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[TEWR]

Remember, the barrier kept Kitty from leaving. I'd conjecture that since people can freely pass through it their magic could as well.

Unless it sealed itself when the Warden entered? I haven't done Honnleath in a while.

[dragonflight288]

The Warden could leave whenever they wished. The ward simply kept Kitty in there. The girl was an idiot and refused to leave the talking cat, and may have been slightly enthralled. Whether she was a mage or not, I can't say. We all know demons, once outside the Fade, can possess anything they want. Sophia Dryden, corpses and trees being good examples.

Chances are, the girl was simply the first mortal Kitty bumped into, and the demon latched onto her.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

b09boy wrote...

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case.

Even if we agreed with this and even if we were to philosophically agree with the Templars (which I don't in either way) you would still be completely wrong because this is irrelevent.

What is relevent is that KC Meredith is using an act of terrorism by a REBEL Grey Warden Mage, ie. someone NOT of the circle to justify the slaughter of every circle mage in Kirkwall.  Not only is mass punishment manifestly unjust on the face of it, but Meredith completely ignores the one person who is undeniably guilty.  Sebastian (who is hardly pro-mage) is outraged at Meredith at this point.

That is what makes siding with the Templars in the end unjustifiable.  It is not justifiable to punish someone for a crime that someone else has clearly committed no matter what the so-called mob may want.  The fact is that Meredith was just looking for an excuse to slaughter mages (and while harsh, the game makes that very clear).

-Polaris

Polaris, I'd say that is irrelevant.

First of all, if the circle is corrupted - and there's every reason to belive it is - then Anullment is the logical step. Excuse is just that and it is not really important in the grand scheme of thigs.
Lets not forgt that the idea of Anullment was thrown before - as there are cleary plenty of people who tought the circle was alreay too far gone.

The second thing to note is Anderses guilt. We know (or do we?) that he was acting alone. Does Meredith? Does anyone else? For all the templars know Anders was a deliberate agent of the mages.
By killing Elthina, Anders removed the one who could stop the Anullment.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

And you'd have to be out of yours to allow walking bombs triggered by emotions loose on the world.

An argument with no real basis. If mages where such time bombs they would never build the most powerful empire in the world. And mundanes even with the lack of this so called handicap never managed to achieve anything the tevinter imperium did.

And to eliminate 95% of all the problems within the templar order you only need secularism. The nobility and royalty will threath the mages as valuable resource and will try to accomdate them.

2 arguments with no real basis.

Mages being dangerous and waling bombs does not preclude them from forming a tyranical empire.

And secularity is not a magical cure for everything nor is it a great idea to begin with. Especially not in TheDas.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

And you'd have to be out of yours to allow walking bombs triggered by emotions loose on the world.

An argument with no real basis. If mages where such time bombs they would never build the most powerful empire in the world. And mundanes even with the lack of this so called handicap never managed to achieve anything the tevinter imperium did.

And to eliminate 95% of all the problems within the templar order you only need secularism. The nobility and royalty will threath the mages as valuable resource and will try to accomdate them.

2 arguments with no real basis.

Mages being dangerous and waling bombs does not preclude them from forming a tyranical empire.

And secularity is not a magical cure for everything nor is it a great idea to begin with. Especially not in TheDas.

Doesnt change the fact that the mages have done far greater things then mundanes. You cannot do that if your a walking time and thats a fact. And if you do not believe in secularism then your an idiot. why dont you ****** of to Iran and see how well it goes there

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
2 arguments with no real basis.

Mages being dangerous and waling bombs does not preclude them from forming a tyranical empire.

And secularity is not a magical cure for everything nor is it a great idea to begin with. Especially not in TheDas.

Doesnt change the fact that the mages have done far greater things then mundanes. You cannot do that if your a walking time and thats a fact.

No, it's not.
Mages are given great power and what have they accomplished? - the most hated slavering, tyrannical empire on the planet and they are routinely the cause of the greatest disasters.

And if you do not believe in secularism then your an idiot. why dont you ****** of to Iran and see how well it goes there

If you don't have anything nice to say, maybe you should consider not speaking at all, Mr. Internet Tough Guy?

I don't "belive" in secularity, since it doesn't truly exist (you cannot divorce your beliefs and worlviews from yourself... and I'm not talking only of religious worldviews either).

