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[thepimpto]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

You already fought a mutated thrall as the final boss in ME1. Saren. Rehashing it with the Illusive Man is pointless.

You already fought an actual Reaper in ME2. And three times in ME3.

ME3's final boss, the Illusive Man, is original. You fight with your wits instead of your weapons.

So I say. Get over it.

TIM and Saren play the exact same character role in their repective games. Rehash. Dialogue confrontations at endgame for both. Rehash. If you can't talk them into shooting themselves, you must shoot them. Rehash. TIm is not original, he is a rehash of Saren except played by Martin Sheen in ME3.

[Twilight_Princess]

And beating him with your wits didn't really mean anything because it turns out he was right all along. Saren's final conversation at least had a point. He was deluded, he lost control and most important of all he was WRONG. Shep didn't invalidate her argument by saying "Saren was right" minutes after making him shoot himself.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 05 janvier 2013 - 02:26 .

[JyrikGauldy]

ya its not like half the game is combat, and theres a separate multiplayer mode... this post is ridiculous

[liggy002]

I hate to break it to you anti boss battle people... but everyone time you fight a Banshee or a Ravager, or a Brute - it's pretty equivalent to a boss battle.

[Thaa_solon]

The journal was a boss battle itself.....

*crawls back into murky waters of the intraweb*

[KiwiQuiche]

Bioware screwed up majorly with ME3 because they couldn't decided between a RPG, a movie or a shooter and we got some ugly mis-mashed crap as a result.

[MegaSovereign]

thepimpto wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

You already fought a mutated thrall as the final boss in ME1. Saren. Rehashing it with the Illusive Man is pointless.

You already fought an actual Reaper in ME2. And three times in ME3.

ME3's final boss, the Illusive Man, is original. You fight with your wits instead of your weapons.

So I say. Get over it.

TIM and Saren play the exact same character role in their repective games. Rehash. Dialogue confrontations at endgame for both. Rehash. If you can't talk them into shooting themselves, you must shoot them. Rehash. TIm is not original, he is a rehash of Saren except played by Martin Sheen in ME3.

Dear God I nearly had an aneurysm.

No, TIM is not Saren. Saren submitted to the Reaper agenda. TIM was a third party who wanted to defeat the Reapers on his own terms as well as take advantage of what Reapers have to offer in order to bring humanity to its apex. The confrontation scenes in ME1 and ME3 have many similarities, but TIM and Saren do not play the same role.

I don't even care about the topic at hand. People claiming that TIM is Saren 2.0 or that his character changed direction from ME2 to ME3 clearly do not have a strong understanding of the ME lore or TIM's character. And frankly, I'm sick of it.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:19 .

[Ghost]

liggy002 wrote...

I hate to break it to you anti boss battle people... but everyone time you fight a Banshee or a Ravager, or a Brute - it's pretty equivalent to a boss battle.

Not really. A higher class Reaper soldier.

[rapscallioness]

I don't think I would have wanted to see the reaper tim. No. But they didn't replace it with anything interesting. The final confrontation w/TIM was dull. He ranted for while and I shot him.

It wasn't challenging. No wits required.

If you're not going to have a final boss in a physical, combative way, then give me some kind of challenge. Intellectually. Even map..or navigation wise.

I could see TIM being the minor boss w/Star kid being the real final "boss". But neither confrontation was actually a challenge. In any way.

[Grubas]

@Megasovereign
Then why not give TIM a confrontation that is unique/ challenging? Why give him the Saren treatment. They even wanted to make him a Reaperhusk, probably after you talk him to shoot himself. Martin Sheen deserved original content.

Modifié par Grubas, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:59 .

[MegaSovereign]

Grubas wrote...

@Megasovereign
Then why not give TIM a confrontation that is unique/ challenging? Why give him the Saren treatment. They even wanted to make him a Reaperhusk, probably after you talk him to shoot himself. Martin Sheen deserved original content.

Thematically the TIM confrontation is very important. Yes, TIM became indoctrinated. His own ambition led him to his downfall. He lost sight of his original goal of protecting humanity. That's the point of his character. How he became indoctrinated is the ultimate payoff to his character.

