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[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Item descriptions are part of the lore.

Certainly but fear of blood magic hampering medical research is important and you'd think noticeable or mentioned in more places.

I never really got the whole opposition towards the concept of science progressing in fantasy settings that you see in some fans. Obviously it shouldn't be an instantaneous leap from Medieval-ish to Mass Effect-ish, but to keep it stagnant over the course of many millenia seems to be really unrealistic. 

Unless all scientists are routinely killed. But that's not the case. There's just no real care given towards making progress.

Fantasy settings advance at the speed the author wishes them to, regardless of realism. In Thedas, we have reasonable explanations as to why there hasn't been much advance such as reliance upon magic; you can see the technological difference between humans and other mundane oriented races such as qunari and dwarves; and society having to be rebuilt every hundred years or so after the Bligths.
But in other settings, there are basically no explanations. For instance, the last war with the White Walkers ocurred 8000 years before Game of Thrones began and the First Men already used steel weapons to fight them but there hasn't been much technological advancement after all these millenia where humanity could grow unhindered.

Unless it's actually a point the author wants to bring across such as Tolkien and his anti-industrialism with Saruman amongst others.

Unfortunately, I don't see David Gaider aproacing the Mundane-Mage conflict from this viewpoint. It seems that, so far, the great fear is mages sitting on thrones which we both know is not necessary for magic to take over the infrastructure of society.

And the Rivaini and Chasind.

We had our own druids who chanted and entered "trances". I'm sure they'll survive.

[TEWR]

Certainly but fear of blood magic hampering medical research is important and you'd think noticeable or mentioned in more places

I'd hope DA3 would touch upon this a bit. It's an interesting aspect that would lend itself well to the Mage-Templar conflict as a whole.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Okay, perhaps propagate was the wrong word. I don't mean they're the instigators of that fear nor do I mean to suggest without them people wouldn't fear it, only that they allow it to grow unchecked without trying to make note of differences in speeches towards the populus.

We do not really have the power to change these things we do not support. The Chantry does.

You are seriously overestimating the power of the Chantry.

Large organization can't control the world - heck, they can't even control themselves.
In the Church of today that are priests that say all kinds of s*** - and that's with todays communications.

In the middle ages it was a million times worse.
There are well-documented cases of priests (fake and real) spreading all kinds of things. And since all news traveled by foot (or horse) it could take months before something would be done about it - if ever.

For example, there was one case of a priest inciting the people agaisnt the jews, even after the Pope specificly ordered not to do so. In the end, Tomas Aquanas had to ge there personally to get rid of that priest.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
How very precious. You are just as idiotic as Lotion that you are not willing to admit your defeat when your arguments get debunked by lore. Here is another fine example copy pasted from the codex.

DKJaigen, I will admit defeat when someone with an IQ in the duble digits or higher provides a good argument.
Which means I will never admit defeat to you.
You fail to qualify for both points.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Be a man next tiem and just acknowledge your defeat. And will keep saying you cannot be pro chantry and pro tech at the same time. You really have to choose now.

Tell you what, how about you actually learn the contents of the classes of the university and how they clash with the Chantry before stroking your ego, yes? As far as we know, all they are arguing about is over the nature of Andraste AKA was she a mage or not, in which case it would have little to nothing to do with the technological advancement of Thedas.

Your suggestion that people can't be both scientifically and religiously minded despite there being billions of people in our world who are both is adorable. It's not like people can agree with their religious institutions on some issues and disagree on others. Nope, not at all.

Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection, but dedicated
scribes keep anatomical works from disappearing. This book allows
training that modestly increases the reader's base attributes.

The chantry is already are hampering technological advancement. And suppressing historical theory as well as labeling some chants that are inconvenient to them as dissonant verses doesnt really make them open minded. The chantry has all the problems of our own christianity. When you set things in stone, and later its revealed that the information is BS. The religious minded have a tendency to cling to the BS information no matter what.

And worse you are not willing to consider that the chantry may consider some technology to be a form of magic and will try to ban it. Some of out own scientist ended on the pyre becuase tech was considerd witchcraft.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
How very precious. You are just as idiotic as Lotion that you are not willing to admit your defeat when your arguments get debunked by lore. Here is another fine example copy pasted from the codex.

DKJaigen, I will admit defeat when someone with an IQ in the duble digits or higher provides a good argument.
Which means I will never admit defeat to you.
You fail to qualify for both points.

Hook, line and sinker. Look at all this delicious nerdrage. I already said long before this post. That you only exist to amuse me and thats why i troll crap out of you. Any sane person would have ignored me a long time ago.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 13 février 2013 - 05:08 .