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
2 arguments with no real basis.

Mages being dangerous and waling bombs does not preclude them from forming a tyranical empire.

And secularity is not a magical cure for everything nor is it a great idea to begin with. Especially not in TheDas.

Doesnt change the fact that the mages have done far greater things then mundanes. You cannot do that if your a walking time and thats a fact.

No, it's not.
Mages are given great power and what have they accomplished? - the most hated slavering, tyrannical empire on the planet and they are routinely the cause of the greatest disasters.

And if you do not believe in secularism then your an idiot. why dont you ****** of to Iran and see how well it goes there

If you don't have anything nice to say, maybe you should consider not speaking at all, Mr. Internet Tough Guy?

I don't "belive" in secularity, since it doesn't truly exist (you cannot divorce your beliefs and worlviews from yourself... and I'm not talking only of religious worldviews either).

A hated empire doesnt change the fact that the Tevinter imperium accomplished far more then the  mundane kingdoms thats a fact. If mages where such time bombs it would have collapsed on itself . you and the rest of the templar supporters greatly blow this problem out of proportions.

And i know that you dont believe in secularity because your very narrow minded to the point you twist facts to win a debate. Also the  reason im trolling you because no matter how many time you trip yourself up you simply go on and on which gives me an infinite amount of amusement. And despite warning you several times you will once again go into a debate with me you cannot win.

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
A hated empire doesnt change the fact that the Tevinter imperium accomplished far more then the  mundane kingdoms thats a fact.

Is it? Oh, I must have missed all those miraculous technological advances the Imperium has that other countries don't such as...hum...roads! Wait, mundanes have those too. Eluvians for long distance comunication, of course! Wait, Chantry run Circle also have magical long distance comunication. Glowstones for illumination? No, Val-Royeaux has those. Gunpowder? No, that's the Qunari. Dreadnougths? Still the Qunari. Buildings? No, mundanes can build.
C'mon...there must be something...
Well, they created/released Taint-spreading monsters that nearly destroyed the world five times. Does that count?

Modifié par MisterJB, 23 janvier 2013 - 03:49 .

[LobselVith8]

b09boy wrote...

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case.

Considering that Meredith's only argument for the Right of Annulment (to Hawke) is that a hypothetical mob will demand blood, I don't see justification for murdering hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single apostate (who happens to be standing right in front of Meredith). I don't see the justification for murdering people who are innocent of Anders' actions.

Also, we have a number of templars who violated the law, with some torturing a child for information on Feynriel, who raped mages, made mages tranquil illegally, and even killed people in broad daylight as part of Meredith's "death squad". I can see why some mages would turn to blood magic when it's the only school of magic that the templars can't nulify with their abilities.

Furthermore, Varric mentions that there are "many survivors" if Hawke protects the mages from the templars. Logically, you kill less people if you aren't actively participating in an act of genocide.

b09boy wrote...

As to the ongoing idea of templars=bad, mages=good, nobody should take away freedom under any circumstance, I'd say you're overly idealistic.  

The argument is about how some of us disagree strongly with the Chantry controlled Circles, and leaving mages under the subjugation of an anti-mage religious organization that has created a hostile and deadly enviornment for mages in Andrastian society.

b09boy wrote...

We don't have a real parallel to this in reality so the have to think of things in terms of what's going on in this fictional world. First off, mages really don't have it all that bad. In Origins we encountered the family of one mage who was allowed to conduct research away from the tower and even begin a family.  

Which is illegal according to Chantry law, which means Windhelm likely had a royal boon from King Maric that allowed him to live outside the Circle and have a family, since he was a war hero during the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden under Moira the Rebel Queen and Prince Maric the Savior.

b09boy wrote...

Many are allowed to become political advisers and the like. Two of our companions flat out request to be allowed to leave with us and are granted permission because they've earned trust. It's people like Jowan, Anders, and Uldred who keep seeking forbidden knowledge or freedom from oppression which really cause problems. And what happens? Yeeeeeaaaaah...

Wynne was allowed to leave during the Fifth Blight. Ines was allowed to research a plant that was rumored to grow in Blighted soil after the Fifth Blight left parts of Ferelden inhospitable. It's mentioned numerous times that Wynne has certain privileges that other Circle mages don't have. And forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry will cause problems, because people historically resist oppression.

b09boy wrote...

