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[draken-heart]

dragonflight288 wrote...

it was denied because Elthina did not care about Kirkwall, and as long as the chantry itself is not harmed, neither should Meredith care.

Idealism or Pragmatism are the only reasons to make a choice on any side.

Did no care about Kirkwall? Is there evidence or dialogue that supports this, or is this merely your opinion?

She keeps crazies around without doing anything. The best that Kirkwall needs is a revered mother  who is willing to do the right thing and get rid of Orsino and Meredith in place of t more level headed people. Then it probably wou not haveent to a head like it did.

[dragonflight288]

draken-heart wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

it was denied because Elthina did not care about Kirkwall, and as long as the chantry itself is not harmed, neither should Meredith care.

Idealism or Pragmatism are the only reasons to make a choice on any side.

Did no care about Kirkwall? Is there evidence or dialogue that supports this, or is this merely your opinion?

She keeps crazies around without doing anything. The best that Kirkwall needs is a revered mother  who is willing to do the right thing and get rid of Orsino and Meredith in place of t more level headed people. Then it probably wou not haveent to a head like it did.

Is this saying that Elthina endorsed the templars seizing all the power and how the mages are treated? I ask because those actions could easily be interpreted that way.

There is no fool-proof way to interpret it. There has to be more than a single gamer's interpretation to make a convincing argument that Elthina doesn't care about Kirkwall. You'll need more than that.

That doesn't mean your argument doesn't have merit, but there are so many different ways to interpret her inactions and those who rise in the ranks. It could easily be all about maintaining Chantry influence. If the Circle were annulled, then all the justification Meredith has to remain defacto Viscount goes out the window, and therin so also goes the Chantry's direct influence on Kirkwall policies.

[draken-heart]

dragonflight288 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

it was denied because Elthina did not care about Kirkwall, and as long as the chantry itself is not harmed, neither should Meredith care.

Idealism or Pragmatism are the only reasons to make a choice on any side.

Did no care about Kirkwall? Is there evidence or dialogue that supports this, or is this merely your opinion?

She keeps crazies around without doing anything. The best that Kirkwall needs is a revered mother  who is willing to do the right thing and get rid of Orsino and Meredith in place of t more level headed people. Then it probably wou not haveent to a head like it did.

Is this saying that Elthina endorsed the templars seizing all the power and how the mages are treated? I ask because those actions could easily be interpreted that way.

There is no fool-proof way to interpret it. There has to be more than a single gamer's interpretation to make a convincing argument that Elthina doesn't care about Kirkwall. You'll need more than that.

That doesn't mean your argument doesn't have merit, but there are so many different ways to interpret her inactions and those who rise in the ranks. It could easily be all about maintaining Chantry influence. If the Circle were annulled, then all the justification Meredith has to remain defacto Viscount goes out the window, and therin so also goes the Chantry's direct influence on Kirkwall policies.

IT shows that, as long as you listen to her, you get to do whatver you want. Want to hide an evil bod mage from justice? Go ahead, just lock up the research you are given in a mega secured place and pass it off as "too dangerous" instead of turning it over to the proper authorities. Want to hid blood mages in the Circle? Okay, jut send the Champion to keep Meredith from having real ammunition against you. Want to take over the City? That is alright, just do not let your other duties start a riot in the streets.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

IntoTheDarkness wrote...




I think the final choice of the game is no-brainer because siding with the templars is unreasonable given the circumstances.

Right of Annulment of all innocent and guilty mages alike without sorting them out just because one mage OUTSIDE of the circle went berserk and assassinated the grand cleric? Even with an assumption that Anders had many accomplices in the circle to help him with the assassination, it's no reason to annahilate all mages of the circle. It's like castrating every male for the possible danger of sexual assualt just because of one sex offender. It's that absurd.

It's true that many mages had been practicing a blood magic and even the fisrt enchanter could be a part of it, but why should templars outright annahilate everyone instead of doing investigation/interrogations? The first enchanter would have been forced to accept any terms the templars demand to search the blood mages after an assassination of the grand cleric. Meridith's call for the right of annulment is uncalled for, and I don't see why would any players decide to side with the templars unless they just bring personal feelings to cloud their judgement.


If you have chosen to help templars, what were your reasons behind that choice?

Other than being a paranoid nut case? No, I can't think of one good reason to ever side with the Templars in DA2 or even in DA:O.

[draken-heart]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

IntoTheDarkness wrote...




I think the final choice of the game is no-brainer because siding with the templars is unreasonable given the circumstances.

Right of Annulment of all innocent and guilty mages alike without sorting them out just because one mage OUTSIDE of the circle went berserk and assassinated the grand cleric? Even with an assumption that Anders had many accomplices in the circle to help him with the assassination, it's no reason to annahilate all mages of the circle. It's like castrating every male for the possible danger of sexual assualt just because of one sex offender. It's that absurd.

