512 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

Also, it's not like ME3 is the "pinnacle" of gaming evolution and they're "above" having boss fights, rofl.

[someguy1231]

JBPBRC wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I don't think they should of used the words "too video gamey" because I actually agree with their mindset towards it. If it doesn't feel right to include it in their story (like Diana Allers, oh wait), then their would be no need to include it, but their is nothing wrong with boss fights because they can be done in varying ways, which can unique to the context of the story at hand.

This. Arkham City is a good example. 

There's the "Punch them to death" bosses, and on occasion there's the "If you try to punch them to death they will proceed to manhandle you" bosses. Mr. Freeze was always my favorite boss fight in that game, because of the latter.

Agreed. Mr. Freeze was one of the best boss fights I've ever seen, on par with The End and The Boss in MGS3.

In fact, anyone who thinks bossfights are "too videogamey" or should be phased out of video games needs to play through those games. I'd like to see them say that then.

[spirosz]

Also, we had a boss fight in ME3, Kai Leng, right? I think why a lot of us don't really consider it to be one is because he's not generally liked around here. The fight was interesting and it was really nice to look at, the whole "Illusive Man" iconic vibe with his area, but the character itself was a joke and I don't believe he should of survived past Thessia.

[dreamgazer]

Taking down the Reaper on Rannoch in a boss battle was enough "video-gamey"-ness for me. Too much, actually. Throwing in another one, especially the ridiculous TIM-Saren abomination that was the actual subject of said quote, would've been beyond overkill.

So yes, that boss fight would've felt too video-gamey in a piece of work that's already guilty of being enough of a game. Let's not ignore the context of the quote here, or the overarching piece of fiction---and its universe---taking place around this grand finale.

[ElSuperGecko]

spirosz wrote...
Also, we had a boss fight in ME3, Kai Leng, right? I think why a lot of us don't really consider it to be one is because he's not generally liked around here. The fight was interesting and it was really nice to look at, the whole "Illusive Man" iconic vibe with his area, but the character itself was a joke and I don't believe he should of survived past Thessia.

I don't think Kai Leng should have been in ME3 at all.  Plot armoured freak that came out of left field and added nothing to the story other than disbelief and laughter.

I would have much preferred a traitor from within your own squad someone you knew, trusted and had developed a relationship with becoming a double agent and an informant for the Illusive Man.

Whether it was EDI (either working for TIM all along or being taken over by a resurfacing EVA during the end of the Cronos Station mission), James (as a Cerberus sleeper agent), or an indoctrinated Virmire Survivor.  I thought Zaeed could have been perfect for the role, if we'd had him on the crew.

It would have been much more interesting to battle someone we knew, with unique powers that set them apart from the other Cerberus mooks.  Also, it would have made more sense from a story point of view, could have led to us either taking revenge and killing them, or talking them down and bringing them back into the fold.

But no, we got Space Ninja Raiden.

[spirosz]

dreamgazer wrote...

Taking down the Reaper on Rannoch in a boss battle was enough "video-gamey"-ness for me. Too much, actually. Throwing in another one, especially the ridiculous TIM-Saren abomination that was the actual subject of said quote, would've been beyond overkill.

So yes, that boss fight would've felt too video-gamey in a piece of work that's already guilty of being enough of a game. Let's not ignore the context of the quote here, or the overarching piece of fiction---and its universe---taking place around this grand finale.

You know, I actually enjoyed the ME3 Rannoch Reaper demo more than the Rannoch Reaper ME3 vanilla, it was different. When it gets hit by the missle and gets up, it makes that iconic "reaper scream" and Shepard's like "move, move!" or whatever and kept shooting, I was so excited to see that, but alas, we got Shepard being able to dodge Reaper beams.  I don't know how they would of executed it well enough to not be a "boss fight" though.  

Modifié par spirosz, 04 janvier 2013 - 04:29 .

[CronoDragoon]

I didn't want a boss fight, to be honest. By the time I got to the Beam I was emotionally spent and ready for it to move on to cutscenes.