But I digress. Let's try to make a parallel to reality. Imagine a person who is capable of nuclear-sized devastation if they ever become too emotional - too angry, sad, greedy, lustful, prideful, hungry. Imagine a teenager like that. This is the reality of mages in Dragon Age. And you think it would be a good idea to allow such people to go unsupervised, untrained, completely free?

No one here is arguing that mages should be lawless. Some people are here are arguing against allowing a corrupt organization like the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars to have "dominion over mages by divine right".

b09boy wrote...

The wonder isn't that they're kept under lock and key until they have some semblance of trust, the wonder is that they're allowed to live at all. Our reality would have probably put laws in place to eliminate them flat out a thousand years ago, or at best to brainwash (or lobotomize) and weaponize a couple.

Some mages are stripped of their humanity, via the Rite of Tranquility.

[Lotion Soronarr]

No, it's not.
Mages are given great power and what have they accomplished? - the most hated slavering, tyrannical empire on the planet and they are routinely the cause of the greatest disasters.

If you don't have anything nice to say, maybe you should consider not speaking at all, Mr. Internet Tough Guy?

I don't "belive" in secularity, since it doesn't truly exist (you cannot divorce your beliefs and worlviews from yourself... and I'm not talking only of religious worldviews either).

A hated empire doesnt change the fact that the Tevinter imperium accomplished far more then the  mundane kingdoms thats a fact. If mages where such time bombs it would have collapsed on itself . you and the rest of the templar supporters greatly blow this problem out of proportions.

And Natzi Germany accomplished more than "normal" Germany. Your point is pointless.
Magic is powerfull and mages can accomplish many things...that is irrelevant.

Your premise that if mages were timebombs the empire would collapse is unsopported and created only to fuel your already pre-established conclusion.
Empires have surived A LOT of very bad things trought history.

And i know that you dont believe in secularity because your very narrow minded to the point you twist facts to win a debate. Also the  reason im trolling you because no matter how many time you trip yourself up you simply go on and on which gives me an infinite amount of amusement. And despite warning you several times you will once again go into a debate with me you cannot win.

Debate with you?
No, love...that would imply you listen to reason and an intelligent discussion can be had with you.

Now I can go all day trading insults with you, since you provide me with infinite material, but it's evident it will go nowhere. You're just too full of hate and bile which is rather evident from your posts that contain nothing but insults.

I'd suggest you take a vacation till you get your emotions under control, but I know my warning will fall on deaf ears.

And interesting you freely admit you are trolling.

[MisterJB]

We should put those lazy mages to work.
Foregoing the possibility of abuse for a moment, mages receive free food, clothes, education and nice accomodations to boot. In a medieval setting, the mages might well be the only people besides the Kings to whom sickness is not a state of being.
Blessed Andraste said that "Magic must serve man" and I agree wholeheartedly. It's time for the mages to actually earn some of the free stuff they get.
It's really simple. Grab 10 templars and a smaller number; let's say 3; of Spirit Healers. Place them in an empty room, that's all you need, and place a sign on the door that says: "Free Healing" Bam, you've made the world a better place.

Honestly, if someone who chose to become a Spirit Healer is not likely to be dangerous in the first place. It's those Entropy guys you should watch out for, their spells are sick. There is really no good use for "Waking Nightmare."

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]
[quote]
And Natzi Germany accomplished more than "normal" Germany. Your point is pointless.
Magic is powerfull and mages can accomplish many things...that is irrelevant.

Your premise that if mages were timebombs the empire would collapse is unsopported and created only to fuel your already pre-established conclusion.
Empires have surived A LOT of very bad things trought history.

[/quote]

You are wrong.  Yes Tevinter is the poster child for evil empire (i.e. one that does not respect the santicty of human life) but that isn't the result of magic.  Pol Pot wasn't magical, and look at the Khmer Rouge.

The POINT is that if abominations were as great a threat as the chantry and the templars would have us believe and if a mage were likely to become an abomination just from getting out of bed wrong, then humanity would never has survived long enough to become civilized at all let alone rise to the heights of Tevinter (good and bad).

