587 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

andy69156915 wrote...

I don't remember that. And rule# 1 of an internet argument is to provide links and sources to better prove your point and shut the opposition up. So... Do you have any links to shut me up?

You dont remember despite it being in the mage ending?



Observe 1:40 to 1:48

Now stop being a lazy **** and do your own research. this bit of information is hardly what you can call obscure

Hey now....let's keep it civil, kids.

Please. I know it can be difficult when dealing with the controvercy of the fictional issues of mage vs templar, but it's ultimately not worth it in the end....because it's fictional.

[Lazy Jer]

krul2k wrote...

mages escape no matter what side you pick, just like hawkes name becomes a rallying cry for mages even if you pick the templars.

That aside DK has a point the 3 mages you do save in the game will probably without a doubt be made tranquil

I don't know about that.  Cullen will probably ascend as the next Knight Commander following Meredith's lyrium bodywax.  At the interim if not on a permanent basis.  Cullen may take a stern stance with mages but he hasn't ever come off as unreasonable.  Plus he may come to the conclusion that punishing the mages who didn't rebel would only ferment further rebellion in the future.

Now they might be made tranquil after word comes down about the war, but at that point we're talking about two different things.  I'd paraphrase a comment from Tywin Lannister, but the statement in question doesn't come out until much later in the book series and I don't want to post any ASOIAF spoilers.

[Rinshikai10]

krul2k wrote...

Ach your no aloud to make sense man

Bit off topic, cant mind but do wee know how long it took for the Templars to break from the chantry from the events in kirkwall?

Battle of Kirkwall started and ended in 9:37 Dragon. We are now in 9:40 Dragon, so about three years.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 15 janvier 2013 - 02:44 .

[TEWR]

Bit off topic, cant mind but do wee know how long it took for the Templars to break from the chantry from the events in kirkwall?

They broke away from the Chantry after the events of DA:Asunder, which happened in 9:38 Dragon. The Mage-Templar War has been officially going on since the Battle of Kirkwall, but the majority of Templars didn't break away from the Chantry until 9:38 when they felt Divine Justinia V wasn't serving the interests of the Chantry.

Unofficially, it's been going on for hundreds of years.

[andy6915]

DKJaigen, cutting away the part of you acting like a dick for no reason, you proved me wrong.

[Plaintiff]

There is one justification for siding with the Templars, and that is the fact that mages are dangerous.

Personally, I find it a weak argument, certainly not enough to justify killing them over.

[LobselVith8]

krul2k wrote...

mages escape no matter what side you pick, just like hawkes name becomes a rallying cry for mages even if you pick the templars.

That aside DK has a point the 3 mages you do save in the game will probably without a doubt be made tranquil

Actually, Hawke becomes a symbol of brutal oppression if the Champion helps Meredith and her templars execute hundreds of people who are innocent of the actions that Anders alone is responsible for, showing what the templars are willing to do. Based on Varric's dialogue at the end, it seems Hawke becomes a hero to the templars if he (or she) aids Meredith in the Right of Annulment, while the mages view the Champion as a villain because of his participation in the mass killings of the mages.

And the verse is true, if Hawke protects the mages from Meredith's Right of Annulment by killing the templars who are trying to execute them.

[Siharaa]

Meredith was actively hunting for reasons to kill the mages and Annul the Circle. Granted, blowing up the Chantry would be a legitimate reason. *If* the Circle had done it.

love that Legacy of Aldenon quote btw.

[EChatty]

That's exactly right. IF the Circle had blown up the Chantry then she would have been right to call the RoA. Since it was a single rogue apostate who did it, she's entirely wrong to call it.

IMO, she should never have been posted at a Circle to begin with, not with her hatred of mages as strong as it is. But, OTOH, it's probably what got her the Knight Commander position as well.

[MisterJB]

Meredith doesn't hate mages. She fears them incredibly which leads to growing paranoia but it's obvious that even after the Idol ahs chipped away her insanity, she feels sorry for what she feels she must do to protect the innocent.
And she became Knight Commander because the previous one was murdered when he protested against the previous Viscont's despotical decisions. When the city guard attempted to kill or expell the Order from Kirkwall, Meredith took the leadership and deposed the Viscount.

Ironically, the previous Knight Commander was hesitant to speak against the previous Viscount because he felt that the Templars were not meant to meddle in wordly affairs.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

thats1evildude wrote...

Mages are dangerous and cannot be allowed to roam free. Also, the mages are almost certainly doomed anyway and siding with the templars minimizes casaulties.