However, I WOULD have wanted to destroy Harbinger somehow, even in cutscenes.

[Grubas]

spirosz wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Taking down the Reaper on Rannoch in a boss battle was enough "video-gamey"-ness for me. Too much, actually. Throwing in another one, especially the ridiculous TIM-Saren abomination that was the actual subject of said quote, would've been beyond overkill.

So yes, that boss fight would've felt too video-gamey in a piece of work that's already guilty of being enough of a game. Let's not ignore the context of the quote here, or the overarching piece of fiction---and its universe---taking place around this grand finale.

You know, I actually enjoyed the ME3 Rannoch Reaper demo more than the Rannoch Reaper ME3 vanilla, it was different. When it gets hit by the missle and gets up, it makes that iconic "reaper scream" and Shepard's like "move, move!" or whatever and kept shooting, I was so excited to see that, but alas, we got Shepard being able to dodge Reaper beams.  I don't know how they would of executed it well enough to not be a "boss fight" though.  

Maybe to use the damn tank, to dodge Reaper beams. That pointless tanksequence... gosh. In before someone defends even this part.

[ZLurps]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
And thats what we got with TIM. Anything else?

You're kidding, right?

TIM: You're too stupid to see my smartass plan!

Shepard: No, TIM. You are indoctrinated!

TIM: Le gasp! You're right! I can't live like most normal people! *Bang*

All done with the good ol' Paragon/Renegade options, which solves everything in the current situation in a rather anticlimactic fashion.

What else it should have been? Chess match, or Anderson, Shep and TIM sit down and settle things with a game of Trivial Pursuit?

I can sort of see what you mean though, but making leap towards Deus Ex: HR would have been very confusing to players at that point of game. That said, IMO TIM scene was too long already.

[ZLurps]

spirosz wrote...

VirginBlack wrote...

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding the quote and taking it out of context. It doesn't means that boss fights per se are too video gamey but rather that a particular boss fight (with the TIM near the end) would have felt forced, having a boss fight for the sake of having a boss fight instead of having it because it served the story (as was the case with the Reaper on Rannoch).

The quote clearly can't be taken as disdain for the video game medium from BioWare.

Then they should flat out say - "a boss fight would of been inappropriate for what we were trying to achieve."  I know that's what they did say, just with a different approach, but because of the way the ending was recieved, their PR and whatever else gets spewed out, there will be different reactions from individuals and I don't blame fans for taking certain things out of context.  I don't see why it would cause a problem if they flat out said what I wrote above because developers have said similar things like including MP in our game wouldn't work, so we cut it, but we're open to future possibilities, etc.  Again, if you look at it a certain way, you could think developers might be trying to make more money from fans... haha.  

Clear communication is key. 

I think lot of people are aware of context, they just use whatever they can.

Basically I don't even have a problem with that. For me it just is that IMO making TIM a bullet sponge wouldn't really solve a problem with lack of climax, which IMO stems from deeper issues in game.

[ZLurps]

Eryri wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

It also shows a lack of imagination, since a boss fight can be more than just shooting it until it's dead, as well as a great misunderstanding about who the true main boss of ME3 should have been.

Agreed. There are many innovative ways a boss fight with Harbinger might have played out.

One possibility is fighting inside Harbinger while having to break through swarms of collectors acting as his immune system, with a time limit to reach and destroy his core before indoctrination incapacitates Shepard.

Another one would be taking control of the Normandy and battling him in space, though Harbinger might have to be weakened first somehow to make that a realistic fight.

I wondered if that would happen in ME3 before it was released. Somehow I just don't see it working if it happens during Priority: Earth. Main target is on Citadel, so what's the point fighting Harby when Harby can't quite fit in Citadel tower. Disjointed boss fight for the sake of boss fight.

Having our war assets pester Harby might worked, giving some sort of reason why it didn't manage to kill Shepard with it's shot and why it didn't blew Normandy and co. straight to the hell when they were sitting right under it's nose and having a sensitive moment.

[liggy002]

A boss fight with Harbinger would not be contrived and forced. It was a long time coming... Kai Leng, on the other hand, was very contrived.