[dragonflight288]

Mister JB wrote....

Certainly but fear of blood magic hampering medical research is important and you'd think noticeable or mentioned in more places.

Why would it be in more places? The game isn't about how the Chantry restricts technological advancements...well that may be part of it in Inquisition, but Origins was about stopping the Blight. It was about an exceptional individual from a wide variety of possible origins uniting the land, gathering armies, and stopping the Blight. DA2 was a rags-to-riches story. It didn't follow the Hero's Journey like Origins, Hawke wasn't constantly fighting his way to a big bad. Hawke followed the Heroine's Journey Archetype ( gamasutra.com/blogs/LaraCrigger/20120521/170722/Walking_the_Heroines_Journey_How_Dragon_Age_2_Follows_An_OldBut_Often_OverlookedStorytelling_Archetype.php)
and is a lot more of a personal story.

We the gamers don't really need more stuff pushed in our face about how the mages or the Chantry abuse the power they do have, how much the humans are racist against elves and how hostile the Dalish are. It's already present, with enough scattered about to build evidence to support an argument.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
How very precious. You are just as idiotic as Lotion that you are not willing to admit your defeat when your arguments get debunked by lore. Here is another fine example copy pasted from the codex.

DKJaigen, I will admit defeat when someone with an IQ in the duble digits or higher provides a good argument.
Which means I will never admit defeat to you.
You fail to qualify for both points.

Hook, line and sinker. Look at all this delicious nerdrage. I already said long before this post. That you only exist to amuse me and thats why i troll crap out of you. Any sane person would have ignored me a long time ago.

You throw insults left and right and call everyone disagreeing with you an idiot and then when someone calls you out you respond with "I'm only trolling you".
What a sad attempt at covering your faliure.

And belive me, if this forum had an ignore option, you would have been on it a loong, loooong time ago.

[IllusiveManJr]

I still need to do this. I'll put DA:II back on my list. Especially with a DA:III supposedly coming.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
How very precious. You are just as idiotic as Lotion that you are not willing to admit your defeat when your arguments get debunked by lore. Here is another fine example copy pasted from the codex.

DKJaigen, I will admit defeat when someone with an IQ in the duble digits or higher provides a good argument.
Which means I will never admit defeat to you.
You fail to qualify for both points.

Hook, line and sinker. Look at all this delicious nerdrage. I already said long before this post. That you only exist to amuse me and thats why i troll crap out of you. Any sane person would have ignored me a long time ago.

You throw insults left and right and call everyone disagreeing with you an idiot and then when someone calls you out you respond with "I'm only trolling you".
What a sad attempt at covering your faliure.

And belive me, if this forum had an ignore option, you would have been on it a loong, loooong time ago.

LOL! im not trolling you because i disagree with you. Im trolling you because you pull facts out of your ass , twist facts or conveniently forget facts when it suits you. And as such you poison any serious debate. Even emperor called you out on this during the whole qunuari debate.

And ignoring me is not a question of an ignore button but on willpower. And you are seriously lacking it because you cannot even follow your own advice.

[DKJaigen]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mister JB wrote....

Certainly but fear of blood magic hampering medical research is important and you'd think noticeable or mentioned in more places.

Why would it be in more places? The game isn't about how the Chantry restricts technological advancements...well that may be part of it in Inquisition, but Origins was about stopping the Blight. It was about an exceptional individual from a wide variety of possible origins uniting the land, gathering armies, and stopping the Blight. DA2 was a rags-to-riches story. It didn't follow the Hero's Journey like Origins, Hawke wasn't constantly fighting his way to a big bad. Hawke followed the Heroine's Journey Archetype ( gamasutra.com/blogs/LaraCrigger/20120521/170722/Walking_the_Heroines_Journey_How_Dragon_Age_2_Follows_An_OldBut_Often_OverlookedStorytelling_Archetype.php)
and is a lot more of a personal story.

We the gamers don't really need more stuff pushed in our face about how the mages or the Chantry abuse the power they do have, how much the humans are racist against elves and how hostile the Dalish are. It's already present, with enough scattered about to build evidence to support an argument.

Anyway world of thedas is coming out soon. That should give us more information.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...
LOL! im not trolling you because i disagree with you. Im trolling you because you pull facts out of your ass , twist facts or conveniently forget facts when it suits you. And as such you poison any serious debate.

Writing an autobiography? Sound like a spot-on self-description.

And ignoring me is not a question of an ignore button but on willpower. And you are seriously lacking it because you cannot even follow your own advice.