Ergo, the Chantry for it's own reasons (likely dealing with control and power) is essentially selling the rest of Thedas a bill of goods when it comes to the true level of danger of magic and mages.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
You are wrong.  Yes Tevinter is the poster child for evil empire (i.e. one that does not respect the santicty of human life) but that isn't the result of magic.  Pol Pot wasn't magical, and look at the Khmer Rouge.

I never said magic is the source of evil, now did I? Don't attack strawmen.

What I did say that magic makes evil easier, and mages are more tempted than mundanes to boot.

The POINT is that if abominations were as great a threat as the chantry and the templars would have us believe and if a mage were likely to become an abomination just from getting out of bed wrong, then humanity would never has survived long enough to become civilized at all let alone rise to the heights of Tevinter (good and bad).

You are wrong.
REductio Ad Absurdum at work. Abominations are dangerous, therefore they will destroy the world.
That's just pure bulls****.


Humanity and civlization are anything if not ressilient.
Civilization have survived in the msot inhospitable areas of hte wrold. Nations and kingdoms have been hit by wars, plauges, deseases and FREQUENT natural disasters - and yet somehow they still endured.
This is a historicly proven fact. Deal with it.

Ergo, the Chantry for it's own reasons (likely dealing with control and power) is essentially selling the rest of Thedas a bill of goods when it comes to the true level of danger of magic and mages.

Ergo, you for your own reasons (likely paranoia or hate of religion) are trying to sell everyone else the idea of the Evil Chantry.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 janvier 2013 - 08:31 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

b09boy wrote...

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case.

Considering that Meredith's only argument for the Right of Annulment (to Hawke) is that a hypothetical mob will demand blood, I don't see justification for murdering hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single apostate (who happens to be standing right in front of Meredith). I don't see the justification for murdering people who are innocent of Anders' actions.

That was the only reason Meredith gave, but it's not the ONLY reason.
We already know she considered the Circle corrupted shortly before Anders blew up the Chantry.

b09boy wrote...
As to the ongoing idea of templars=bad, mages=good, nobody should take away freedom under any circumstance, I'd say you're overly idealistic.  

The argument is about how some of us disagree strongly with the Chantry controlled Circles, and leaving mages under the subjugation of an anti-mage religious organization that has created a hostile and deadly enviornment for mages in Andrastian society.

Again with the "It's all theCahntrys fault".
How much you extrapolate is staggering.
You latch on to the few instances of abuse and use them as some kind of proof of institutional abuse, disregarding all evidence of contrary
Bad news travels far. Gossip is usually bad.
Abuse happens in EVERY system under the sun - there is no perfect balance of power so someone is always gonna be getting the short end of the stick.
There is no perfect oversight, as there is plenty of abuse even in the modern world.

People fear and mistrust mages because they are mages, not because the Chantry tells them to. Chantry calls magic a BLESSING and a CURSE. It is accurate and yet you seem to get stuck only on the "curse" part.

Which is illegal according to Chantry law

No, it's not.
Mages often get special (and not so special) priviliges

No one here is arguing that mages should be lawless. Some people are here are arguing against allowing a corrupt organization like the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars to have "dominion over mages by divine right".

As opposed to what?
What neutral, uncorruptable organization is there? And even if we assume you make on - how long will it remain like that?

Some mages are stripped of their humanity, via the Rite of Tranquility.

Humanity? That's debatable.
And tranquility is seen as a mercy. Would you rather dangerous mages get killed?

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
You are wrong.  Yes Tevinter is the poster child for evil empire (i.e. one that does not respect the santicty of human life) but that isn't the result of magic.  Pol Pot wasn't magical, and look at the Khmer Rouge.

I never said magic is the source of evil, now did I? Don't attack strawmen.

What I did say that magic makes evil easier, and mages are more tempted than mundanes to boot.

Actually the claim that magic is the source of evil is made frequently by templar supporters in the game, and you parrot that position.  As for magic making evil easier well sure.  A sword makes doing evil easier too.

You have no point.

The POINT is that if abominations were as great a threat as the chantry and the templars would have us believe and if a mage were likely to become an abomination just from getting out of bed wrong, then humanity would never has survived long enough to become civilized at all let alone rise to the heights of Tevinter (good and bad).

You are wrong.
REductio Ad Absurdum at work. Abominations are dangerous, therefore they will destroy the world.
That's just pure bulls****.

