587 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

MisterJB wrote...
What bigotry is there in not wanting people who have more than one voice in their heads to walk around wearing explosive belts?
These women are allowing themselves to be possessed. Am I the only one seeing the issue here?
They don't need to be possessed, they are not born possessed, there is absolutely no reason they should be possessed!
Is it really so much of an infringment of personal freedom to ask mages to NOT be possessed?
Seriously! What kind of regulations should we have in place if we can't even ask mages to not be possessed without someone complaining?

We should all calmly line up, cover ourseves in mustard and wait in case our Fade overlords get munchies.
That or slit our wrists so blood mages can impress their guests.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Tripped over the hem of your own robe? A mage probably did it! Annul the Circle!

The mages are extremely valuable natural resources. The Chantry has a vented interest in keeping them alive, not killing them for meaningless reasons.

Plaintiff wrote...
Because for some people, even a minor increase in personal safety is worth any amount of tyranny and bigotry.

What bigotry is there in not wanting people who have more than one voice in their heads to walk around wearing explosive belts?
These women are allowing themselves to be possessed. Am I the only one seeing the issue here?
They don't need to be possessed, they are not born possessed, there is absolutely no reason they should be possessed!
Is it really so much of an infringment of personal freedom to ask mages to NOT be possessed?
Seriously! What kind of regulations should we have in place if we can't even ask mages to not be possessed without someone complaining?

We dont know the benefits so we cant judge this at all.

[Lazy Jer]

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Tripped over the hem of your own robe? A mage probably did it! Annul the Circle!

The mages are extremely valuable natural resources. The Chantry has a vented interest in keeping them alive, not killing them for meaningless reasons.

That was an extreme example meant to illustrate a point.  Namely that there may not be enough oversight on what is considered "irredeemable" when the decision to annul a circle is made.  Suppose, for instance, that Elthina was as overzealous as Meredith, or particularly corrupt.  They might have had the ability to annul the circle before Hawke and Co. even get to Kirkwall over some fabricated reason or a case of possession that got blown out of proportion.  If there's not set of guidelines to determine what is considered irredeemable then there's too much opportunity for abuse of the Rite of Annulment.  And given that it calls for the extermination of everyone in the circle that can't be allowed to stand. 

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Tripped over the hem of your own robe? A mage probably did it! Annul the Circle!

The mages are extremely valuable natural resources. The Chantry has a vented interest in keeping them alive, not killing them for meaningless reasons.

That was an extreme example meant to illustrate a point.  Namely that there may not be enough oversight on what is considered "irredeemable" when the decision to annul a circle is made.  Suppose, for instance, that Elthina was as overzealous as Meredith, or particularly corrupt.  They might have had the ability to annul the circle before Hawke and Co. even get to Kirkwall over some fabricated reason or a case of possession that got blown out of proportion.  If there's not set of guidelines to determine what is considered irredeemable then there's too much opportunity for abuse of the Rite of Annulment.  And given that it calls for the extermination of everyone in the circle that can't be allowed to stand. 

I would also add that we hear from several sources in both games that the Chantry doesn't see mages as valuable resources. Rather, they only barely tolerate magic.

Duncan mentions this in the mage origin. The Grand Cleric outright shoots down Uldred's idea before he can voice it in regards to using the Tower of Ishal or not because he's a mage, the Revered Mother in Redcliff tells an Amell warden that the Chantry sometimes raises lynch mobs against mages, and Wynn says that the fear of magic leads entire villages blaming mage children if discovered for when things go wrong and often results in the death of the child.

Cullen says templars have rule over mages by divine right, but I bet you won't find that anywhere in the Chant of Light because emplars didn't exist when Andraste lived. The order hadn't been founded until after the Chantry was founded. The templar codex mentions that the Chantry generally tries to recruit templars from the devout members, but what we see are plenty of examples of religious zealots who hate magic for the sake of hating magic, and are unable to separate the mage from the magic they can use. Alrik suggested tranquilizing every mage as a solution to the mage problem, and there's no way Meredith didn't know that illegal tranquilizations were going on in Kirkwall. The only way it could've been done legally was if she and Orsino both approved it. But he continued doing it anyway, but he simply couldn't do it in the open. Although his tranquil solution was denied, he still wasn't investigated as he should've been by his superiors.

The Chantry isn't a charitable organization concerned for the welfare of thedas's souls. They believe that they need to spread the chant of light to all four corners of the world (thereby increasing chantry influence) and are willing to do whatever is necessary to do that, even if it means exalted marching everyone who disagress with them. We see this in Rivain when the Chantry decided to kill all the Rivaini's who refused to convert to the Chantry. They called an Exalted March on the peaceful Qunari (not Kossith) in Rivain, and slaughtered them in such numbers that the veil was sundered and then proceeded to deny doing it.

They simply don't see mages as valuable resources. They only see danger and tend to treat all mages with the same brush, and punish them collectively for crimes most of them never committed.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I would also add that we hear from several sources in both games that the Chantry doesn't see mages as valuable resources. Rather, they only barely tolerate magic.

They tolerate magic only because it's useful. We see it being used in daily life in Asunder and the mage who attempted to assassinate the Divine complains that this is something they are told frequently. It's in the very Chant "Magic must serve man."
Sure, there are short sigthed idiots like Alrik but the true brains behind the Chantry can clearly see how mages are weapons and killing them for meaningless reasons would leave Southern Thedas in an weakened military position.
Why do you think they are kept alive? Human compassion? There is little of it to go around.

The Chantry isn't a charitable organization concerned for the welfare of thedas's souls. They believe that they need to spread the chant of light to all four corners of the world (thereby increasing chantry influence) and are willing to do whatever is necessary to do that, even if it means exalted marching everyone who disagress with them. We see this in Rivain when the Chantry decided to kill all the Rivaini's who refused to convert to the Chantry. They called an Exalted March on the peaceful Qunari (not Kossith) in Rivain, and slaughtered them in such numbers that the veil was sundered and then proceeded to deny doing it.

They simply don't see mages as valuable resources. They only see danger and tend to treat all mages with the same brush, and punish them collectively for crimes most of them never committed.

Sure it is. Even Anders admits the Chantry does many good deeds and he wants to overthrow it. The Chantry is not perfect but, ultimately, it is far from the power hungry monster people portray it to be.
Those converts you mentioned? The Lloymerrian accords clearly dictated that all qunari were to retreat to Par-Vollen and to stay there. North or South, Rivain is not Par-Vollen and thus, the converts broke the terms of the agreement first. Do you think qunari would have allowed Andrasteans to live in Par-Vollen without converting or enslaving them?
While I would have prefered deportation, it is obvious the converts could not remain in Rivain under any cirscunstances. The first second the Antaam appeared at the gates, they would have joined them.

If the Chantry saw only danger in mages, they would kill them all at birth. But it's obvious they can be useful.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 mars 2013 - 01:48 .

[dragonflight288]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
I would also add that we hear from several sources in both games that the Chantry doesn't see mages as valuable resources. Rather, they only barely tolerate magic. [/quote]
They tolerate magic only because it's useful. We see it being used in daily life in Asunder and the mage who attempted to assassinate the Divine complains that this is something they are told frequently. It's in the very Chant "Magic must serve man."
Sure, there are short sigthed idiots like Alrik but the true brains behind the Chantry can clearly see how mages are weapons and killing them for meaningless reasons would leave Southern Thedas in an weakened military position.
Why do you think they are kept alive? Human compassion? There is little of it to go around.[/quote]

They are kept alive because mages might be useful at some point, but Lambert and Meredith both prove by their attitudes and who they choose to promote, that many members of the Chantry simply don't care about mages and would prefer if there were none at all. Whether they be killed or tranquilized, it doesn't matter. High ranking members of the Chantry want the mages gone.

And if the mages were so valuable to the Chantry, it hardly is a smart thing to keep them in genocidal conditions (using modern definitions of genocide doesn't always mean wiping them out, but also involves segregation, creating an 'us-or-them' mindset, and removing basic human rights.

And when mages are needed, the Chantry is extremely reluctant to use them. At Ostagar, Gregoire was complaining that they had sent seven mages to the battle, and thought seven was too many mages, which is kind of stupid considering the King was calling for an army to push back the darkspawn. And the Grand Cleric didn't want to listen to Uldred at all at the strategy meeting, and shut him up simply because he was a mage.