[ZLurps]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Yeah, that's just what we're wanting to do: be bummed out. What a bummer. You know what do we play video games for?

People play them for different reasons. Some people who are in positions where they are in power positions will have a different take on them. They may want the feeling of sacrifice in an RPG. Idealists also may want the feeling of sacrifice.

Some of us are stuck in offices or in crappy jobs 5 days a week. We learn quickly the way to survive in most jobs unless we had the luck of being born with a silver spoon in our mouths is to do just enough not to get fired. If you go that extra mile they never have enough money for the raise or they're cutting back that year and you don't get the promotion. And you get double or triple duty during the cutback so your performance suffers, and then when review time comes along they remember that so that when they do have the money they don't give it to you.

We play them to escape from the stuff in the paragraph above. We play for fun. We play RPGs for the adventure; for escaping from the crap; to be big goddamned heroes and heroines; we played Mass Effect to blow up reapers, kick them in the daddy bags, save the galaxy, and fly off into the sunset with our love interest smoking a cigar and wearing sunglasses. We didn't care if the ending would be too videogamey.

We didn't want to be forced to grab hold of two control rods, jump into a beam, or shoot a tube that was going to explode, all three of which end in our death, because that kind of crap is the stuff that kills us by degrees every day. Just not on that kind of grand scale, but sometimes sitting through a 4 hour meeting is like holding two control rods because you can feel your life disintegrating. Being in a two day team building session that is going to be a waste of time because it is going to be completely ignored by upper management in two days is like jumping in the green beam. Getting a new boss about 3/4 of the time is like shooting the tube and getting blown to bits. You follow me?

Yep, and I don't like the deliver either, but in context of this topic, how would boss fight, especially with BW's track record, help the ending? We would still be grapping those whatevers to grill ourselves, taking green acid bath or something else stupid.

[Grubas]

ZLurps wrote...

I think lot of people are aware of context, they just use whatever they can.

Basically I don't even have a problem with that. For me it just is that IMO making TIM a bullet sponge wouldn't really solve a problem with lack of climax, which IMO stems from deeper issues in game.

Does every Boss needs to be a bullet sponge? Please use some imagination...

Take this for example. TIM controls a group of Cerberus goons to stop you from reaching the console. Your only way to stop TIM is to fight yourself through a group of mobs and land the saving bullet to his head. If you aproach TIM closer and closer, TIM summons more reinforcements, so timing is crucial. 

Its a classic idea. 

There are more and better. 

I like when bioware admits that a feture they make is not optimal, but they should come up with another solution than just cutting it. Have more trust in trying something new.

Modifié par Grubas, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:10 .

[ZLurps]

liggy002 wrote...

A boss fight with Harbinger would not be contrived and forced. It was a long time coming... Kai Leng, on the other hand, was very contrived.

If Harbinger were been main antagonist. It's not, it's just another tool for Catalyst.

What comes to sending team inside of it. Well, they are not bound to be restricted with safe being of biological crew, so people would ask questions why it didn't just pulled few G's move and squished whoever was inside.

[Grubas]

ZLurps wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

A boss fight with Harbinger would not be contrived and forced. It was a long time coming... Kai Leng, on the other hand, was very contrived.

If Harbinger were been main antagonist. It's not, it's just another tool for Catalyst.

What comes to sending team inside of it. Well, they are not bound to be restricted with safe being of biological crew, so people would ask questions why it didn't just pulled few G's move and squished whoever was inside.

Would they? Or would they say wow that was an epic experience, to take Harbinger down. Its a game you know?

Modifié par Grubas, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:13 .

[ZLurps]

Grubas wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I think lot of people are aware of context, they just use whatever they can.

Basically I don't even have a problem with that. For me it just is that IMO making TIM a bullet sponge wouldn't really solve a problem with lack of climax, which IMO stems from deeper issues in game.

Does every Boss needs to be a bullet sponge? Please use some imagination...

