152 réponses à ce sujet

[Tarot Redhand]

Question - Would a new vfx be in order for this challenge? I am thinking along the lines of the effect used for my Micro Maps and also similarly in my mini module A is for Adventure. The problem is that unlike conventional cc this will require a little scripting to drive it. And I've also got to figure how to attach the vfx to npc's as opposed to the pc.

TR

[Rolo Kipp]

<allowing a little light...>

henesua wrote...

I mean the art assets - portraits, models etc... This is a CCC release so I don't want to include assets which are another's work unless they are participating in the project. For example if Cervantes contributes a version of that siamese cat I am using or another we will include cats, and if someone shrinks and animates BabaYaga's frog we can include toads.

All that said, I will still write scripts for your system.

Ahhh! Of course. Should have figured that out on my own :-/

Well, as another (couple) friends have pointed out, my eyes may have been too big for my hourglass. <old saying you just made up?>
Yup. <thought so>

For *this* month, I'm trimming the list of Mounted Familiars to the first three avians - Raven, Owl & Parrot, with Falcon a possible fourth, if I get the Homonculus to a satisfactory state early enough.

I'll continue to make these until I've got a more complete list, but I'm aiming for just those three for now.

Like you, I'll be making a system (Max template) to make things easier for people to add their own later.

<...to infiltrate his cob-webby head>

[Rolo Kipp]

<always eager...>

Tarot Redhand wrote...
Question - Would a new vfx be in order for this challenge? I am thinking along the lines of the effect used for my Micro Maps and also similarly in my mini module A is for Adventure. The problem is that unlike conventional cc this will require a little scripting to drive it. And I've also got to figure how to attach the vfx to npc's as opposed to the pc.

Yup. One order of VFX, please :-)

Attaching the vfx is the same for NPCs, just apply effect to them instead of oPC.

<...always greedy>

[henesua]

I'm considering making a substantial change to innocuous familiars, but before I do so I want to ensure that it won't create a barrier to others using my system. The gist is that I want to put most of the things that a familiar gets on their hide: Special feats, abilities, skill bonuses, possible bonus spells etc... With the default familiars there won't be all that much of this, BUT this becomes quite beneficial when introducing special familiars.

As I mentioned above I have implemented different appearances for familiars, and different appearances can be linked to different benefits received by the familiar's master. But the different appearances of a familiar do not change the creature blueprint. The easiest way to swap special abilities in and out is to have these abilities on the familiar's hide, and exchange hides based on appearance.

The downside is that this relies on various item property 2das. I suspect that most builders will have fully kitted out these 2das already, and so any creature hides that I make might have the wrong item properties on them - wrong feats... etc... - because our item property 2das wouldn't merge properly. One way around this will be to pad the item property 2das a great deal.

Question 1: is it worth it for potential users that I pad these 2das a couple hundred indexes?
Question 2: will this cause a problem for the CCC? I understand the CCC has its own padding rules. If I exceed these will it be a problem?

Modifié par henesua, 06 janvier 2013 - 05:13 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<weighing in...>

henesua wrote...
I'm considering making a substantial change to innocuous familiars, but before I do so I want to ensure that it won't create a barrier to others using my system. The gist is that I want to put most of the things that a familiar gets on their hide: Special feats, abilities, skill bonuses, possible bonus spells etc... With the default familiars there won't be all that much of this, BUT this becomes quite beneficial when introducing special familiars.

This is *my* preferred methodology -  implement new systems in parallel. I do encourage this. In fact, I'm pretty damn excited about it :-)

As I mentioned above I have implemented different appearances for familiars, and different appearances can be linked to different benefits received by the familiar's master. But the different appearances of a familiar do not change the creature blueprint. The easiest way to swap special abilities in and out is to have these abilities on the familiar's hide, and exchange hides based on appearance.

The familiars of Amethyst fit this system perfectly. Familiars are helping spirits bound by various bargains into mortal creatures. The greater the power of the spirit, the stronger the host must be, but the death of the host doesn't mean the loss (except in the short-term) of the spirit so bound.

