's not like people can agree with their religious institutions on some issues and disagree on others. Nope, not at all.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Governments allow many things to happen. Expecting the Chantry to be able to change the cultural outlook of an entire continent in one's lifetime is unrealistic.

I never said in one's lifetime. Whether it'd take a century or four is irrelevant. Strides and attempts must be made.

We don't even know if there is a problem. All we have is a passing mention that is not even in the Codex.

Item descriptions are part of the lore.

Unless you mean the technological stagnation of Thedas in which case, yes, there is a problem. And one I don't think the writers are interested in solving. They will most likely end the Mage-Mundane conflict by having mages work for society or something just as unrealistic.

I never really got the whole opposition towards the concept of science progressing in fantasy settings that you see in some fans. Obviously it shouldn't be an instantaneous leap from Medieval-ish to Mass Effect-ish, but to keep it stagnant over the course of many millenia seems to be really unrealistic. 

Unless all scientists are routinely killed. But that's not the case. There's just no real care given towards making progress. 

Now you're remiding me of those people who go "Too Little, Too Late" when discussing Justinia's reforms.
Is magic going somehwere I don't know about? Because there would be much rejoicing.

I'm just saying that since the Templars have faced corpses before, they should've actually studied them in the centuries prior. Tranquility's another matter, as we know very little about that -- its

See, magic is horrible and everyone would be happy if it was gone. Except the Dalish and Magisters.

And the Rivaini and Chasind.