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[Huntress]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You aren't worshipping Dumat, you're getting a reward by leaving the offering.

The offering has been the central act of worship for human beings since ancient times.In the earliest times, sacrificial offerings of the best livestock or
first fruits of the crop were ceremonially given to the gods.
Before you know it, your giving is an act of worship

in all my runs The Altar of Dumat ends up destroyed.

Modifié par Huntress, 01 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[LobselVith8]

Huntress wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You aren't worshipping Dumat, you're getting a reward by leaving the offering.

The offering has been the central act of worship for human beings since ancient times.In the earliest times, sacrificial offerings of the best livestock or
first fruits of the crop were ceremonially given to the gods.
Before you know it, your giving is an act of worship

in all my runs The Altar of Dumat ends up destroyed.

Giving an offering so you can get a reward doesn't mean Hawke must now be an acolyte of Dumat.

[BlueMagitek]

uh... You are performing some form of worship or desire to commune with the deity by leaving an offering.

But this isn't the DA 2 forum, so please leave Hawke's religious beliefs out of it when the topic is about if the DA 3 protagonist's potential religious views.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Huntress wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You aren't worshipping Dumat, you're getting a reward by leaving the offering.

The offering has been the central act of worship for human beings since ancient times.In the earliest times, sacrificial offerings of the best livestock or
first fruits of the crop were ceremonially given to the gods.
Before you know it, your giving is an act of worship

in all my runs The Altar of Dumat ends up destroyed.

Giving an offering so you can get a reward doesn't mean Hawke must now be an acolyte of Dumat.

It does mean that Hawke committed an herectic act by any chantry standard. (Hawke reasons for doing so is left to the player)

Edit. And these sort of things are just as important as the option to say no. One thing is do say 'I don't believe in the Maker' another is doing something  that Hawke should know(or be in major denial about) is an herectic act. I am glad mechanically that the option to go through with the quest and abandon it because you play a too devout Andrastian exist. You could have been forced to actually do the offering because that is the most rewarding or forced to destory the altar. We are neither which is good.

Modifié par esper, 01 janvier 2013 - 08:58 .

[Auintus]

Emzamination wrote...
It's not supposed to vocally convey atheism. It does however convey that hawke doesn't believe in the makers power without making a extremist statement such as "The hero of ferelden defeated the blight, not some non-existant god".

It's not a lack of belief in power. It's a lack of belief in the Maker's intervention at that particular point. Giving credit to the man instead of undermining his effort by claiming he had a god behind him.

[Wulfram]

Hawke actually seems to be being more Orthodox than the Grand Cleric that case, from what I understand. The Maker isn't supposed to be helping out people nowadays - he's off in a snit because Andraste died.

[Emzamination]

BlueMagitek wrote...

uh... You are performing some form of worship or desire to commune with the deity by leaving an offering.

But this isn't the DA 2 forum, so please leave Hawke's religious beliefs out of it when the topic is about if the DA 3 protagonist's potential religious views.

As you wish.

[Auintus]

Huntress wrote...
The Cultists are a strange group of people who are obsessed with Andraste and believe that she has been reborn once again in the form of a High Dragon.
The cultists contain plain 'cultists', 'cultist mages', 'cultist archers' and 'cultist reavers'..

To end this silly talk, an inquisitor who doesn't belive for what he is fighting for would be killed because as the proverb said:
No matter how you try to cover up smoke, it must come out.
A person's character cannot be long hidden.
And when everyone in that group learn's that you are a fake.. yeah..
you burn.

That's just the one cult. The codex entry on dragon cults says they pop up all over the place, especially after the fall of Tevinter. It also says that the consumption of dragon blood gives them abilities beyond the average human.
They are fighting for peace and order. The inquisition is a group of people who stepped up and said, "Enough is enough." and fought for the average individual. A DA inquisitor wouldn't have to believe in a righteous cause.
Our real-world inquisitions are not completely accurate as parallels.

[esper]

Wulfram wrote...