Interesting side-note, Bother discovered her alternate form during a particularly confusing and nasty period where my familiar spirit - possessing a raven - was herself possessed by a rather clever, if not quite clever-enough hag who had an axe to grind (literally) with me. Now Bother can (usually just to annoy me) take the form of a nasty old storm hag. And she's taken to *experimenting* with an old ratty cauldron *shudders*.

So, yeah, I do like the alternate appearances for familiars :-)

The downside is that this relies on various item property 2das. I suspect that most builders will have fully kitted out these 2das already, and so any creature hides that I make might have the wrong item properties on them - wrong feats... etc... - because our item property 2das wouldn't merge properly. One way around this will be to pad the item property 2das a great deal.

Question 1: is it worth it for potential users that I pad these 2das a couple hundred indexes?

I think so, yes.

Question 2: will this cause a problem for the CCC? I understand the CCC has its own padding rules. If I exceed these will it be a problem?

I'll let AD make the final determination on that, since he's doing all the heavy lifting these days :-)

However, my own feeling is that the various padding rules and 2DA coordination guidelines were doomed from the start, as they tried to work nice with every other major project out there. 

Hence, I no longer bother trying to make my entries dodge between the old CCCs, the CEP *and* the Q. I just add them onto the end of the Bioware reserved lines and let builders adjust them to their particular custom 2DAs... which are *always* different :-P

<...far too much>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 06 janvier 2013 - 05:49 .

[Tarot Redhand]

Rolo I am making no guarantees as to anything coming of the idea I've had. If I can find just the right graphics to play around with, if I can make it work, if I can make enough of them and if I can get it done on time then you'll get your order. I hope your cheek is large enough (as in tongue in). My current thoughts are along the lines of a certain superhero TV show from the 60's boy wonder.

TR

[Rolo Kipp]

<trying to look...>

No guarantees?! What?!
Lol, no worries, mate :-)
I'll take what I can get <that's how he works>
What she said.<and he's quite cheeky enough, we think>
*grin*

<...shocked>

[henesua]

Equipping creature items when the familiar spawns is working out well. I was concerned about creating an item in the familiar's inventory, but its working out fine.

So now comes a great deal of work. I'll be creating familiar hides and bites for levels 1-20 of each familiar subtype.

• I'm currently working on Bats which have only one type and their bite does not scale up so 20 familiar blueprints, one bite item, and 20 hides.
• Then comes the Rat and Dire Rat. Each will have different properties so that will result in 20 familiar blueprints, one bite item for Rat, a few different bites for the Dire Rat, and 40 hides.
• Then the birds: parrot, raven, seagull, which each look different but have the same stats. Result: 20 bird blueprints, one bite item, and 20 hides.
• Special familiars will require additional weapon items and hide items.

Theoretically I could just create 20 base familiar blueprints and use the same 20 for all creatures, BUT I can't figure out how to change the voiceset, the perception distance and the speed by script. NWNX can probabnly do this, but I would like a way to handle this with vanilla NWN.

Time for me to get to work, but first I need to finish the laundry. Its been a big day for cleaning up the house.

Modifié par henesua, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:42 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<peering...>

If you'll add owl to that list I'll add seagull to mine *and* make an owl creature model :-)

Edit: I've added a "shoulder" and a "familiar" dummy between the geometry and the base. I move the familiar dummy to animate the familiar mounting the mages shoulder and then leaving. I move the shoulder dummy to the correct offset for that race/gender TaVFX. Hence, once I have the anim looking good on human male, I only need to adjust the shoulder dummy to create each of the other versions.

Also, adding a scale value to the "familiar" dummy allows me to scale the vfx... so my ravens, for example will be 120% the Rebecca Ann ravens (I'm using scale for the appear/disappear anims).

When I get the anims looking good, I'll map them over from the raven to the other avians and we'll see how big/small they all look.

<...owlishly>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 07 janvier 2013 - 03:01 .