No, it's logic.  If abomination happened with the ease and frequency that the chantry would have us believe, or that DA2 would suggest, and if you buy that each one could destroy 70 people at a time (a small tribe), then there is simply no way that human tribes could have survived since magic long predates the rise of civilization.  The first time an abomination happened, it would wipe out that tribe.

Game Over.

Humanity and civlization are anything if not ressilient.
Civilization have survived in the msot inhospitable areas of hte wrold. Nations and kingdoms have been hit by wars, plauges, deseases and FREQUENT natural disasters - and yet somehow they still endured.
This is a historicly proven fact. Deal with it.

You are wrong.  Sure humanity is resiliant up to a point, but you need to gain a much better understanding of anthropology than you clearly do.  When the inherent death rate exceeds the birth/replacement rate, then the civilization WILL DIE and will often lead to a local extinction.  See the Anatasi people's of SW North America or the Olmecs both of whom became extinct in exactly this sort of way.....and that was do to much milder climate shifts.

We also know that a new disease can lead to cultural extinction (see Native Americans post 17th century) if the death rate is high enough.  The limit seems to be about a 1/3rd fatality rate (Black Death).

Ergo, the Chantry for it's own reasons (likely dealing with control and power) is essentially selling the rest of Thedas a bill of goods when it comes to the true level of danger of magic and mages.

Ergo, you for your own reasons (likely paranoia or hate of religion) are trying to sell everyone else the idea of the Evil Chantry.

No, it's a matter of bad writing.   Either the Chantry is lying about the true danger of mages, or the lore is badly written and logically inconsistant.  Pick one.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]b09boy wrote...

To the topic, yes of course there's justification. The Circle was hugely corrupted and probably should have been annulled years ago due to how many blood mages and abominations were present within it. Aside from that, the templars win in the end in either case and the mages pretty well wiped out in any case. [/quote]

Considering that Meredith's only argument for the Right of Annulment (to Hawke) is that a hypothetical mob will demand blood, I don't see justification for murdering hundreds of men, women, and children for the actions of one single apostate (who happens to be standing right in front of Meredith). I don't see the justification for murdering people who are innocent of Anders' actions.[/quote]

That was the only reason Meredith gave, but it's not the ONLY reason.
We already know she considered the Circle corrupted shortly before Anders blew up the Chantry.
[/quote]

We also knew that many of her templars starting with Knight-Captain Cullen didn't agree.  Moreover, Meredith had no reason to believe that the circle was irredeemably corrupted and was very bad about giving justifications for the same.


[quote]
[quote]b09boy wrote...
As to the ongoing idea of templars=bad, mages=good, nobody should take away freedom under any circumstance, I'd say you're overly idealistic.  [/quote]

The argument is about how some of us disagree strongly with the Chantry controlled Circles, and leaving mages under the subjugation of an anti-mage religious organization that has created a hostile and deadly enviornment for mages in Andrastian society.[/quote]


Again with the "It's all theCahntrys fault".
How much you extrapolate is staggering.
You latch on to the few instances of abuse and use them as some kind of proof of institutional abuse, disregarding all evidence of contrary
Bad news travels far. Gossip is usually bad.
Abuse happens in EVERY system under the sun - there is no perfect balance of power so someone is always gonna be getting the short end of the stick.
There is no perfect oversight, as there is plenty of abuse even in the modern world.

People fear and mistrust mages because they are mages, not because the Chantry tells them to. Chantry calls magic a BLESSING and a CURSE. It is accurate and yet you seem to get stuck only on the "curse" part.
[/quote]

Actually that is not universally true.  It is true in Andrastian Lands because the Chantry itself promotes a strong anti-mage agenda.  The codex entries all back this (including the deliberate blurring of the lines between apostate and maleficarum), and even the Reverant Mother in Redcliff will promise a human mage that she won't raise a mob against him (implying that normally she would).

The Chantry is indeed the source of much if not most of the problem, probably in large part due to a reaction against Ancient Tevinter which really was as bad as a magocracy could be.


[quote]
[quote]
Which is illegal according to Chantry law [/quote]

No, it's not.
Mages often get special (and not so special) priviliges
[/quote]

Tranquilling a harrowed magic IS illegal under Chantry Law except either by the Mage's direct request or by the express consent of the First Enchanter.  Do you really think that Orsino approved all of Alrik's tranquils?  Really?