The may keep mages alive, but they don't treat them as people or with any kind of dignity, and when mages are needed, the Chantry remains reluctant to use them.

[quote][quote]
The Chantry isn't a charitable organization concerned for the welfare of thedas's souls. They believe that they need to spread the chant of light to all four corners of the world (thereby increasing chantry influence) and are willing to do whatever is necessary to do that, even if it means exalted marching everyone who disagress with them. We see this in Rivain when the Chantry decided to kill all the Rivaini's who refused to convert to the Chantry. They called an Exalted March on the peaceful Qunari (not Kossith) in Rivain, and slaughtered them in such numbers that the veil was sundered and then proceeded to deny doing it.

They simply don't see mages as valuable resources. They only see danger and tend to treat all mages with the same brush, and punish them collectively for crimes most of them never committed.
[/quote]
Sure it is. Even Anders admits the Chantry does many good deeds and he wants to overthrow it. The Chantry is not perfect but, ultimately, it is far from the power hungry monster people portray it to be.
Those converts you mentioned? The Lloymerrian accords clearly dictated that all qunari were to retreat to Par-Vollen and to stay there. North or South, Rivain is not Par-Vollen and thus, the converts broke the terms of the agreement first. Do you think qunari would have allowed Andrasteans to live in Par-Vollen without converting or enslaving them?
While I would have prefered deportation, it is obvious the converts could not remain in Rivain under any cirscunstances. The first second the Antaam appeared at the gates, they would have joined them.

If the Chantry saw only danger in mages, they would kill them all at birth. But it's obvious they can be useful.

[/quote][/quote]

And the Chantry broke their end of the treaty just as well. Both sides broke the Lloymerrian accords. But all the Qunari did was refuse to leave the land of their birth, whereas the Chantry responded to that with mass slaughter.

And I think the Qunari remaining in Rivian would've left things alone. They aren't part of the military arm under the Arishok. They aren't under the Arishok so it wasn't their role. The qunari devote themselves to a single role for their whole lives. If those Rivaini weren't given the role of spreading the Qun, then they simply wouldn't.

That's the nice thing about Qunari, you know exactly where they stand at all times. If they were hostile, everyone would know it.

I don't deny the Chantry does good in the world. But that doesn't make up for all the bad that they do. Were it only one or two templars or priests in isolated areas, then the organization itself wouldn't be considered corrupt. It would only be stupid individuals. But when we have several high ranking members throughout the Chantry, spread across three countries, all of them are important and may be close to the Divine, and we see more examples of the Chantry being corrupt, from the Revered Mother of Lothering extorting money from people by refusing to bless people UNLESS they tithe to the abuses of the templars throughout the Circles, to even the Seeker's ignoring their duty of monitoring templars so they can play templar and watch mages instead, under orders from the Lord High Seeker, or even Maric and Loghain coming very close to kicking the Chantry out of Ferelden because it's considered an Orlesian organization and is tied too closely to Orlesian politics, then it becomes an organizational problem.

And yes, magic exists to serve man. Show me where in that verse it says 'mages exist to be locked up, raped and abused until they are conveniently needed,' or 'templars have power over mages by divine right' or anything similar. You won't find the word 'templar' in the Chant of Light because the templars didn't exist until after the Chantry did, and the Chantry didn't rise until a century after Andraste died. Their interpretation of the Chant of Light is likely skewed to be what they want it to be, and now what Andraste may have actually meant. Especially since there's enough evidence to make a compelling argument that Andraste may have been a mage as well.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
They are kept alive because mages might be useful at some point, but Lambert and Meredith both prove by their attitudes and who they choose to promote, that many members of the Chantry simply don't care about mages and would prefer if there were none at all. Whether they be killed or tranquilized, it doesn't matter. High ranking members of the Chantry want the mages gone.

And if the mages were so valuable to the Chantry, it hardly is a smart thing to keep them in genocidal conditions (using modern definitions of genocide doesn't always mean wiping them out, but also involves segregation, creating an 'us-or-them' mindset, and removing basic human rights.

And when mages are needed, the Chantry is extremely reluctant to use them. At Ostagar, Gregoire was complaining that they had sent seven mages to the battle, and thought seven was too many mages, which is kind of stupid considering the King was calling for an army to push back the darkspawn. And the Grand Cleric didn't want to listen to Uldred at all at the strategy meeting, and shut him up simply because he was a mage.

The may keep mages alive, but they don't treat them as people or with any kind of dignity, and when mages are needed, the Chantry remains reluctant to use them.

The Chantry is far more merciful to the mages than practicality requires. Were humans not emotional creatures, we would have done to our mages what the qunari do to theirs. Their mages mantain usefulness while completely eliminating the risk of possession or rebellion.
Instead, mages are granted privileges that very few outside of nobility can afford. When was the last time you saw an illiterate mage? Or a mage who had to worry about feeding those he cares about? Or a mage concerned with bandit or darkspawn attacks?

The Chantry has granted many and more concessions to mages but if what you want if for mundanes to be glad people who can kill them with their minds exist, you'll have to wait for some time.

And the Chantry broke their end of the treaty just as well. Both sides broke the Lloymerrian accords. But all the Qunari did was refuse to leave the land of their birth, whereas the Chantry responded to that with mass slaughter.

Since the qunari never left, the war never, oficially, ended. And since the qunari attack civillian targets as well, the Andrasteans have the right to do the same.

And I think the Qunari remaining in Rivian would've left things alone. They aren't part of the military arm under the Arishok. They aren't under the Arishok so it wasn't their role. The qunari devote themselves to a single role for their whole lives. If those Rivaini weren't given the role of spreading the Qun, then they simply wouldn't.

That's the nice thing about Qunari, you know exactly where they stand at all times. If they were hostile, everyone would know it.

The qunari are hostile 100% of the time. Even Sten, who is helping defeat the Blight, makes no secret of the fact his people will attack again as soon as they are ready.

from the Revered Mother of Lothering extorting money from people by refusing to bless people UNLESS they tithe to the abuses of the templars throughout the Circles,

Did you miss the part where she has a town overflowing with refuges to take care of? Or the part where after the Ban abandoned Lothering, the Priests and Templars stayed behind to evacuate the population?
C'mon, you're smarter and fairer than this.

to even the Seeker's ignoring their duty of monitoring templars so they can play templar and watch mages instead, under orders from the Lord High Seeker,

The job of the Seekers is not just to watch for signs of corruption from the templars but also to act if they fail. The templars in Orlais had failed to aprhend the person murdering mages so, the Seekers were called.
They were protecting the mages.

or even Maric and Loghain coming very close to kicking the Chantry out of Ferelden because it's considered an Orlesian organization and is tied too closely to Orlesian politics, then it becomes an organizational problem.

I'll just repost what I said previously about this
I will not attempt to deny that the Chantry will show a certain bias
towards Orlais in most situations; Val-Royeaux is also the seat of the
Chantry, after all. However, is this partnership worthy of the amount of
disdain shown? For instance, the KC before Meredith was assassinated by
the previous Viscount before Dumar because he was overcharging orlesian
trading ships and the Divine Beatrix used the KC to pressure the
Viscount into...well, quitting it. Admitadelly, this shows an orlesian
bias.
Another frequently used example if the occupation of Ferelden.
There are rumors that the Chantry intended to name the Dragon Age, the
Sun Age in support of Orlais which is possible but still, only rumors.
What
we do know for a fact is that the Grand Cleric of Denerim for years
opposed the rebellion. However, we have acess to her POV. We know she
did this in an attempt to safeguard the fereldan population from
Meghren's excesses. Basically, don't struggle and he won't hurt you as
much. It's not exactly convincing advice; and she eventually came to
realize this and support the rebellion; but it was still made with the
protection of Ferelden in mind, not of Orlais.
And...I believe that
is it. There were a few mages sent; three out of hundreds that could
have been sent; but not a single templar. The simple truth that Loghain
wished for the Chantry to be expelled from the country doesn't prove it
has done things that would merit the punishment. Loghain would have not
understood or even cared to understand the fine subtletities behid the
Grand Cleric of Denerim's opposition of the rebellion.
It is entirely
possible I overlook some detail. But, if not, I think I cans afely say
that while there is a certain orlesian bias in the actions of the
Divine; they are hardly an evil empire conspiring together to conquer
the world.

