587 réponses à ce sujet

[andy6915]

MisterJB wrote...
C'mon, that was just gossip. You can see their bathing facilities in Ferelden. It's a bathtub with a wooden wall separating from the others to safeguard some privacy which was pretty standard in medieval times. It's literally impossible for a templar to spy on a mage without the mage noticing it unless you make a peephole through the thick stone wall.

Or they sometimes just place a little chair or stool right there in front of the mage and sit on it and watch them while telling them that they're watching to make sure they don't try practicing forbidden magic under the guise of taking a bath. That's what it sounded like to me. It would be a perfect excuse, because you never know right? It would be a perfect place to try out blood magic where they think that they have total privacy, and better safe then sorry.

Does that sound like something perverted Templars might do? Yes, it does. Kirkwall Templars especially.

Where did that even come from?

Remember the scene where Anders almost kills that girl? Before fighting that Templar, he starts going on about how "yes, you'll do whatever I want" in a very creepy tone with a very obvious rape-face on. The only reason it doesn't get that far is because you interrupt him. And he has several Templars with him, none of which seem to have even the slightest problem with the obvious rape-about-to-happen, so it's logical to assume they were going to join in once the "fun" started. Getting raped by multiple people at once is a gang rape.

Yes but that was just Alrik. Everyone agrees there is something seriously wrong with that guy, even Meredith. The rest of the templars are quite glad when he dies.

Really? They are? Cullen doesn't express being glad he's gone. Thrask doesn't. Meredith doesn't, though you claim she does. And all the other Templars standing with the guy who's about to rape the girl and fight to the death to defend him and their "prize"? They seem quite on his side about the imminent rape. Clearly, he wasn't disliked.

As If Tahrone didn't have fun putting demons in the bodies of innocent recruits. It's not just the templars who have their bad apples.

She was absolutely bonkers and had some crazy friends too (that were likely blood thralls to her). Thing is, crazy mages like that get curtailed. Crazy rapey Templars who love watching the life drain from an 8 year old mage that they just disemboweled? Brushed under the rug and allowed to continue doing it anyway. In fact, that kind of Templar seems to be the kind they try hardest to recruit, seeing as the codex says as much.

Modifié par andy69156915, 24 janvier 2013 - 09:59 .

[MisterJB]

andy69156915 wrote...
Or they sometimes just place a little chair or stool right there in front of the mage and sit on it and watch them while telling them that they're watching to make sure they don't try practicing forbidden magic under the guise of taking a bath. That's what it sounded like to me. It would be a perfect excuse, because you never know right? It would be a perfect place to try out blood magic where they think that they have total privacy, and better safe then sorry.

Does that sound like something perverted Templars might do? Yes, it does. Kirkwall Templars especially.

I'll have to clarify this.
In DAO, one of the Circle apprentices tells the Warden that another apprentice told her that she heard that the templars spy on them while they bath. She hopes it's not true.
If the templars just sat there, obviously she would know that it was true which she doesn't. And, as I said before, it's literally impossible for a templar to spy on a mage without her knowing because she would realize there is someone standing behind the thin wooden apparatus keeping her privacy and because making a peephole through a tick stone wall of a castle is remarkably difficult.
In Kirkwall, Meredith couldn't even conduct a search despite the Champion having just discovered that several Circle mages; Grace&Co; were blood mages and you inttend to suggest they could just sit there and watch them bath?

"yes, you'll do whatever I want"

Alrik is a bad, bad, bad man no one disputes that.
Danarius used Fenris as a sexual slave(WoG). Again, not just the templars.

Really? They are? Cullen doesn't express being glad he's gone. Thrask doesn't. Meredith doesn't, though you claim she does. And all the other Templars standing with the guy who's about to rape the girl and fight to the death to defend him and their "prize"? They seem quite on his side about the imminent rape. Clearly, he wasn't disliked.

Remember the girl you save from him? Send her back to the Circle and in Act 3, she will send Hawke a letter that reads:
"It's not the kindest thing to say, but nobody misses Ser Alrik. Not even
the other templars. I know it's hard to imagine, but they don't want to
fight. They want things to be normal: no Harrowings, no Tranquil, no
one dying. But none of us are getting that wish now."