[quote]
[quote]
No one here is arguing that mages should be lawless. Some people are here are arguing against allowing a corrupt organization like the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars to have "dominion over mages by divine right".[/quote]

As opposed to what?
What neutral, uncorruptable organization is there? And even if we assume you make on - how long will it remain like that?
[/quote]

No organization will be perfecte or incorruptable.  That is NOT a defense against a system that clearly doesn't work and had clearly broken down.  Just because no solution is perfect is NOT a valid argument against finding a better system.


[quote]
[quote]
Some mages are stripped of their humanity, via the Rite of Tranquility.[/quote]

Humanity? That's debatable.
And tranquility is seen as a mercy. Would you rather dangerous mages get killed?

[/quote]

Honestly?  Yes, I think death is better than tranquility.  I would pick death over tranquility personally.  The ability to feel and have emotional reasoning, and the ability to CHOOSE and be self-aware (which Tranquility seems to deny) is inherent in being human.  Tranquility is worse than murder IMHO because it kills the mage (or at least it was thought to until recently) and leaves a robot left to be exploited.

-Polaris

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

We should put those lazy mages to work.
Foregoing the possibility of abuse for a moment, mages receive free food, clothes, education and nice accomodations to boot. In a medieval setting, the mages might well be the only people besides the Kings to whom sickness is not a state of being.
Blessed Andraste said that "Magic must serve man" and I agree wholeheartedly. It's time for the mages to actually earn some of the free stuff they get.
It's really simple. Grab 10 templars and a smaller number; let's say 3; of Spirit Healers. Place them in an empty room, that's all you need, and place a sign on the door that says: "Free Healing" Bam, you've made the world a better place.

Honestly, if someone who chose to become a Spirit Healer is not likely to be dangerous in the first place. It's those Entropy guys you should watch out for, their spells are sick. There is really no good use for "Waking Nightmare."

Yeah and thats not going to happen ever with the chantry. As soon as mages start to become productive members of society is the day that the chantry and templars lose all controll over them as the common people suddenly realise that the chantry is full of ****

Modifié par DKJaigen, 24 janvier 2013 - 03:17 .

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
Yeah and thats not going to happen ever with the chantry. As soon as mages start to become productive members of society is the day that the chantry and templars lose all controll over them as the common people suddenly realise that the chantry is full of ****

You misunderstand. I don't believe there can be a society of mages and mundanes, I will never believe that.
What I wish for is simply to use the power of the mages for good and then return them to the tower once they are done. Have them actually serve man for once.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
A hated empire doesnt change the fact that the Tevinter imperium accomplished far more then the  mundane kingdoms thats a fact.

Is it? Oh, I must have missed all those miraculous technological advances the Imperium has that other countries don't such as...hum...roads! Wait, mundanes have those too. Eluvians for long distance comunication, of course! Wait, Chantry run Circle also have magical long distance comunication. Glowstones for illumination? No, Val-Royeaux has those. Gunpowder? No, that's the Qunari. Dreadnougths? Still the Qunari. Buildings? No, mundanes can build.
C'mon...there must be something...
Well, they created/released Taint-spreading monsters that nearly destroyed the world five times. Does that count?

Yes lets forget the road system the fortresses the superior magic armor and nearly every single magic item in this game that is superior can be linked to the tevinter imperium. And we have not seen what the tevinter imperium is capable because we have not yet seen the full scope of the imperium. 

over the 1000 years the mundane kingsdoms have remained stagnant. And not because they are reliant on magic

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
Yeah and thats not going to happen ever with the chantry. As soon as mages start to become productive members of society is the day that the chantry and templars lose all controll over them as the common people suddenly realise that the chantry is full of ****

You misunderstand. I don't believe there can be a society of mages and mundanes, I will never believe that.
What I wish for is simply to use the power of the mages for good and then return them to the tower once they are done. Have them actually serve man for once.

You cannot use the power of magic for good the chantry will not allow it.

[LobselVith8]

b09boy wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Even if we agreed with this and even if we were to philosophically agree with the Templars (which I don't in either way) you would still be completely wrong because this is irrelevent.

