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[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But it's already been proven in the codexes that mages are just as vital as artillery in times of war. The first time the Qunari came, they pretty much swept across Thedas almost unopposed. All the countries simply couldn't keep up with their brute strength or their technology. It was simply out of their hands. It was only when mages were utilized that the tide turned in the war. Immediately after the Qunari were turned back, the mages were locked back inside the Circles.

No.
The codex doesn't prove that the war was lost without mages.

And in Kirkwall mages weren't allowed outside at all and were beaten if they were caught talking to civilians. But also under Gregoire, first time run-away elven mage Aneirin was simply run though rather than brought back compared to seven-time run-away Anders. And Gregoire thought seven mages was too many to support the army at Ostagar.

So? I fail to see your point.
It's not like Gregoir ordered Aneirin run trough, nor it's not like you know what exactly happened there. I really want to know what you expected?

And as I said - 7 mages are enough for a darkspawn raiding party when you have an entire friggin army there.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd question the justification for siding with mages other than moral code and ethics crossing into your character's world view.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
I didnt say they should act like chevaliers. I say if they have complaints take it seriously. And they are not usefull they are vital. Which is basis of the DA3 plot. You only look to mages and templars and not to the factions that surround them. now a second group of mages have emerged and the chantry cannot stop them as both the templars and circle mages are at war.

No, what you said was that the needs of mages should be placed above the need of mundanes which is an invitation for them to act like chevaliers. After all, the need for sexual release of a chevaliertakes precedence over the need for safety of a peasant woman of Orlais, right? The Chevaliers are vital to the defense of that country,

And the mages are not vital to the defense of Thedas. They are useful but you can end the Fifth Bligth without the help of any mage with the exception of Flemeth and all she did was rescue the Warden from a tower, she didn't kill a single Darkspawn. Garahel was a mundane as well.
I'm sure you'll tell me how vital the Circle was fighting back the Qunari and how the Gre Warden joining requires spells.
Well, the dwarves made up Golems completely without a mage which leads me to believe we could do the same for the Joining if we actually tried and were humanity not so reliant upon magic, we would have gunpowder to counter the qunari with by now.
And that's really a problem. Humanity has become far too reliant upon magic. We need technology that can be used by anyone.

I dont give a damn about these arguments we had 40 times in the past. You failed to adress the fact that their is a group of mages that have manipulated the templars and the circle mages. The current system cannot function if  their is a group of people who a more magically advanced (they rend the fade open causing hordes of demons to enter thedas) and can somehow cause a civil war between mages and templars. Ignorance is not a strenght and this will be proven in DA3

[dragonflight288]

[quote]

So? I fail to see your point.
It's not like Gregoir ordered Aneirin run trough, nor it's not like you know what exactly happened there. I really want to know what you expected?

And as I said - 7 mages are enough for a darkspawn raiding party when you have an entire friggin army there.[/quote[

But it wasn't a raiding party and the whole army was there, with reinforcements from Orlais on the way. The soldiers didn't know it was a blight, but they knew that every battle they fought that the darkspawn's numbers increased. And their numbers kept growing.

When you have hundreds of wardens from orlais backed up by Chevalier's, all of whom were invited by the king, it should be made very clear that more than seven mages are required.

And my original point was a form of rebuttal against MisterJB that things seemed to be great in Ferelden, or at least less abusive (which they were) but the negatives were definitely being glossed over, so I thought it prudent to point them out.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
The thing about glyphs are as soon as someone steps into them its effect bursts and it's no longer there. The mage in question would have to use glyphs constantly, and that would tire him out. Then you have the landing part to think about. It would be cool to watch and see if it's truly feasible, however.

I'm picturing Oghren and Anders experimenting with it in Vigil's Keep.

As for mages making mundanes screws if they became as vital as oil, not necessarily true. Say a mage does learn how to improve upon transportation, but it requires a very specific magical skill-set, then only a handful of mages would be able to do it.

That would still be a line of work open only for a priviliged few. There are, of course, many areas, too many, in which the mages would likely dominate such as city guard which I've expanded upon in the previous post. And when they do, it's not like they will content themselves with it. If the mages are the primary providers of vital technological advancements that can only be created by other mages, they will prety much dominate society. Even if the throne of mundane kings are respected, they will have little power.

But it's already been proven in the codexes that mages are just as vital as artillery in times of war. The first time the Qunari came, they pretty much swept across Thedas almost unopposed. All the countries simply couldn't keep up with their brute strength or their technology. It was simply out of their hands. It was only when mages were utilized that the tide turned in the war. Immediately after the Qunari were turned back, the mages were locked back inside the Circles.

