19 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Aeducan]

I was thinking what if Loghain helped Calian at The Battle of Ostagar. Would Loghain swallow his pride and allow Orlesian Reinforcments? Would they have won? Please leave your ideas below thanks.

[Monica21]

This thread is a terrible idea.

[Addai]

I think it would have been prelude to an Orlesian occupation. Celene wanted Ferelden, she was going about it the sweet way, but if that failed then she would use the route they did on Nevarran territory- come for the darkspawn, stay for the imperialism. There are hints about this in DA2 (not regarding Celene, but other Orlesian nobles) but the main reason I think this is that no one yet knew it was a Blight, but she was sending 12 divisions of chevaliers. That is a massive force.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 janvier 2013 - 06:15 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

12 divisions of chevaliers

Four legions actually, which would amount to -- assuming Roman legions are what we'd consider -- perhaps 20,000 men at most.

12 divisions would be anywhere from 120,000 to 360,000.

Or so wikipedia's definition of the terms division and legion says. Don't know if they're accurate. As a rule, I distrust Wikipedia unless it gives sources.

[Addai]

Riordan says they had 12 divisions with them. We don't know exactly how many men that is, but even a small number of knights on horseback is a formidable force.  20,000 heavy horse in a country that barely has any cavalry at all, and would have sustained some losses against the darkspawn...?

Modifié par Addai67, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:30 .

[TEWR]

Addai67 wrote...

Riordan says they had 12 divisions with them

Loghain says they were going to bring 4 legions of chevaliers.

Which means one thing to me: They said they were bringing in one number, but were really going to bring in a crapton more.

Meaning... goddamn that's a lot of might to be sending in.. And ****... Loghain was right in DAO beyond the whole Celene thing and what history showed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 janvier 2013 - 09:09 .

[ejoslin]

I don't think this question is realistic. No matter what, Cailan would have died. Loghain probably would have died as well. They were massively outnumbered and Cailan was killed at the same time the signal fire was lit.

[Monica21]

Lord Aeducan wrote...

I was thinking what if Loghain helped Calian at The Battle of Ostagar. Would Loghain swallow his pride and allow Orlesian Reinforcments? Would they have won? Please leave your ideas below thanks.

I'm not sure why the question is predicated on "helping" equaling "allowing Orlesian reinforcements." Helping Cailan can be done in any number of ways. Maybe most of all by simply shutting him in a tower with no windows and not letting him go to Ostagar.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Monica21 wrote...

Lord Aeducan wrote...

I was thinking what if Loghain helped Calian at The Battle of Ostagar. Would Loghain swallow his pride and allow Orlesian Reinforcments? Would they have won? Please leave your ideas below thanks.

I'm not sure why the question is predicated on "helping" equaling "allowing Orlesian reinforcements." Helping Cailan can be done in any number of ways. Maybe most of all by simply shutting him in a tower with no windows and not letting him go to Ostagar.

You are awesome.

[Monica21]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
You are awesome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cailan should have been removed from the picture a long time ago. Sadly Loghain is too sentimental and not pragmatic enough.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's going a bit far. All Loghain would really have needed to do was persuade Cailan that he sucks at thinking and should leave that to Loghain and Anora.

[TEWR]

He tried that. You can talk to one of the Kingsguard out in front of Cailan's tent who says Loghain called Cailan reckless.

Cailan laughed and shrugged it off.

Persuasion wasn't really going to work with Cailan. I approve of Monica21's method. Or Loghain should've slipped Cailan his poison that incapacitates people -- before or at Ostagar -- and then told some of his men to take the king back to/guard the king at Denerim so he'd be safe. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 janvier 2013 - 09:39 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then he should have started educating him in that reality from the cradle. He was brought up to be king for about that long anyway.

(Or if that's already what Loghain did, I guess the incapacitating poison. If Cailan's dumb enough not to see through that one.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 03 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[Wulfram]

If Loghain had conceded the case for Orlesian reinforcements, then he'd have had a better case for not fighting at Ostagar.

As it was, it's hard to see what his plan was. To fight a larger horde - the Darkspawn are recieving constant reinforcements - at a less defensible point? Getting Eamon's troops doesn't seem worth that, and would make the consequences of defeat even more dire.

[Addai]

His plan was to win at Ostagar. In the much-cited thread, Gaider said this, that he only had plans for withdrawing as a contingency, that wasn't his intent. The horde was much larger than any of them anticipated. He didn't have enough men on his own to confront them, so he had to fall back to Denerim to regroup. He expected the country to fall in quickly behind him.

Orlesian troops were not an option in his mind because he saw them as too great a risk. You don't invite in a fifth column unless you absolutely have to. At that point he still doesn't think it's a Blight, so he trusts in Ferelden to defend itself.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Then he should have started educating him in that reality from the cradle. He was brought up to be king for about that long anyway.

Well the problem is, Loghain knows **** about kings. I mean he praises Maric as a strong king and leader, when he's horrible. He thinks a king killing in a blind rage is a sign of strength and necessary ruthlessness, when it's a sign of weakness and madness.

Loghain would have been a horrible teacher. In fact I do believe that Loghain is at least partially responsible for Cailan being that way, probably due to his over-glorification of the idiot Maric that got into Cailan's head.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 janvier 2013 - 05:02 .

[Wulfram]

Whatever his plans in the actual battle, his preferred plan was not to fight now, but to wait for reinforcements.  Since the Darkspawn attack Ostagar, that means abandoning it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Whatever his plans in the actual battle, his preferred plan was not to fight now, but to wait for reinforcements.  Since the Darkspawn attack Ostagar, that means abandoning it.

Indeed, Loghain says were it up to him, he wouldn't fight the battle. Abandonning Ostagar means fighting the darkspawn on open ground, which would be disastrous esp since Ferelden seems to lack a cavalry.

The only way this can make sense to me, is that perhaps he hoped that by that time, he would have gotten assistance from Orzammar and the mages via Uldred, bolstering his forces and allowing him to counter-attack?
While he saw that darkspawn numbers increased, he thought it was an unusually large raid but small enough that it could become scattered on open fields and taken piece meal?

So essentially a strategic withdrawal to spread out their forces, get reinforcements and destroy them piece meal.

[gneisenau556]

Loghain tells Anora about a tactical retreat, Anora tells Cailan about a tactical retreat. Cailan, who seems to listen to Anora alot, orders a retreat ?