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[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the other Andrastian lines, like Hawke telling Feynriel that he hopes the Maker guides him, then the example of this dialogue isn't dishonest - it's one of other examples of how I don't get to shape who Hawke is. It's a concern when the Inquisitor may be just as limited.

The ability to shape a character is always limited by a myriad of things in an RPG. I, for one, wanted to lead templars into the alienage and darktown but didn't get to do it.
Ultimately, you are not forced to have your hawke express religious views, they are avoidable even if the alternative is not something you like. If Hawke doesn't talk about neither the Maker nor Andraste, there is nothing indicating that he is an Andrastian. If what you want is to have your human PC worshipping the elven phanteon, I fear you'll remain disillusioned. 

The ability to have the protagonist express that he didn't believe in the Maker was available in Origins; my Surana Warden affirmed this in Ostagar, and in Amaranthine (specifically, in dialogue with Justice). Why shouldn't we have the same level of freedom that we had in Origins to shape who our protagonist is? I don't want the Inquisitor to be as limited as Hawke was. Hawke's writen to be religiously Andrastian; his battle cries, his conversations with the Prince Sebastian, his line to Feynriel, and his line to Merrill in the wake of Leandra's death.

The fact that he has two other lines doesn't change that it's the only point of view he's permitted to express. This isn't New Vegas, where you have dialogue options that differ - being heterosexual or homosexual, for instance - since the only consistent point of view Hawke can provide is one of a religious Andrastian. Why does my apostate Hawke need to believe in the Maker and Andraste?

I see no reason why Hawke (or the Inquisitior) has to believe in this specific religion. I don't see why the choice is taken away from me. When Hawke has multiple lines across the narrative where this is his only point of view, then I take issue with it, including his line to Merrill about his mother being with the Maker. It's not as though he can say he doesn't believe in an afterlife, or that he doesn't believe in the Maker; he has only one, single point of view allowed, and the other two lines simply have him acting like a buffoon to Merrill, they don't permit him to have a different point of view on the subject.

I'm not forced to have Hawke express that one single line, but the only point of view Hawke is permitted to express is belief in the Maker and Andraste. Hawke isn't permitted to say he doesn't believe in the Maker, or that he doesn't think Andraste was a divine force; both of these dialogue options were available for The Warden.

[Sir JK]

Lobsel, I think making a mountain out of a molehill. No, you're not given the chance to reject the Chantry openly, but that does not mean Hawke is Andrastian. It leaves the actual denomination and degree of faith hanging and unresolved, which means it is whichever you prefer.

The specific dialogue option in all that remains is merely one way to deal with grief. Specifically through faith. It kind of hinges on having a religion. Choosing that one is just as much affirming faith as stating you're a believer in DAO does. There's three other options available (in five combinations) dealing with grief alone, dealing with grief by casting blame and dealing with grief by rejection.
It is not mandatory to choose "faith" here. It does not force you to choose that one and at no point is the maker mentioned in autodialogue. The choice is not taken away from you. You chose faith. Whether you like the other lines or not is immaterial. There is a choice.

Looking at the Feynriel one (at the end of the fade sequence, if that's the wrong one please point me in the right direction so I can do my research). Here we have two options and I can see this one disturbing you. The other is to ask Feynriel not to leave which has completely different implications. Arguably, the phrase could be construed to be a "good luck", a blessing of protection or a "godspeed" but I'll concede this one. Hawke will at this point use andrastian language, yes.

Looking at Sebastians dialogues (you'd be amazed how difficult it is to research Sebastian's dialogue without starting up 3 separate characters) I can see two dialogue options that might annoy you. When Grand Cleric Elthina asks for help and when Sebastian asks for direction (if there is additonal lines, point me in their direction).
I can see the Grand Cleric Elthina one disturbing you, since the diplomatic term has Hawke professing their dutybound support. Arguably it could be a very polite turn of phrase used as a civil servant (as opposed to a religious one) but it does carry religious connotations I agree. Like the other cases it is a choice, but like the Feynriel one it could be less obvious.
When giving advice to Sebastian towards the end, there's three options. Only one of which references the Maker. It is the non-comittal one. Again it could be interpreted as a turn of phrase, but has religious connotations. But then... as a non-religious advocate being asked for suggestions as to whether to choose the cloth or the crown I'd have thought the only option would be to suggest committing to the crown... but that's just me.

