587 réponses à ce sujet

[b09boy]

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case.

As to the ongoing idea of templars=bad, mages=good, nobody should take away freedom under any circumstance, I'd say you're overly idealistic. We don't have a real parallel to this in reality so the have to think of things in terms of what's going on in this fictional world. First off, mages really don't have it all that bad. In Origins we encountered the family of one mage who was allowed to conduct research away from the tower and even begin a family. Many are allowed to become political advisers and the like. Two of our companions flat out request to be allowed to leave with us and are granted permission because they've earned trust. It's people like Jowan, Anders, and Uldred who keep seeking forbidden knowledge or freedom from oppression which really cause problems. And what happens? Yeeeeeaaaaah...

But I digress. Let's try to make a parallel to reality. Imagine a person who is capable of nuclear-sized devastation if they ever become too emotional - too angry, sad, greedy, lustful, prideful, hungry. Imagine a teenager like that. This is the reality of mages in Dragon Age. And you think it would be a good idea to allow such people to go unsupervised, untrained, completely free? The wonder isn't that they're kept under lock and key until they have some semblance of trust, the wonder is that they're allowed to live at all. Our reality would have probably put laws in place to eliminate them flat out a thousand years ago, or at best to brainwash (or lobotomize) and weaponize a couple.

[CrimsonZephyr]

MisterJB wrote...

Right, I could say a thing or two about "magical powergrab" and "free mages societies" but, let's face it, we will reach that point eventually in the other thread.

Therefore, I will simply clarify that I was referring to the very real possibility of the population of Kirkwall walking into the Gallows to demand some explanations over why their Grand Cleric was dead which would lead to fighting and the lives of many of Kirkwall's citizens being lost. Therefore, it is logically sound to simply have the templars, who are specially trained for these situations, eliminate the mage populaion before a confrontation can happen.

That's totalitarian bull**** and you know it.

If a mob wants to commit genocide against mages, it's not the job of the Templars to assist them. Just because they're mundanes and their targets are mages doesn't give them license to commit mass murder, or for Templars to do it in their place. It's like you're saying we wouldn't want mass murdering street thugs to get killed in the attempt, after all.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 19 janvier 2013 - 12:07 .

[MisterJB]

I said it was logically sound, not morally.

[IanPolaris]

b09boy wrote...

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case.

Even if we agreed with this and even if we were to philosophically agree with the Templars (which I don't in either way) you would still be completely wrong because this is irrelevent.

What is relevent is that KC Meredith is using an act of terrorism by a REBEL Grey Warden Mage, ie. someone NOT of the circle to justify the slaughter of every circle mage in Kirkwall.  Not only is mass punishment manifestly unjust on the face of it, but Meredith completely ignores the one person who is undeniably guilty.  Sebastian (who is hardly pro-mage) is outraged at Meredith at this point.

That is what makes siding with the Templars in the end unjustifiable.  It is not justifiable to punish someone for a crime that someone else has clearly committed no matter what the so-called mob may want.  The fact is that Meredith was just looking for an excuse to slaughter mages (and while harsh, the game makes that very clear).

-Polaris

[CrimsonZephyr]

MisterJB wrote...

I said it was logically sound, not morally.

There are reasons besides morals (which are discarded far too quickly in any discussion of conflict) to not incite or assist in mob violence. Reasons of civilization and rule of law are among them. The Templars cannot call themselves protectors of civilization and enforcers of the law if they assist a mob in their aggressive pogrom against a minority. It makes them thugs, and little more than murderers themselves. And considerations of morality are, in themselves, part and parcel of logic.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[dragonflight288]

And my opinion is that morality must never be tossed away, even in duty, otherwise you already lost all right to call yourself or your group moral.

My personal opinion is that if Meredith said she had evidence that Orsino was hiding blood mages, she wanted to search the tower and see if anyone may or may not have helped Anders or if he had any sympathizers who would turn copy-cat, then I would be quite inclined to help her. Had she argued that all she wanted was to insure the mages were safe from the hypothetical mob she mentioned, and she expected mages support, as the death of the Grand Cleric and the Chantry would have serious repercussions, I would take her arguments seriously.