Meredith, Eltina, Justinia all tought his plan was insane. Alrik is a sick freak but the mages also have plenty of those.

She was absolutely bonkers and had some crazy friends too (that were likely blood thralls to her). Thing is, crazy mages like that get curtailed. Crazy rapey Templars who love watching the life drain from an 8 year old mage that they just disemboweled? Brushed under the rug and allowed to continue doing it anyway. In fact, Templars seem to be the kind they try hardest to recruit.

Right, the double standards. If a mage doe something repugnant, s/he was just insane. If a templar does that, they're are the definition of evil and clear representatives of the entire Order.
I agree that templars need to be held accountable for their actions but"Religious fervor and abolute loyalty" do not, in any way, equal sadists who like to kill little children.

[andy6915]

Too lazy for quotes-

first paragraph-
Right, she heard it from another. But it was probably a game of telephone. The Templars openly and directly watched a few mages they suspected, who then told another mage who told another who told another, and the story ended up becoming "spied on" rather then just plain "watched". And if you think that's not likely, I know that some juvenile detention centers and stuff make the children and teens get watched while bathing to make sure that they don't hurt themselves or others while in there. The Templars doing the same thing with mages is hardly unbelievable. But in the Templars case, I highly doubt the reason a Templar would volunteer for the watch duty has entirely pure motives.

second-
Yes, he was a bad man. A bad man that no one seemed to talk bad about even after his death, and had an entire company of Templars in on his raping habits, a company who fought to the death to protect him.

third-
"No one misses"=/=happy he's gone

Besides, she's a mage. How in on private conversation and how Templars truly feel is she? Not very, I'd wager.

fourth-
You agree they need to be held accountable, and yet they NEVER EVER EVER are. Like I said, even rapey happy sadistic bastards like Alrick are completely untouched or reprimanded. And his ENTIRE company that he commanded knew about it and possibly joined in. Did any of them ever say anything? If any did, clearly it got brushed aside as a minor detail.

Also, as I said the Templars most prefer hiring the ones that seem like they enjoy mage killing. You didn't even argue me on that. Clearly, you acknowledge it. Mages however are not raised up in rank if they're nuts. Templars are.

[MisterJB]

andy69156915 wrote...
Right, she heard it from another. But it was probably a game of telephone. The Templars openly and directly watched a few mages they suspected, who then told another mage who told another who told another, and the story ended up becoming "spied on" rather then just plain "watched". And if you think that's not likely, I know that some juvenile detention centers and stuff make the children and teens get watched while bathing to make sure that they don't hurt themselves or others while in there. The Templars doing the same thing with mages is hardly unbelievable. But in the Templars case, I highly doubt the reason a Templar would volunteer for the watch duty has entirely pure motives.

Or it's just gossip. Mages are not defenseless children, they are a community of people who can conjure fire out of nowhere. No templar is just watching them take a bath.

second-
Yes, he was a bad man. A bad man that no one seemed to talk bad about even after his death, and had an entire company of Templars in on his raping habits, a company who fought to the death to protect him.

third-
"No one misses"=/=happy he's gone

Besides, she's a mage. How in on private conversation and how Templars truly feel is she? Not very, I'd wager.

Now you're just closing your screams and singing "lalala can't listen you". The other templars are glad no more mages are turning tranquil and everyone important tought making all Tranquil was crazy. Period.

You agree they need to be held accountable, and yet they NEVER EVER EVER are. Like I said, even rapey happy sadistic bastards like Alrick are completely untouched or reprimanded. And his ENTIRE company that he commanded knew about it and possibly joined in. Did any of them ever say anything? If any did, clearly it got brushed aside as a minor detail.

Kirkwall was a special case where the KC became a tyrant. Things are different in many other Circles.
For instance, in the White Spire, the strinct Lambert gave in to the
protests of mages and released Rhys despite having reasons to believe he
was a mage murderer which he turned out to be.

Also, as I said the Templars most prefer hiring the ones that seem like they enjoy mage killing. You didn't even argue me on that. Clearly, you acknowledge it. Mages however are not raised up in rank if they're nuts. Templars are.