So we have four data points. One which is dealing with grief through faith (the only one that outright confirms belief), and three in casual language which may or may not be turns of phrases. Only one of whom is not easily avoidable (though one is being tonal and can thus also be counted as difficult to avoid). Granted, the latter three are slightly obfuscated. The first one is not by any stretch of imagination. All optional.

So Hawke is not forced to be Andrastian in any way whatsoever in those four situations.Those expressions of faith, religiosity or rite are completely optional. If something has alternatives it is not mandatory. It's sort of the definition.

The situations the warden can respond with those answers are really quite special because they're actually questions regarding faith and/or religious belonging. They're actually asking whether you believe or not.
At no point does anyone do that in DA2. So not being able to give those answers is not as unreasonable as you make it out to be. After all... noone asked.
Or do you frequently meet people who feel they must swear their non-religious affiliation in random topics? "-Nice weather we got today, don't you agree?" "I don't believe in The Maker!"

It seems to me, that what you're really asking for is not that your character shouldn't be forced to be of a certain religion but rather that you would have prefered more secular dialogue options and be given a chance to actually discuss your character's religious affiliation (or lach thereof).
So why not just say that? Skip this whole attempt to prove how mistreated you've been and just say that you'd like more of that? I for one would completely cease to oppose you (and instead support you) and quite frankly... I think you request would garner a lot more respect if you did that instead.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

I'm sorry Lobsel, but now you're being intellectually dishonest.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is written as religiously Andrastian. His only option is to express that he thinks Leandra is with the Maker; the other two dialogue options do not provide alternative views of belief. There's no alternative dialogue option where he says he doesn't believe in the Maker (via Cousland and Surana).

(emphasis mine)

See... this here is why it I wrote the first line. You first state that it is the only option and then immediatly concede two other options. If there are options, then being andrastian is not the only option. It is -a- option.

There are two other dialogue options, but neither one allows Hawke to voice a different point of view.

Therefore, Hawke can only express that he believes his mother is with the Maker; the other two dialogue options don't contradict this point of view. The narrative doesn't provide Hawke the opportunity to provide a different point of view at a different time, either. The player is never given the opportunity to have Hawke express that he doesn't believe in the Maker. The scene is limited to one single point of view: where Hawke says he believes his mother is with the Maker.

Sir JK wrote...

It is not the only one. The other alternatives do not provide alternate beliefs, but they are secular. If you do not wish to be andrastian, pick a secular option. It really is that simple.

The scene is not about faith, it is about grief. Faith is a method of dealing with that, but not the only one. The only one forcing Hawke to be andrastian in this case, is yourself. Because you chose a faith-option in a grief-related scene. It is not a forum for discussing religion. There is no need for lines rejecting the chantry in that scene. Because it is not relevant.

You may think it's not relevant, but that's your opinion, not mine. I think it's completely relevant as an expression of who I wanted Hawke to be. I don't think Hawke should invoke the Maker when he says goodbye to Feynriel (who doesn't believe in the Maker), I don't think it's necessary for Hawke to invoke the Maker's name in his battle cries, I don't think Hawke should be limited to being religiously Andrastian as his only point of view in his dialogue with Merrill and Sebastian. It's clear you and I strongly disagree about this issue.

This seems to come down to some people thinking it shouldn't be an option at all. That's simply not how I feel about the situation. I respectfully, and strongly, disagree with that point of view. I think it should be an option for the player. It was an option for The Warden, it should've been an option for Hawke, and it should be an option for the Inquisitor.

Sir JK wrote...

So please, stop moving the goal post. There is options in that scene. It can confirm faith, yes. But it need not. You do not have to choose that line. That scene does not in any way force you to be Andrastian, but it does give you the choice. Which is what you supposedly want, yes? The choice.  

It's the only view Hawke can express in that scene with Merrill. You're insinuating that Hawke doesn't have to be religiously Andrastian, but the other two lines in that scene don't permit Hawke to provide an alternative point of view. Saying that Hawke doesn't have to express that Leandra is with the Maker doesn't change that it's the only point of view Hawke can express in that scene.