Far from sight, far from mind. And I'd like you far from both.

But hey...you know you could ignore me too. Not that I expect you too.

[dragonflight288]

DKJaigen wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Mister JB wrote....

Certainly but fear of blood magic hampering medical research is important and you'd think noticeable or mentioned in more places.

Why would it be in more places? The game isn't about how the Chantry restricts technological advancements...well that may be part of it in Inquisition, but Origins was about stopping the Blight. It was about an exceptional individual from a wide variety of possible origins uniting the land, gathering armies, and stopping the Blight. DA2 was a rags-to-riches story. It didn't follow the Hero's Journey like Origins, Hawke wasn't constantly fighting his way to a big bad. Hawke followed the Heroine's Journey Archetype ( gamasutra.com/blogs/LaraCrigger/20120521/170722/Walking_the_Heroines_Journey_How_Dragon_Age_2_Follows_An_OldBut_Often_OverlookedStorytelling_Archetype.php)
and is a lot more of a personal story.

We the gamers don't really need more stuff pushed in our face about how the mages or the Chantry abuse the power they do have, how much the humans are racist against elves and how hostile the Dalish are. It's already present, with enough scattered about to build evidence to support an argument.

Anyway world of thedas is coming out soon. That should give us more information.

Hopefully.

I have no problems with a friendly debate, but the virulent atmosphere of the internet at times can turn the friendliest debates into troll battles....which may actually be fun to watch were they real trolls.

That's why I try to limit my own arguments to the facts. Simple facts, and if I can gather enough of them, use them to support an argument.

[Bleachrude]

I wouldn't use the Dalish as a good example of "mages can work with non-mages"

I'm not sure why more people aren't troubled with the fact that to become the leader of a dalish tribe, you have to be a mage.

Not sure why THIS the dalish get a pass on this....

[TEWR]

Bleachrude wrote...

I wouldn't use the Dalish as a good example of "mages can work with non-mages"

I'm not sure why more people aren't troubled with the fact that to become the leader of a dalish tribe, you have to be a mage.

Not sure why THIS the dalish get a pass on this....

Because the Elves have historically had Mages ruling over them with no ill effects. Arlathan's Elves were supposedly all Mages and the Dales was ruled by a council of Mages. Neither one suffered from Mages ruling over them in terms of internal affairs. External affairs eventually saw the two nations fall, which has nothing to do with how Mages acted within the nations.

It's more custom and how they view magic -- as a gift that should truly serve the best interests of the Elves. Tevinter claims to view magic the same way, saying it should serve the best interests of the people and they feel politics best serves that end.

And while that interpretation isn't necessarily wrong, Tevinter corrupted it and used it to justify the return of the Imperium's old ways.

[Lazy Jer]

I wouldn't say NO ill effects. According to Merrill if a Dalish mage gets possessed by a demon the whole clan has to hunt and kill him or her. They might handle magic better then humans, but there are always problems with magic. That's just kinda the way it is.

[dragonflight288]

Bleachrude wrote...

I wouldn't use the Dalish as a good example of "mages can work with non-mages"

I'm not sure why more people aren't troubled with the fact that to become the leader of a dalish tribe, you have to be a mage.

Not sure why THIS the dalish get a pass on this....

What Etheral said, but I'd like to add on something more.

The Dalish aren't truly ruled by mages either. The Keeper advices them, and trains the First. And while it's true that the Keeper ususally has the last word on matters, in the Dalish origin we see there are a group of Elders who hold considerable inflluence, as Mahariel's father was a Keeper, but didn't have permission to bond with Mahariel's mother from the elder's, and so they did it behind everyone's backs. If a Keeper has to sneak around to marry someone (like many teenagers from bad romance novels ) then I think it's very safe to say that Keeper's don't hold absolute power or sway in a clan.

Also, we have seen many examples of Dalish elves leaving their clans for some reason or another, and they are never stopped. Zevran's mother was dalish who fell in love with a wood cutter, before getting abandoned and joined a brothel. Fenriel's mother was Dalish, but she left them without much fuss to raise her half-elven child. Merrill left without much fuss because she wanted to study the Eluvian...even if Merrill had more troubles from Merethari trying to get Merrill back than she had from leaving.

And I would like to quote Merrill's line to Fenriel when encouraging him to go to the Dalish.

Merrill: It is your humanity that will mark you, not your magic. But I think they will accept you.