But she does not argue anything based on logic or morality. She is completely intent on punishing those who are not involved, content to ignore the guilty person in front of her as she has a lot of other mages to slaughter, and her arguments revolve around appeasing a hypothetical mob when her very job description is not only protecting the world from mages, but protecting mages from the world as well, she loses all justifiable reasons to side with her.

She has no moral ground to stand on, and those under her command (under my modern point of view) had a moral obligation to relieve her of duty (Cullen, I'm looking at you...and not just after the slaughter takes place.)

Meredith wanted the mages dead. That is made very clear, even before the Chantry is blown up if you talk to Kerras.

[b09boy]

IanPolaris wrote...

b09boy wrote...

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case.

Even if we agreed with this and even if we were to philosophically agree with the Templars (which I don't in either way) you would still be completely wrong because this is irrelevent.

What is relevent is that KC Meredith is using an act of terrorism by a REBEL Grey Warden Mage, ie. someone NOT of the circle to justify the slaughter of every circle mage in Kirkwall.  Not only is mass punishment manifestly unjust on the face of it, but Meredith completely ignores the one person who is undeniably guilty.  Sebastian (who is hardly pro-mage) is outraged at Meredith at this point.

That is what makes siding with the Templars in the end unjustifiable.  It is not justifiable to punish someone for a crime that someone else has clearly committed no matter what the so-called mob may want.  The fact is that Meredith was just looking for an excuse to slaughter mages (and while harsh, the game makes that very clear).

-Polaris

It's as though you ignored half of what I wrote.  Meredith's reasoning is completely flawed and indefensible, and if that were the only argument to be made I'd agree that there is no justification.  But you are purposely ignoring two facts.  1) Siding with the mages is prolonging the inevitable and ultimately costs more lives, including htose you are attempting to save, as they are in an impossible situation and cannot hope to hold the city against future reinforcement, and don't.  2) Independent of Meredith's late reasoning, the Rite of Annulment should have been put into action many years previous when it was obvious there was major irredeemable corruption both in blood magic and abominations within the Circle so siding with the mages is ultimately siding with a group which is so twisted and corrupt they should have already been dead years ago for altogether different reasons.

[CrimsonZephyr]

b09boy wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

b09boy wrote...

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case.

Even if we agreed with this and even if we were to philosophically agree with the Templars (which I don't in either way) you would still be completely wrong because this is irrelevent.

What is relevent is that KC Meredith is using an act of terrorism by a REBEL Grey Warden Mage, ie. someone NOT of the circle to justify the slaughter of every circle mage in Kirkwall.  Not only is mass punishment manifestly unjust on the face of it, but Meredith completely ignores the one person who is undeniably guilty.  Sebastian (who is hardly pro-mage) is outraged at Meredith at this point.

That is what makes siding with the Templars in the end unjustifiable.  It is not justifiable to punish someone for a crime that someone else has clearly committed no matter what the so-called mob may want.  The fact is that Meredith was just looking for an excuse to slaughter mages (and while harsh, the game makes that very clear).

-Polaris

It's as though you ignored half of what I wrote.  Meredith's reasoning is completely flawed and indefensible, and if that were the only argument to be made I'd agree that there is no justification.  But you are purposely ignoring two facts.  1) Siding with the mages is prolonging the inevitable and ultimately costs more lives, including htose you are attempting to save, as they are in an impossible situation and cannot hope to hold the city against future reinforcement, and don't.  2) Independent of Meredith's late reasoning, the Rite of Annulment should have been put into action many years previous when it was obvious there was major irredeemable corruption both in blood magic and abominations within the Circle so siding with the mages is ultimately siding with a group which is so twisted and corrupt they should have already been dead years ago for altogether different reasons.

Having a faction of blood mages embedded within a Circle isn't sufficient cause to murder those that are not. We don't even have an account of how "corrupt" the Circle truly was. The entire organization is so closed off by the Templars that any scrutiny of Meredith's claims are impossible. The only mages we ever meet are criminals and escapees Hawke is specifically contracted out to hunt. Meredith can literally make any claim she wants about the mages and because they're so isolated, no one is in a position to tell her differently.

But moreover, you're missing the point. Yes, supporting the mages will prolong a conflict. So will supporting the Templars. The mages aren't trying to hold the city, they're trying to escape. And wars cost lives; get over it. Simply kowtowing to tyrants can save lives too. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be fought.