What is relevent is that KC Meredith is using an act of terrorism by a REBEL Grey Warden Mage, ie. someone NOT of the circle to justify the slaughter of every circle mage in Kirkwall.  Not only is mass punishment manifestly unjust on the face of it, but Meredith completely ignores the one person who is undeniably guilty. Sebastian (who is hardly pro-mage) is outraged at Meredith at this point.

That is what makes siding with the Templars in the end unjustifiable. It is not justifiable to punish someone for a crime that someone else has clearly committed no matter what the so-called mob may want.  The fact is that Meredith was just looking for an excuse to slaughter mages (and while harsh, the game makes that very clear).

-Polaris

It's as though you ignored half of what I wrote. Meredith's reasoning is completely flawed and indefensible, and if that were the only argument to be made I'd agree that there is no justification. But you are purposely ignoring two facts.  1) Siding with the mages is prolonging the inevitable and ultimately costs more lives, including htose you are attempting to save, as they are in an impossible situation and cannot hope to hold the city against future reinforcement, and don't.  

Are you seriously blaming hundreds of men, women, and children because they were fighting for their lives? As for your comment, it costs the lives of templars who are attempting to murder all the mages because Meredith wants to appease a hypothetical mob, while pro-mage Hawke is protecting as many men, women, and children from execution as he can (as we know from Varric, since there were "many survivors" as a result of his refusal to help the templars murder hundreds of people simply because they were mages).

b09boy wrote...

2) Independent of Meredith's late reasoning, the Rite of Annulment should have been put into action many years previous when it was obvious there was major irredeemable corruption both in blood magic and abominations within the Circle so siding with the mages is ultimately siding with a group which is so twisted and corrupt they should have already been dead years ago for altogether different reasons.

There's no evidence to support that the Circle of Kirkwall was "irredeemable" at all. First, Hawke never even met the hundreds of mages living in the Gallows. How can you say there was "irredeemable corruption" when you know next to nothing about people you've never encountered? Hawke only encountered a few of them in the courtyard, some of whom pleaded for Hawke not to speak with them because they would get whipped if they were caught speaking with civilians, while a tranquil proprietor asks Hawke not to steal anything because she will be physically punished by the templars if anything is stolen.

Are you saying hundreds of people should be condemned for the actions of a few? Your line of reasoning is no different than if someone wanted to condemn the entire dwarven population of Kirkwall because Hawke fought a plethora of dwarven enemies for seven years.

We know things were bad in the Circle of Kirkwall. It was a toxic enviornment where mages were being raped, tortured, killed, and made tranquil illegally, so I can see why some of them would turn to blood magic. Probably for the same reason some Grey Warden mages turn to blood magic: to give them an edge against the monsters who threaten them.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Actually the claim that magic is the source of evil is made frequently by templar supporters in the game, and you parrot that position.  As for magic making evil easier well sure.  A sword makes doing evil easier too.

You have no point.

No, you have no point. Stop attacking things I never said and stop putting words in my mouth.

You are wrong.
Reductio Ad Absurdum at work. Abominations are dangerous, therefore they will destroy the world.
That's just pure bulls****.

No, it's logic.  If abomination happened with the ease and frequency that the chantry would have us believe, or that DA2 would suggest, and if you buy that each one could destroy 70 people at a time (a small tribe), then there is simply no way that human tribes could have survived since magic long predates the rise of civilization.  The first time an abomination happened, it would wipe out that tribe.

Game Over.

No. Your logic is flawed.
It's not "Game Over". It's not the Apocalypse. It's a disaster. There are a LOT of humans out there and mages are a tiny minority. Humanity is resilient. Towns and kingdoms have survived major disasters of all kind. FREQUENT disasters.
That doens't make those disasters and the death tolls welcome.

Also, what frequency are you talking about? I don't recall anyone ever manetioning any statistical rate.

And also, are you SERIOUSLY using DA2 throwing abominations at you as enemies left as right for gamplay purposes as an argument? SERIOUSLy?

You are wrong.  Sure humanity is resiliant up to a point, but you need to gain a much better understanding of anthropology than you clearly do.  When the inherent death rate exceeds the birth/replacement rate, then the civilization WILL DIE and will often lead to a local extinction.

Go ahead and prove the death rate is higher then.
I dare you.