I did: I tought you were referring to the Codex therefore, I took the words right from it and showed how it didn't match with the impression you have of templars.
If you didn't even use the Codex, I can't imagine where you got that idea from. I can give you a list of ranked templars who are quite decent humans beings.

[Maniccc]

So, after all of these pages. this is what I get from the arguments being made.

Pro-templar: Fear of mages abusing their power means we should become abusive a priori. We should imprison them, kidnap children, restrict their movements, and ultimately murder them if we say it's necessary.

Pro mage: standard freedom arguments.

The problem, of course, is that whenever you put some people in charge of others through coercion, the oppressed will rebel at some point. As long as mages and mundanes are seen as enemies and not allies, these power imbalances will exist as one side then the other strives to dominate, and then you have people like JB making nothing but fear arguments. Fear ultimately leads to hatred and oppression and murder.

The solution is obvious: create a culture of alliance. Foster not fear and enmity but a balanced system with checks, supported by a culture of shared value. In other words, change the paradigm from mages vs. mundanes, to a culture of both vs. something else. Mages and mundanes should not have any fear towards one another based on their reltionship to magic. This division weakens the nation and creates internal problems that can lead eventually to its own destruction. A culture of cooperation and mutual benefit would create a stronger society. Unite both sides against another threat, like the Qunari, the darkspawn, some other country, or even against ideas like poverty.

Laws and institutions cannot control everyone. And the more restrictive the laws, the fewer people you can control, since more and more will rebel. By replacing the mage vs mundane paradigm, you can bypass all this nonsense and build a stronger nation.

I'm not pro-mage or pro-templar. I am pro-freedom and pro-cooperation. The notion that these two must be at odds is artificial, created by a handful of scared people on both sides who are too shortsighted to see any other options. This is why I always want to pick neither side at the end. Both are narrow minded and intellectually imprisoned by fear and bias and hate and self-righteousness. Both sides, as organizations, must be destroyed, and a new paradigm created from its ashes.

[TEWR]

The other templars are glad no more mages are turning tranquil and everyone important tought making all Tranquil was crazy

And yet Meredith didn't kick him out of the Order for advocating something like that. Yeah... she only refused to save face with the public, but there's enough evidence and lore to back up that she either didn't care about the new Tranquil, authorized them unofficially, or is just incredibly incompetent.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And yet Meredith didn't kick him out of the Order for advocating something like that. Yeah... she only refused to save face with the public, but there's enough evidence and lore to back up that she either didn't care about the new Tranquil, authorized them unofficially, or is just incredibly incompetent.

Expelling someone from the Order just because he or she expressed an opinion is probrably going too far. However, I agree that there should have been a serious investigation on the mages whose Tranquilization was not authorized. But, only an idiot could actualy support making all mages Tranquil. Because they're valuable natural resources, if nothing else.

[TEWR]

Expelling someone from the Order just because he or she expressed an opinion is probrably going too far

Not when their opinion is as radical as this. It's grounds for psychological exams and, in Thedosian standards, one might think due to the effects of lyrium usage -- and thus meaning Alrik would've been shipped to Val Royeaux to retire.

[andy6915]

People... PEOPLE... Are just "valuable resources" to you? God, even the Qunari don't say stuff about mages as demeaning as that. At least Qunari call them animals, which is better then "resource" like they're coal or something.

JB, are you sure you're not a troll? Because you're becoming practically a parody of the extreme pro-Templar side.

[MisterJB]

People ingame and out constatly whimper about how much the Chantry would like to just kill all mages or make them Tranquil whiich I say is ridiculous because even if the Chantry cared nothing for the mages, they would at least care that mages have many practical uses. They are, basically, the nuclear energy of Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

Maniccc wrote...

So, after all of these pages. this is what I get from the arguments being made.

Pro-templar: Fear of mages abusing their power means we should become abusive a priori. We should imprison them, kidnap children, restrict their movements, and ultimately murder them if we say it's necessary.

Pro mage: standard freedom arguments.