Hawke actually seems to be being more Orthodox than the Grand Cleric that case, from what I understand. The Maker isn't supposed to be helping out people nowadays - he's off in a snit because Andraste died.

It depend on what Hawke meant with the statement.

My Hawke meant that man thrumps the Maker (at that point her religous feelings weren't decided).

An ultra-ortodox devout Hawke may have meant that the Maker would not interefere with his own punishement.

Either way we don't get to discuss it because Elthina doesn't like any sort of conflict and doesn't wish for an religous debate, thus either interpretation stands unchallenged.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

It does mean that Hawke committed an herectic act by any chantry standard. (Hawke reasons for doing so is left to the player)

Edit. And these sort of things are just as important as the option to say no. One thing is do say 'I don't believe in the Maker' another is doing something  that Hawke should know(or be in major denial about) is an herectic act. I am glad mechanically that the option to go through with the quest and abandon it because you play a too devout Andrastian exist. You could have been forced to actually do the offering because that is the most rewarding or forced to destory the altar. We are neither which is good.

Being an apostate is heretical as well, but Anders is still a firm believer in Andraste and the Maker, given his dialogue and his religious arguments with Merrill.

[Auintus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Being an apostate is heretical as well, but Anders is still a firm believer in Andraste and the Maker, given his dialogue and his religious arguments with Merrill.

Because belief in the Maker and obedience to the Chantry are two very different things.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

It does mean that Hawke committed an herectic act by any chantry standard. (Hawke reasons for doing so is left to the player)

Edit. And these sort of things are just as important as the option to say no. One thing is do say 'I don't believe in the Maker' another is doing something  that Hawke should know(or be in major denial about) is an herectic act. I am glad mechanically that the option to go through with the quest and abandon it because you play a too devout Andrastian exist. You could have been forced to actually do the offering because that is the most rewarding or forced to destory the altar. We are neither which is good.

Being an apostate is heretical as well, but Anders is still a firm believer in Andraste and the Maker, given his dialogue and his religious arguments with Merrill.

By the chantry's standard Anders' personal belief is herictic. And not just a little. He of course doesn't think so, but the Chantry currently have the right to decide what the official faith is.

I am not saying that not defiling the altar show that you aren't an Adrastian, but the act itself is heritic no matter what and you Hawke has to modify (or don't care about) their personal belief quite a lot to fit the act into the Andrastian faith and still claim to be devout.

Our reasons aren't forced on us your Hawke can not defile the Altar to make a statement or not, but you can't say it isn't an heretic act, because it is.

[Huntress]

Auintus wrote...

Huntress wrote...
The Cultists are a strange group of people who are obsessed with Andraste and believe that she has been reborn once again in the form of a High Dragon.
The cultists contain plain 'cultists', 'cultist mages', 'cultist archers' and 'cultist reavers'..

To end this silly talk, an inquisitor who doesn't belive for what he is fighting for would be killed because as the proverb said:
No matter how you try to cover up smoke, it must come out.
A person's character cannot be long hidden.
And when everyone in that group learn's that you are a fake.. yeah..
you burn.

That's just the one cult. The codex entry on dragon cults says they pop up all over the place, especially after the fall of Tevinter. It also says that the consumption of dragon blood gives them abilities beyond the average human.
They are fighting for peace and order. The inquisition is a group of people who stepped up and said, "Enough is enough." and fought for the average individual. A DA inquisitor wouldn't have to believe in a righteous cause.
Our real-world inquisitions are not completely accurate as parallels.

All type of religions have started as a cult.. for ... sake.

 Is not accurate because 90% of the people who were torture or interrogated were burned and before you think "couldn't they scream about what this inquisitors did to them?" NO, the inquisitors introduced a cloth into the mouth of the victim, so they couldn't speak of the atrocities commited to them.

anyway soon enough we will learn more about Da3 inquisition and how much "good" they'll bring with them.

[LobselVith8]

Then I don't disagree with you, esper.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I bet most atheists just celebrated Christmas because they told themselves it's "about family" - it may make them weak willed hypocrites - but it doesn't make them any more religious.