Bioware did not want or care to make the TIM confrontation "challenging." The irony of these complaints is astounding. On one hand Bioware is accused of trying to pander to the COD/Gears of War crowd with ME3, on the other Bioware is criticized for not having a COD/Gears-like boss fight at the end of the game.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 05 janvier 2013 - 06:15 .

[CoolioThane]

TIM-Control
Saren-Synthesis

That's the difference. Both choices are bad but different, so ME1/ME3 are slightly different.

[rapscallioness]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Grubas wrote...

@Megasovereign
Then why not give TIM a confrontation that is unique/ challenging? Why give him the Saren treatment. They even wanted to make him a Reaperhusk, probably after you talk him to shoot himself. Martin Sheen deserved original content.

Thematically the TIM confrontation is very important. Yes, TIM became indoctrinated. His own ambition led him to his downfall. He lost sight of his original goal of protecting humanity. That's the point of his character. How he became indoctrinated is the ultimate payoff to his character.

Bioware did not want or care to make the TIM confrontation "challenging."

Well, then they succeeded.

But we already knew all that other stuff. That was a lame "ultimate pay off" to his character.

[thepimpto]

MegaSovereign wrote...

thepimpto wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

You already fought a mutated thrall as the final boss in ME1. Saren. Rehashing it with the Illusive Man is pointless.

You already fought an actual Reaper in ME2. And three times in ME3.

ME3's final boss, the Illusive Man, is original. You fight with your wits instead of your weapons.

So I say. Get over it.

TIM and Saren play the exact same character role in their repective games. Rehash. Dialogue confrontations at endgame for both. Rehash. If you can't talk them into shooting themselves, you must shoot them. Rehash. TIm is not original, he is a rehash of Saren except played by Martin Sheen in ME3.

Dear God I nearly had an aneurysm.

No, TIM is not Saren. Saren submitted to the Reaper agenda. TIM was a third party who wanted to defeat the Reapers on his own terms as well as take advantage of what Reapers have to offer in order to bring humanity to its apex. The confrontation scenes in ME1 and ME3 have many similarities, but TIM and Saren do not play the same role.

I don't even care about the topic at hand. People claiming that TIM is Saren 2.0 or that his character changed direction from ME2 to ME3 clearly do not have a strong understanding of the ME lore or TIM's character. And frankly, I'm sick of it.

Saren wanted organics to be tools of the Reapers while in fact he was already a tool of the Reapers.
Saren had a research base studying Indoctriantion. Same base used to create an army.
Saren got data from the Eden Prime beacon tried to destroy it
Saren interaction after Prothean beacon interaction on Virmire
Saren verbal interaction on Citadel at plot important control panel
 
TIM wanted humans to use the Reapers as tools while in fact he was already a tool of the Reapers.
TIM had a research base studying Indoctrination. Same base used to create an army
TIM got data from Mars Archives tried to destroy it
TIM interaction after Prothean beacon interaction on Thessia
TIM verbal interaction on Citadel at plot important control panel

Both are arguing for the survival of the Reapers via appeasement or domination. Regardless of rhetoric they were both indoctrinated Reaper pawns 

ME2 TIM calls the Reapers "the real enemy"
ME3 TIM says "Reapers aren't the enemy they are tools" 
I'd call that a shift in character, if you can't see past his Humanity Dogma

[MegaSovereign]

rapscallioness wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Grubas wrote...

@Megasovereign
Then why not give TIM a confrontation that is unique/ challenging? Why give him the Saren treatment. They even wanted to make him a Reaperhusk, probably after you talk him to shoot himself. Martin Sheen deserved original content.

Thematically the TIM confrontation is very important. Yes, TIM became indoctrinated. His own ambition led him to his downfall. He lost sight of his original goal of protecting humanity. That's the point of his character. How he became indoctrinated is the ultimate payoff to his character.

Bioware did not want or care to make the TIM confrontation "challenging."

Well, then they succeeded.

But we already knew all that other stuff. That was a lame "ultimate pay off" to his character.

Please tell me how a boss fight would have made a positive impact on TIM's character conclusion.

[Grubas]

On its own TIMs confrontation works rather well, but it has the malus that is the only final confrontation of this sort. As such it has the function of channeling all the expectations priority: earth couldnt keep. What was supposed a be satisfying conclusion to TIMs subplot, has now the burden to act as the conclusion of the entire trilogy.
The ending is a downer and TIM is the very last straw to save it.