Your statement contradict nature itself. You are basicly saying that the strong needs to be crushed by the weak. The mages have power and thus the right to rule, like the Tevinter. In Thedas the masses/weak/non-magi has strength in numbers and mages in individual strength. The chantry is a bunch of religious people worshipping a fantasy figure, so they dont have any "right" to do anything - their power is based on superstition and using weak-minded sheep to do their bidding. Magic is real in Thedas - so mages have the right to rule. It boils down to "Survival of the fittest". The templars have no right to imprison the strong because they are strong. The templars are jealous religious fanatics and deserve death for the sake of progress of mankind.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Meredith doesn't hate mages. She fears them incredibly which leads to growing paranoia but it's obvious that even after the Idol ahs chipped away her insanity, she feels sorry for what she feels she must do to protect the innocent.

Murdering mages isn't protecting the innocent.

MisterJB wrote...

And she became Knight Commander because the previous one was murdered when he protested against the previous Viscont's despotical decisions. When the city guard attempted to kill or expell the Order from Kirkwall, Meredith took the leadership and deposed the Viscount.

Opinion on the Viscount ranges from some viewing him as ""a tyrant who was worse than a vicious thug" to others seeing him as "a man who tried to free Kirkwall". Also, it's pointed out that the templars only became involved when Viscount Perrin Threnhold tried to expel the templars from Kirkwall, which led to Knight-Commander Guylian being killed.

MisterJB wrote...

Ironically, the previous Knight Commander was hesitant to speak against the previous Viscount because he felt that the Templars were not meant to meddle in wordly affairs.

While the Divine, who was a friend of the Empror, had other ideas, which led to Viscount Threnhold and his mercenary army retaliating.

[Lazy Jer]

The thought occurs to me that technically speaking, Meredith's actions weren't even lawful. The Right of Annulment requires authorization from Val Royaux. Now her previous requests had been turned down because her suspicion wasn't enough, but if she sends word back to Orlais that the whole flippin' Chantry done got blow'd up, I'll be she'd have been able to get what she wanted legitimately, or at least the Divine would have thought about it a lot more.

So in all honesty, but siding with the mages you are upholding Chantry law. But then you're breaking it by letting the mages go. So six of one, a half-dozen of the other.

[Rinshikai10]

@Lazy Jer

It was my understanding that the RoA had to be allowed by the Grand Cleric, not the Divine.

[EChatty]

Whether Meredith hated mages or was frightened of them, it still precluded her from being in charge of a Circle of them. For the simple reason that you are already prejudiced against them and more likely to overlook the Templars under your command when they flagrantly break Chantry law by tranquiling Harrowed mages, raping said tranquiled mages and beating them for speaking out against being abused (all of which Meredith did).

Lazy Jer-No, Meredith's actions weren't lawful. She was calling the RoA on the Circle mages-who had absolutely nothing to do with blowing up the Chantry. That was done by Anders, and Anders alone (with Hawke's unwitting help [or maybe Hawke had a suspicion, who knows?]). She used that as an excuse to justify murdering the rest of the mages who had absolutely nothing to do with it.

[IanPolaris]

Lazy Jer wrote...

The thought occurs to me that technically speaking, Meredith's actions weren't even lawful. The Right of Annulment requires authorization from Val Royaux. Now her previous requests had been turned down because her suspicion wasn't enough, but if she sends word back to Orlais that the whole flippin' Chantry done got blow'd up, I'll be she'd have been able to get what she wanted legitimately, or at least the Divine would have thought about it a lot more.

So in all honesty, but siding with the mages you are upholding Chantry law. But then you're breaking it by letting the mages go. So six of one, a half-dozen of the other.

Actually that was my initial thought as well, and if you read the codex entries regarding Chantry structure and chain of command (and RoA), it seems reasonable.

However, per direct WoG, it was legal (abeit on the shakiest of grounds).  Apparently if the Grand Cleric is "unavailable" then any KC can authorize their own RoA if they have a bad hair day.  Given that horrible precedent, is it any WONDER the mages decided to vote for their independence a year later especially with Lambert essentially going "Meredith II" on them?

As for the original question, there is no moral justification for sideing with Meredith (which weakens DA2 as a game).  Even if you think the Templars are right, and even if you agree withe the circle system, the manifest fact remains (as voiced  by Sebastian), the circle was not responsible for the this act of terrorism.  Meredith is ordering the wholesale slaughter of all circle mages in Kirkwall (which she apparently had been itching to do for a while) FOR A CRIME THEY DID NOT COMMIT.