Not really. The Codex mentions that a single human nation would be massacred by the qunari forces but. when they all united in Exalthed Marches, they were able to fight them to a standstill.
The mages enabled the human forces to finally start winning and retaking territory. And, as I've said before, if humanity wasn't so dependant upon magic, which I find to be extremely dangerous considering only a portion of the population are mages, we might have already invented gunpowder at the very least.

And in Kirkwall mages weren't allowed outside at all and were beaten if they were caught talking to civilians. But also under Gregoire, first time run-away elven mage Aneirin was simply run though rather than brought back compared to seven-time run-away Anders. And Gregoire thought seven mages was too many to support the army at Ostagar.

We don't know exactly what happened with Aineirin. Maybe it was a result of racial tensions (in comparison, Anders was brought back seven times), maybe he used blood magic.
And what exactly is the issue with Gregoir being afraid of mages learning that they actually like to throw fireballs at things? It seems like a reasonable concern to me.
And maybe he was actually concerned for the mages. Darkspawn are dangerous.

While it's true we see most abuse from Kirkwall, there are some serious undertones and implications in Origins as well. The Revered Mother in Redcliff tells a mage warden that she won't raise a mob against him, as if the Warden needed reassuring. Wynne talking about how some apprentices never make it to the Circle because mobs of regular citizens kill the child when their magic is discovered and blame them for bad things happening.

Which is a sad and shameful attitude but not a result of any templar abuses. In fact, it's partially why the templars exist, to serve as a refuge for mages.

I hope that's actually fixed in Inquisition as well. DA2 did kind of skew people's perspectives on mages and tempalrs by giving the extremes of both sides. The desperate and the crazy mages compared to the sadistic and abusive templars. We see how much damage one grief-stricken mage can do as he murders women including Hawke's mother over the years, and we see how little oversight the Chantry actually gives its templars when the templars decide to abuse their power and get away with it.

I think we can both agree that Kirkwall in general was an extreme case no matter which side you support.

I agree but it decidly bothers me how mages like Tahrone or Quentin are "crazy" while Alrik and Karras are "sadistic".
It always seems to exempt them from their responsabilities. They weren't desperate like Elain, they chose to hurt people.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

And maybe he was actually concerned for the mages. Darkspawn are dangerous.

From what I can recall of the Mage Origin, his dialogue pretty much told us that wasn't why at all. He does care about the Mages, but that wasn't why he shot down sending more to Ostagar.

MisterJB wrote...

Which is a sad and shameful attitude but not a result of any templar abuses. In fact, it's partially why the templars exist, to serve as a refuge for mages.

The Mages' Collective has increased the positive outlook on Mages by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved, which indicates that the Chantry isn't particularly benevolent in their duties in Ferelden.

The Grand Cleric of Ferelden shot down Uldred's request to provide an alternative to the Tower's beacon for no real reason. Her reason was "You're a Mage, we're not trusting any lives to you with your spells."

Sure, Uldred's a ****** and untrustworthy by nature, but she didn't say "We do not trust you, Uldred." which would've been something different. She says "We will not trust any lives to your spells, Mage."

And you hear of Templars who enjoy killing Mages that fail their Harrowing, from Cullen. Plus, there are a few other things the Magi Origin tells you about the Circle's nature.

Throw in how Gregoir beat a pregnant Mage -- which, unless he mellowed over the years like I hope* is the case, makes him an **** -- and... well... you've got some underlying problems. Ferelden's Circle is certainly better then other Circles, but it still has some major problems.

*I mean really, those comics completely contradict his character as a person that does care for the Mages but also wants to do his duty.

MisterJB wrote...

They weren't desperate like Elain, they chose to hurt people.

People who are insane in our world and commit crimes aren't really punished for it, because mentally they were not capable of discerning right from wrong anymore -- if they ever were.

It'd be one thing if Tarohne presented a decent counterargument for why the Mages should fight back -- though I'd still take issue with her methods -- because that'd render her sane and in control of her full mental faculties.

Then she could be held accountable for her actions, just like Uldred is held accountable for choosing to use blood magic, teaching Mages it (and sacrificing some to elevate his own status and keep himself from being identified as a blood mage), and summoning Demons that eventually overtook him.

His motives may have been largely good -- though I question whether he would've been doing it for freedom... or for freedom and power -- but how he went about it was not wise and was his own choice.