I wish Christians a Merry Christmas all the time - though I'm not one. I'm not required to be one to acknowledge their holiday - and that they are celebrating a moment commemorating the birth of their Lord and Savior.

Some atheists fight rather... religiously - for the inclusion of their particular brand of non-belief.

Playing a character who is atheist in a fictional world doesn't mean the player is really atheist; some of us simply prefer to shape who the protagonist is, and what the protagonist believes in. After all, I have an atheist Courier of the Mojave, a Christian Lone Wanderer of the Capital Wasteland, a Tribunal mage of the Volikar clan, and a Sithis worshipping Lycan assassin of the Dark Brotherhood.

It doesn't make sense - for me - to play a mage protagonist who believes in Andraste and the Maker, given the rhetoric of the Chantry towards mages.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 janvier 2013 - 09:37 .

[Auintus]

Huntress wrote...

All type of religions have started as a cult.. for ... sake.

 Is not accurate because 90% of the people who were torture or interrogated were burned and before you think "couldn't they scream about what this inquisitors did to them?" NO, the inquisitors introduced a cloth into the mouth of the victim, so they couldn't speak of the atrocities commited to them.

anyway soon enough we will learn more about Da3 inquisition and how much "good" they'll bring with them.

Sure, but you were lumping cultists under the one dragon cult in Haven.

Some said it was a reign of terror, but your inaccuracy lies in the fact that the spanish inquisition was built on religious grounds, while the DA inquisition was built to limit the chaos that rampant magic inflicted on Thedas. Two rather different goals.

Yeah, but for now we have to base speculation on what we do know.

[Huntress]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't make sense - for me - to play a mage protagonist who believes in Andraste and the Maker, given the rhetoric of the Chantry towards mages.

I don't know we humans are very resourceful and imaginative, a bit of History  the spanish brought many african to america as slaves, many of this slaves didn't actually accept the spanish religion but what many did was they named in secret their own god's into the spanish images. The spanish saw the slaves praying to this saint's and they decided to overlooked the suden change of colour of the images.
You see what I mean? This people who came from who knows what place, their only knowledge was hunting, they made a mockery of the spanish religion.
Now  circle mages have been taught by the chantry for a long time, so them  mentioning Andraste or the maker is not as religious as you might think, after all The maker and Andraste in Chantry territory is the only religion they have known.

[Huntress]

Auintus wrote...

Huntress wrote...

All type of religions have started as a cult.. for ... sake.

 Is not accurate because 90% of the people who were torture or interrogated were burned and before you think "couldn't they scream about what this inquisitors did to them?" NO, the inquisitors introduced a cloth into the mouth of the victim, so they couldn't speak of the atrocities commited to them.

anyway soon enough we will learn more about Da3 inquisition and how much "good" they'll bring with them.

Sure, but you were lumping cultists under the one dragon cult in Haven.

Some said it was a reign of terror, but your inaccuracy lies in the fact that the spanish inquisition was built on religious grounds, while the DA inquisition was built to limit the chaos that rampant magic inflicted on Thedas. Two rather different goals.

Yeah, but for now we have to base speculation on what we do know.

Source: http://dragonage.wik...iki/Inquisition

"The Inquisition was formed with the goal of protecting the people from the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take; blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics.

The group combed the land in search of these threats and some say *theirs was a reign of terror.* in other words: many people met their deaths.

it doesn't clarifies if everyone who died at the hands of the inquisitors  were mages.

Thats all i got.

Modifié par Huntress, 01 janvier 2013 - 11:02 .

[LobselVith8]

Huntress wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't make sense - for me[/i] - to play a mage protagonist who believes in Andraste and the Maker, given the rhetoric of the Chantry towards mages. 

