135 réponses à ce sujet

[New Display Name]

Characters like Merrill don't believe in the Maker, yet she is theistic.
The warden could conceivably then believe in another god or higher power.

[spikesagitta]

Can we destroy the Chanty? That's what I want to know

[New Display Name]

spikesagitta wrote...

Can we destroy the Chanty? That's what I want to know

I hope so!

[Swagger7]

Oh.  My.  Gods.  Not this topic again. 

We're on the third page.  Why hasn't anyone just linked to the post where Gaider says you won't have to believe in the Maker yet?

http://social.biowar...4580/4#14615791

Modifié par Swagger7, 01 janvier 2013 - 03:25 .

[spikesagitta]

My bad. Thanks for the link though!

[nightscrawl]

Swagger7 wrote...

Oh.  My.  Gods.  Not this topic again. 

We're on the third page.  Why hasn't anyone just linked to the post where Gaider says you won't have to believe in the Maker yet?

http://social.biowar...4580/4#14615791

Because it's two months old and threads get buried? I didn't even know about that thread. I usually avoid threads about this topic. At any rate, that post partly contradicts the quotes I posted from a thread six months ago, which suggests they may have evolved a bit on the issue. To go from "There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again," to "... we would try to allow options to actively express doubt," is a pretty big step up.

It's nice to see they will provide the option, which I think is all people want, really.

Thanks for the link.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 01 janvier 2013 - 03:14 .

[Swagger7]

spikesagitta wrote...

My bad. Thanks for the link though!

You're quite welcome!

nightscrawl wrote...

Because it's two months old and threads get buried? I didn't even know about that thread. I usually avoid threads about this topic. At any rate, that post partly contradicts the quotes I posted from a thread six months ago, which suggests they may have evolved a bit on the issue. To go from "There wasn't intended to be an option to express atheism. And there certainly won't be again," to "... we would try to allow options to actively express doubt," is a pretty big step up.

It's nice to see they will provide the option, which I think is all people want, really.

Thanks for the link.

No problem.  I keep a few links to clarification posts like that one saved for when the topics get resurrected.  I think the devs didn't realize how much it annoyed people and/or were mistaken on what exactly people were asking for at first.  Eventually they either realized how many people wanted the option or realized exactly what it was people wanted.

And yeah, most people will be satisfied with the option.  There are a few diehards who won't be, but that's pretty much always the case.  <_<


EDIT: By the way, if you want to stay up to date on all that we actually know about DAI (including what I linked to) just bookmark Maclimes thread about what we know so far:
http://social.biowar.../index/14334357

Modifié par Swagger7, 01 janvier 2013 - 03:24 .

[DragonAgeTemplar]

The Inquisitor is a chantry related individual

[Emzamination]

DragonAgeTemplar wrote...

The Inquisitor is a chantry related individual

No. I'm not quite certain if you're serious, but bioware has already said this is not the case. In fact, If memory serves me correctly, nizaris recently had a thread closed to make that statement.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Act 1 during his associated quest he talks about it. And he was raised by a Dalish woman.

His mothers ethnicity is irrelevant to his personal religious beliefs. The warden could a pure blood dalish or dwarf and still become a avid believer of the maker. Also where in this quest does he state he believes in the creators?

Feynriel's dialogue addresses he believes in the Creators. His mother being a Dalish elf who believes in the Creators simply reinforces this aspect of his character.

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He actually can't. And even if he can, dislike still denotes belief in a sense. He would still believe in the Maker, but just find him to be King of the Pricks.

Yes actually he can when speaking to the grand cleric about the warden and the blight. and yes "dislike" is sufficient enough to define your religious standing. You can choose not follow the organization without going to the extreme of denouncing the gods existence. That is a political atheist view which gaider has already shut down.

Giving credit to the Hero of Ferelden for stopping the Blight is simply that, nothing more. And why shouldn't the protagonist have the right not to believe in the Maker.

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, he can't call it a scam IIRC. And insulting the Chantry talks more about hatred of an institution as opposed to a hatred of a certain belief.

Incorrect hawke can call the chantry a scam during act 3 when conversing with the grand cleric. and again you're talking about an extremist view. Being able to seperate yourself from the organization is adequate enough without vocalizing how fake you think their god is. Some things are better left to the role playing.

Actually, you're incorrect. Hawke doesn't call it a scam in Act III. You also miss the point about Hawke explicitly saying he thinks a family member is with the Maker. Furthermore, there's no reason why the protagonist needs to be religiously Andrastian.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Feynriel's dialogue addresses he believes in the Creators. His mother being a Dalish elf who believes in the Creators simply reinforces this aspect of his character.