[b09boy]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Having a faction of blood mages embedded within a Circle isn't sufficient cause to murder those that are not.

Considering the sheer amount of damage they end up doing to the rest of the city and its people, this is highly arguable.  You are coming from the perspective that there are innocents within the Circle, which is true.  However, one must think of the innocents outside the Circle, whom the Templars are also responsible for protecting.=, and the potential for abominations to break out among them.

We don't even have an account of how "corrupt" the Circle truly was.

Are you being serious?  This is like standing in the middle of a burning building and saying, "Let's not jump to conclusions about a renovation project, we don't even know the statistical damage yet."

Meredith can literally make any claim she wants about the mages and because they're so isolated, no one is in a position to tell her differently.

Thing about Meredith, despite how crazy she end up being, she also turns out to be entirely correct about her suspicions of the mages.

But moreover, you're missing the point. Yes, supporting the mages will prolong a conflict. So will supporting the Templars.

What?  No it doesn't.  The conflict within Kirkwall pretty well ends when the Templars take control.

The mages aren't trying to hold the city, they're trying to escape. And wars cost lives; get over it. Simply kowtowing to tyrants can save lives too. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be fought.

What are the mages fighting for, exactly?  Freedom?  That's utterly insipid when any emotional child with magical prowess can, without guidance, become an abomination capable of destroying major fortresses and towns.  So if not freedom then what?

This is the rebellion vs. tyrannical empire fallacy, where the rebellion is good and the empire is evil, but once the empire and all its laws, systems, police, health care, etc. is brought down, what is it being replaced with?  Replacing something you don't like with something even worse is not a good thing.

[DKJaigen]

No your simply making assumptions and present them as fact. But its not Tyranny vs freedom but its logic vs stupidity. How the templars treat the mages would make anyone rebel. And as a police officer myself i say this: THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO POLICE A PEOPLE. Your opnion is wrong and so is of all the templar supporters because their are beter ways to police a people.

[CrimsonZephyr]

"What? No it doesn't. The conflict within Kirkwall pretty well ends when the Templars take control."

The war is still raging. Is it really worth supporting tyranny Thedas-wide so that one city full of the corrupt can sleep a little easier knowing their safety is ill-deserved on a foundation of oppression?

"Considering the sheer amount of damage they end up doing to the rest of the city and its people, this is highly arguable. You are coming from the perspective that there are innocents within the Circle, which is true. However, one must think of the innocents outside the Circle, whom the Templars are also responsible for protecting.=, and the potential for abominations to break out among them."

The mages weren't even in rebellion until Meredith decided to provoke them into it. You'd have to be out of your goddamn mind to think that inflaming tensions would do the so-called innocent mundanes any good. Orsino was resisting having the entire Circle searched because Meredith makes that kind of demand every single day. Her paranoia is so great, every little mishap calls for a massive response. None of that would have happened if Meredith accepted Orsino's surrender, or better yet, if she had simply arrested Anders and locked down the Gallows.

And count again during the mage ending. There are more mages than blood mages -- Meredith and her ilk were cutting down a lot of perfectly law-abiding people there, simply because Meredith did what Meredith wanted.

And fighting for "freedom" might seem insipid, and it is if you take that at face value. The thing is that the mages are leveraging their power and rebellion for concessions. They can't do that while they're locked up in the Circle. They will never obtain out and out freedom in one go, as in no Circle no Templars, but after a while, if they get their **** together and start winning, they can force the Templars to the negotiating table and get meaningful concessions. That's how real wars are fought.

You're operating under the reactionary delusion that rebellion against tyranny will certainly bring more tyranny, and therefore the certainty of present oppression is better than the possibility of future liberty. That's utter rubbish. If you take the short term view on such matters, no change could ever take place and society would stagnate as men feared the possibility of change. If change takes time to happen, so be it, but it has to happen, and hiding behind fears of imagined future tyrannies is no way to be.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 21 janvier 2013 - 02:01 .

[b09boy]

DKJaigen wrote...

No your simply making assumptions and present them as fact. 

Such as?

But its not Tyranny vs freedom but its logic vs stupidity. How the templars treat the mages would make anyone rebel.

Then tell me the alternative.  As I have already asked.