No, it's a matter of bad writing.   Either the Chantry is lying about the true danger of mages, or the lore is badly written and logically inconsistant.  Pick one.

-Polaris

I pick the third option.
You don't understand or do not want to understand and push your own fanon.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

We also knew that many of her templars starting with Knight-Captain Cullen didn't agree.  Moreover, Meredith had no reason to believe that the circle was irredeemably corrupted and was very bad about giving justifications for the same.

Sez you. I think she did.
Hell, plenty of players thinks so.

People fear and mistrust mages because they are mages, not because the Chantry tells them to. Chantry calls magic a BLESSING and a CURSE. It is accurate and yet you seem to get stuck only on the "curse" part.

Actually that is not universally true.  It is true in Andrastian Lands because the Chantry itself promotes a strong anti-mage agenda.  The codex entries all back this (including the deliberate blurring of the lines between apostate and maleficarum), and even the Reverant Mother in Redcliff will promise a human mage that she won't raise a mob against him (implying that normally she would).

And now you latch one to one Reverend Mother to represent the offical Chantry stance? That is a fallacy.

The Chantry is NOT the problem. Mages are. And always will be BY THEIR OWN NATURE.

Tranquilling a harrowed magic IS illegal under Chantry Law except either by the Mage's direct request or by the express consent of the First Enchanter.  Do you really think that Orsino approved all of Alrik's tranquils?  Really?

That's not what we were talkign about. We where talking about mages living outside of Circle and marrying.

No organization will be perfecte or incorruptable.  That is NOT a defense against a system that clearly doesn't work and had clearly broken down.  Just because no solution is perfect is NOT a valid argument against finding a better system.

You say "clearly broken", I say it's not.

Honestly?  Yes, I think death is better than tranquility.  I would pick death over tranquility personally.

Well that is you. Others would disagree.

[andy6915]

Well, this thread has had at least one effect. Remember how I said I sided with the Templars once thinking that I was saving more mages? And how I took that back once I was corrected (and the guy who corrected me acted like an ass about it)?

Well, reading this thread up until now has caused me to decide that I'm never siding with the Templars again. I missed a lot of stuff apparently. Templar death squads against civilians? A tranquil who is beaten for stuff getting stolen while not having enough will to even stop thieves because of the very tranquilizing the Templars forced on him, beating him for being what they made him? Templars who get off while watching young and attractive mages bathe? Beating other mages simply for daring to say a word to a non-mage? Gang rapes on mage apostates? Tranquilizing mages specifically to make them your sex slave? Templars getting glee out of killing a scared and unarmed mage who they just sealed their magic off with a Templar talent and is now defenseless? Making a power grab in the wake of the Viscount's death, and trying to become the sole authority?

... For that matter, how much do you want to bet (disturbing but likely guess coming up) that some Templars go for CHILDREN mages and watch them bathe too to get off? Bet a couple do. I mean, if they're already turning a blind eye on Templars raping and peeping on and making sex slaves of adult and teenage mages, why not pre-puberty too? After all it's a MAGE child, so who cares, right?

Regardless of whether I support the Templars or not, there's NO WAY I can support the Kirkwall Templars. Period. They disgust and disturb me after realizing all this. The words "human rights" is apparently not a word in the Kirkwall Templar's dictionary. I bet the words "Templar rights" are though. Disgusting, utterly disgusting.

Modifié par andy69156915, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:40 .

[MisterJB]

andy69156915 wrote...
Templars who get off while watching young and attractive mages bathe?

C'mon, that was just gossip. You can see their bathing facilities in Ferelden. It's a bathtub with a wooden wall separating from the others to safeguard some privacy which was pretty standard in medieval times. It's literally impossible for a templar to spy on a mage without the mage noticing it unless you make a peephole through the thick stone wall.

 Gang rapes on mage apostates?

Where did that even come from?

Tranquilizing mages specifically to make them your sex slave?

Yes but that was just Alrik. Everyone agrees there is something seriously wrong with that guy, even Meredith. The rest of the templars are quite glad when he dies.

Templars getting glee out of killing a scared and unarmed mage who they just sealed their magic off with a Templar talent and is now defenseless?

As If Tahrone didn't have fun putting demons in the bodies of innocent recruits. It's not just the templars who have their bad apples.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 janvier 2013 - 09:20 .