And yes, magic exists to serve man. Show me where in that verse it says 'mages exist to be locked up, raped and abused until they are conveniently needed,' or 'templars have power over mages by divine right' or anything similar. You won't find the word 'templar' in the Chant of Light because the templars didn't exist until after the Chantry did, and the Chantry didn't rise until a century after Andraste died. Their interpretation of the Chant of Light is likely skewed to be what they want it to be, and now what Andraste may have actually meant. Especially since there's enough evidence to make a compelling argument that Andraste may have been a mage as well.

Just saying "Magic exists to serve man" doesn't mean much unless there are regulations in place to ensure magic is, in fact, serving man and not ruling over him.

[TEWR]

Instead, mages are granted privileges that very few outside of nobility can afford. When was the last time you saw an illiterate mage?

The games showcase how Thedas' common folk aren't illiterate, despite what the books might try to say.

Or a mage who had to worry about feeding those he cares about?

That's how the Circle operates. The Circle earns the coin needed to sustain itself -- food, clothing, maintenance, lyrium -- and not the Chantry. Unless you think the Chantry manages to garner enough coin by way of donations from the people of Thedas when the Tranquil in Ostagar says that the Circle sustains itself.

Or a mage concerned with bandit or darkspawn attacks?

A valid point. Though one could note that Kirkwall does face bandit attacks. Attacks from the very people that are supposed to protect Mages.

And if it can happen in one Circle, those events could happen in the other Circles.

Did you miss the part where she has a town overflowing with refuges to take care of? Or the part where after the Ban abandoned Lothering, the Priests and Templars stayed behind to evacuate the population?
C'mon, you're smarter and fairer than this.

She'll refuse to bless the group even if they say they don't have enough coin. Doesn't help that if you do get enough coin later on before Lothering falls, you can't say "Here Mother, I managed to scrape together more coin."

What she's doing is noble. How she's going about doing it, however, is questionable. I don't think refusing to bless someone because they're broke is really how the priests should act. Saying "Very well. If you acquire more coin and feel charitable, these gentle souls would appreciate it. Maker's blessing be upon you always." would be better.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 mars 2013 - 03:07 .

[dragonflight288]

The Chantry is far more merciful to the mages than practicality requires. Were humans not emotional creatures, we would have done to our mages what the qunari do to theirs. Their mages mantain usefulness while completely eliminating the risk of possession or rebellion.
Instead, mages are granted privileges that very few outside of nobility can afford. When was the last time you saw an illiterate mage? Or a mage who had to worry about feeding those he cares about? Or a mage concerned with bandit or darkspawn attacks?

The Chantry has granted many and more concessions to mages but if what you want if for mundanes to be glad people who can kill them with their minds exist, you'll have to wait for some time.

I may not have seen any illiterate mages but I have also not seen any illiterate peasants either.

And mages would be more useful if we had more healers helping people. A mage can help the most people in the slums like Anders does for years for free, and he won the people's loyalty so that the mundanes are willing to fight and kill Hawke for asking questions about Anders because Anders helps them. We have also seen through the mages collective that mages are capable of policing themselves and making problems go away before the Chantry ever had to get involved. Mages are a lot more useful outside of a Circle when they are trained and know what they're doing.

Since the qunari never left, the war never, oficially, ended. And since the qunari attack civillian targets as well, the Andrasteans have the right to do the same.

Alistair and Sten banter about how a treaty had been signed, and while Sten says that it's just a piece of paper and it will be broken eventually, it hadn't been broken since it was signed. And there's no reports whatsoever that the Qunari of Rivain were attacking anyone. What we do know is that the Qunari who lived there and refused to leave were those who were born there and simply didn't want to leave their homeland, and we know that any who follow the Qun are called qunari, and it's not a species.

And are you seriously defending genocide and mass slaughter of civilians to such a degree that the veil is sundered?

The qunari are hostile 100% of the time. Even Sten, who is helping defeat the Blight, makes no secret of the fact his people will attack again as soon as they are ready.

To quote Viscount Dumar, if they wanted to conquer the city, they simply would. If the Qunari aren't attacking, it means they have no reason to be hostile at that moment. Sten says that the Qunari will attack again in the future, and Fenris says that the Qunari only want Seheron, and that if they wanted Tevinter, there would be little to stop them from simply taking it.

What is clear, is that when the Qunari plan to attack, they simply will. Until that happens, the qunari aren't hostile.

The job of the Seekers is not just to watch for signs of corruption from the templars but also to act if they fail. The templars in Orlais had failed to aprhend the person murdering mages so, the Seekers were called.
They were protecting the mages.

And yet Lambert wanted to kill the mages and went behind the Divine's back and ordered an illegal attack at a meeting where the mages had every legal right, and permission from the Divine, to be at and they were the ones tasked with investigating Rhys. Lambert is the one who resorted to cold-blood attempted murder to try and cover up the fact that tranquility is now curable, and is the one who declares the Nevarran Accord to be void only after he's the one who broke it by trying to kill all the First Enchanters while they were at a legal meeting and were still part of the Chantry.

Yup, that sounds like he's was working overtime to protect he mages.

Just saying "Magic exists to serve man" doesn't mean much unless there are regulations in place to ensure magic is, in fact, serving man and not ruling over him.

It doesn't mean locking every mage up, telling them that they're cursed for existing to such a degree that some mages like Keili honestly want the templars to kill them, or Bethany who genuinely feel that Andraste taught that mages should belong in Circles, when the circle system didn't rise until 200-300 years after her death. Nor does it justify taking away a mages children as chantry property and requiring mages to get very special permission to marry. It also doesn't mean that templars have authority over mages by divine right.

Yet that's what the Chantry teaches and genuinely believes.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 16 mars 2013 - 06:27 .

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
I may not have seen any illiterate mages but I have also not seen any illiterate peasants either.

Asunder flat out states that most peasants in Orlais can't read and that this is a reality mages don't have to deal with. and that is the most advanced country in Thedas with an university.

And mages would be more useful if we had more healers helping people. A mage can help the most people in the slums like Anders does for years for free, and he won the people's loyalty so that the mundanes are willing to fight and kill Hawke for asking questions about Anders because Anders helps them. We have also seen through the mages collective that mages are capable of policing themselves and making problems go away before the Chantry ever had to get involved. Mages are a lot more useful outside of a Circle when they are trained and know what they're doing.

Mages can be taken outside of a Circle, escorted by templars, to perform their duties and then be returned when they are done. This doesn't require freedom.
I don't trust the Collective one bit. Asking the Scrolls of Banastor; warning supposedly "innocent" mages with blood; killing a group of people are going to deliver "false" testimony; bribing the templars with lyrium. I don't believe any of it.
Any policing effort is done only because the templars exist and they don't want their own misdeeds to catch their attention.

Alistair and Sten banter about how a treaty had been signed, and while Sten says that it's just a piece of paper and it will be broken eventually, it hadn't been broken since it was signed. And there's no reports whatsoever that the Qunari of Rivain were attacking anyone. What we do know is that the Qunari who lived there and refused to leave were those who were born there and simply didn't want to leave their homeland, and we know that any who follow the Qun are called qunari, and it's not a species.

And are you seriously defending genocide and mass slaughter of civilians to such a degree that the veil is sundered?

What I defend is that the qunari act in accordance to the treaty their leaders signed. A treaty that dictated no qunari are permitted to remain in mainlad Thedas. So, those rivaini qunari either left or stopped being qunari.
If they do not wish to do neither, then there is only one solution.

To quote Viscount Dumar, if they wanted to conquer the city, they simply would. If the Qunari aren't attacking, it means they have no reason to be hostile at that moment. Sten says that the Qunari will attack again in the future, and Fenris says that the Qunari only want Seheron, and that if they wanted Tevinter, there would be little to stop them from simply taking it.

What is clear, is that when the Qunari plan to attack, they simply will. Until that happens, the qunari aren't hostile.

What is also clear is that the Qun demands that all Baas be either converted or enslaved. Living with qunari is like having a knife on your back waiting for the order to fall to be given. It might not happen today or tomorrow or even in the next century but it is indisputable that it will happen. There is no peace to be made with qunari, only truces.

For the record, I don't believe the Qun is vile but I do understand it demands that all qunari be hostile to all baas 100% of the time.