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Rolo Kipp wrote...

Question 2: will this cause a problem for the CCC? I understand the CCC has its own padding rules. If I exceed these will it be a problem?

I'll let AD make the final determination on that, since he's doing all the heavy lifting these days :-)

Pad all you want.  It's very easy for me to add lines to a 2da file.  I don't have any rules right now.

henesua wrote...

Equipping creature items when the
familiar spawns is working out well. I was concerned about creating an
item in the familiar's inventory, but its working out fine.

So now comes a great deal of work. I'll be creating familiar hides and bites for levels 1-20 of each familiar subtype.

• I'm
  currently working on Bats which have only one type and their bite does
  not scale up so 20 familiar blueprints, one bite item, and 20 hides.
• Then
  comes the Rat and Dire Rat. Each will have different properties so that
  will result in 20 familiar blueprints, one bite item for Rat, a few
  different bites for the Dire Rat, and 40 hides.
• Then the birds:
  parrot, raven, seagull, which each look different but have the same
  stats. Result: 20 bird blueprints, one bite item, and 20 hides.
• Special familiars will require additional weapon items and hide items.

I like the sound of your system.  To save on overloading the item palettes for DMs trying to log in (a 16k limit that isn't easily bypassed through moving blueprints to a hak), have you considered doing the bite/skin/etc. items as "off-palette"?  Create/store them in a non-player area, each with a different tag based on appearance and familiar level, then use the familiar summoning script to copy the desired item(s) to the familiar and get them equipped.



Nice ideas so far, folks.  I have no idea what I'm going to do this month, but I will contribute something.

[gutwrench66kg]

Rolo: Dont' forget that we've got a pretty decent snow owl in Project Q that you might use for a base.. would love to see a great horned owl!

[Tarot Redhand]

The thought of a gnome magician with an Eagle Owl familiar perched on their shoulder really tickled me ().

TR

[henesua]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...
To save on overloading the item palettes for DMs trying to log in (a 16k limit that isn't easily bypassed through moving blueprints to a hak), have you considered doing the bite/skin/etc. items as "off-palette"?  Create/store them in a non-player area, each with a different tag based on appearance and familiar level, then use the familiar summoning script to copy the desired item(s) to the familiar and get them equipped.

Good suggestion TAD. I haven't implemented that yet, but I think putting these in a store will work, and enable others to import the store via ERF and place in their module. Sound right to you? I could use help on that. I have done things like this in my module, but not experimented with distributing such a thing to other builders.

Also, regarding this palette overloading problem. If the item is in a hidden palette category, a category which DMs do not see, does it still cause the crash?


Also... Rolo, I saw your note on Owls. If you make an Owl I will definitely make use of it. I intend to get this all posted for this months CCC, of course. I'm thinking Owls and Falcons could be another type of familiar that a wizard or sorcerer can choose. I don't want Owls and Crows in the same group.

I've also been thinking more about the over all system. Now that I have introduced much more flexibility, it might be interesting in this release to make the limitation according to familiar grouping optional to the builder.

At present, I have a rodent group, a bat group, and a talking bird group. When a wizard binds a familiar they can only Bind Familiars that are within the group they chose for the "Familiar" ability. This is what I am thinking of making optional. Although in Arnheim I made the choice to stick with familiar groups, other builders may not like that choice. The downside to this is that incompatible voicesets, perception ranges, and movement rates could result. In this release however I could turn off the voiceset, and leave the other two to "default" and remove this problem. If I do this, there will be no real difference between familiar creature blueprints, and I could cut down on resources needed for this system considerably.

What do you think? Good idea? I'd like to hear the negatives as I am seriously considering this option.

[Rolo Kipp]

<holding up a finger...>

henesua wrote...
...
Also... Rolo, I saw your note on Owls. If you make an Owl I will definitely make use of it. I intend to get this all posted for this months CCC, of course. I'm thinking Owls and Falcons could be another type of familiar that a wizard or sorcerer can choose. I don't want Owls and Crows in the same group.