But... Tarohne... she's bonkers. And she looks like a deranged clown.

And Quentin... well... he is deranged. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 janvier 2013 - 11:15 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Etheral, you should now by now that those comics are garbage.
EA strikes again.

People will fear mages. Period. It's only natural...you can keep going on an on how that is just chantry propaganda, but it's obvious that is not true.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
From what I can recall of the Mage Origin, his dialogue pretty much told us that wasn't why at all. He does care about the Mages, but that wasn't why he shot down sending more to Ostagar.

Having played it just two days ago, my memory is quite fresh. Gregoir says that they have commited enough of their own to the war effort. Irving suggests that Gregoir is just scared of the mages using their powers which seems to outrage Gregoir.
I admit that it is more likely he is just scared of the mage discovering that they like to throw fireballs at things but we can't say for sure.
Besides, it's a fair concern.

MisterJB wrote...
The Mages' Collective has increased the positive outlook on Mages by making problems disappear before the Chantry got involved, which indicates that the Chantry isn't particularly benevolent in their duties in Ferelden.

Or they are simply trying to conceal their evildoing like the blood mage being "falsely" accused or the mage who wants scrolls detailing how to bind demons to one's wills.
I don't trust the Collective. At all.

The Grand Cleric of Ferelden shot down Uldred's request to provide an alternative to the Tower's beacon for no real reason. Her reason was "You're a Mage, we're not trusting any lives to you with your spells."

Sure, Uldred's a ****** and untrustworthy by nature, but she didn't say "We do not trust you, Uldred." which would've been something different. She says "We will not trust any lives to your spells, Mage."

No one said mages and priests are BFFs in Ferelden but it is true they are not being abused. Distrusting others doesn't make someone a bad person.

And you hear of Templars who enjoy killing Mages that fail their Harrowing, from Cullen.

Sure but they are not beating or violating mages which is what is more important.

Plus, there are a few other things the Magi Origin tells you about the Circle's nature.

Such as?

Throw in how Gregoir beat a pregnant Mage -- which, unless he mellowed over the years like I hope* is the case, makes him an **** --

I doubt the people who wrote those comics actually played the game beforehand. They were probrably just given a vague outline.
I mean, there are mages growing arms back in there.

MisterJB wrote...
People who are insane in our world and commit crimes aren't really punished for it, because mentally they were not capable of discerning right from wrong anymore -- if they ever were.

It'd be one thing if Tarohne presented a decent counterargument for why the Mages should fight back -- though I'd still take issue with her methods -- because that'd render her sane and in control of her full mental faculties.

Then she could be held accountable for her actions, just like Uldred is held accountable for choosing to use blood magic, teaching Mages it (and sacrificing some to elevate his own status and keep himself from being identified as a blood mage), and summoning Demons that eventually overtook him.

His motives may have been largely good -- though I question whether he would've been doing it for freedom... or for freedom and power -- but how he went about it was not wise and was his own choice.

But... Tarohne... she's bonkers. And she looks like a deranged clown.

Tarohne presents an argument. She is a mage supremacist, plain and simple.
Simply because we disagree with her stance doesn't mean she is insane. Tahrone is as accountable for her actions as Ser Karras.

And Quentin... well... he is deranged. 

He seems to be very much in contact with reality. He even understands that what he is doing would be considered wrong by others.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Etheral, you should now by now that those comics are garbage.
EA strikes again.

People will fear mages. Period. It's only natural...you can keep going on an on how that is just chantry propaganda, but it's obvious that is not true.

That fear can be turned against them.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I'd question the justification for siding with mages other than moral code and ethics crossing into your character's world view.

Some people don't think that the Chantry controlled Circles are effective or the correct means of dealing with magic and mages.

[Lazy Jer]

Sure there's a justification to siding with the templars. It's all depends on how you feel about magic. The game sets up a scenario where the Templars are corrupted by their own power and many, if not most, of the mages have turned to blood magic and abominations are roaming the streets trying to kill you.

To paraphrase Varric; the harder the templars squeezed their fist the more the mages resisted, the more the mages resisted the harder they squeezed. Sure one could put initial blame on the templars for squeezing too hard, but too many mages were bringing in too many demons into Kirkwall and thinning the vale way too much. In the end both sides were about equally out of control.

The fact is that, while Meredith was wrong and corrupt by power and driven by paranoia, some of the mages in the circle were blood mages and dangerous. So it all depends on what you feel is more important. The game forces you to choose between oppression and safty or freedom and danger. People who side with the templars put more value on the former.