I don't know we humans are very resourceful and imaginative, a bit of History  the spanish brought many african to america as slaves, many of this slaves didn't actually accept the spanish religion but what many did was they named in secret their own god's into the spanish images. The spanish saw the slaves praying to this saint's and they decided to overlooked the suden change of colour of the images. 
You see what I mean? This people who came from who knows what place, their only knowledge was hunting, they made a mockery of the spanish religion. 
Now  circle mages have been taught by the chantry for a long time, so them  mentioning Andraste or the maker is not as religious as you might think, after all The maker and Andraste in Chantry territory is the only religion they have known. 

There's a difference between invoking a curse word that involves the name of a deity or religious figure (the Maker or Andraste), and saying that you hope your god watches out for someone (Feynriel), or say that a loved one is now with your god (Leandra). It removes my agency over the protagonist. It bothered me about Hawke; if the same is the case with the Inquisitor, it'll be one reason (among some others) to avoid getting another headache with a game that is contrary to what I find entertaining in an RPG. I'm not interested in playing a pre-made protagonist when I prefer creating my own.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Nope.

[TEWR]

Quest name please?

Wayward Son, right after you've taken him from the slavers -- either by force or guile.

I think it's triggered by an investigation dialogue, and most videos I've seen on youtube of DAO or DAII tend to skip over those.

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

The warden pretty much proved the marker was real. But anyone who was not with the warden would not know that so it should still be an option. Also Hawke found some pretty strong evidence that the black city is real in one of the dlc.

And note that believing in the maker does not automaticly make you a follower of the chantry. Maker could be real but totally different from what the chantry says it is.

Did I miss something in my playthroughs? When and how did the Warden prove the existence of the Maker?

The existence of the Black City, like the existence of demons, dragons, the Fade, and magic, do not prove that there is a creator deity. The universe we live in is full of wondrous things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there is a God.

[Swagger7]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I bet most atheists just celebrated Christmas because they told themselves it's "about family" - it may make them weak willed hypocrites - but it doesn't make them any more religious.

I hate to break it to you, but very little in the modern celebration of Christmas has to do with Christianity.  It's a giant amalgamation of pre existing holidays (Yule, various Winter Solstice traditions, Saturnalia and The Feast of the Unconquered Sun) on top of all that was the Christian bit, then over all you have the modern traditions, both commercial and noncommercial.  Saying that atheists celebrating Christmas are "weak willed hypocrites" because they don't believe in a tiny portion of  the holiday tradition is as stupid as saying the same thing about Christians because they don't worship Sol Invictus.

[addiction21]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

The warden pretty much proved the marker was real. But anyone who was not with the warden would not know that so it should still be an option. Also Hawke found some pretty strong evidence that the black city is real in one of the dlc.

And note that believing in the maker does not automaticly make you a follower of the chantry. Maker could be real but totally different from what the chantry says it is.

Did I miss something in my playthroughs? When and how did the Warden prove the existence of the Maker?

The existence of the Black City, like the existence of demons, dragons, the Fade, and magic, do not prove that there is a creator deity. The universe we live in is full of wondrous things, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there is a God.

They really do not. They find a magical relic but it does not prove anything. Just like one vague line in one origins is no declaration of atheism.

People like to think something can only mean this one thing and one thing only. Find the ashes musht mean the maker is real and a line in the human noble origin means that DA:O allowed for atheist characters.

[LobselVith8]

addiction21 wrote...

They really do not. They find a magical relic but it does not prove anything. Just like one vague line in one origins is no declaration of atheism.

People like to think something can only mean this one thing and one thing only. Find the ashes musht mean the maker is real and a line in the human noble origin means that DA:O allowed for atheist characters.

That's because the Cousland protagonist can say he doesn't believe in the Maker, as a member of a society that is only exposed to Andrastian religion; the Surana protagonist can also say he doesn't worship the Maker. The Warden can tell Leliana that Andraste wasn't a divine figure. The Warden-Commander can explicitly tell Justice he doesn't believe in the Maker.

[XX-Pyro]

The Warden showing disdain for the Maker or Chantry does not mean s/he doesn't believe in the Maker. Just like I could say the Christian God is evil, and yet believe in him. (And no this isn't my belief, as I myself am a Christian, so please don't attack me for saying that.)