Then we can discuss with Lanaya in Origins how she became Zathrian's first, and she mentions she had to compete with other members of the clan. And if we side with the werewolves we get attacked by more than two mages. Through this, we know that while the Keeper and the First are very important mages in the clan, they aren't the only mages. But I have never, in two games, seen any evidence that the Dalish hunters had any problems with the mages who weren't Keeper or First. So I think it's safe to say that the mages and non-mages in the Dalish clans live side-by-side in peace.

So yes, I think the Dalish are a perfect example of mages being able to work with non-mages and vice-versa.

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

I wouldn't say NO ill effects. According to Merrill if a Dalish mage gets possessed by a demon the whole clan has to hunt and kill him or her. They might handle magic better then humans, but there are always problems with magic. That's just kinda the way it is.

True. But I suppose that's why not one reasonable mage-supporter has ever called for unregulated magic.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 05 mars 2013 - 02:50 .

[MisterJB]

*sigh*Here we go again...

dragonflight288 wrote...
So yes, I think the Dalish are a perfect example of mages being able to work with non-mages and vice-versa.

No, they're just another example of a society where mages are free and where mages are the supreme authority.
While there are non-mages in position of authority; by your own admission, it's the Keepers, who must always be mages, that hold the final say in all matters. The Warden's mother belonged to a different clan hence why she had to sneak around. Had it been the elders of his father's clan who disaproved, he could have just told them to shut up because he was a Keeper.

It's true that the Dalish's sense of community usually prevents Keepers from abusing their power; the key word being usually, Zathrian and Marethari are examples of two Keepers who knowingly placed their needs above that of the clan; but that doesn't change the fact that the dalish are a mage supremacist authoritarian society.

[MisterJB]

Lazy Jer wrote...

I wouldn't say NO ill effects. According to Merrill if a Dalish mage gets possessed by a demon the whole clan has to hunt and kill him or her. They might handle magic better then humans, but there are always problems with magic. That's just kinda the way it is.

The Dalish don't handle magic. Magic handles the Dalish.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

*sigh*Here we go again...

dragonflight288 wrote...
So yes, I think the Dalish are a perfect example of mages being able to work with non-mages and vice-versa.

No, they're just another example of a society where mages are free and where mages are the supreme authority.
While there are non-mages in position of authority; by your own admission, it's the Keepers, who must always be mages, that hold the final say in all matters. The Warden's mother belonged to a different clan hence why she had to sneak around. Had it been the elders of his father's clan who disaproved, he could have just told them to shut up because he was a Keeper.

It's true that the Dalish's sense of community usually prevents Keepers from abusing their power; the key word being usually, Zathrian and Marethari are examples of two Keepers who knowingly placed their needs above that of the clan; but that doesn't change the fact that the dalish are a mage supremacist authoritarian society.

I agree with Merethari and I think Zathrian can only technically be qualified to fit into that.

Zathrian was working very hard to save his clan members who had been infected. He had guided his clan for three centuries and the Dalish trusted him. I saw no evidence that he abused his authority over the Dalish themselves. What he is guilty of, is letting his grief and his anger consume him and he let his hatred of the guilty affect entire generations, believing the werewolves to be just as guilty as their ancestors of the crime, as their bestial nature compelled them to be....bestial. He is guilty of being willing to condemn whole generations to suffering for the crimes of their ancestors, and his pain keeps him from seeing them as different beings.

Zathrian does go out of his way to try to save his own people while also keeping the werewolves condemned as beasts. His only true abuse of power, and placing his needs above the needs of his clan, was his desire to let his vengeance continue onward forever, and how he used a powerful blood magic ritual to bind the spirit of the forest into witherfang.

That doesn't come close to explaining how mages and non-mages can't live together and work together. It's just the story of a man who suffered a mighty family tragedy, who happened to be a mage, let his grief go too far.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

I wouldn't say NO ill effects. According to Merrill if a Dalish mage gets possessed by a demon the whole clan has to hunt and kill him or her. They might handle magic better then humans, but there are always problems with magic. That's just kinda the way it is.

The Dalish don't handle magic. Magic handles the Dalish.

Magic has a will of its own? May magic be with you, if you're a jedi. May magic make you strong if you're a sith.

Joking aside, is there evidence of this?

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
His only true abuse of power, and placing his needs above the needs of his clan, was his desire to let his vengeance continue onward forever,

Which is what I meant. Arguably, Zathrian could have slammed his staff on the ground at any moment and cured his clanmates.

That doesn't come close to explaining how mages and non-mages can't live together and work together. It's just the story of a man who suffered a mighty family tragedy, who happened to be a mage, let his grief go too far.