The problem, of course, is that whenever you put some people in charge of others through coercion, the oppressed will rebel at some point. As long as mages and mundanes are seen as enemies and not allies, these power imbalances will exist as one side then the other strives to dominate, and then you have people like JB making nothing but fear arguments. Fear ultimately leads to hatred and oppression and murder.

The solution is obvious: create a culture of alliance. Foster not fear and enmity but a balanced system with checks, supported by a culture of shared value. In other words, change the paradigm from mages vs. mundanes, to a culture of both vs. something else. Mages and mundanes should not have any fear towards one another based on their reltionship to magic. This division weakens the nation and creates internal problems that can lead eventually to its own destruction. A culture of cooperation and mutual benefit would create a stronger society. Unite both sides against another threat, like the Qunari, the darkspawn, some other country, or even against ideas like poverty.

Laws and institutions cannot control everyone. And the more restrictive the laws, the fewer people you can control, since more and more will rebel. By replacing the mage vs mundane paradigm, you can bypass all this nonsense and build a stronger nation.

I'm not pro-mage or pro-templar. I am pro-freedom and pro-cooperation. The notion that these two must be at odds is artificial, created by a handful of scared people on both sides who are too shortsighted to see any other options. This is why I always want to pick neither side at the end. Both are narrow minded and intellectually imprisoned by fear and bias and hate and self-righteousness. Both sides, as organizations, must be destroyed, and a new paradigm created from its ashes.

Kind of what I've been arguing.

But that also means ultimately changing the chantry's beliefs on mages and its practices, and changing the templar order's fundamentals.

I don't have a problem with it, but as long as the fear of mages exist, so too does there exist someone using that fear as justification to subjugate the mages.

Keeping on topic with the original question of this thread, I don't see any justification to side with Meredith is Annulling the Circle as the guilty party was right in front of her and her arguments don't hold up under scrutiny...or make any sense anyway.

Her arguments: The mob will demand blood.

My answer: Public trial of Anders and lay all the blame on a single apostate. Lock down the Gallows in the even a mob DOES form, and protect people innocent of the crime actually committed.

[Maniccc]

dragonflight288 wrote...

My answer: Public trial of Anders and lay all the blame on a single apostate. Lock down the Gallows in the even a mob DOES form, and protect people innocent of the crime actually committed.

Well, that's exactly right.  Whether you support the oppression of mages or not, to side with Meredith is irrational at best, complicity in mass murder at worst.

Modifié par Maniccc, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:43 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

andy69156915 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
C'mon, that was just gossip. You can see their bathing facilities in Ferelden. It's a bathtub with a wooden wall separating from the others to safeguard some privacy which was pretty standard in medieval times. It's literally impossible for a templar to spy on a mage without the mage noticing it unless you make a peephole through the thick stone wall.

Or they sometimes just place a little chair or stool right there in front of the mage and sit on it and watch them while telling them that they're watching to make sure they don't try practicing forbidden magic under the guise of taking a bath. That's what it sounded like to me. It would be a perfect excuse, because you never know right? It would be a perfect place to try out blood magic where they think that they have total privacy, and better safe then sorry.

Does that sound like something perverted Templars might do? Yes, it does. Kirkwall Templars especially.

You mean the same Kirkwall templars that apparently can't even conduct a serach of mage quarters without it going trough the grand cleric?

She was absolutely bonkers and had some crazy friends too (that were likely blood thralls to her). Thing is, crazy mages like that get curtailed. Crazy rapey Templars who love watching the life drain from an 8 year old mage that they just disemboweled? Brushed under the rug and allowed to continue doing it anyway. In fact, that kind of Templar seems to be the kind they try hardest to recruit, seeing as the codex says as much.

Prove it.
And prove the other bits too. Because you are wrong on all accounts.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The other templars are glad no more mages are turning tranquil and everyone important tought making all Tranquil was crazy

And yet Meredith didn't kick him out of the Order for advocating something like that. Yeah... she only refused to save face with the public, but there's enough evidence and lore to back up that she either didn't care about the new Tranquil, authorized them unofficially, or is just incredibly incompetent.

So what?
Now you're kicking people out based on ideas?
What happened to free speech?
This is a middle-age society we're talking about with mages being a real threat and a real problem. Templars don't just throw away much-needed personell because they said someoen thing you didnt' like.