[TEWR]

Lotion_Soronnar wrote...

Etheral, you should now by now that those comics are garbage.

Sadly, they're very much canon. Garbage canon, but nevertheless canon.

MisterJB wrote...

I mean, there are mages growing arms back in there.

Hey man, if the Architect can do it, so can the Mages! =P

Or they are simply trying to conceal their evildoing like the blood mage being "falsely" accused or the mage who wants scrolls detailing how to bind demons to one's wills.

To the first, we've seen the Collective dealing with maleficar in their ranks. They also have an entire group of Templars in their pocket -- Redcliffe's Templars -- so if they ever needed help dealing with someone in their ranks they knew to be a maleficar they could just "leak" information to those Templars that they trust.

To the second, that Mage needed to research it because blood mages were settled near him doing just that. How can you fight against something if you don't understand it? That doesn't mean he'll do it himself, but in order to figure out a capable countermeasure he will need to research it.

Like Adralla did. She studied blood magic and was able to devise countermeasures, but she never once practiced it -- or so it's claimed she never did.

Distrusting others doesn't make someone a bad person.

I think not giving you the chance to earn their trust simply because you're a Mage does make you a bad person. It's one thing to distrust a certain person because of who they are -- Uldred being a vocal Libertarian and a slimeball -- and another to distrust Mages in general because they're Mages.

MisterJB wrote...

Such as?

Apprentices go missing without explanations, when other apprentices can overhear of Templars killing maleficars in other missions and Tranquility has records -- plus you'd see them in the halls and the apprentices know of Mages made Tranquil.

Templars spying on Mages when they bathe.

Not that the latter is particularly condemning of the Circle of Ferelden in and of itself. It's an invasion of privacy, but nothing particularly damning. 

MisterJB wrote...

Tarohne presents an argument. She is a mage supremacist, plain and simple.

On the surface, sure she's a Mage supremacist. Peel away the layers however and you'll see she's that and deranged.

MisterJB wrote...

He seems to be very much in contact with reality. He even understands that what he is doing would be considered wrong by others.

To which he promptly goes "No! The only one who can stop me is the Maker, if this is so wrong!"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 janvier 2013 - 03:33 .

[Gazardiel]

(full disclosure: I support mages with my principled characters)

To me, the key issue that justifies the restriction/internment/enslavement of mages revolves around HOW mages kill and hurt people. Walking around Kirkwall, you see plenty of dead and dying bodies, and those are mostly due to people with pointy sticks and nobles with no compassion. It doesn't take magic to kill people or to make them suffer in abject misery. Darktown is a bunch of abandoned mining tunnels where I'm sure plenty of miners died from completely mundane means, no magic needed.

But blood magic bothers us because there is something scarier, more intimate, and more alien about it (kind of like biological, chemical and nuclear weapons). You can see the sword plunged into your guts by a knight or thug, but you can't see the blood boiling in your veins. Bethany and Aveline had a conversation to this effect - how does a swords(wo)man keep themselves from stabbing someone because they can?

If you focus on the person over the ability, then you see a person. But if you focus on the ability, then you see "normals", "abnormal but approved", and "abnormal and unapproved" weapons. I prefer to help make more Professor Xaviers than Magnetos myself - lower body counts and less resources spent.

Modifié par Gazardiel, 08 janvier 2013 - 10:04 .

[Siharaa]

In terms of abuses by Templars; mages are being made Tranquil - essentially lobotomised - for spurious reasons, when it's supposed to be an absolute last resort. It is strongly implied that once made tranquil, some mages are sexually abused. In Kirkwall, Mages are not allowed to leave the Gallows (although they are in other parts of the country). Templars punish families who shelter 'apostate' mages from the Circle. Mages who make a bid for freedom are simply executed. 

Outside Kirkwall, Mages are not permitted to marry or have children. Any Knight Commander with a grudge can invoke the Rite of Anullment. Mages are tolerated if their behaviour is impeccable at all times.

If you were in their position, wouldn't you be desperate, and want to be free?

"People will fear mages. Period. It's only natural...you can keep going on an on how that is just chantry propaganda, but it's obvious that is not true."

Throughout history people have claimed that their political enemies have engaged in blood sacrifice, necromancy, eating babies etc. Usually as a justification for slaughtering innocent people.

Modifié par Siharaa, 08 janvier 2013 - 10:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I think not giving you the chance to earn their trust simply because you're a Mage does make you a bad person. It's one thing to distrust a certain person because of who they are -- Uldred being a vocal Libertarian and a slimeball -- and another to distrust Mages in general because they're Mages.