Take this for example. TIM controls a group of Cerberus goons to stop you from reaching the console. Your only way to stop TIM is to fight yourself through a group of mobs and land the saving bullet to his head. If you aproach TIM closer and closer, TIM summons more reinforcements, so timing is crucial. 

Its a classic idea. 

There are more and better. 

Concerning the state of Shepard it's difficult to see how this would work, even with never ending bullets Shep have on Citadel level. We could of course give Cerberus mooks severe Stromtrooper syndrome so they can't really hit anything, but what's the point then really?

[ZLurps]

Grubas wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

liggy002 wrote...

A boss fight with Harbinger would not be contrived and forced. It was a long time coming... Kai Leng, on the other hand, was very contrived.

If Harbinger were been main antagonist. It's not, it's just another tool for Catalyst.

What comes to sending team inside of it. Well, they are not bound to be restricted with safe being of biological crew, so people would ask questions why it didn't just pulled few G's move and squished whoever was inside.

Would they? Or would they say wow that was an epic experience, to take Harbinger down. Its a game you know?

About everything gets speculated to death and then resurrect to be speculated to death again on these forums, believe me, I have experience.

[Bad King]

Liamv2 wrote...

Boss fights are always bad i don't know why people want them. It is the best thing ME3 did

They're preferable to waves of generic enemies that we've already fought countless times. Boss fights add suspense and excitement to the conclusion of an act when done properly and they challenge the player in new ways.

[Grubas]

ZLurps wrote...

About everything gets speculated to death and then resurrect to be speculated to death again on these forums, believe me, I have experience.

I believe you. but there i would rather laugh about insane MAKO controls, than cry over removing the MAKO physics, and the MAKO levels, MAKO related mobs (geth armatures) and the MAKO himself.

And as i said its just an example. What we have now, is Saren 2.0. It was inovativ 5 years ago. 

Modifié par Grubas, 04 janvier 2013 - 06:28 .

[ZLurps]

Grubas wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

About everything gets speculated to death and then resurrect to be speculated to death again on these forums, believe me, I have experience.

I believe you. but there i would rather laugh about insane MAKO controls, than cry over removing the MAKO physics, and the MAKO levels, MAKO related mobs (geth armatures) and the MAKO himself.

And as i said its just an example. What we have now, is Saren 2.0. It was inovativ 5 years ago. 

There were ways to solve things without fighting in games during era before 3D. ME1 made it all very movie like and there was Paragon / Renegade system, that's about it, but it still felt fresh at the time, at least partially because so many other titles aimed for very streamlined action.

I still like my idea about revamping Priority: Earth better than boss fight.

[liggy002]

OP... change the title of the thread to "boss fights are not too videogamey." HAHA.

[Iakus]

ME3's ending had so very very many things wrong with it. But lack of a boss fight isn't necessarilly one of them.

Boss fight can be done well, or can be too, well "gimmicky" for lack of a better word

"Shoot the weak spots!"
"Don't stand in the fire!"
"Air phase!"
"Ground phase!"
"Stop attacking!"
"Now spin around in a circle and shoot the ceiling!"


A well-done boss fight would have been great. A poorly done boss fight would have made an already terrible ending even worse (if that's possible)

[XxDarkTimexX]

what bioware should have done instead of rushing is postphone the game to summer 2012, fall of 2012, or 2013, or end the game at a certain point. The line saying boss fights are too video gamey is saying i hate video games but the thing i love about dark souls and demon souls is because of the bosses, dragon age orgins has good boss fights, Dragon age 2, KOTOR, SWTOR, etc. Bioware can do really good boss fights but with a rushed game made the game fail though it's still good but the story is bad. Bioware your great company but don't rush a game or story because otherwise you end up like other companies who rushed to much and didn't care about what they were making.

[XxDarkTimexX]

also a lot of fans hate IT just because they think it will make the game worse but if done right even the worst ideas can have great story. For example King kong (1933 movie or 2005 movie) is a great story but if people heard about it before the movie, people will hate it but since it was done right its one of the best movies in human history. I'm not saying its the best but use different ideas for the story ending instead of rushing it. Stories can't be rushed other wise its crap.