And as a police officer myself

I really don't care what you are or even really believe you.  Arguments of authority over the internet are worthless.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The war is still raging.

Different battle, different war.  The circumstances behind the current war and the Kirkwall incident are very much different.  You might as well be bringing up the Ferelden incident on top of that.

The mages weren't even in rebellion until Meredith decided to provoke them into it.

And yet still caused a lot of damage before the rebellion.

You'd have to be out of your goddamn mind to think that inflaming tensions would do the so-called innocent mundanes any good.

And you'd have to be out of yours to allow walking bombs triggered by emotions loose on the world.

Orsino was

A blood mage who supported at least one other murderous blood mage long before the finale.

And count again during the mage ending. There are more mages than blood mages -- Meredith and her ilk were cutting down a lot of perfectly law-abiding people there, simply because Meredith did what Meredith wanted.

And the blood mages weren't?  Are they any better than Templar Joe?

The thing is that the mages are leveraging their power and rebellion for concessions.

Like what?  What do they want?

You're operating under the reactionary delusion that rebellion against tyranny will certainly bring more tyranny, and therefore the certainty of present oppression is better than the possibility of future liberty. That's utter rubbish. If you take the short term view on such matters, no change could ever take place and society would stagnate as men feared the possibility of change. If change takes time to happen, so be it, but it has to happen, and hiding behind fears of imagined future tyrannies is no way to be.

LOLno.  I operate under the logic that rebellion has to have a purpose or all it brings is ruin.  Compare: the fall of the Roman Empire to the beginning of the United States of America.  The mages are utterly directionless.  They want freeedom for the sake of freedom, which is insipid to the nth degree.

[CrimsonZephyr]

"LOLno. I operate under the logic that rebellion has to have a purpose or all it brings is ruin. Compare: the fall of the Roman Empire to the beginning of the United States of America. The mages are utterly directionless. They want freeedom for the sake of freedom, which is insipid to the nth degree."

Your example is utterly brainless. The fall of the Roman Empire was with direction. It fell because numerous hordes of barbarians driven from their homes in Eurasia settled formerly Roman lands and because of Roman military weakness, they were able to settle them. Eventually, through further military victories, they were able to force Rome to recognize them as independent kingdoms and eventually conquer Rome itself. There was definitely a direction there.

Eventually, the mages will have to settle for reforms in the Circle system. They have to aim high, towards complete freedom, because the middle is where a compromise lies, and if they aim too low, they'll get a rawer deal. But the mage rebellion proper does, in fact, have a goal -- the separation from the Chantry and the reformation of the Circle system. Eventually, they may have to negotiate on some of those aims, but it isn't rebellion for rebellion's sake. You're conflating their aims with Anders' aims. The mages in Kirkwall were not rebels, they were fighting for their lives when Meredith proscribed them for a crime they did not commit.

And the blood mages were ordinary criminals. "Templar Joe" was a member of what Meredith turned into a death squad. Yes, blood mages hurt innocents. Criminals hurt innocents. But the Templars went into the Gallows with the express intent to kill everyone in there -- innocents and guilty, and children. You're comparing aimless murderers to perpetrators of a final solution. There was no organized army of blood mages ready to wipe out a neighborhood. Most of them were solitary murderers, easily dispatched once discovered and caught.

[DKJaigen]

And you'd have to be out of yours to allow walking bombs triggered by emotions loose on the world.

An argument with no real basis. If mages where such time bombs they would never build the most powerful empire in the world. And mundanes even with the lack of this so called handicap never managed to achieve anything the tevinter imperium did.

And to eliminate 95% of all the problems within the templar order you only need secularism. The nobility and royalty will threath the mages as valuable resource and will try to accomdate them.

[dragonflight288]

An argument with no real basis. If mages where such time bombs they would never build the most powerful empire in the world. And mundanes even with the lack of this so called handicap never managed to achieve anything the tevinter imperium did.

Slightly off topic here, but I beg your pardon! The dwarves had the most powerful empire in the world. lol, okay, I know they had a very strong one but not Tevinter strong.

Thought this debate could use a little humor.

b09boy wrote....



Then tell me the alternative. As I have already asked.