Quest name please? I'll youtube it. All I'm hearing is interpretation as far as his (and his mothers) beliefs go. 

Giving credit to the Hero of Ferelden for stopping the Blight is simply that, nothing more. And why shouldn't the protagonist have the right not to believe in the Maker. 

That's just one option. The other option is to state the maker had nothing to do with ending the blight.

Actually, you're incorrect. Hawke doesn't call it a scam in Act III. You also miss the point about Hawke explicitly saying he thinks a family member is with the Maker. Furthermore, there's no reason why the protagonist needs to be religiously Andrastian.
.

No, you're incorrect. I wrote a topic on this exact moment last month right after it occured. I already stated why hawke would've said leandra was with the maker on the last page, you chose to ignore it. You are wrong about hawke being forced into being andrastian, lobsel. All I need to say is legacy to throw that argument out the window.

Modifié par Emzamination, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Feynriel's dialogue addresses he believes in the Creators. His mother being a Dalish elf who believes in the Creators simply reinforces this aspect of his character.

Quest name please? I'll youtube it. All I'm hearing is interpretation as far as his (and his mothers) beliefs go.

Why do you think a man raised by a Dalish elf believes in the Maker, when his dialogue indicates otherwise?

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Giving credit to the Hero of Ferelden for stopping the Blight is simply that, nothing more. And why shouldn't the protagonist have the right not to believe in the Maker. 

That's just one option. The other option is to state the maker had nothing to do with ending the blight.

Saying the Hero of Ferelden stopped the Blight is the other option, and Andrastian lore says the Maker abandoned humanity, so what's your point?

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, you're incorrect. Hawke doesn't call it a scam in Act III. You also miss the point about Hawke explicitly saying he thinks a family member is with the Maker. Furthermore, there's no reason why the protagonist needs to be religiously Andrastian..

No, you're incorrect. I wrote a topic on this exact moment last month right after it occured. I already stated why hawke would've said leandra was with the maker on the last page, you chose to ignore it. You are wrong about hawke being forced into being andrastian, lobsel. All I need to say is legacy to throw that argument out the window.

So he tells Merrill that Leandra is with the Maker because his mother believed in the Maker? That doesn't make any sense. And Legacy is a good example of the writers ignoring Anders' dialogue in Awakening and the sequel to shovel in some pro-Chantry sentiments. Aside from that, it doesn't throw a frakking thing out the window. So far, you've used blatantly ignoring what's explicitly said and imagining a different interpretation as the basis for your argument, which doesn't fly with me.

[Huntress]

spikesagitta wrote...

Can we destroy the Chanty? That's what I want to know

No. The next hero is an inquisitor, it follows they* ( inquisitors*) believe in the Maker, thats why 800+ years ago some of them ( it seems) joined the chantry, they the inquisitors have the same GOD ( The Maker) and they fight the same cause as the chantry .. magic/mages and demons.

it seems dumb to me that inquisitors who fight mages and demons to be without a belive of a higher power, something for them to grasp  on their dire hours, and that this God or power will protect them.. so on and so forth..
you can fill the blank after this.. I hope.

Modifié par Huntress, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:58 .

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Why do you think a man raised by a Dalish elf believes in the Maker, when his dialogue indicates otherwise?
 

Yes, the dialogue, I'm still waiting for that part. I haven't played Da2 in about a month so I'm a little hazy on dialogue so again, Quest name please?

Saying the Hero of Ferelden stopped the Blight is the other option, and Andrastian lore says the Maker abandoned humanity, so what's your point?

:mellow:You're not serious...


Option one : Hawke states the maker always works in mysterious ways. - Devout Andrastian

Option two : Hawke states that it was the hero of ferelden who ended the blight and the maker had nothing to do with it. - Devout sub-sect Andrastian?

How do you get religiously devout from hawke stating wo/man > god. If memory serves me, isn't that why the maker left the world in the first place? Humanity determined to find its own way. Seems more akin to blasphemy to me.

So he tells Merrill that Leandra is with the Maker because his mother believed in the Maker? That doesn't make any sense. And Legacy is a good example of the writers ignoring Anders' dialogue in Awakening and the sequel to shovel in some pro-Chantry sentiments. Aside from that, it doesn't throw a frakking thing out the window. So far, you've used blatantly ignoring what's explicitly said and imagining a different interpretation as the basis for your argument, which doesn't fly with me.