Falcons, yes. Plan on those also at some point (easy since they already have a model, but I don't think there's a decent skinmesh version...).

I like what you're thinking with the familiar groups, but I'd look at it in a diferent way - that the form the mage binds the spirit to puts the limitations/advantages on the familiar. This gives incentive for them to explore other appearances with different trade-offs for themselves. The drawback is the complication and difficulty (expense?) of re-binding your familiar. 

I.e. Bind a raven for speech and magic. Bind a falcon for sight and fierceness. Bind an owl for stealth and wisdom. Bind a parrot for speech & charisma.

But limit them to a certain family (bird, dog, cat, rodent) and give variety (with different bonus/penalties) *within* the family. Like choosing a spell school. They can be a generalist (default familiars) or a specialist who specializes in a certain family of familiars.

I've also been thinking more about the over all system. Now that I have introduced much more flexibility, it might be interesting in this release to make the limitation according to familiar grouping optional to the builder.

Making sub-systems optional is usually a nice touch :-) I'm all for it, on the builder side.

At present, I have a rodent group, a bat group, and a talking bird group. When a wizard binds a familiar they can only Bind Familiars that are within the group they chose for the "Familiar" ability. This is what I am thinking of making optional. Although in Arnheim I made the choice to stick with familiar groups, other builders may not like that choice. The downside to this is that incompatible voicesets, perception ranges, and movement rates could result. In this release however I could turn off the voiceset, and leave the other two to "default" and remove this problem. If I do this, there will be no real difference between familiar creature blueprints, and I could cut down on resources needed for this system considerably.

Personally, I'd rather have the "racial" or "family" bonuses/penalties tied to the forms (skins) of the appearance, with the "personal" bonus/penalties tied to the master (PCs skin). Voicesets, speed, perception etc. would be tied to whichever form the mage bound his familiar in, just like a polymorph spell.

So, a base appearance, a set of skins, and a set of properties to add to master's skin.
Counter-proposal (at least, if I understood you ;-)

<...and forgeting what he was going to say>

[henesua]

Rolo Kipp wrote...
Personally, I'd rather have the "racial" or "family" bonuses/penalties tied to the forms (skins) of the appearance, with the "personal" bonus/penalties tied to the master (PCs skin). Voicesets, speed, perception etc. would be tied to whichever form the mage bound his familiar in, just like a polymorph spell.

So, a base appearance, a set of skins, and a set of properties to add to master's skin.
Counter-proposal (at least, if I understood you ;-)

I'm not sure if we understand one another. As soon as I post the module for collaboration, you'll understand how this works, but I haven't made all of the familiar properties (skins) yet. So here is some explanation of the game effects to hold you over:

when a wizard summons a familiar, the wizard gains the benefits of the familiar as an effect. All familiars give the equivalent of the alertness feat to their master while they are summoned. Different kinds of familiars offer other kinds of special benefits to their master.  The kind of familiar is determined by its appearance rather than the category (rodent, bat, talking bird) to which it belongs, although each appearance in a category could provide the same benefit.

when a wizard unsummons a familiar the effects are removed.

The benefits are thus EFFECTS not properties added to a skin. And the effects are created by a spell so that they are easy to remove. Doing this via item properties was not worth it in my view.

Another thing to emphasize, the appearance of the familiar is the driver of the whole thing. I record the appearance of the familiar on the wizard/sorcerer, and when the familiar spawns it looks at the appearance it is supposed to have. It then initializes itself accordingly.

The appearance determines what it looks like, what special benefits the master receives, and what skin and bite it should be equipped with.

The skins are what I am working on right now. These skins are where I am customizing the creature's stats rather than modifying the blueprints of the creatures. So with ability bonuses I am adjusting abilities. Skill bonuses adjust skills. Bonus feats determine which feats the creature has. Same with spells if any.

Flying familiars for example are given the fly feat on their skin.