And yet Lambert wanted to kill the mages and went behind the Divine's back and ordered an illegal attack at a meeting where the mages had every legal right, and permission from the Divine, to be at and they were the ones tasked with investigating Rhys. Lambert is the one who resorted to cold-blood attempted murder to try and cover up the fact that tranquility is now curable, and is the one who declares the Nevarran Accord to be void only after he's the one who broke it by trying to kill all the First Enchanters while they were at a legal meeting and were still part of the Chantry.

Yup, that sounds like he's was working overtime to protect he mages.

We're already discussing this in the other thread so, let's repeat ourselves here, shall we?

It doesn't mean locking every mage up, telling them that they're cursed for existing to such a degree that some mages like Keili honestly want the templars to kill them, or Bethany who genuinely feel that Andraste taught that mages should belong in Circles, when the circle system didn't rise until 200-300 years after her death. Nor does it justify taking away a mages children as chantry property and requiring mages to get very special permission to marry. It also doesn't mean that templars have authority over mages by divine right.

Yet that's what the Chantry teaches and genuinely believes.

The Chantry is right. I don't believe their methods or mentality are perfect but it's true that all mages must be locked up at all times to ensure the safety and freedom of all mundanes and the existence of their civilization.

[dragonflight288]

Asunder flat out states that most peasants in Orlais can't read and that this is a reality mages don't have to deal with. and that is the most advanced country in Thedas with an university.

And we've been in Ferelden and Kirkwall. We only went to Orlais in-game because Hawke was invited to join a hunt. That's not Orlais, the land of the downtrodden elves who are made sex-slaves or peasant girls who can be legally raped by Chevalier as part of a Chevalier's rights.

Mages can be taken outside of a Circle, escorted by templars, to perform their duties and then be returned when they are done. This doesn't require freedom.
I don't trust the Collective one bit. Asking the Scrolls of Banastor; warning supposedly "innocent" mages with blood; killing a group of people are going to deliver "false" testimony; bribing the templars with lyrium. I don't believe any of it.
Any policing effort is done only because the templars exist and they don't want their own misdeeds to catch their attention.

To the first point, do you support locking up people in isolated areas in large numbers, and only allowing to leave the area with an armed escort who can legally and freely kill them and make up a story about it and not be investigated over it? I base that off of Aneirin who was called maleficar and run through by the templars, but he most certainly was no blood mage when we do meet him, he's probably one of the most peaceful people there are, and he was only 14 years old when he escaped the circle.

To your point on not trusting the collective, that's entirely up to you. I can see where you're coming from on the trust issues, especially with the scrolls of Banastor. But they do deal with abominations and they did work with templars. But I don't trust the templar order to treat mages with respect or dignity, and the templar order (and Seekers) have proven over time that they can be just as bad as a rogue blood mage. The level of abuse the templars are allowed to get away with is atrocious, and if you drive a mage to desperation, when the mage lashes out illogically in a desperate act, that desperate act is then used as justification for treating the mage so harshly in the first place....makes no logical or moral sense. When a mage is driven to despair and desperation, a mage who would never have done it if it weren't for the actions of those treating them like dirt, then while the mage shares some of the blame, most would lie on the heads of those who drove them to that point in the first place.

That's why I argue for mages and templars working together toward a common goal of keeping people safe. Thrask proved mages and templars can work together towards a common goal in his quest to depose Meredith, so I know it's entirely possible to get mages and templars to work together.

What I defend is that the qunari act in accordance to the treaty their leaders signed. A treaty that dictated no qunari are permitted to remain in mainlad Thedas. So, those rivaini qunari either left or stopped being qunari.
If they do not wish to do neither, then there is only one solution.

Mass murder, sundering the veil so demons can come through without assistance from mages, and then denying it. Yup. Perfect solution.

What is also clear is that the Qun demands that all Baas be either converted or enslaved. Living with qunari is like having a knife on your back waiting for the order to fall to be given. It might not happen today or tomorrow or even in the next century but it is indisputable that it will happen. There is no peace to be made with qunari, only truces.

For the record, I don't believe the Qun is vile but I do understand it demands that all qunari be hostile to all baas 100% of the time.

As you say Kadaan...oh, wait. My mage warden was called Kadaan by Sten and treated with a great deal of friendship and respect. Sten would eventually have to come back as part of an invasion, but he genuinely liked me and wouldn't look for me on the battlefield.

Yup, very hostile guy. He's going to kill me in my sleep, or enslave me because I don't follow the Qun.

And a truce is still better than mass slaughter and sundering the veil. And the Qunari who came from Seheron and Par Vollen did leave. It was the Qunari who were born and raised in Rivain who refused to leave their homeland. That's like saying (hypothetically speaking) All Catholics have to leave England as part of a treaty with the Church of England. Huh? Some catholics born in England refuse to leave because they consider it their home. KILL THEM!"

It's a completely immoral and unjust solution. The better solution would be to arrest them and deport them, enforce the treaty. Not kill them en mass.

We're already discussing this in the other thread so, let's repeat ourselves here, shall we?

Fair enough.

The Chantry is right. I don't believe their methods or mentality are perfect but it's true that all mages must be locked up at all times to ensure the safety and freedom of all mundanes and the existence of their civilization.

Then by all means, lock up all human/elven people with real emotions. Sunder them from their families entirely, take away all their children as Chantry property, call them cursed in the Maker's eye day in and day out, give all power over their well-being to a group that is also taught that they are cursed, but also that the group that oversees them has Divine Authority over the mages.

It's not like mages are EVER going to resent such a system. It's not like such a system will EVER collapse from too much abuse of power driving mages into declaring Independence and the now religious zealots called templars, who are also drug addicts, also choose to rebel against the Chantry so they can commit genocide world-wide. That won't ever happen if we follow the Chantry's way of doing things.

....wait. That's exactly what happened as a direct result of the Chantry's way of doing things. Their way simply doesn't work.

Mages need to be trained, and they are dangerous without proper training or education. No one denies that. But there is no proof offered in the game or the books that comes close to suggesting that the Chantry's treatment of mages prevents blood mages and abominations. Heck, Thrask in Act 1 says Meredith creates just as many problems as she tries to prevent, and her attitude seems to be a dominant one in the Chantry.

The system needs reformation, and that means taking away the power the templars have over mages. That does NOT mean giving all the power to the mages to be self-policed. I do not trust mages to police themselves either, for the same reasons you cited concerning the Mages Collective. But I also do not trust the templars or the Chantry. There's too much history and lore that shows they cannot be trusted with that power and responsibility.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

We only went to Orlais in-game because Hawke was invited to join a hunt.

Actually Chateau Haine resides in the Free Marches, on the western verge of the Vimmark Mountains.

MisterJB wrote...

warning supposedly "innocent" mages with blood

Actually, that quest was about warning the relatives of mages about incoming investigations so that they could leave, because the Mages' Collective acknowledges that while the Chantry in Ferelden usually takes care not to punish relatives and friends of Mages in its questioning, they (the Mages' Collective) would rather not chance these people to fall in the "not usually" department.

MisterJB wrote...

killing a group of people are going to deliver "false" testimony

The quest doesn't actually say "Kill them". It just says stop them from delivering the testimony. If you choose to kill them to stop them, that's on you.

And you can't necessarily prove that it's true testimony, given that a few codex entries cite how most common folk conflate regular sanctioned magic they see as being blood magic (see the Spirit School of Magic's codex).

MisterJB wrote...

 bribing the templars with lyrium. I don't believe any of it.

Templars that they can rely on to help them deal with policing rogue mages on other matters without also condemning their secret society. While we don't see this happen, it's clearly something they can do by "leaking" information on a certain bad Mage to people like the Redcliffe Knight-Commander.

I don't necessarily like how they're the ones controlling the Templars, but they're not untrustworthy as of yet. It's known that they've increased the positive perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved.

MisterJB wrote...

Scrolls of Banastor

If one is to combat a threat, they must have an understanding of the threat. It does not necessarily mean they will resort to using such a thing.

But even so, it is suspicious that this Mage wants to acquire copies of scrolls that deal with going all Flemeth on a Demon and mastering it when it possesses you.

Still, no proof either way.

MisterJB wrote...

I don't believe the Qun is vile but I do understand it demands that all qunari be hostile to all baas 100% of the time.

Sten doesn't consider himself hostile. Call him such and he'll be puzzled at the idea of being called hostile, saying if he was truly hostile you'd be bleeding.