It makes perfect sense. It's called respecting her beliefs. Would Varric say leandra is with the stone or her own god? Would merrill say she's with the creators or her own god? Even if hawke doesn't believe in the maker, there is no reason to spit on the womans beliefs by sayings she's with the old gods or anything else she didn't believe in.And yes, in legacy, as I've said before, you can become a worshipper of the old gods, throwing your religiously devout hawke argument out the window. Should I grab a youtube video of hawke praying at the altar of dumat?

Modifié par Emzamination, 01 janvier 2013 - 06:52 .

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Saying the Hero of Ferelden stopped the Blight is the other option, and Andrastian lore says the Maker abandoned humanity, so what's your point?

:mellow:You're not serious...

Option one : Hawke states the maker always works in mysterious ways. - Devout Andrastian

Option two : Hawke states that it was the hero of ferelden who ended the blight and the maker had nothing to do with it. - Devout sub-sect Andrastian?

How do you get religiously devout from hawke stating wo/man > god. If memory serves me, isn't that why the maker left the world in the first place? Humanity determined to find its own way. Seems more akin to blasphemy to me.

Their religion says the Maker abandoned humanity. It's why the Chantry wants to spread the Chant to the four corners of the workd. Hawke's dialogue isn't blasphemy by any measure.

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So he tells Merrill that Leandra is with the Maker because his mother believed in the Maker? That doesn't make any sense. And Legacy is a good example of the writers ignoring Anders' dialogue in Awakening and the sequel to shovel in some pro-Chantry sentiments. Aside from that, it doesn't throw a frakking thing out the window. So far, you've used blatantly ignoring what's explicitly said and imagining a different interpretation as the basis for your argument, which doesn't fly with me.

It makes perfect sense. It's called respecting her beliefs. Would Varric say leandra is with the stone or her own god? Would merrill say she's with the creators or her own god? Even if hawke doesn't believe in the maker, there is no reason to spit on the womans beliefs by sayings she's with the old gods or anything else she didn't believe in.And yes, in legacy, as I've said before, you can become a worshipper of the old gods, throwing your religiously devout hawke argument out the window. Should I grab a youtube video of hawke praying at the altar of dumat?

Hawke isn't respecting anyone's beliefs by saying his mother is with the Maker, much less to Merrill. Postulating that she's with the Maker means he isn't atheist. Telling Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, and his religious discussions with Sebastian, contribute to this.

Also, you don't become a worshipper of Dumat; you can leave an offering for a reward, that's it.

[Medhia Nox]

I bet most atheists just celebrated Christmas because they told themselves it's "about family" - it may make them weak willed hypocrites - but it doesn't make them any more religious.

I wish Christians a Merry Christmas all the time - though I'm not one. I'm not required to be one to acknowledge their holiday - and that they are celebrating a moment commemorating the birth of their Lord and Savior.

Some atheists fight rather... religiously - for the inclusion of their particular brand of non-belief.

[Auintus]

Huntress wrote...

No. The next hero is an inquisitor, it follows they* ( inquisitors*) believe in the Maker, thats why 800+ years ago some of them ( it seems) joined the chantry, they the inquisitors have the same GOD ( The Maker) and they fight the same cause as the chantry .. magic/mages and demons.

it seems dumb to me that inquisitors who fight mages and demons to be without a belive of a higher power, something for them to grasp  on their dire hours, and that this God or power will protect them.. so on and so forth..
you can fill the blank after this.. I hope.

As I recall, the Inquisition was based around eliminating the chaos generated by maleficar and cultists. They only made the Accords with the Chantry later. They wouldn't necessarily have to be Andrastian (though much of Thedas is), it could just be a pragmatic alliance. Additionally, just because someone believes in the Maker, does not mean they agree with the Chantry.

What, people can't believe in themselves? Somebody can't perservere on the knowledge that, if they fail, hundreds or more will die? I don't think you need a belief in a god to face something with powers beyond your own. Skill and surprise can kill a mage as easily as the templar's anti-magic.

[Auintus]

Emzamination wrote...

:mellow:You're not serious...


Option one : Hawke states the maker always works in mysterious ways. - Devout Andrastian

Option two : Hawke states that it was the hero of ferelden who ended the blight and the maker had nothing to do with it. - Devout sub-sect Andrastian?

How do you get religiously devout from hawke stating wo/man > god. If memory serves me, isn't that why the maker left the world in the first place? Humanity determined to find its own way. Seems more akin to blasphemy to me.