One hint that I am getting fro you in this case however is that rather than build all of the skins ahead of time, I could assign all of the item properties via script to the familiar's skin. I'm not sure I want to do that. While it would eliminate the need to create these creature skins, I feel that it leaves things to potential errors at runtime. Creating and copying items is a finnicky business. Also, it would require those that will be building their own familiars to work with scripts rather than create the skins in teh toolset.

Does anyone care? Would it be better from your perspective to mess with scripts rather than build 20 skins?

The question I asked earlier was relating to whether I should make the creature blueprints completely agnostic by setting the voiceset, movement speed and perception ranges in such a way that they would work for any creature. Then the skin that the creature is equipped with will determine its abilities. I am almost certainly going to handle it this way, unless I hear some very strong arguments against it.

Modifié par henesua, 07 janvier 2013 - 10:45 .

[henesua]

And I wanted to add another thing:

while I am only adding innocuous familiars as those that can be selected at level up (rodent, talking bird, bat), I really like the possibility of giving wizards and sorcerers the ability to bind much more interesting familiars through the course of play.

Bind Familiar need not be merely a means to change the look of your familiar from raven to parrot to seagull for example. Or if the builder opts to allow PCs to bind familiars outside of the category they could go from rat to bat to raven. But those are just the common animals that a wizard is likely to encounter not the limitations of what kind of familiar they can have. If a wizard locates an imp, and figures out how to make the Bind Familiar spell work on them, then they get an imp as a familiar when they target one.

The problem however is that when that imp dies, it isn't coming back. The wizard will need to find another one and persuade it to be their familiar. Or do whatever the builder decides are the right hoops to jump through to get a special familiar - and then cast Bind Familiar on the "canidate".

I'll be creating at least one special familiar - likely an Imp - to illustrate how builders can make them work in this system.

For me thats the coolest part of the whole thing. I really like the Bind Familiar spell. Its very simple. It takes the appearance of the creature targeted and determines whether it can be made into a familiar of the caster. If it can, it writes the appearance on the caster's skin, kills the targeted creature, and then summons them as a familiar. After I created this spell last year, I realized how much fun it would be for a wizard to hunt around in a PW for different kinds of familiars. And then since I made familiar hitpoints and death persistent, special familiars become even more precious.

Anyway... for me that is the nicest thing about what I am doing.

Modifié par henesua, 07 janvier 2013 - 11:03 .

[henesua]

OK Folks. I am open to suggestions with regards to the temporary benefits summoned familiars give to their masters. Consider the following and let me know what you think:

All familiars get the feats alertness, evasion and improved evasion. Every odd level they get +1 to AC and +1 intelligence. Spell resistance begins at level 11 at 16 SR. Each familiar also gets 3 skills which they can max out. I'm not going to list these now. I'm still working on them. But these skills will be typically a choice between Spot, Listen, Search, Hide and Move Silently.

Typical familiars have a strength of 3, and an attack which causes d2 damage. Flying familiars gain the feats: dodge, mobility and spring attack to emphasize their ability to stay out of harms way.

Starting Familiars:

• Bat - Self: flight, blindsight. (Lv11) Immunity to Fear . Master: no perks.
• Rat - Self: pass door, low light vision. (Lv11) Immunity to Disease. Master: +2 Hide, Move
• Raven - Self: flight, low light vision. Toughness. Taunt skill. Master:  +2 Bluff, Persuade.

Intermediate Familiars:

• Dire Rat - Self: Disease causing bite (d6 damage). Toughness. Low light vision. (Lv11) Immunity to Disease. Master: +2 Con
• Parrot - Self: flight, low light vision. Taunt skill  Master:  +1 Charisma
• Seagull - Self: flight, low light vision. Toughness. d6 bite.  Master: ?????????????
• Owl - Self: flight, dark vision, Toughness, d3 claw x2, d6 bite. Master: Darkvision
• Falcon - Self: flight, low light vision, Toughness, d3 claw x2, d6 bite. Master: +2 Spot, Listen (for a total of +4 to both)

Special Familiars:

• Imp - Self: poison tail and spell casting, but not certain on specifics. Master: Extra spells? Shift toward evil with each summon?