Here's an alternative. Dismiss the templars entirely from watching the mages, and put another group in with their same training. Through Alistair we know that lyrium is not required. I know Gaider is trying to back-up on that and say it is, but it is in the game, thus making it canon. So remove the drug addiction.

Then, mages will be required to go to the Circle to control their magic. Don't tell them day-in or day-out that they're cursed in the sight of the maker simply for being born. Don't watch them at all times like when they bathe (apprentice mentions that in origins, says the templars watch her bathe.) Also allow mages to be visited by family members who actually wish to visit, compared to the ones who hate their children because they've been taught to by the Chantry.

Also make it so mages don't need special permission to marry. Wilhelm earned his right to marry and live outside the Circle because he fought against Orlais, but most mages don't ever get that chance. Only 7 mages made it to Ostagar, and Gregoire thought that was too many. And any children the mages do have are removed from them, as chantry property (Wynne and Rhys.) There's absolutely no need to make mages traumatized about having a family, and if their child isn't a mage, that child will likely be prepared to be made a templar without ever once knowing their parents.

And it wouldn't hurt to let the mages go on vacation throughout their country would it? Sure the apprentices would need to be supervised, but it's also completely unnecessary to ban mages from ever going outside.

Also, should the templars remain in control, let the Grand Cleric's or a committee of Chantry brother's and sister's decide who gets promoted. The Knight-Commander can make suggestions, but we may end up with cases where Meredith promoted those who shared her extremist views, and never investigated her charges. Templars also need to be regularly investigated, but randomly so they don't know when it'll happen.

Tranquility to volunteers is one thing, but only the First Enchanter should decide when it'll be used as a punishment on mages. But if the templars continue to hold influence or power over when it's used as a punishment, then allow the mages to make templars tranquil as well, as a punishment for abusing authority.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Through Alistair we know that lyrium is not required. I know Gaider is trying to back-up on that and say it is, but it is in the game, thus making it canon. So remove the drug addiction.

No, we don't. Against Alistair's word, we have the entirety of lore of DA. Not to mention that in "Those who Speak", Alistair makes a remark about using Lyrium in order to use Templars powers whereas before he couldn't.
It's a possibility worthy of discussion, not canon.

Don't tell them day-in or day-out that they're cursed in the sight of the maker simply for being born.

But that helps keep them under control.
I know people make the connection with real world religious dogma that has lead homosexuals; amongst others; to suicide but unlike in our world where most of the things we are warned against by religion are truly not dangerous at all, in Thedas the Chantry warns against real danger and it's in everyone's best intention to minimize the chances of a mage abusing his powers.
Fear of Divine Retribution is much more likely to produce results than trying to teach people of the value inherent in any human life.

Don't watch them at all times like when they bathe (apprentice mentions that in origins, says the templars watch her bathe.)

C'mon, that was gossip. It's not true.

Wilhelm earned his right to marry and live outside the Circle because he fought against Orlais, but most mages don't ever get that chance.

And his grandaugther was possessed by a demon. There is a lesson to be learned here.

And it wouldn't hurt to let the mages go on vacation throughout their country would it? Sure the apprentices would need to be supervised, but it's also completely unnecessary to ban mages from ever going outside.

That only happens in Kirkwall. In Ferelden, we see Wynne, Irving and others mages, Finn and Ines walking outside without Templar supervision.
In the White Spire, we are told mages were allowed to visit the city and buy souvenirs.

Tranquility to volunteers is one thing, but only the First Enchanter should decide when it'll be used as a punishment on mages.

If only the First Enchanter decides when it will be used as punishment, then it will never be used.
That power should be shared with the Knight Commander.

[TEWR]

And his grandaugther was possessed by a demon

Only if the Warden allows it.

That power should be shared with the Knight Commander.

It is. In DAO's Mage Origin, Lily tells you that she saw the writ for Jowan's Tranquility bearing Gregoir's seal and Irving's signature -- or vice versa. I only know they both signed off on it.

But you don't get that happening in Kirkwall, where Meredith doesn't even bother to investigate the Tranquil Mages popping up with no record of their being approved for the Rite. And that's at best. At worst, she signed off on them behind Orsino's back.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:33 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Through Alistair we know that lyrium is not required. I know Gaider is trying to back-up on that and say it is, but it is in the game, thus making it canon. So remove the drug addiction.