[Lotion Soronarr]

andy69156915 wrote...

People... PEOPLE... Are just "valuable resources" to you? God, even the Qunari don't say stuff about mages as demeaning as that. At least Qunari call them animals, which is better then "resource" like they're coal or something.

Hm.....apparently all the Human Resource departments are sub-human scum.

Like it or not, everything is pretty much a resource on an organizational level.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Maniccc wrote...

So, after all of these pages. this is what I get from the arguments being made.

Pro-templar: Fear of mages abusing their power means we should become abusive a priori. We should imprison them, kidnap children, restrict their movements, and ultimately murder them if we say it's necessary.

Pro mage: standard freedom arguments.

Nice strawman.

I might as well say that all pro-mages argumetns boil down to "let the mages roam free, they should have the right to do anything, including killign children" And I'd be equally correct.

Mages have to be RESTRICTED.
Children are not kidnaped - not any more than social services today kidnap them.
Every single precaution and restriction placed upon mages is there for a reason.
Mages are not insitutionally abused - even tough abuse does happen, as does everywhere.

And killing, as distastefull as it is, sometimes has to be done.
Kill the few to save the many. This principle is not new and it's used in the modern day too.

Mages and mundanes should not have any fear towards one another based on their reltionship to magic.

Good luck with that.
You'll accomplish that when you remove fear of death from humantiy completely. Which is never.

I'm not pro-mage or pro-templar. I am pro-freedom and pro-cooperation. The notion that these two must be at odds is artificial, created by a handful of scared people on both sides who are too shortsighted to see any other options. This is why I always want to pick neither side at the end. Both are narrow minded and intellectually imprisoned by fear and bias and hate and self-righteousness. Both sides, as organizations, must be destroyed, and a new paradigm created from its ashes.

Call me when you get back from you land of unicorns and rainbows.

[DKJaigen]

Once again you present your opinion as fact. the biggest problem with your argument is that we have no clue how prone mages to possesion in general. And yet for some reason you shoot down any argument that says that the need some much needed reform for the safety of the common people.

And your right thedas is not a land of unicorns and rainbows and the templars will be very lucky to survive and not to be imprisoned , tortured and hanged for treason to Orlais. Do you think the nobility will like it when the templars start a war in their backyard?

[Maniccc]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nice strawman.

Umm...that was not a strawman.  A strawman is a logical fallacy that occurs when making an argument.  It occurs in the premises used to derive a conclusion.  I was not making an argument with those statements, but a general summary that is by and large correct.  So no, there was no strawman.

I might as well say that all pro-mages argumetns boil down to "let the mages roam free, they should have the right to do anything, including killign children" And I'd be equally correct.

THIS is a strawman.  You are deriving a specific conclusion based on a general summary of what others have said.  You are treating a summary as an argument for something.  That is your strawman.  Get it?  Well, you probably don't.

Mages have to be RESTRICTED.
Children are not kidnaped - not any more than social services today kidnap them. .

Semantics, and irelevant to my post, but this irrelevancy is forgivable because you confused a general summary with an argument.  All you are doing is repeating your dogma, a pointless exercise.

Good luck with that.
You'll accomplish that when you remove fear of death from humantiy completely. Which is never..

I find it amusing that you say this, as if paradigm shifts in cultures do not occur all the time.  It is not hard to create a paradigm shift in the minds of people, it just takes time and persistence and consistency.  It is simply a matter of training.

Training people is easy.  If they are children, this is especially easy.  But even adults can be trained to think differently, or perceive differently.  Most people are quite wishy-washy.  If someone becomes ill, we can foster goodwill and cooperation towards mages by having one show up at his house and heal him.  The list of ways in which these things are accomplished are numerous, just look at history.  The fact that you dissmiss the idea of a paradigm shift so casually tells me a couple of things about your thinking:  it is rigid and un-creative, it is useless in leading, it is slave-based and trapped in one mode of thought, and these are some of the less unflattering ones.  You need to free your mind, my friend.

Call me when you get back from you land of unicorns and rainbows.