[Tarot Redhand]

It's just a thought, but isn't there a missing familiar type? Where would any self-respecting witch be without her feline familiar? So what happened to the missing moggy? Never mind the Rat, where's the Cat?

TR

[henesua]

Tarot Redhand wrote...

It's just a thought, but isn't there a missing familiar type? Where would any self-respecting witch be without her feline familiar? So what happened to the missing moggy? Never mind the Rat, where's the Cat?

TR

Indeed. There's no model in default NWN for a small cat. I do have small cat familiars in Arnheim, but pulled this off using Cervantes' siamese cat along with a few others. I'm not going to release their work with my package this month. Its not right to do so. As I wrote above however... if someone is interested in modelling a cat or a toad for the challenge I'll include those familiar types.

[Fester Pot]

Seagull - taunt or immunity from it, or some other feat that annoys players, like a seagull does at the beach when you're trying to eat your packed p&j sandwich!

FP!

[henesua]

The problem with giving the master resistance to taunt is that wizards and sorcerers likely already have maxed out concentration checks. But a familiar that provides a bonus to concentration would be a nice perk and I suppose that could go with a seagull. They do seem to have a single mindedness in how persistent they can be.

[Zwerkules]

henesua wrote...

• Dire Rat - Self: Disease causing bite (d6 damage). Toughness. Low light vision. (Lv11) Immunity to Disease. Master: +2 Con
• ...
• Falcon - Self: flight, low light vision, Toughness, d3 claw x2, d6 bite. Master: +2 Spot, Listen (for a total of +4 to both)

That seems a bit unbalanced to me. Why would I want a falcon who can give me a +2 Bonus for spot and listen if I can get a dire rat which will give me +2 to con and is immune to disease. The falcon might be a better fighter, but I wouldn't send a familiar into a fight anyway.

[henesua]

True. That is why I posted this. Nothing is settled yet, and I'm eager to hear suggestions. I'll be rethinking all of them in a bit as well.

However one thing that I have not posted are the skills that each familiar has. The skill differences can be used to balance things. Search is a very valuable skill in my opinion as familiars can help a wizard find hidden things. And ... well in this case the rats should all have search... so that doesn't work.

Another thing I could do is enable a summoned familiar to alert their master to an enemy that they perceive. An interesting idea that would give great benefit to the bat (blindsight) and any other familiar with high spot and listen.

[NWN_baba yaga]

to bad we cant have real flights in nwn because thats an advantage where the falcon true shines. In P&P flying creatures are just cool to use as scouts but here well anyway. The falcon looks and smells nice and the direrat is ugly and stinks

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 09 janvier 2013 - 06:38 .

[henesua]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

to bad we cant have real flights in nwn because thats an advantage where the falcon true shines. In P&P flying creatures are just cool to use as scouts but here well anyway. The falcon looks and smells nice and the direrat is ugly and stinks

The flying feat which I will be releasing as part of this makes up for that limitation to some extent. Being able to click on a location in the area and jump there enables a familiar to outmaneuver enemies, and to cross impassable terrain. I've been playing with this in Arnheim a great deal, and had fun exploring areas as a flying familiar. You can get to the tops of towers in the TNO tileset. You can cross impassable water and chasms and blocking palceables are not a problem either. The only limitation which poses some issues is that you can't fly to a place that you can't see.

I have considered creating a widget that would enable the familiar to fly to a memorized location, but that is well beyond the scope of this release. The reason for that is the complexity in figuring out if it is impossible to get from your current location to another. Still it would be cool if a sorcerer imprisoned in a tower on a distant island was able to summon and possess their familiar, fly out through the bars in the window and head home,  deliver a message to your allies then fly back. With a DM on it would be possible, or with a builder who scripted the possibility in that one instance, but I would still like to be able to set that up so that a player could do such a thing in any circumstance....