Actually it's not.
Becase a mage is NOT like me.

Trust is irrelevant. Risk and damage is.

MisterJB wrote...
Such as?

Apprentices go missing without explanations, when other apprentices can overhear of Templars killing maleficars in other missions and Tranquility has records -- plus you'd see them in the halls and the apprentices know of Mages made Tranquil.

Templars spying on Mages when they bathe.

Not that the latter is particularly condemning of the Circle of Ferelden in and of itself. It's an invasion of privacy, but nothing particularly damning.

Proof?
I don't recall that anywhere.

Unless it's from that crap comic, but that one is as valid as any fanfiction.

[Lotion Soronarr]

And FFs' ,quit overblowing everything out of proportions.

No, the Knight Commander cannot just call a RoA as he pleases.

No, mages are allowed to marry. Most just choose not to.



And mages are not innocent of the dangers they represent.

[Siharaa]

"Trust is irrelevant. Risk and damage is."

You don't think the Templars are capable of causing risk or damage?

Blowing things out of proportion? This is just a discussion about politics within a computer game, one that draws on historical precedent. Relax.

Can you cite an example of a Circle mage who married?

A Knight Commander is able to ask for the right of annulment or simply carry it out if there is no Grand Cleric. However the process is reliant on the KC being truthful - the Grand Cleric doesn't travel and ascertain every accusation. In Origins, the Knight Commander orders the RA - despite there being children within the tower who are perfectly safe, and the fact that the warden can resolve the situation without wholesale murder.

[TEWR]

Becase a mage is NOT like me.

They think, they feel, they love, they do things just the same as anyone else.

They just happen to have something not many other people have.

It's called being unique.

Risk and damage is.

Because a Mage hurling a fireball into the sky where it'll explode, thus signaling troops to move in, is going to cause a crapton of damage to the people fighting a horde of monsters hellbent on destruction itself.

Funny how you go "Risk and Damage is more important then trust" yet won't trust a Mage to help push back a race of creatures who carry an inherent risk -- in their unAwakened state at least -- and destroy the nation.

Proof?
I don't recall that anywhere.

Magi Origin. That's assuming it's true. Admittedly, this one is the result of a Mage going "Gerda told me this, I hope it's not true".

I'm not sure whether to believe it myself, though given how one Templar was reprimanded for being very perverted around females in the Tower... well... it's not totally out of the realm of possibility.

Thankfully the Templars in Ferelden's Circle will at least send the perverted Templars on dead-end jobs in the Bannorn. I assume if they're Alrik/Karras level, Gregoir would have them shipped to the equivalent of a court-martial.

nless it's from that crap comic, but that one is as valid as any fanfiction.

Disregard it all you want, it is canon unfortunately.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 janvier 2013 - 12:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Siharaa wrote...

"Trust is irrelevant. Risk and damage is."

You don't think the Templars are capable of causing risk or damage?

Not even close.

Can you cite an example of a Circle mage who married?

WoG has it that mages can marry, it's just that most choose not to.

A Knight Commander is able to ask for the right of annulment or simply carry it out if there is no Grand Cleric. However the process is reliant on the KC being truthful - the Grand Cleric doesn't travel and ascertain every accusation. In Origins, the Knight Commander orders the RA - despite there being children within the tower who are perfectly safe, and the fact that the warden can resolve the situation without wholesale murder.

It's not perfectly safe. That's kinda the point.
Demons can inhabit a mage without any outward signs.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Becase a mage is NOT like me.

They think, they feel, they love, they do things just the same as anyone else.
They just happen to have something not many other people have.
It's called being unique.

They are "unique" in a very, very bad way.

I trust a mage as much as I trust a carrier of a deadly desease. At the end of the day I don't really care who's fault it is or isn't. Guilt and justice are secondary to survival.

Funny how you go "Risk and Damage is more important then trust" yet won't trust a Mage to help push back a race of creatures who carry an inherent risk -- in their unAwakened state at least -- and destroy the nation.

If I though it was necessary, I'd risk it.
But we go back to being the general arfeter the battle - no one thought more mages were really needed. No one expected that many and that organized darkspawn.

Proof?
I don't recall that anywhere.

Magi Origin. That's assuming it's true. Admittedly, this one is the result of a Mage going "Gerda told me this, I hope it's not true".

I'm not sure whether to believe it myself, though given how one Templar was reprimanded for being very perverted around females in the Tower... well... it's not totally out of the realm of possibility.