If I had any doubts that you were not simply trolling before, I have none now.  This dissmissal of obvious facts is not an argument, but a display of amazing ignorance and a typical troll tactic.  So I'm saying you are just trolling, at this point, and wish you a good day.

If you are not trolling, however, I can only say that your comments make me weep for humanity (metaphorically speaking).  The huge aversion you display towards achieving a relatively simple solution that benefits everyone is indicative of tremendous bias and cynicism, not to mention a fundamental failure to understand human motivation.  People ultimately want what is best for themselves.  It is not hard to convince them what is best for them and what is not, especially if you are patient, and most especially if you can do so with concrete reality rather than mere propoganda.  If this is not obvious to you, well...you need to free your mind, like I said.  Until then, there can be no conversation with you, because you are trapped in very narrow thinking, trapped in an artificial paradigm designed to create internal turmoil and ultimately revolts and armed rebellions. 

It's sad to see such limited vision.  Sad, but not surprising.  Unfortunately, limited vision is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Unable to see a way out, the same errors are perpetrated perenially, thereby reinforcing the short sightedness that created the problem in the first place.  Ideally, such short sightedness would exist only in the minds of people who are in follower positions, not leadership positions.  A leader is not infected with such limitations, but many people in leadership positions are not really leaders, but are merely manipulators and confidence men.  But leaders do arise, usually in times of crisis, so we shall see what happens in DA3.

At any rate, like I said, there can be no conversation with you.  All you are doing is hammering away with your dogma based on a very narrow and self destructive paradigm you refuse to let go.  Or you are trolling.  Either way....

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Once again you present your opinion as fact. the biggest problem with your argument is that we have no clue how prone mages to possesion in general. And yet for some reason you shoot down any argument that says that the need some much needed reform for the safety of the common people.

You mean the thing you constantly do?

We've seen how prone mages are to possesion.
Yet it's you who continualy diminished their threat and demonizes the Chantry/Templars.

The mages don't have it as rough as so many of you claim - and even many mages confirm as much.
But that hardly matters..because everyone is wrong except you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Maniccc wrote...

Umm...that was not a strawman.  A strawman is a logical fallacy that occurs when making an argument.  It occurs in the premises used to derive a conclusion.  I was not making an argument with those statements, but a general summary that is by and large correct.  So no, there was no strawman.[/quote]

And you are a troll.
A general suimmary of your posting that is by large correct?
there is nothing correct about your summary. Nothing.



[quote]
THIS is a strawman.  You are deriving a specific conclusion based on a general summary of what others have said.  You are treating a summary as an argument for something.  That is your strawman.  Get it?  Well, you probably don't. [/quote]

It would help if you made proper sense and didn't use strawmen and rediucule of your opposition.



[quote]
Semantics, and irelevant to my post, but this irrelevancy is forgivable because you confused a general summary with an argument.  All you are doing is repeating your dogma, a pointless exercise.[/quote]

All you are doing is repeating yours.
Semantics are generally importnat given that words have meaning.



[quote]
[quote]Good luck with that.
You'll accomplish that when you remove fear of death from humantiy completely. Which is never..[/quote]

I find it amusing that you say this, as if paradigm shifts in cultures do not occur all the time.  It is not hard to create a paradigm shift in the minds of people, it just takes time and persistence and consistency.  It is simply a matter of training.[/quote]

You wont change basic human nature OR rational behavior.
Fear of mages is rational.


[quote]
The fact that you dissmiss the idea of a paradigm shift so casually tells me a couple of things about your thinking:  it is rigid and un-creative, it is useless in leading, it is slave-based and trapped in one mode of thought, and these are some of the less unflattering ones.  You need to free your mind, my friend.[/quote]

And you need ot get off your high-horse.
You want me to analyze your posts? You want to see what your posts tell me?
Trust me, you don't.
It's NOT flattering. Not even a bit.





[quote]
If I had any doubts that you were not simply trolling before, I have none now.  This dissmissal of obvious facts is not an argument, but a display of amazing ignorance and a typical troll tactic.  So I'm saying you are just trolling, at this point, and wish you a good day.[/quote]

What facts?