They're not hostile unless they're attacking. If they're not attacking, then they're simply there being grumpy.

MisterJB wrote...

If they do not wish to do neither, then there is only one solution.

That's a far cry from your response to me on this same issue a week or two ago where you agreed that the Chantry's mass slaughter of the Rivaini Qunari so soon after the Llommeryn Accords were signed -- the treaty that brought a truce to the Qunari and Thedas, the latter nearly bankrupted by the war -- was a boneheaded and vile move that should never have been done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mars 2013 - 07:10 .

[dragonflight288]

Actually Chateau Haine resides in the Free Marches, on the western verge of the Vimmark Mountains.

Ah. Thank you.

[MisterJB]

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
And we've been in Ferelden and Kirkwall. We only went to Orlais in-game because Hawke was invited to join a hunt. That's not Orlais, the land of the downtrodden elves who are made sex-slaves or peasant girls who can be legally raped by Chevalier as part of a Chevalier's rights. [/quote]
One case is not evidence of a trend. And while it is true chevaliers are granted privileges they shouldn't, I fail to see how this is relevant regarding the level of literacy of Orlais or other countries.

[quote]
To the first point, do you support locking up people in isolated areas in large numbers, and only allowing to leave the area with an armed escort who can legally and freely kill them and make up a story about it and not be investigated over it? I base that off of Aneirin who was called maleficar and run through by the templars, but he most certainly was no blood mage when we do meet him, he's probably one of the most peaceful people there are, and he was only 14 years old when he escaped the circle. [/quote]
How do we know he is not a maleficar? They are not all going to be as obviously demented as Tahrone. As far as we know, Aneirin used blood magic when the templars caught up with him.
And yes, I do support greater restrictions on the freedom of people when those people can kill or control other people with their minds.

[quote]But they do deal with abominations and they did work with templars.[/quote]
They bribe the templars. Do you think that the people bribing the authorities are law-respecting citizens?
If they deal with abominations, it's because they don't wish their own villanious deeds to come to light. And they do so only because there are groups of mundanes, the Templars, who would make them pay for it.

[quote]But I don't trust the templar order to treat mages with respect or dignity, and the templar order (and Seekers) have proven over time that they can be just as bad as a rogue blood mage. The level of abuse the templars are allowed to get away with is atrocious, and if you drive a mage to desperation, when the mage lashes out illogically in a desperate act, that desperate act is then used as justification for treating the mage so harshly in the first place....makes no logical or moral sense. When a mage is driven to despair and desperation, a mage who would never have done it if it weren't for the actions of those treating them like dirt, then while the mage shares some of the blame, most would lie on the heads of those who drove them to that point in the first place. [/quote]
That is an immense exageration. We saw only one Circle where the templars were capable of flaunting the rules of the Chantry and abuse the mages and even there, Meredith couldn't conduct a search without Orsino throwing an hissy fit. In the White Spire, Lambert is considered a strict man but all the mages had to do was protest to get the release of Rhys despite there being evidence he was guilty.
Mages are nowhere nearly as opressed or defenseless as you're portraying them. There will obviously be some degrees of abuses but those are the exception, not the rule.

[quote]That's why I argue for mages and templars working together toward a common goal of keeping people safe.[/quote]
Well, I agree. But it's easier said than done.

[quote]Thrask proved mages and templars can work together towards a common goal in his quest to depose Meredith, so I know it's entirely possible to get mages and templars to work together. [/quote]
Thrask is a failure, his little coligation couldn't even work together enough to depose Meredith.
If anything, what he proved is that good intentions lead to you having your blood forcibly drained from your body. Mercy is such a bloody trap. Too little and you're monstruous. Too much, and you're weak.

[quote]
Mass murder, sundering the veil so demons can come through without assistance from mages, and then denying it. Yup. Perfect solution. [/quote]
Not perfect but preferable to having qunari in Rivain.
Don't forget, they broke the treaty first.

[quote]
As you say Kadaan...oh, wait. My mage warden was called Kadaan by Sten and treated with a great deal of friendship and respect. Sten would eventually have to come back as part of an invasion, but he genuinely liked me and wouldn't look for me on the battlefield.

Yup, very hostile guy. He's going to kill me in my sleep, or enslave me because I don't follow the Qun. [/quote]
You think he wouldn't if the Arishok gave the word?

[quote]And a truce is still better than mass slaughter and sundering the veil. And the Qunari who came from Seheron and Par Vollen did leave. It was the Qunari who were born and raised in Rivain who refused to leave their homeland. That's like saying (hypothetically speaking) All Catholics have to leave England as part of a treaty with the Church of England. Huh? Some catholics born in England refuse to leave because they consider it their home. KILL THEM!"[/quote]
Qunari are qunari regardless of where they are born. The Accord made no distinction between human or elf or kossith.
There was no way to reach a truce because with their presence, the rivaini qunari were effectivelly continuing the war.

[quote]It's a completely immoral and unjust solution. The better solution would be to arrest them and deport them, enforce the treaty. Not kill them en mass. [/quote]
Yes, that would have been the ideal solution. And I see no evidence the rivaini nationalists made no attempt of just deporting them.

[quote]
Then by all means, lock up all human/elven people with real emotions. Sunder them from their families entirely, take away all their children as Chantry property, call them cursed in the Maker's eye day in and day out, give all power over their well-being to a group that is also taught that they are cursed, but also that the group that oversees them has Divine Authority over the mages. [/quote]
All human beings have restrictions placed upon them from birth not because they have given indication of being dangerous but because the possibility exists that we are. These restrictions exist so that society may exist. Logically, those amongst us with greater potential to be dangerous, must have their restrictions stricter still.
The mages have as much security with the templars as I do with the armed forces of my country. More even considering I can't burn people with my mind.
They have freedoms and rights that must be respected just like I do. And if they are not, they must appeal to someone higher up which I also must.
It's true that people just don't like mages, at all, which might lead to some injustice beind commited but the truth is that mundanes are always going to hate mages. That will never change.

[quote]It's not like mages are EVER going to resent such a system. It's not like such a system will EVER collapse from too much abuse of power driving mages into declaring Independence and the now religious zealots called templars, who are also drug addicts, also choose to rebel against the Chantry so they can commit genocide world-wide. That won't ever happen if we follow the Chantry's way of doing things.

....wait. That's exactly what happened as a direct result of the Chantry's way of doing things. Their way simply doesn't work. [/quote]
First, huge assumption about the goals of the templars. I'm not sure how they deal with rebellions and acts of war in your country, but in mine they are executed. Which doesn't equal genocide, there's nothing indicating the templars are just going to start killing any mage they can find. Even Lambert speaks of a new Circle, not extermination.

Second, human beings are fallible, we can overreact, we can get angry over the stupidest things. The simple fact that people rebel is no indicate of failures in the system.
The magisters of Tevinter once murdered the Archon because he wanted to outlaw slavery. Does that mean they were right simply because they believed to be so.

[quote]Mages need to be trained, and they are dangerous without proper training or education. No one denies that. But there is no proof offered in the game or the books that comes close to suggesting that the Chantry's treatment of mages prevents blood mages and abominations. Heck, Thrask in Act 1 says Meredith creates just as many problems as she tries to prevent, and her attitude seems to be a dominant one in the Chantry. [/quote]
Logically, it does. By introducing a system that punishes blood mages and abominations plus fear of divine retribution plus having templars watch mage 24/7 will inevitably lead to a decrease in the number of willing blood mages and abominations due to a fear of retribution. Also, the Circle system increases the speed of templar response which will help contail magical threats. It's all logically sound.
Now, of course, it is also true that mages can be driven to desperation but in all of DA2 I saw a single mage who could rigthfully say the templars lead him to blood magic. One single mage and that was Alain.

[quote]The system needs reformation, and that means taking away the power the templars have over mages. [/quote]
You know, in theory, templars don't have that much power over mages. They watch and counsel but that is all.
Technically, the mages govern themselves with the templars policing them. Of course, this doesn't always translate as it should, sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for ill reasons.
But the truth is that teh current system was built with the idea of templars and mages working together. It's why the KC can't just order the Tranquilization of any apprentice without the FE's approval.
People in Thedas have already had these ideas, they just don't work. Someone ends up taking power in the Circle eventually, it's inevitable. Either the templars or the mages.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 mars 2013 - 02:41 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Templars that they can rely on to help them deal with policing rogue mages on other matters without also condemning their secret society. While we don't see this happen, it's clearly something they can do by "leaking" information on a certain bad Mage to people like the Redcliffe Knight-Commander.