It's true that many mages had been practicing a blood magic and even the fisrt enchanter could be a part of it, but why should templars outright annahilate everyone instead of doing investigation/interrogations? The first enchanter would have been forced to accept any terms the templars demand to search the blood mages after an assassination of the grand cleric. Meridith's call for the right of annulment is uncalled for, and I don't see why would any players decide to side with the templars unless they just bring personal feelings to cloud their judgement.


If you have chosen to help templars, what were your reasons behind that choice?

Other than being a paranoid nut case? No, I can't think of one good reason to ever side with the Templars in DA2 or even in DA:O.

Maybe, maybe not. it depends on how you look at things. Orsino sending me to do the Knight-Commander's job? suspicious. Orsino blocking Meredith from solving problems? odd. The fact that Orsino essentially admits, if you side with him or play neutral, that if Meredith investigated the revolt against her, she would have the evidence needed to justify the RoA? Clinches it for me.

[BHRamsay]

I love playing a promage Hawke who has his/her preconceptions about mages and their abilities blown away

Merrill is so desperate to save her people she ends up destroying them
Anders becomes everything he claims mages aren't
Fenris finds in a mageHawke the embodiment of everything he loves and hates about magic

by the endgame siding with the Templars seems not only necessary but right.

as Fenris says, "They (mages) cannot hide behind their rights when they endanger so many."

[draken-heart]

BHRamsay wrote...

I love playing a promage Hawke who has his/her preconceptions about mages and their abilities blown away

Merrill is so desperate to save her people she ends up destroying them
Anders becomes everything he claims mages aren't
Fenris finds in a mageHawke the embodiment of everything he loves and hates about magic

by the endgame siding with the Templars seems not only necessary but right.

as Fenris says, "They (mages) cannot hide behind their rights when they endanger so many."

except that nobody knows if that fear is justified.

[dragonflight288]

BHRamsay wrote...

I love playing a promage Hawke who has his/her preconceptions about mages and their abilities blown away

Merrill is so desperate to save her people she ends up destroying them
Anders becomes everything he claims mages aren't
Fenris finds in a mageHawke the embodiment of everything he loves and hates about magic

by the endgame siding with the Templars seems not only necessary but right.

as Fenris says, "They (mages) cannot hide behind their rights when they endanger so many."

Merrill never acts against them. They act against her and Hawke and Merrill is forced to defend herself. Has nothing to do with the eluvian at that point. It's all about Merethari telling the clan that she'll bring back the darkspawn taint and the hate her for that reason alone.

[BHRamsay]

dragonflight288 wrote...

BHRamsay wrote...

I love playing a promage Hawke who has his/her preconceptions about mages and their abilities blown away

Merrill is so desperate to save her people she ends up destroying them
Anders becomes everything he claims mages aren't
Fenris finds in a mageHawke the embodiment of everything he loves and hates about magic

by the endgame siding with the Templars seems not only necessary but right.

as Fenris says, "They (mages) cannot hide behind their rights when they endanger so many."

Merrill never acts against them. They act against her and Hawke and Merrill is forced to defend herself. Has nothing to do with the eluvian at that point. It's all about Merethari telling the clan that she'll bring back the darkspawn taint and the hate her for that reason alone.

The Sundermount elves have lost their Keeper, their First , and their Halla, they were in trouble long before the illadvised attack

Merrill ignores every signpost warning of trouble and gets mad at you if you aren't equally as reckless

check out her approvals page on Dragon Age wiki sometime.

You can earn a ton of rivalry just by refusing to deal with demons... something that if you've been playing since Origins,  you KNOW is a bad idea.

Modifié par BHRamsay, 30 novembre 2013 - 11:16 .

[BHRamsay]

draken-heart wrote...



except that nobody knows if that fear is justified.

Anders claims he's never met a mage that's wanted to rule anything. except he mentions the Blackmarsh affair in Ameranthine. A dangerous Blood Mage enslaved an entire township,  using them and feeding off them.

its the mission where you first meet Justice

interesting sidenote,  if you choose to help Justice instead of the Blackmarsh Queen,  Anders disapproves--what difference a year makes

Anders knows how dangerous magic can be and he consistently handwaves that danger--- until you meet Merrill,  He lectures Merrill constantly about the dangers of Blood Magic while he totally absolves Evelina the mage of guilt after she slaughters a score of Templars.

If you want to argue magic isn't dangerous, I'll agree. Most of those who use it however,  like Anders are dangerously irresponsible.

[draken-heart]

@BHRamsay: Mage supporters look almost exclusively at the chantry explosion and Meredith's treatment of mages as justification to not side with the templars.

[BHRamsay]

We all have our sticking points, to this day I still want to believe Elthina wasn't an ineffectual waffler whose dangerous naivete lead to her own tragic demise

[draken-heart]

BHRamsay wrote...

We all have our sticking points, to this day I still want to believe Elthina wasn't an ineffectual waffler whose dangerous naivete lead to her own tragic demise

except the mess is Elthina's fault in the first place. If I was Elthina (Even though I know I could not be), I would remove the leaders of the Circle and Templars in Kirkwall and replace them with more reasonable people