[Mendelevosa]

I don't see how people believe the final confrontation between Shepard and TIM was a spectacular battle of words. The whole scene went like this:

TIM: SHEPARD! We must CONTROL the Reapers!!!!

Shepard: YOU. ARE. AN. INDOCTRINATED.

TIM: Oh my god, you are right! *commits suicide*

And the little star-****** was even worse as he handed victory to Shepard for simply being on the Crucible controls and then told Shepard exactly how to get the outcome he/she wants. Bioware could have found a a way to make a memorable and breathtaking final confrontation without making it ridiculous or unbelievable. Though instead of working their imaginations, they decide not to try and take the easy way out.

Seems like when Bioware is told how certain parts of their games are lackluster, instead of fixing the problems, the developers decide: "Nyah screw this let's take this feature out!" Going back on how the inventory system was frustrating and tedious, Bioware decides to remove the whole system instead of finding a way to improve upon it. When people complained about how the exploration in ME1 could have used some improving, Bioware tried to make things work by introducing the Hammerhead. When people had complaints about that as well, Bioware rejects the exploration element in ME3.

In terms of the boss fights, the company received criticism on how atrocious the boss fights were handled in the first two games. Seems like the company would find a way to improve upon that right?
WRONG! They don't provide any type of appealing final confrontation and reduces the battle that is there to a minute long short sentence battle that ends too easily. And the celestial brat does not even try to engage in a meaningful argument as his mind about how the Reapers should function just immediately changes just because he saw Shepard in the Crucible.

And this whole "too-videogamey" quote is highly ironic seeing how Bioware throws Kai Lame and the Rannoch Reaper nonsense at people anyway.

[MegaSovereign]

thepimpto wrote...
Saren wanted organics to be tools of the Reapers while in fact he was already a tool of the Reapers.
TIM wanted humans to use the Reapers as tools while in fact he was already a tool of the Reapers.

How is this a similarity? Saren wanted to serve the Reapers. TIM wanted to defeat the Reapers by subjugating them.

Saren had a research base studying Indoctriantion. Same base used to create an army.
TIM had a research base studying Indoctrination. Same base used to create an army

Saren's indoctrination research was about finding ways to mitigate its effects. The army he was creating had little to do with indoctrination. And it was a Krogan army.

TIM's research was about finding a way to use indoctrination against the Reapers. He was trying to use the Reapers' best tactic against them. And he was actually making progress hence why the Reapers attacked the facility.

Saren got data from the Eden Prime beacon tried to destroy it
TIM got data from Mars Archives tried to destroy it

TIM didn't want the Alliance to get their hands on the Crucible blueprints. However, TIM still saw the data as vital to his agenda. Again, he wanted to defeated the Reapers. That alone makes him worlds apart from Saren.

TIM interaction after Prothean beacon interaction on Thessia
Saren interaction after Prothean beacon interaction on Virmire

Saren verbal interaction on Citadel at plot important control panel
TIM verbal interaction on Citadel at plot important control panel

These are just stupid. Their interactions are nothing alike. ME1 and ME3 have a similar plot structure. Narratively the Catalyst from ME3 and the Conduit from ME1 have similarities in the way they are presented/revealed at the end but that doesn't mean the two concepts are the same. (To elaborate, I'm talking about how we didn't know much about the Conduit/Catalyst and how we spend the entire game trying to find what and where they are)

Both are arguing for the survival of the Reapers via appeasement or domination. Regardless of rhetoric they were both indoctrinated Reaper pawns

Dominating the Reapers is defeating them. We see that by the end of the game the Control option is viable. I'm more of a Destroyer myself but let's not delude facts here. The only one using rhetoric to mask their flawed argument is you I'm afraid. Subjugating the Reapers and being subjugated by them are as different as night and day.

ME2 TIM calls the Reapers "the real enemy"
ME3 TIM says "Reapers aren't the enemy they are tools" 
I'd call that a shift in character, if you can't see past his Humanity Dogma

That's not even a direct quote. He explicitly says multiple times that the Reapers are the enemy. He even adds in a line on Thessia when Shepard questions his methods.

Something to the effect of: "You think just because I'm using the enemies' tactics that they are no longer my enemy? No. My methods are simply more refined than yours."