The player isn't given the option to have their respective Hawke be atheist like The Warden could be. Hawke is only allowed to express the view that his mother is with the Maker; otherwise, he's simply being rude to Merrill, but neither one of those two rude lines contradict the other view where he says his mother is with the Maker. I don't see how that changes anything, especially in addition to his line to Feynriel about the Maker, his dialogue with Sebastian where he can't voice that he doesn't believe in the Maker or Andraste as a divine force (since the issue arises, again, that he can only voice the perspective of being religiously Andrastian, as in the scene where Merrill tries to comfort Hawke), and his combat dialogue.

The issue is that he's not permitted to provide an alternative point of view. Hawke only has one: where he believes in the Maker. If the writers only permitted him to express a religiously Andrastian point of view, then how am I "intellectually dishonest"?  

As for my line: the only point of view he can provide is that Leandra is with the Maker. The two other lines don't contest this point of view. They don't provide alternative points of view on the matter. You're debating the sematics of how I phrased my sentence, rather than the the fact that Hawke's only allowed to express one, single point of view about the matter, which is that Leandra is with the Maker. He's not permitted to think the Maker doesn't exist, he's not permitted to think that there isn't an afterlife; he can only think that Leandra is with the Maker. That's it; the other two lines never contest this perspective.

There is no need for Hawke to be constricted to being religiously Andrastian; there's no need to see this repeat with the Inquisitor.

As for "moving the goalpost", giving the Inquisitor the same level of freedom as The Warden to express different points of view has been the issue for the multiple threads where I addressed this concern and this specific scene, including Xil's thread where I addressed this scene to David Gaider - you know, one of the writers of Dragon Age II. I addressed my issue with how Hawke is written to be religiously Andrastian, and I addressed how I thought that we should have the same level of freedom that we had with The Warden.

You're welcome to condemn me for not phrasing it better, but please don't pretend as though my issue with how Hawke is written has changed when I addressed this scene - among others - to one of the writers of the game. I think this was a failure with Dragon Age II, and I hope it's rectified for Inquisition. I think the protagonist should be allowed to have the same level of freedom as The Warden - to think that the Maker isn't real, and that Andraste was simply a person.

[Swagger7]

This thread is like the BSN version of Groundhog Day.  We've had the same exact arguments come up with the same exact points made by both sides in at least four separate threads since the DAI forum was started.  I swear I could write both sides from memory by now. 

It's already been decided.  DAI will give you the option to state your belief in the Maker or your disbelief in the Maker and/or opposition to the Chantry.  So yes, you can be an atheist in Dragon Age and no, you don't have to be if you don't want to be:

http://social.biowar...4580/4#14615791

Now, can we all find something new to talk about?

[ReallyRue]

This topic makes no sense. It's usually people who *don't* believe in a religion that will use that deity's name in vain. For example, how many Christians are going to shout "Jesus Christ" or "God damn it" when they're annoyed? A Christian would far more likely be offended. An agnostic/atheist/etc would be more likely to use such phrases.

So the topic could easily be reversed to - why can't my character be a devout Andrastian, she keeps using the Maker's name as a curse?

[lil yonce]

^ So true.

[LobselVith8]

ReallyRue wrote...

This topic makes no sense. It's usually people who *don't* believe in a religion that will use that deity's name in vain. For example, how many Christians are going to shout "Jesus Christ" or "God damn it" when they're annoyed? A Christian would far more likely be offended. An agnostic/atheist/etc would be more likely to use such phrases.

So the topic could easily be reversed to - why can't my character be a devout Andrastian, she keeps using the Maker's name as a curse?

You're mistaken. It wasn't about curse words, it was about what the protagonist believes in. 

That said, I think Swagger has a point. No one is changing their minds about this issue, and the posts from both sides aren't persuading anyone to change their minds. Everyone pretty much made up their mind about this issue.

[Emzamination]

Huh, it seems Gaider already shut down lobsels argument months ago. Well I guess we can bury that hatchet, word of god and all that. 

[Emzamination]

^ If you want your thread locked then message a mod like ninjastan or fozee to close it ( allan hasn't been on in awhile). As far as telling people to stop replying to a thread once it's been made public, that's not something you can control, even as op.

[RaenImrahl]

I think this discussion has run its course. Thanks, all. Happy New Year!

(Locked)