I highly doubt it. Even searching a mages quarters is aparently a big deal.

Disregard it all you want, it is canon unfortunately.

And what do you do when canon contradicts canon?

[Siharaa]

"WoG has it that mages can marry, it's just that most choose not to"

That's the Grey Wardens. Mages are actively discouraged from marriage and if they have a child it is forcibly adopted and raised by the Chantry.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Hey man, if the Architect can do it, so can the Mages! =P

The Architect is, more likely than not, a thousand years old Tevinter Magister that once entered the Fade physically and invaded the city of the omnipotent Maker Himself and was cursed by Him.
Not a teenage girl regrowing limbs of dwarves, who are almost impervious to magic in the first place; despite only knowing a Fire spell a couple of second ago.

To the first, we've seen the Collective dealing with maleficar in their ranks.

I suspect they were concerned only about how openly those blood mages were being, not the blood magic itself.

They also have an entire group of Templars in their pocket -- Redcliffe's Templars -- so if they ever needed help dealing with someone in their ranks they knew to be a maleficar they could just "leak" information to those Templars that they trust.

Those templars are being paid to look the other way, that's all.

To the second, that Mage needed to research it because blood mages were settled near him doing just that. How can you fight against something if you don't understand it? That doesn't mean he'll do it himself, but in order to figure out a capable countermeasure he will need to research it.

And Howe was only taking the arling of Denerim to account for the chaos of the elven riots. Maker help you, don't tell me you genuinelly believe that.
Blind as a rock, this one is. (reference)
Afraid of accusing them without knowledge. AH, and I'm Andraste returned.

I think not giving you the chance to earn their trust simply because you're a Mage does make you a bad person. It's one thing to distrust a certain person because of who they are -- Uldred being a vocal Libertarian and a slimeball -- and another to distrust Mages in general because they're Mages.

Distrusting the people who can burn you alive with a flicker of the wrists or control your mind with a cut is only reasonable and healthy.
Besides, the place to earn trust is not when the entire kingdom depends on a flanking attempt. Just like you said, Uldred is a vocal Libertarian. Wynne was in much better relations with the Chantry.
And in the end, she was probrably right. Chances are Uldred wouldn't have lit the signal so Loghain couldn't be blamed for not charging.
An actual sound strategical decision from Cailan. Those are rare.

Apprentices go missing without explanations, when other apprentices can overhear of Templars killing maleficars in other missions and Tranquility has records -- plus you'd see them in the halls and the apprentices know of Mages made Tranquil.

They probrably just died in their Harrowing.

Templars spying on Mages when they bathe.

That was gossip. How would they even do that without making it obvious to the mages?

On the surface, sure she's a Mage supremacist. Peel away the layers however and you'll see she's that and deranged.

Not at all. She shouldn't be exempt from the responsabilities of her actions.

To which he promptly goes "No! The only one who can stop me is the Maker, if this is so wrong!"

Are you suggesting religious people are deranged?

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:26 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Siharaa wrote...

"WoG has it that mages can marry, it's just that most choose not to"

That's the Grey Wardens. Mages are actively discouraged from marriage and if they have a child it is forcibly adopted and raised by the Chantry.

No, that's mages.

[MisterJB]

Siharaa wrote...
A Knight Commander is able to ask for the right of annulment or simply carry it out if there is no Grand Cleric. However the process is reliant on the KC being truthful - the Grand Cleric doesn't travel and ascertain every accusation. In Origins, the Knight Commander orders the RA - despite there being children within the tower who are perfectly safe, and the fact that the warden can resolve the situation without wholesale murder.

The Chantry and Templars have a vetted interest in keeping the mages alive. If nothing else, because they are a valuable resource. The RoA is such a big deal that it was used only 17 times in 900 years, most certainly not because a KC simply carried a grudge.

As for "Broken Circle", the templars had no way to ascertain that the children, or any other mage, were alive. Truthfully, they only survived because a spirit of Faith decided to intervene, something the templars couldn't have predicted. There was a veritable army of demons, abominations and blood mages in the tower at the time, there really was no reason to believe any had sruvived. And when all the obvious dangers had been slain, Gregoir preferred to risk there being dormant demons inside any mage than risk killing an innocent.

The Warden can also walk to the top of Fort Drakon in his birthday suit, junk proudly flapping in the wind, and proceed to beat Urthemiel into submission with his bare hands (totally possible) but that doesn't mean any Grey Warden would be able to do the same. Likewise with the tower.

[Siharaa]

I quoted directly from the official wiki.