I don't necessarily like how they're the ones controlling the Templars, but they're not untrustworthy as of yet. It's known that they've increased the positive perception of magic by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved.

It's bribery. Usually, the people who obey the laws don't have to bribe the authorities. The fact that they can make problems disappear doesn't mean that problems don't exist.
For instance, a member of the Collective can just use an entire family of mundanes in demonic experimentations and then use these bribed templars to make sure that no one suspects magic was involved.

Still, no proof either way.

That's naive. It's obvious that anyone asking for scrols detailing rituals of blood magic has nefarious deeds in mind.
Same for people who want to to stop "false testimonies" or use blood to warn "relatives".
It's obviously all a lie.

That's a far cry from your response to me on this same issue a week or two ago where you agreed that the Chantry's mass slaughter of the Rivaini Qunari so soon after the Llommeryn Accords were signed -- the treaty that brought a truce to the Qunari and Thedas, the latter nearly bankrupted by the war -- was a boneheaded and vile move that should never have been done.

I read more on the Llommeryn Accord and realized that the qunari had broken the treaty first.
I'm still of the opinion that deportation was the preferable solution but if it's not possible then yes, kill them all.
It's unwise to invite the enemy to live inside your land.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 mars 2013 - 02:52 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

It's bribery. Usually, the people who obey the laws don't have to bribe the authorities.

Technically, they're not obeying the laws and thus they do need to bribe the authorities if they want to stay out in the open. They exist outside of the Circle and are thus apostates, warranting a means to ensure that the Templars do not apprehend them.

So the bribery is necessary. That doesn't mean they're actually doing anything immoral.

The fact that they can make problems disappear doesn't mean that problems don't exist.

Of course. But the fact that by their actions towards said problems the perception of mages and magic has been improved in the eyes of the populus says that they're doing good deeds, not bad.

We see a Mage try to take down his foolish apprentice that dabbled in blood magic, and then lost himself to a Demon.

We receive a quest where we're told to deal with a group of maleficarum operating out of the Brecilian Forest.

And then we receive quests that are not malicious in nature.

For instance, a member of the Collective can just use an entire family of mundanes in demonic experimentations and then use these bribed templars to make sure that no one suspects magic was involved.

Ah, but people would no doubt note the disappearance of a missing family. Bribing Templars would only be a temporary means to avoiding such a thing.

Yes, the potential for abuse is there. I am not denying that. Who here has ever said any system can be free of abuse of power?

As I said, I do not like the Mages' Collective controlling these Templars -- that runs the risk of Tevinter 2.0 -- but as of yet they are not dangerous.

That's naive. It's obvious that anyone asking for scrols detailing rituals of blood magic has nefarious deeds in mind.

No, it's fact. We don't know whether the Mage is or is not going to actually use blood magic. What we know is what the Scrolls of Banastor codex tells us -- going all Flemeth on a Demon when you invite it into yourself -- and the missive that initiates the quest saying that the Mage wants the scrolls to know how the maleficarum near his abode operate so he can deal with them. The best way to combat something is to understand it.

It's highly suspicious, but that's all we can say for certain. I'll grant that he most likely will use blood magic -- for good or ill, dealing with bad blood mages or just desire for power -- but we simply do not know for certain.

Same for people who want to to stop "false testimonies" or use blood to warn "relatives".
It's obviously all a lie.

And who are you to say what is and is not true? We have in-game sources saying that the mundane population will mistake sanctioned magic for blood magic, so to say these testimonies are true and there's no denying it is simply a gross misrepresentation of what we know.

This group could very well have seen the Spirit School of Magic being used by said Mage when they believed him to be a blood mage. We know there are indeed blood mages in the forest -- Thy Brother's Killer -- and it is brought up by the Mage who wrote the quest. It is certainly possible that these people saw the four blood mages at work, were going to report it and mistakeningly condemned the Mage as being a part of them, which prompted the quest's missive.

Indeed, the missive says as much. It says the activities of the maleficarum in the Brecilian forest did not go unnoticed, and that this group mistook what magic the other Mage was doing as being blood magic -- when it may have just been the Spirit school at play.

So yes, I think it's safer to say that this Mage was practicing normal magic and was accused of being something he wasn't.

And why is it hard to believe that warning the relatives of Mages is the truth? What makes it taste a lie? The use of goat's blood to mark the doors? Well, the Jewish people say hi when they used the blood of lambs to mark their doors and avoid the plagues of Egypt.

And for what it's worth, there's some historical evidence to suggest some of those calamities did occur. Whether they were through God or not is up for debate.

Here's the quest in question, if you want to read the missive.

I read more on the Llommeryn Accord and realized that the qunari had broken the treaty first.
I'm still of the opinion that deportation was the preferable solution but if it's not possible then yes, kill them all.
It's unwise to invite the enemy to live inside your land.

The thing to note is that as the Qunari lines were driven further backwards by the Chantry's push, they were unable to convert people back to their faith and so they slaughtered everyone they could for believing in something else to such a degree that the Veil was sundered in some areas. Marnas Pell is one such area. And then they denied doing such things.

The Qunari would eventually settle their forces in one nation so as to keep the death toll to a minimum, but even then Rivain's population suffered horribly from the war. So the Qunari finally left the nation entirely and the Llomerryn Accords were signed off of the namesake neutral island.

You say it's unwise to invite the enemy to live inside your land. For the Qunari, that may be, given that they view such treaties as merely temporary setbacks to their plans. But that is something only known to the Qunari, if Alistair's shock at Sten's remarks is to be taken as any indication.

It's known that the Qunari abhor a waste of life and abhor just as much deception and then maintaining such lies. If deception is to be done, they would at least like people to be upfront and honest about the deceit. That's why the Arishok grows to respect Hawke if he's upfront about the deceit, murder, and all other manner of crimes committed against the Qunari while they're in Kirkwall.

So if the Chantry is going to slaughter people, they could at least tell the damn Qunari of what they did since the Qunari value honesty and that would've been the diplomatic thing to do with them -- since the Qunari version of diplomacy is not like normal diplomacy. 

Either way, I still do not see them as ever being justified, both from a moral standpoint and a practical standpoint. Thedas has just eked out a truce after a war that nearly bankrupted the entire continent, and they chose to slaughter all of these people and deny the act.

And it's a known fact that Kont-Arr, a Rivaini settlement, is still well and true to this day a Qunari settlement. Which says that the Rivaini Qunari were not breaking the treaty, if Kont-Arr which rests in the northern part of Rivain was never handed over to the Chantry.

Why in the hell the armies couldn't round up these people instead of choosing to go through with a massive purge by the sword is beyond me. They weren't Qunari warriors. They were, at most, smiths and artisans and merchants and farmers in Qunari society. 

Perhaps they might've fought back anyway, given that Sten says in times of being threatened all Qunari -- men, women, and children -- would fight to defend their home. Perhaps not. But I see no reason to believe that the Chantry forces couldn't have, as you said, deported them.

But murdering them? Not justified at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mars 2013 - 11:26 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Technically, they're not obeying the laws and thus they do need to bribe the authorities if they want to stay out in the open. They exist outside of the Circle and are thus apostates, warranting a means to ensure that the Templars do not apprehend them.

So the bribery is necessary. That doesn't mean they're actually doing anything immoral.

People who bribe and those who accept bribes have shaky moral compasses at the very least. If a mage is willing to bribe a templar for something more "innocent", there is no reason that same mage would be unwilling to do the same in order to hide more criminal actions and no reason that the templars would not accept the bribe.

Of course. But the fact that by their actions towards said problems the perception of mages and magic has been improved in the eyes of the populus says that they're doing good deeds, not bad.

Individuals are intelligent, groups are stupid.

We receive a quest where we're told to deal with a group of maleficarum operating out of the Brecilian Forest.

Reading the letter makes it quite obvious that what this mage was worried about was not the moral implications of the magic being performed or the possibility that these maleficarum will harm someone but the possibility that they might attract the attention of the templars.

Ah, but people would no doubt note the disappearance of a missing family. Bribing Templars would only be a temporary means to avoiding such a thing.