Zathrian did not simply " happen to be a mage". This curse only existed because Zathrian was a mage.

But that's not the point. The point is that the Dalish are a mage supremacist society. Mages and non mage dalish elves live together, certainly, but I won't accept it as a good example due to its mage supremacist characteristics.

dragonflight288 wrote...
Joking aside, is there evidence of this?

When people say "handling magic" I think of regulations and special laws and such.
If
magic is a determinant factor when choosing a leader, I'd say that,
methaporically of course, you are being handled by magic rather than
handling it.

[dragonflight288]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
His only true abuse of power, and placing his needs above the needs of his clan, was his desire to let his vengeance continue onward forever, [/quote]
Which is what I meant. Arguably, Zathrian could have slammed his staff on the ground at any moment and cured his clanmates.[/quote]

And that is true. He was letting his grief go too far and he wanted to help his people while simaltaeously continue punishing the descendents of those guilty of destroying his family.

[quote][quote]That doesn't come close to explaining how mages and non-mages can't live together and work together. It's just the story of a man who suffered a mighty family tragedy, who happened to be a mage, let his grief go too far.
[/quote]
Zathrian did not simply " happen to be a mage". This curse only existed because Zathrian was a mage.[/quote]

He's a man who let his grief get the better of him. A man who happened to be a mage, and as a mage, used his power to the detriment of others, and it ultimately started affecting his own clan. You don't have to be a mage to do something very rash in your grief and have your actions affect not only those you seek to punish, but end up hurting those closest to you as well.

On a side note, I'm not defending Zathrian. The man is guilty for a lot of the suffering that happened. But it wasn't mage supremecy that caused it. It wasn't a mindset that he could punish the guilty and their descendencts because he was a mage. It was the result of a man, who had the tools that magic offered him, and used them in a grief-filled vengeance.

[quote]But that's not the point. The point is that the Dalish are a mage supremacist society. Mages and non mage dalish elves live together, certainly, but I won't accept it as a good example due to its mage supremacist characteristics.[/quote]

that's not mage supremecist characteristics. It's the characteristics of a man who is in ever-pain after losing his entire family to the worst of the worst, and then refusing to acknowledge their descendents aren't the same people.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
Joking aside, is there evidence of this?
[/quote]
When people say "handling magic" I think of regulations and special laws and such.
If
magic is a determinant factor when choosing a leader, I'd say that,
methaporically of course, you are being handled by magic rather than
handling it.[/quote]

Okay, fair enough. But the Dalish have their own handling of magic as well. Their rules and regulations differ from the Chantry's by a lot, as they don't let their religion guide how they view magic. The chantry categorizes demons into different sins, but they kind of ignore spirits, calling them benevolent when most simply don't care about mortals in any way, and if they do feel emotion about mortals, it's pity. The Dalish believe the Fade is another place, filled with individuals and that every spirit is dangerous.

While Merrill does say abominations do happen and the clan need to kill them when they pop up, she also says it doesn't happen often, which is what the circle also teaches. It's the chantry that says every apostate is a maleficar or abomination-waiting-to-happen.

And the Dalish were able to teach Fenriel how to control his powers as a mage for the most part. They simply couldn't offer all the help he needed as he was a somniari and most don't survive because of their strong connection to the Fade. I personally believe that the Dalish do train to control their magic (Merrill says that rather than hunting, she studied history and magic) but they follow different tradtitions than Andrastian Circles do.



[/quote]

[Bleachrude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

I wouldn't use the Dalish as a good example of "mages can work with non-mages"

I'm not sure why more people aren't troubled with the fact that to become the leader of a dalish tribe, you have to be a mage.

Not sure why THIS the dalish get a pass on this....

Because the Elves have historically had Mages ruling over them with no ill effects. Arlathan's Elves were supposedly all Mages and the Dales was ruled by a council of Mages. Neither one suffered from Mages ruling over them in terms of internal affairs. External affairs eventually saw the two nations fall, which has nothing to do with how Mages acted within the nations.

It's more custom and how they view magic -- as a gift that should truly serve the best interests of the Elves. Tevinter claims to view magic the same way, saying it should serve the best interests of the people and they feel politics best serves that end.

And while that interpretation isn't necessarily wrong, Tevinter corrupted it and used it to justify the return of the Imperium's old ways.

And if you believe that a non-mage should be the leader of a community...What then?

Arlathan is a bad example since as you point out, everyone was a mage, thus you can discount it as an example of mages and non-mages working together.

So basically, what you're saying, "just because someone's a mage, they deserve to be leader?"

How is this any different from how Chantry sees mages?