Just saying that a person accomplished something doesn't make one athiest. Human's have accomplished a lot of great things. Saying that a god was responsible for every great accomplishment doesn't make much for sense.
If someone says, "Thank God for television." I feel perfectly justified in calling them on it. That doesn't make an inventor greater than a god.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Their religion says the Maker abandoned humanity. It's why the Chantry wants to spread the Chant to the four corners of the workd. Hawke's dialogue isn't blasphemy by any measure.

The chantry says the maker turned his back on the world twice over'.' The chantry believes the maker still guides them in their daily duties & struggles as shown with the grand cleric. Hawke stating the maker had nothing to do with ridding ferelden of the blight goes against chantry beliefs. Doubly so since his statement defys the grand clerics.

If you're looking for sub-sect andrastian dialogue then I refer you to one of the wardens lines in origins in which she tells leliana  "The blight is the makers punishment, will you defy him?" Hawke says quite the polar opposite in acknowledging it was due to the wardens skill alone..

Hawke isn't respecting anyone's beliefs by saying his mother is with the Maker, much less to Merrill. Postulating that she's with the Maker means he isn't atheist. Telling Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, and his religious discussions with Sebastian, contribute to this.

Also, you don't become a worshipper of Dumat; you can leave an offering for a reward, that's it.

 
Hawke is respecting his mothers beliefs. Leandra believed in the maker, therefore one would acknowledge her as being with her god, no matter who they're speaking to.

Speaking of feynriel, I take it this creator dialogue doesn't exist since you've been side stepping it.

On the matter of dumat - Link

The Altar of Dumat is an optional side quest in the Legacy DLC for Dragon Age II. It involves the collection of four ancient Tevinter artifacts, then deciding whether or not to use the artifacts to perform a ritual in honor of Dumat, an Old God.

Also here is a video of hawkes prayer to dumat

^To worship or not to worship, that is the question 

[Emzamination]

Auintus wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

:mellow:You're not serious...


Option one : Hawke states the maker always works in mysterious ways. - Devout Andrastian

Option two : Hawke states that it was the hero of ferelden who ended the blight and the maker had nothing to do with it. - Devout sub-sect Andrastian?

How do you get religiously devout from hawke stating wo/man > god. If memory serves me, isn't that why the maker left the world in the first place? Humanity determined to find its own way. Seems more akin to blasphemy to me.

Just saying that a person accomplished something doesn't make one athiest. Human's have accomplished a lot of great things. Saying that a god was responsible for every great accomplishment doesn't make much for sense.
If someone says, "Thank God for television." I feel perfectly justified in calling them on it. That doesn't make an inventor greater than a god.

It's not supposed to vocally convey atheism. It does however convey that hawke doesn't believe in the makers power without making a extremist statement such as "The hero of ferelden defeated the blight, not some non-existant god".

Modifié par Emzamination, 01 janvier 2013 - 07:47 .

[Huntress]

Auintus wrote...

Huntress wrote...

No. The next hero is an inquisitor, it follows they* ( inquisitors*) believe in the Maker, thats why 800+ years ago some of them ( it seems) joined the chantry, they the inquisitors have the same GOD ( The Maker) and they fight the same cause as the chantry .. magic/mages and demons.

it seems dumb to me that inquisitors who fight mages and demons to be without a belive of a higher power, something for them to grasp  on their dire hours, and that this God or power will protect them.. so on and so forth..
you can fill the blank after this.. I hope.

As I recall, the Inquisition was based around eliminating the chaos generated by maleficar and cultists. They only made the Accords with the Chantry later. They wouldn't necessarily have to be Andrastian (though much of Thedas is), it could just be a pragmatic alliance. Additionally, just because someone believes in the Maker, does not mean they agree with the Chantry.

What, people can't believe in themselves? Somebody can't perservere on the knowledge that, if they fail, hundreds or more will die? I don't think you need a belief in a god to face something with powers beyond your own. Skill and surprise can kill a mage as easily as the templar's anti-magic.

A maleficar (plural maleficarum), "one who is depraved" in Ancient Tevene, is a MAGE who uses the forbidden arts including, but not solely restricted to, blood magic.

An apostate is a MAGE who is not part of the Circle of Magi. There are two types of apostates: hedge mages, who were never part of the Circle, and rogue mages, who have fled from the Circle. The Templar Order is charged with finding apostates and either capturing or killing them.

The Cultists are a strange group of people who are obsessed with Andraste and believe that she has been reborn once again in the form of a High Dragon.
The cultists contain plain 'cultists', 'cultist mages', 'cultist archers' and 'cultist reavers'..