No, we don't. Against Alistair's word, we have the entirety of lore of DA. Not to mention that in "Those who Speak", Alistair makes a remark about using Lyrium in order to use Templars powers whereas before he couldn't.
It's a possibility worthy of discussion, not canon. 

Or Gaider decided to change things since Origins, which he has been prone to do on many occasions.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:53 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And his grandaugther was possessed by a demon

Only if the Warden allows it.

Looking at the situation, it is more likely that it was going to happen if the Warden didn't step in.  Or died to the demon.  Regardless, bad situation to leave a demon in the basement with your family unaware.

As to the entire "Lyrium isn't needed for Templar abilities", that seems to have been changed so talking about it like it's still canon is about the same as wondering how Cerberus will ally Shepard in ME 3.  Besides, the majority of Wardens are chugging it anyway on a regular basis.

[TEWR]

Regardless, bad situation to leave a demon in the basement with your family unaware.

To be fair, Wilhelm was going to send it back to the Fade or kill it. The only problem was that Shale decided to play Whack-A-Mage before he got a chance to do it, much less warn his family about it.

Also, he did trap the Demon in an area of his basement for 30 years and the Demon herself says that she can't undo the magical wards -- and it seems the girl couldn't either, if the Demon had to ask for the Warden to help.

So even if she had possessed the girl, she still would've been stuck there.

[BlueMagitek]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Regardless, bad situation to leave a demon in the basement with your family unaware.

To be fair, Wilhelm was going to send it back to the Fade or kill it. The only problem was that Shale decided to play Whack-A-Mage before he got a chance to do it, much less warn his family about it.

Also, he did trap the Demon in an area of his basement for 30 years and the Demon herself says that she can't undo the magical wards -- and it seems the girl couldn't either, if the Demon had to ask for the Warden to help.

So even if she had possessed the girl, she still would've been stuck there.

Well you can't really be fair about a situation like this.  It's like someone creating some amateur explosive weaponry and leaving it in his attic.  Then he's hit by a car and one of his grandchildren come very close to setting it off.  He may have been careful with it while he was alive, and he may have taken a ton of precatures about it, but he still had explosives in close proximity to other people with no contingency plan. 

You don't believe the father would have gone down for her?  Or asked for Templars or the Circle to help with it?  If Templars are as bad as a lot of people here believe, they should be jumping for a chance to discredit a free mage.  In this case, the Templar almost certainly notice the 30+ year old dead cat and possessed girl, but she's still killed because of Wilhem's irresponsibility.

No one is blaming him for getting killed by a golem.  That isn't something one usually plans on.  But if you're working with something dangerous, you need to have something, even if it's a letter to your family saying "In event of my demise, stay the **** out of the basement and send for the First Enchanter". 

[TEWR]

You don't believe the father would have gone down for her?

Eventually, perhaps, assuming the girl didn't return of her own volition.

Or asked for Templars or the Circle to help with it?

If they were asked for help, then there wouldn't have been much of an issue with the Demon because they would've been able to deal with her easily. They could probably hurl fireballs and anti-magic at Kitty from the other side of the barrier and take her out while she's going "Nooooo!!!!!".

But if you're working with something dangerous, you need to have something, even if it's a letter to your family saying "In event of my demise, stay the **** out of the basement and send for the First Enchanter".

Ah, but Matthias did know about what was in there. Remember, Wilhelm's journal talks about Matthias coming and going and almost being killed by some of the "traps" -- Demons. Matthias knows about this and will tell the Warden of it, and Wilhelm even made certain that his traps would recognize his own bloodline and not attack.

In addition, the girl only ran to the area because the Darkspawn were attacking and she was scared. So even if they had known -- and let's assume the Circle didn't deal with it for whatever reason -- the girl would've still run there because she was scared. People don't really think during those situations.

[BlueMagitek]

I am afraid I cannot tell if you are being serious or sarcastic. :/

Regardless, old man Wilhelm was irresponsible for that. And Shale agrees. =D

[TEWR]

I am afraid I cannot tell if you are being serious or sarcastic. :/

on which part? I mean, I'm being completely serious for all of it. But which part made you question the seriousness of it?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 janvier 2013 - 04:10 .

[BlueMagitek]

The middle part, really.