[quote]
If you are not trolling, however, I can only say that your comments make me weep for humanity (metaphorically speaking). [/quote]

The sentiment is returned.


[quote]
The huge aversion you display towards achieving a relatively simple solution that benefits everyone is indicative of tremendous bias and cynicism, not to mention a fundamental failure to understand human motivation. [/quote]

There is nothing simple about it and it's not a realistic solution to begin with.


[quote]
People ultimately want what is best for themselves.  It is not hard to convince them what is best for them and what is not, especially if you are patient, and most especially if you can do so with concrete reality rather than mere propoganda.  If this is not obvious to you, well...you need to free your mind, like I said. [/quote]

It is exactly the reality of the situation that makes them fear mages, and propaganda is what you would introduce.

So while you call me close-minded, I see you as narrow-mined.
Walking into a minefield because your tunnel vision prevents you from seeing danger.

Confident that you can turn all people to your worlview and yet you can't even turn me - a modern and mostly liberal man.


[quote]
Until then, there can be no conversation with you, because you are trapped in very narrow thinking, trapped in an artificial paradigm designed to create internal turmoil and ultimately revolts and armed rebellions.  [/quote]

"There cna be no conversation with you" .. "I won" . .blah, blah..

Uhu....which one of us is trapped again?

[lyriumaddict104]

MisterJB wrote...

We should put those lazy mages to work.
Foregoing the possibility of abuse for a moment, mages receive free food, clothes, education and nice accomodations to boot. In a medieval setting, the mages might well be the only people besides the Kings to whom sickness is not a state of being.
Blessed Andraste said that "Magic must serve man" and I agree wholeheartedly. It's time for the mages to actually earn some of the free stuff they get.
It's really simple. Grab 10 templars and a smaller number; let's say 3; of Spirit Healers. Place them in an empty room, that's all you need, and place a sign on the door that says: "Free Healing" Bam, you've made the world a better place.

Honestly, if someone who chose to become a Spirit Healer is not likely to be dangerous in the first place. It's those Entropy guys you should watch out for, their spells are sick. There is really no good use for "Waking Nightmare."

I don't understand where this comes from, the idea that mages are lazy just because they appear to have more than the rest of Thedas in the way of comfort and luxury. You may not like them or believe that they should be freer than they are but that doesn't mean that mages don't work for what they do have, or that mundanes give them handouts. As I believe the tranquil in the camp at Ostagar told the Warden, the Circle makes money off of the enchanted weapons and armor it provides mundanes. That's a service.. They can also make and sell health potions. Have you played the mage origin yet? If you go around the tower you can see senior mages instructing apprentices and children on how to properly use their talents. It's more of a practical education than a useless luxury they receive based on their "pedigree" or a privilege they're born into. If you're looking for a specific class to blame for having it better than everyone else and not having to earn or work for it, take the nobles. They're the ones to likely receive an education on more than just basics and to never fall ill or die of a disease that can be prevented if one has a healthy diet and lives in a decent, sanitary environment. The mages aren't to blame for the poor living conditions of every underclass in Thedas. And being grateful for what one does have shouldn't come at the cost of taking responsibility for the way one class deprives another. Basically, I don't think the mages in the Tower sit around on their bums, stuffing their faces with sweet tarts and wine while the rest of Thedas slaves away at the medieval equivalent of a 9 to 5 job. They are locked away in a tower most of their lives, so most of them likely do their best to be productive and resourceful with what they're allowed to do. Besides, how active are the templars who guard them anyway? They're living in the lap of luxury as well. How much work is it to stand around and stare at mages all day? Of course, they probably get to exercise their sword arms occasionally, when given the chance to lop off a mage's head. Maybe they should be sent out on patrol with the regular army from time to time, make them work for all the free stuff they're likely getting while living in the same tower as the mages?