With these corrupt templars covering their tracks, there is no reason the mundanes would suspect magic was involved.

Yes, the potential for abuse is there. I am not denying that. Who here has ever said any system can be free of abuse of power?

As I said, I do not like the Mages' Collective controlling these Templars -- that runs the risk of Tevinter 2.0 -- but as of yet they are not dangerous.

Free mages are, by definition, dangerous. The fact that they have managed to corrupt a number of templars makes this collective extremely dangerous.
I wish there was a quest to dismantle it but even just to denounce it to the templars I have to do other quests I do not wish to.

No, it's fact. We don't know whether the Mage is or is not going to actually use blood magic. What we know is what the Scrolls of Banastor codex tells us -- going all Flemeth on a Demon when you invite it into yourself -- and the missive that initiates the quest saying that the Mage wants the scrolls to know how the maleficarum near his abode operate so he can deal with them. The best way to combat something is to understand it.

It's highly suspicious, but that's all we can say for certain. I'll grant that he most likely will use blood magic -- for good or ill, dealing with bad blood mages or just desire for power -- but we simply do not know for certain.

These are mages with corrupt templars in their pocket. You can't honestly believe that any mage would require some of the darkest writings in all of Thedas in order to deal with them.

And who are you to say what is and is not true? We have in-game sources saying that the mundane population will mistake sanctioned magic for blood magic, so to say these testimonies are true and there's no denying it is simply a gross misrepresentation of what we know.

This group could very well have seen the Spirit School of Magic being used by said Mage when they believed him to be a blood mage. We know there are indeed blood mages in the forest -- Thy Brother's Killer -- and it is brought up by the Mage who wrote the quest. It is certainly possible that these people saw the four blood mages at work, were going to report it and mistakeningly condemned the Mage as being a part of them, which prompted the quest's missive.

Indeed, the missive says as much. It says the activities of the maleficarum in the Brecilian forest did not go unnoticed, and that this group mistook what magic the other Mage was doing as being blood magic -- when it may have just been the Spirit school at play.

So yes, I think it's safer to say that this Mage was practicing normal magic and was accused of being something he wasn't.

And why is it hard to believe that warning the relatives of Mages is the truth? What makes it taste a lie? The use of goat's blood to mark the doors? Well, the Jewish people say hi when they used the blood of lambs to mark their doors and avoid the plagues of Egypt.

The jews, as far as I know, are not capable of blood magic. So yes, the fact that they use blood is suspicious, why not chalk?
That group delivering the testimony had a mage amongst who should be able to diferentiate between Spirit and Blood Magic.

So, we have blood being used to warn "not" blood mages. We have mages asking for "How to make a demi-god in ten easy steps". We have mages asking to harness power from mystic locations. We have testimonies against Collective Mages. We have mages bribing templars.
You can't tell me this is not suspicious.

The thing to note is that as the Qunari lines were driven further backwards by the Chantry's push, they were unable to convert people back to their faith and so they slaughtered everyone they could for believing in something else to such a degree that the Veil was sundered in some areas. Marnas Pell is one such area. And then they denied doing such things.

The Qunari would eventually settle their forces in one nation so as to keep the death toll to a minimum, but even then Rivain's population suffered horribly from the war. So the Qunari finally left the nation entirely and the Llomerryn Accords were signed off of the namesake neutral island.

You say it's unwise to invite the enemy to live inside your land. For the Qunari, that may be, given that they view such treaties as merely temporary setbacks to their plans. But that is something only known to the Qunari, if Alistair's shock at Sten's remarks is to be taken as any indication.

It's known that the Qunari abhor a waste of life and abhor just as much deception and then maintaining such lies. If deception is to be done, they would at least like people to be upfront and honest about the deceit. That's why the Arishok grows to respect Hawke if he's upfront about the deceit, murder, and all other manner of crimes committed against the Qunari while they're in Kirkwall.

So if the Chantry is going to slaughter people, they could at least tell the damn Qunari of what they did since the Qunari value honesty and that would've been the diplomatic thing to do with them -- since the Qunari version of diplomacy is not like normal diplomacy. 

Either way, I still do not see them as ever being justified, both from a moral standpoint and a practical standpoint. Thedas has just eked out a truce after a war that nearly bankrupted the entire continent, and they chose to slaughter all of these people and deny the act.

And it's a known fact that Kont-Arr, a Rivaini settlement, is still well and true to this day a Qunari settlement. Which says that the Rivaini Qunari were not breaking the treaty, if Kont-Arr which rests in the northern part of Rivain was never handed over to the Chantry.

Why in the hell the armies couldn't round up these people instead of choosing to go through with a massive purge by the sword is beyond me. They weren't Qunari warriors. They were, at most, smiths and artisans and merchants and farmers in Qunari society. 

Perhaps they might've fought back anyway, given that Sten says in times of being threatened all Qunari -- men, women, and children -- would fight to defend their home. Perhaps not. But I see no reason to believe that the Chantry forces couldn't have, as you said, deported them.

But murdering them? Not justified at all.

The right time to learn about the intricacies of a people is not when they are bombing your civilization therefore, it's likely the Andrasteans had no idea about the qunari apreciation for honesty; despite being quite capable of deceit themselves; thus the reason the Chantry lied was to prevent the reigniting of hostilities.
The codex entry on the Accords makes it clear that their presence there was a violation of the agreement. The fact that Kont-Arr exists proves only that the Chantry is not willing to force the issue.

On the other hand, you don't need a thesis on the Qun to understand that having qunari inside your land is logically unsound. I doubt the Rivaini didn't attempt a deportation first but I do acknowledge that it's quite likely that, given the fact a war had just ended, they didn't need much excuse to unsheate the swords. Read a bit on what happened to germans in formerly occupied countries after the end of WW2 to see what I mean.

A shameful thing, certainly, but the facts remain that the qunari broke the treaty first and that qunari can't coexist with other ways of life. At least not without reform.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

People who bribe and those who accept bribes have shaky moral compasses at the very least. If a mage is willing to bribe a templar for something more "innocent", there is no reason that same mage would be unwilling to do the same in order to hide more criminal actions and no reason that the templars would not accept the bribe.

Perhaps. I'm certainly not fit to argue the intricacies of bribery, moral alignment, etc.

Individuals are intelligent, groups are stupid.

Lucy, you've got some esplaining to do.

Reading the letter makes it quite obvious that what this mage was worried about was not the moral implications of the magic being performed or the possibility that these maleficarum will harm someone but the possibility that they might attract the attention of the templars.

The Mage cites such magic as being profane, devilish, blasphemers, and so on. So obviously, he does worry about the moral implications of the magic. And he's worried that they'll summon Demons.

So while he's worried about the Templars coming down on him, he's also appalled by the magic and worried that they'll summon Demons.

With these corrupt templars covering their tracks, there is no reason the mundanes would suspect magic was involved.

This all depends, of course, on where the mundane family was. Close to Denerim? Not likely to be covered up. Though given how the Templars in Denerim refused to investigate signs of maleficarum because they didn't believe the man who said such things -- which prompted said Templar to investigate on his own, causing his death -- I can't say I place much trust in them to do their job either.

Free mages are, by definition, dangerous. The fact that they have managed to corrupt a number of templars makes this collective extremely dangerous.
I wish there was a quest to dismantle it but even just to denounce it to the templars I have to do other quests I do not wish to.

Then is that free mage accompanying the people with the testimony not a danger? He is not affiliated with the Circle.

And are these Templars corrupt? That all falls into what one considers to be corruption for an Order like this. These Templars ultimately serve their own ends -- a desire for lyrium -- and assists the Mages since they benefit from it. This is not something restricted to Templars assisting apostates. Templars in Kirkwall would often buy smuggled lyrium to sate their fix for the stone.

Would you call Ser Maarevar Carver corrupt for allowing Malcolm Hawke to go free from Kirkwall?

These Templars do not seem to be corrupt in a bad sense. Rather, I see them as perhaps the people that would lead the Order to becoming more ideal. They will work alongside Mages -- as it should be -- but as I said earlier, I don't like the Mages controlling the Templars.

These are mages with corrupt templars in their pocket. You can't honestly believe that any mage would require some of the darkest writings in all of Thedas in order to deal with them.

Do you deny that in order to combat a threat, one must first understand the threat?