Now in a world where religion has alot of power and zealot seems as righteous and true anyone who think they are same or equal to X God will be judge and killed. why? because they become a threat to what X religion is trying to teach their shee.. followers.

Don't belive me? then read about galileo live under the inquisition.

Over a period of about seven hundred years, there were many Inquisitions
mounted under Church auspices, and they varied in intensity from era
to era and place to place. That said, you can divide the Inquisition into three basic phases.
The first of them, called the Medieval Inquisition, is usually given a starting date of 1231, when the pope issued certain founding decrees. It was mainly concerned with Christian heretics, especially in southern France, whom the Church saw as a growing threat.

Then, in the late fifteenth century, came the Spanish Inquisition. It was run by clerics but effectively controlled by the Spanish crown, not by the pope, and its main targets were Jews and to alesser extent Muslims.

After that, in the mid-sixteenth century, came the Roman Inquisition, which was run from the Vatican, and was mainly concerned with Protestants. This is a very simplified outline. And all kinds of people were caught up in the Inquisition’s machinery—Jews and heretics, yes, but also witches, homosexuals, rationalists, and intellectuals.

To end this silly talk, an inquisitor who doesn't belive for what he is fighting for would be killed because as the proverb said:
No matter how you try to cover up smoke, it must come out.
A person's character cannot be long hidden.
And when everyone in that group learn's that you are a fake.. yeah..
you burn.

Modifié par Huntress, 01 janvier 2013 - 08:20 .

[Noviere]

Emzamination wrote...

Also here is a video of hawkes prayer to dumat
^To worship or not to worship, that is the question 

Just watched that video... Hawke didn't pray at all. Some disembodied voice did(Corypheus?) -- Hawke just placed the items on the altar.

Modifié par Noviere, 01 janvier 2013 - 08:24 .

[esper]

Noviere wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Also here is a video of hawkes prayer to dumat
^To worship or not to worship, that is the question 

Just watched that video... Hawke didn't pray at all. Some disembodied voice did(Corypheus?) -- Hawke just placed the items on the altar.

Considering it was an altar to an old god, it is a pretty herectic thing to do, even if Hawke did it for the (for us players) obvius trinket. From an roleplaying perspective the only reason my Hawke had to justify doing it, is that she no longer cared for Andrastian religion. Any chantry mother would tell you that, that altar had to be destroyed from an Andrastian point of view.

(And I personally think it was the demons that were the voice, the ones that attacked when you destroyed the altar)

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Their religion says the Maker abandoned humanity. It's why the Chantry wants to spread the Chant to the four corners of the workd. Hawke's dialogue isn't blasphemy by any measure. 

The chantry says the maker turned his back on the world twice over'.' The chantry believes the maker still guides them in their daily duties & struggles as shown with the grand cleric. Hawke stating the maker had nothing to do with ridding ferelden of the blight goes against chantry beliefs. Doubly so since his statement defys the grand clerics.

If you're looking for sub-sect andrastian dialogue then I refer you to one of the wardens lines in origins in which she tells leliana  "The blight is the makers punishment, will you defy him?" Hawke says quite the polar opposite in acknowledging it was due to the wardens skill alone..

You realize Leliana was ostracized because she claimed the Maker didn't abandon humanity, right? The thought that the Maker hasn't abandoned humanity can be seen with the Redcliffe knights, but Mother Hannah explained their view was wrong. Saying the Hero of Ferelden stopped the Blight simply doesn't back up your claim. Sorry.

Emzamination wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke isn't respecting anyone's beliefs by saying his mother is with the Maker, much less to Merrill. Postulating that she's with the Maker means he isn't atheist. Telling Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, and his religious discussions with Sebastian, contribute to this.

Also, you don't become a worshipper of Dumat; you can leave an offering for a reward, that's it.

 
Hawke is respecting his mothers beliefs. Leandra believed in the maker, therefore one would acknowledge her as being with her god, no matter who they're speaking to.

No, he isn't. Hawke is saying his mother is with the Maker, not that his mother or sister believed in the Maker.

Emzamination wrote...

Speaking of feynriel, I take it this creator dialogue doesn't exist since you've been side stepping it.

On the matter of dumat - Link

The Altar of Dumat is an optional side quest in the Legacy DLC for Dragon Age II. It involves the collection of four ancient Tevinter artifacts, then deciding whether or not to use the artifacts to perform a ritual in honor of Dumat, an Old God.

Also here is a video of hawkes prayer to dumat

^To worship or not to worship, that is the question 

You aren't worshipping Dumat, you're getting a reward by leaving the offering.