At the same time Meredith blatently ignores the obviously guilty Warden-Mage that is standing right in front of her! (Anders).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Lazy Jer

It was my understanding that the RoA had to be allowed by the Grand Cleric, not the Divine.

That's right, but with the Grand Cleric dead, the next up in the Chain of Command would be the Divine.  Given that the circle mages were contained in the Gallows (save for a very small number who could be rounded up) [remember the circle had been in lockdown for most of Act III], there was no reason for KC Meredith not to ask the Divine for guidance and that is what she should have done!

In fact it probably was good for Meredith that she became a lyrium statue in the end, because legal or not (and per the WoG it was legal), the Divine would have come down on Meredith like a ton of bricks for her actions.  Of that I am reasonable sure (esp given the events of Asunder).  One would normally assume that like any chain of command, if the Grand Cleric dies, the ranking mother (whoever is left) would assume the mantle but apparently it doesn't work that way per WoG.  [I also suspect that had Anders not acted, Meredith herself would have 'arranged' an unfortunate accident for Elthina before much longer given the idol and her growing paranoia.]

-Polaris

[Lazy Jer]

Oooohhhh yeah that's right. Is up to the Grand Cleric. The reason why Madcap Meredith was petitioning the divine was because Elthina said "No" (for which she receives absolutely no credit from the Elthina-haters, but that's neither here nor there). For some reason I was thinking of how the KC of Ferelden needed to wait for authorization, but now that I think of it their Grand Cleric wasn't just across the street the way Kirkwall's was.

[IanPolaris]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Oooohhhh yeah that's right. Is up to the Grand Cleric. The reason why Madcap Meredith was petitioning the divine was because Elthina said "No" (for which she receives absolutely no credit from the Elthina-haters, but that's neither here nor there). For some reason I was thinking of how the KC of Ferelden needed to wait for authorization, but now that I think of it their Grand Cleric wasn't just across the street the way Kirkwall's was.

It's not that Elthina isn't getting any credit for saying 'no', but honestly how much credit does a person deserve for NOT being a genocidal maniac?  Even Knight Captain Cullen was openly saying a RoA wasn't really called for (and he's hardly a pro-mage softy).  Elthina is derided (and rightfully so) for FAILING to exercise leadership and control over someone that is supposed to be her subordinate.  Elthina and only Elthina has the authority to mitigate the situation and sack Meredith (or at least discipline her) and she fails to act.  What's more (see Mother Petrice) Elthina seems constitutionally incapable of such leadership.

Elthina would be a fine Parish Priest(ess) but as a political leader, she is far, far beyond her depth. 

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Murdering mages isn't protecting the innocent.

One could make a strong case for it, in fact.

[IanPolaris]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Murdering mages isn't protecting the innocent.

One could make a strong case for it, in fact.

Not really.  Only in Kirkwall do mages go "abomination" whenever they get a nosebleed, and we know that the veil is extremely thin to non-existant in Kirkwall because of the blood magic that was done there during the Tevinter Imperium.  Putting a circle there is like farming over a toxic waste dump.  Likewise the dream sequence of Feynriel is supposed to tell us what mages have to fight everynight...but that's an exceptional case too.  Feynriel is a dreamer that attacts unusually powerful demons...so this is NOT what most mages have to face every night.  DA2 does this a lot....it tells the Templar side of things but it does so by giving exceptional worst cases while being very sloppy about telling us they are in fact worst cases.

Not only that but societies without circles can and do exist just fine with mages, so given that fact you can not say that murdering mages is tantamount to protecting the innocent.  Of course this is what the Chantry has done for a thousand years:  They've combined justifiable hatred and revulsion over the Blood-Magic Empire of Ancient Tevinter along with the apparently extremely rare case of a trained mage going bad to justify a magical powergrab for themselves.

I could go on, and have months ago, but I doubt that anyone is still bothering to listen any more.

-Polaris

[MisterJB]

Right, I could say a thing or two about "magical powergrab" and "free mages societies" but, let's face it, we will reach that point eventually in the other thread.

Therefore, I will simply clarify that I was referring to the very real possibility of the population of Kirkwall walking into the Gallows to demand some explanations over why their Grand Cleric was dead which would lead to fighting and the lives of many of Kirkwall's citizens being lost. Therefore, it is logically sound to simply have the templars, who are specially trained for these situations, eliminate the mage populaion before a confrontation can happen.