439 réponses à ce sujet

[d-boy15]

"Oh I get it, so the Reapers are like fire. They burn away the bigger trees so the smaller trees
have a chance to grow".

what does this has anything to do with synthetic & organic conflict?

don't get me wrong, I like her idea but it seem she completely misunderstanding about the
reaper motive.

well, may be she understand about the "fire burn" line even more than writers who wrote it...

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

If the Reapers didn't exist all organic life would either be extinct or opressed by Synthetic life forms.

Prove it.

Without making an appeal to authority.  

Also, one instance does not mean all instances will have the same outcome. One occurence of peace does not absolve the billions of years of observation that the Catalyst has. 

I wasn't aware the Catalyst has billions of years of observation, it seems to take as many opportunities as possible to make sure potentially observable situations are stopped as soon as possible. 

See Zha'til, Metacon War, Geth before Sovereign, Geth and Quarian and relationship after Soveriegn, and the Quarians potential victory over the Geth before the Reaper war. 

I also used that example to illustrate how a simple rebellion is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, it's the eventual or immediate outcome that matters, one that has never been observed which causes the Catalyst's problem to remain a completely worthless component of the story. 

[Eterna]

Mr.House wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Using the geth as evidence and defense is very poor when it was the quarians fault the geth fought back(quarians striked first, not the geth because the quarians knew they broke the law and didn't want the council to find out) and it was the Reapers fault the geth started to be outright hostile to organics.

It doesn;t matter why they did it, it is the fact that they did. Why would an AI care about circumstance? 

Um the Reapers made the heritics, the faction of geth that ARE attacking organics. The true geth want to be left in peace. No Reapers, no heritics.  Also it DOES matter why it happen. You can not ignore that because it blows your whole argument out the window faster then light.

Not really. My argument is that Synthetics invevitably rebel against their creators, with disastorous effects. The reason is irrelevant. The Geth forced their creators to live a nomadic life in space, this was without Reaper influence. If they hadn't shown merc, they would have been wiped out. 

The catalyst never says anything about circumstance, he only says "The created will always rebel against their creators" Which is the case. He is not wrong. 

[Jadebaby]

Eterna5 wrote...

If the Reapers didn't exist all organic life would either be extinct or opressed by Synthetic life forms.

In the past? Maybe .. After peace on rannoch? NO!

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

Not really. My argument is that Synthetics invevitably rebel against their creators, with disastorous effects. The reason is irrelevant. The Geth forced their creators to live a nomadic life in space, this was without Reaper influence. If they hadn't shown merc, they would have been wiped out.

They did. 

Now what? 

The catalyst never says anything about circumstance, he only says "The created will always rebel against their creators" Which is the case. He is not wrong. 

And, as the Geth not actually wiping out the Quarians or all organic life or expressing the desire to do either, a rebellion remains completely irrelevant. 

[Eterna]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If the Reapers didn't exist all organic life would either be extinct or opressed by Synthetic life forms.

In the past? Maybe .. After peace on rannoch? NO!

Until the organics made other AI. 

[Jadebaby]

Eterna5 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If the Reapers didn't exist all organic life would either be extinct or opressed by Synthetic life forms.

In the past? Maybe .. After peace on rannoch? NO!

Until the organics made other AI. 

thats a moot point because the geth would always be around to guide future synthetic races.

[Eterna]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

And, as the Geth not actually wiping out the Quarians or all organic life or expressing the desire to do either, a rebellion remains completely irrelevant. 

So your saying the Catalyst is wrong about Synthetics rebelling even though we cleary see an instance of Synthetics rebelling? 

Nothing you have said disproves his logic. 

[Eterna]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If the Reapers didn't exist all organic life would either be extinct or opressed by Synthetic life forms.

In the past? Maybe .. After peace on rannoch? NO!

Until the organics made other AI. 

thats a moot point because the geth would always be around to guide future synthetic races.

Pure conjecture. We don't even know if the Geth and Quarian peace is permenant. 

[Ieldra]

Carlos3lance wrote...
It's not that we don't comprehend..Sure, it makes sense. If you remember that prothean sphere in Me1, the one you insert Sha'ira's trinket in, it gives you a flashback of prehistorical man being studied by the protheans.

Mankind and other races in that stage were left alone to grow and prosper while protheans and their supporting races were whiped out.

From a cold, calculating perspective, the measure is like landscaping. But come on, pulling weeds and chopping up trees can't possibly apply to sentient races

From a cold, calculating perspective.....like the Catalyst's. That part has always made perfect sense to me. In fact even the whole scenario of inevitable conflict makes sense with a little background info. The only problem is making peace on Rannoch, which is narratively significant even though it doesn't exactly prove anything.

We, who are invested wholly in the ME universe and it's characters are a bit to attached to let that fly - someone new who just got into it might not be as biased.

Yeah. That must be why I get the impression some people here use "It makes no sense" as a synonym for "I don't like it".

[KiwiQuiche]

Eterna5 wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If the Reapers didn't exist all organic life would either be extinct or opressed by Synthetic life forms.

In the past? Maybe .. After peace on rannoch? NO!

Until the organics made other AI. 

Then Starbrat should say he's saving organics from their own stupidity since they obviously can't take a hint.

Beside, organics can kill each other well enough without outside iterference.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 01 janvier 2013 - 10:49 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

And, as the Geth not actually wiping out the Quarians or all organic life or expressing the desire to do either, a rebellion remains completely irrelevant. 