The jews, as far as I know, are not capable of blood magic. So yes, the fact that they use blood is suspicious, why not chalk?

Does chalk exist in Thedas?

That group delivering the testimony had a mage amongst who should be able to diferentiate between Spirit and Blood Magic.

I thought of this after I typed my post once I realized there was a mage amongst them -- Circle or no -- so yes, logically he should know the difference.

Unless the robes that he drops with the description of a painfully shy mage are to be as an indication that this Mage is... well... painfully shy.

So, we have blood being used to warn "not" blood mages. We have mages asking for "How to make a demi-god in ten easy steps". We have mages asking to harness power from mystic locations. We have testimonies against Collective Mages. We have mages bribing templars.
You can't tell me this is not suspicious.

What's wrong with harnessing power from mystic locations? It's not blood magic. It doesn't even require blood at all. All it does require is placing a glyph in certain areas.

The Templars in Denerim seem to be people that don't really take their duty seriously, if the quest The Last Request involving Ser Friden's journal/corpse is to be taken as any indication. Hell, Tavish decides to take your lyrium potions if you tell him about how the Mages want someone to pay Harrith with his own (the Warden's) lyrium potions.

I'd say that's real corruption, taking what belongs to someone else just so you can have "evidence". Someone that's actually helping you by giving you the real evidence. It'd be one thing if Tavish caught the Warden helping the Collective, where he could then seize the evidence. 

But taking what legally belongs to the guy that's helping you just so you can have a stronger case? 

A shameful thing, certainly, but the facts remain that the qunari broke the treaty first and that qunari can't coexist with other ways of life. At least not without reform.

I don't deny that the Qunari broke the terms of the treaty -- assuming Kont-Arr wasn't given to the Qunari, that is, in the treaty -- but I just will never justify or defend the Chantry's actions. It's the most idiotic, absurd, vile, and heinous act of bloodlust one could do in that situation.

Sister Petrine, the woman that wrote the codex and who prides herself on making sure the truth is known (at least from what she can research on subjects with info at hand, doesn't talk of the Rivaini Chantry using diplomacy or deportation as a means to deal with the Qunari then I seriously doubt they attempted anything short of a purge by the sword.

Especially since they did that repeatedly in the war itself.

[MisterJB]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The Mage cites such magic as being profane, devilish, blasphemers, and so on. So obviously, he does worry about the moral implications of the magic. And he's worried that they'll summon Demons.

So while he's worried about the Templars coming down on him, he's also appalled by the magic and worried that they'll summon Demons.[/quote]
He's just afraid of being discovered or possessed. The rest is likely to be just him putting a show.

[quote]
Then is that free mage accompanying the people with the testimony not a danger? He is not affiliated with the Circle.[/quote]
He is.

[quote]And are these Templars corrupt? That all falls into what one considers to be corruption for an Order like this. These Templars ultimately serve their own ends -- a desire for lyrium -- and assists the Mages since they benefit from it. This is not something restricted to Templars assisting apostates. Templars in Kirkwall would often buy smuggled lyrium to sate their fix for the stone.[/quote]
They are being bribed to forget their duties which is to keep mages in the Circle so yes, I'd say they are corrupt. Templars don't exist solely to assist mages. What if no one takes the "Have you seen me?" quest? Then suddenly there is an Abomination on the loose.

[quote]Would you call Ser Maarevar Carver corrupt for allowing Malcolm Hawke to go free from Kirkwall?[/quote]
Not corrupt since he is not doing it for himself but he is failing to uphold his duty.
We think of his action as "good" because Malcolm never fell to temptation. Had he become an Abomination and destroyed Lothering, we would say something else.

[quote]These Templars do not seem to be corrupt in a bad sense. Rather, I see them as perhaps the people that would lead the Order to becoming more ideal. They will work alongside Mages -- as it should be -- but as I said earlier, I don't like the Mages controlling the Templars.[/quote]
I see them as DA's Janos Slynt.

[quote]
Do you deny that in order to combat a threat, one must first understand the threat?[/quote]
That depends on the threat. Considering that mage did not claim to be researching how to revert possession, I dare say he doesn't require those scrolls in order to kill these malleficarum if they really exist.


[quote]
Does chalk exist in Thedas?[/quote]
Coal, whatever.

[quote]
I thought of this after I typed my post once I realized there was a mage amongst them -- Circle or no -- so yes, logically he should know the difference.

Unless the robes that he drops with the description of a painfully shy mage are to be as an indication that this Mage is... well... painfully shy.[/quote]
I fail to see the point.

[quote]
What's wrong with harnessing power from mystic locations? It's not blood magic. It doesn't even require blood at all. All it does require is placing a glyph in certain areas.[/quote]
Mages demand equality and yet they refuse to abstain from the very thing that makes them unequal. I am wary of any Apostate who seeks to increase his power.

[quote]The Templars in Denerim seem to be people that don't really take their duty seriously, if the quest The Last Request involving Ser Friden's journal/corpse is to be taken as any indication. Hell, Tavish decides to take your lyrium potions if you tell him about how the Mages want someone to pay Harrith with his own (the Warden's) lyrium potions.

I'd say that's real corruption, taking what belongs to someone else just so you can have "evidence". Someone that's actually helping you by giving you the real evidence. It'd be one thing if Tavish caught the Warden helping the Collective, where he could then seize the evidence. 

But taking what legally belongs to the guy that's helping you just so you can have a stronger case? [/quote]
A game requirement. You're meant to spend 10 lyrium potions regardless of what side you choose.

[quote]
I don't deny that the Qunari broke the terms of the treaty -- assuming Kont-Arr wasn't given to the Qunari, that is, in the treaty -- but I just will never justify or defend the Chantry's actions. It's the most idiotic, absurd, vile, and heinous act of bloodlust one could do in that situation.[/quote]
I disagree. While it was a bloodthirsty, it was also the correct one from a self-defence point of view.

[quote]Sister Petrine, the woman that wrote the codex and who prides herself on making sure the truth is known (at least from what she can research on subjects with info at hand, doesn't talk of the Rivaini Chantry using diplomacy or deportation as a means to deal with the Qunari then I seriously doubt they attempted anything short of a purge by the sword.

Especially since they did that repeatedly in the war itself.

[/quote]
They did try the more peaceful solution of converting them back first. I doubt they went from "convertion" to "slaugther" without at least trying "deportation" first. It just seems logical,

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

Not exactly the most intellectual of my posts but here is a good reason to side with the Templars. Mages are vandals.


"FREE THE MAGES! FREE THE MAGES!"

As a pro mage I find this to be funny. It certainly gave me a good laugh or two.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 13 octobre 2013 - 05:33 .

[Lazy Jer]

Lord Raijin wrote...

As a pro mage I find this to be funny. It certainly gave me a good laugh or two.

I know one of the faces is Anders, but the other one moves to fast for be to tell for certain who it is.  Sebastian maybe?

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

People can make up justifications for just about anything. However, there is no rational defense for killing innocent people.

[Ferretinabun]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

People can make up justifications for just about anything. However, there is no rational defense for killing innocent people.

I think "To save a greater number of innocent people" is a perfectly rational defense for doing so.

People can argue back and forth on whether that is actually the case presented by DA2, and I'm really on the fence.

My ACTUAL justification for siding with the Templars is purely aesthetic - DA2's plot makes better sense if Hawke sympathises with the Templars.

That, and I like romancing Fenris. 

[Xilizhra]

I think "To save a greater number of innocent people" is a perfectly rational defense for doing so.

Which conveniently is not a valid reason.

My ACTUAL justification for siding with the Templars is purely aesthetic - DA2's plot makes better sense if Hawke sympathises with the Templars.

It makes a complete lack of sense.

[draken-heart]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think "To save a greater number of innocent people" is a perfectly rational defense for doing so.

Which conveniently is not a valid reason.

My ACTUAL justification for siding with the Templars is purely aesthetic - DA2's plot makes better sense if Hawke sympathises with the Templars.

It makes a complete lack of sense.

There is no reason to do either side of the Mage-Templar debate, once you learn that Kirkwall is corrupt as [insert proper explicative here].

Plus, I think Meredith even sent for the RoA BEFORE the Chantry incident, which means the Circle was corrupt Before meredith chose to invoke it herself.

Modifié par draken-heart, 13 novembre 2013 - 06:59 .