IMO, Andraste's claim that magic must not rule over man was an argument against Tevinter's reason for ruling over others, that their magic didn't give them the right to subjugate and oppress those born without it. I don't expect it to be used as an excuse to inprison or abuse mages. I interpret "magic must serve man" as a way to look at it as a tool to be used for the greater good of all elf and mankind. However, that doesn't mean that magic makes the men and women themselves into a tool to be wielded and manipulated at the discretion of their "betters", those with no magical talents at all. Turning mages into slaves isn't any better than the Tevinter mages enslaving mundanes. Also, a society that allows mages to use their talents by choice, for the benefit of others, based upon an understanding, healthy appreciation of, and respect for their abilities is preferable to one that exploits their talents when convenient. Most of their lives mages are told they are cursed and perhaps are treated as less than mundanes and yet occassionally these very mundanes might realize the mages have something good to offer and then their talents aren't a curse, right? Better that mages have the choice to serve than to be taken out on a leash and forced to help those who hate them.

[TEWR]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So what?
Now you're kicking people out based on ideas?
What happened to free speech?

Thedas doesn't have any notion of free speech. What it does have is a notion of genocide -- used by Wynne in regards to killing all the Mages if they broke free -- and I'd argue that calling for the Tranquilization of all Mages in one Circle is a genocide of the soul.

This is a middle-age society we're talking about with mages being a real threat and a real problem. Templars don't just throw away much-needed personell because they said someoen thing you didnt' like.

Right, because one Templar is such a big deal. Throwing him out is such a big deal. 

In Ferelden, saying something like that would've resulted in Alrik being canned. Gregoir was willing to send a Templar that was making crude and perverted comments around female recruits and Mages on a dead-end job in the Bannorn so he wouldn't threaten any of the people in the Circle.

If a Mage talks about Mage supremacy, he'd be made Tranquil or killed in a heartbeat. Whereas a Templar can say something akin to the "Tranquil Solution" and the most he gets is a "No." while he retains his position as a Templar.

Worse still, Meredith expelled Samson from the Templars for delivering letters between two Mages that were lovers. So apparently, delivering letters in Kirkwall means you can't be a Templar anymore, but advocating that all Mages be turned into emotionless husks is alright.

Right... keep on saying Alrik should've stayed in the Templars Lotion. I'm sure that'll earn you some points.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Gregoir was willing to send a Templar that was making crude and perverted comments around female recruits and Mages on a dead-end job in the Bannorn so he wouldn't threaten any of the people in the Circle.

Nicely done. When does that happen?

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:28 .

[TEWR]

You know that ensorcelled Templar in Broken Circle under the control of the Desire Demon? Kill him and you get a missive that he received which, as he peeled back some of what it was saying, would've resulted in him being sent on a mission outside the Circle where he'd either find his calling as a Templar or quit the organization.

Here's the codex itself:

Notice of Censure

Templar Drass, your remarks in front of the recruits are only the latest in a series of troubling events. I am beginning to suspect that you may not be suited to the devotional requirements of training. Perhaps it is time for a personal evaluation of your career path within the templars. I will schedule some time after the current deployment to discuss options elsewhere in the organization. 

--Attendant Cerand, assistant to Knight-Commander Greagoir

(A note is scribbled in the corner.) "Attendant who? Options? Code for dead-end duty on a hedge-mage hunt in the Bannorn."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 janvier 2013 - 05:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So what?
Now you're kicking people out based on ideas?
What happened to free speech?

Thedas doesn't have any notion of free speech. What it does have is a notion of genocide -- used by Wynne in regards to killing all the Mages if they broke free -- and I'd argue that calling for the Tranquilization of all Mages in one Circle is a genocide of the soul.

If you want to force 20th century ocncepts, then so can I.
Free Speech stays.

Let's also not forget how bad tings in Kirkwall got. Meredith was not the only one thinking of Annulment.
Like it or not, the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.

If a Mage talks about Mage supremacy, he'd be made Tranquil or killed in a heartbeat. Whereas a Templar can say something akin to the "Tranquil Solution" and the most he gets is a "No." while he retains his position as a Templar.

It's a legitimate solution, just like anulment is. Deal with it.

Right... keep on saying Alrik should've stayed in the Templars Lotion. I'm sure that'll earn you some points.

Nice strawman. Because that's not what I'm saying.
Alarik has no buisness being in ANY position of authority, but that has nothing to do with his comments.

You basicly want to institute thought police.