So your saying the Catalyst is wrong about Synthetics rebelling even though we cleary see an instance of Synthetics rebelling?

What?

I've used the term rebellion to describe the actions of the Geth in every post I've made. 

My point is that the Geth rebelling against the Quarians is irrelevant because they didn't wipe them out, or any other form organic life, and have never expressed the desire to without the Reapers intervening. 

A basic rebellion is irrelevant unless something happens after that to prove the Catalyst's concerns as warranted.

And nothing ever has.

Nothing you have said disproves his logic. 

I can't disprove what it says, it has no legitimate point to argue against, there is no logic. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 01 janvier 2013 - 10:51 .

[Eterna]

frudi wrote...

That argument is wholly unsubstantiated by anything in ME lore. If you want to argue it, you have to supply some proof for it.

Leviathan Thralls being wiped out by their own creations, The Leviathans themselves, Morning War, EDI gaining conciousness, Project Overlord.

But they did show mercy and the Quarians were not wiped out. Even if they had been, the Geth were in no position to wipe out all the other organics in the galaxy. In any case, they just secluded themselves in their own little corner behind the Veil, not seeking any conflict with anyone.

That still doesn;t chnage the fact they attacked their creators.

On the other hand, I do seem to remember the races of the galaxy repeatedly being on the verge of getting wiped out by the Rachni... an organic race, uplifted and abused by both other organics and the Reapers.

Irrelevant as the Catalyst isn't programmed to deal with that. It isn;t his purpose. 

Again, conflict is not the problem. It's the supposed inevitable extermination of organics that is supposed to follow from it. THAT NEVER HAPPENED! EVER!

Leviathan thralls were going extinct at an alarming rate, thus the Catalyst was made. 

Modifié par Eterna5, 01 janvier 2013 - 10:51 .

[Eterna]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
What?

I've used the term rebellion to describe the actions of the Geth in every post I've made. 

My point is that the Geth rebelling against the Quarians is irrelevant because they didn't wipe them out, or any other form organic life, and have never expressed the desire to without the Reapers intervening. 

A basic rebellion is irrelevant unless something happens after that to prove the Catalyst's concerns as warranted.

And nothing ever has.

Leviathan thralls going extinct. 

I can't disprove what it says, it has no legitimate point to argue against, there is no logic. 

Yes there is, you're just being obtuse. 

[Someone With Mass]

The problem is that the Reapers are also burning the smaller trees (not that accurate of an analogy in terms of the supposed problem the game presents, but whatever) once they've grown up, so they're not really doing anyone a favor.

For that matter, the Catalyst isn't doing anything to discourage organics from building synthetics either, so he has a rather unreachable goal, since he's letting those "small trees" grow right back again.

[d-boy15]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yeah. That must be why I get the impression some people here use "It makes no sense" as a synonym for "I don't like it". 

or may be some people here also use "It makes sense" as a synonym for "I like the ending". 

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
What?

I've used the term rebellion to describe the actions of the Geth in every post I've made. 

My point is that the Geth rebelling against the Quarians is irrelevant because they didn't wipe them out, or any other form organic life, and have never expressed the desire to without the Reapers intervening. 

A basic rebellion is irrelevant unless something happens after that to prove the Catalyst's concerns as warranted.

And nothing ever has.

Leviathan thralls going extinct.

Right, any actual evidence? 

That it's inevitable? Always happens? Results in all organic life from being wiped out? 

A couple of thrall races, advanced civilizations, going extinct isn't exactly compelling proof since wiping out advanced species is what the Catalyst does. 

I can't disprove what it says, it has no legitimate point to argue against, there is no logic. 

Yes there is, you're just being obtuse. 

Sorry Andy Dufresne. 

[Jadebaby]

Eterna5 wrote...
Pure conjecture. We don't even know if the Geth and Quarian peace is permenant.

and u call other people obtuse. What other reason would they have to go back to fighting?

it is confirmed as a peace and they fight along side each other in the final battle. Also synthetic races don't have a lifespan or used by date.. So what proof is there to suggest it wont last and the geth won't be around? Other than the catalysts spiel, which is the very thing this is refuting.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 01 janvier 2013 - 11:10 .

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If the Reapers didn't exist all organic life would either be extinct or opressed by Synthetic life forms.

Prove it.

Without making an appeal to authority.  

That's like saying make a Cake, without any one making a Cake, unless the Cake is a lie. Because you know, **** logic.

So by judging my analogy, does that mean the Organic Vs Synthetic struggle is a lie? Lol @ ME3 Writer's and BSN's logic.

[Jadebaby]

d-boy15 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yeah. That must be why I get the impression some people here use "It makes no sense" as a synonym for "I don't like it". 

or may be some people here also use "It makes sense" as a synonym for "I like the ending". 

this is entirely what this thread is about. Drayfsh said it best.

[Keatstwo]

Eh, there's certainly a possibility of synthetics wiping out organics given that synthetic life is capable of simply outperforming organic on every level. Sure, Rannoch, EDI etc. proves that conflict can be avoided / resolved, but as Eterna5 is saying things would have been a lot worse if Shepard hadn't been there to resolve it.

Over millions / billions of years a situation is going to arise where organic / synthetic conflict can't be peaceably resolved and then you're in trouble.

The reapers prevent things from advancing to the stage where synthetic life has advanced far enough to eradicate or subjugate organics easily should a conflict arise. It's cold and clinical but it isn't illogical.