TIM has always had a "the ends justify the means" angle. And if you save the Collector base in ME2, his entire end game speech is about how he wants to use the base and Reaper technology to advance humanity's agenda.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 05 janvier 2013 - 06:56 .

[lynch108]

Lots of great movies/books/stories have boss fights. I don't know what BW was talking about. Darth Vader, Voldemort, Hans Gruber (sorry, i love me some die hard). A genre like this in particular would have something akin to a boss fight in most cases.

[Grubas]

So as i said TIMs dialog is the only climax we get. And its to little.

[MegaSovereign]

Grubas wrote...

So as i said TIMs dialog is the only climax we get. And its to little.

The Catalyst confrontation scene is what made the ending anti-climatic. Not TIM's character arc conclusion. Personally, I'm not against a Reaper boss battle. I just don't think one with TIM would have been a good idea.

TIM's confrontation and Anderson's last scene were brilliantly executed IMO. The Catalyst scene...not so much. It's almost as if the lead writer was sober while working on everything before the decision chamber scene, and then hammered afterwards.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 05 janvier 2013 - 07:52 .

[Grubas]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Grubas wrote...

So as i said TIMs dialog is the only climax we get. And its to little.

The Catalyst confrontation scene is what made the ending anti-climatic. Not TIM's character arc conclusion. Personally, I'm not against a Reaper boss battle. I just don't think one with TIM would have been a good idea.

TIM's confrontation and Anderson's last scene were brilliantly executed IMO. The Catalyst scene...not so much. It's almost as if the lead writer was sober while working on everything before the decision chamber scene, and then hammered afterwards.

Thats why its included in MEHEM, because its overall a good part on its own. The Catalyst literally declares you a winner the moment he opens his mouth. And im like, what? I didnt do much. It was all cutscenes and Harbinger missing his shoot. I did nothing to deserve to be here.   

And then i shoot TIM and the Reapers give up? What kind of game, story is that? Where is the challenge? 

[Lhawke]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think a particular boss fight with TIM as a big monstrosity would have been too videogamey and wouldn't have made sense in keeping with the character. Here is what they could have done. Cronos -- no fight with Kai Leng. To the Beam: no blast from Harbinger takes out Shepard, but Shepard gets up there alone. Here's where Shepard takes on Kai Leng (and he's tough) in a full blown boss fight one on one. Larger area, you defeat Kai Leng, then you have your conversation with TIM who has Anderson, then you open the arms, Anderson dies, the crucible docks, you get picked up, the crucible fires. You're done. This would be in keeping with TIM. TIM has others do his dirty work.

How complete the Crucible is determines how much collateral damage is done.

However, the red, green, and blue ending was too much of a facepalm and a WTF, and depressing note on which to end the game. You get up to the end of the game. This kid says "Okay you win, but you have to die. Choose how you want to die, and choose what state you want to leave the galaxy, oh and no matter what you choose it's going to suck." -- March 2012.

Nice. Real nice. Five years I waited... for that? That is called the FY ending.

I would have liked an ending like this. I would have continued to buy collectors editions as well.

There was nothing intelligent about the encounter with tim, just follow the dialogue and hit the interrupt that ends the confrontation.  And then more dialogue and choose the colour that ends the game.

Boss fights can be fun and challenging they just need to be realistic and not terminators suddenly springing to life.

[zsom]

Saying that a game needs a boss fight is wrong. Spec Ops The Line had no boss fight, TW2 had an optional boss fight, PS:T had an optional boss fight where the good ending was actually the one where you didn't fight, yet neither of them is less of a game than Baldur's Gate...
Actually most great games had optional or no boss fights at the end. Having a compulsory boss fight usually means the enemy is a flat cliche villain with no personality.

Edit: typo

Modifié par zsom, 05 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[In Exile]

[quote]Grubas wrote...

@Megasovereign
Then why not give TIM a confrontation that is unique/ challenging? Why give him the Saren treatment. They even wanted to make him a Reaperhusk, probably after you talk him to shoot himself. Martin Sheen deserved original content.[/quote

I actually thought it was working towards a pretty good parallel there, where Shepard's last moments are a repeat of his most heroic, when he takes down Saren and stops Sovereign. But then the Catalyst happened.