512 réponses à ce sujet

[Grubas]

In Exile wrote...

Grubas wrote...

@Megasovereign
Then why not give TIM a confrontation that is unique/ challenging? Why give him the Saren treatment. They even wanted to make him a Reaperhusk, probably after you talk him to shoot himself. Martin Sheen deserved original content.

I actually thought it was working towards a pretty good parallel there, where Shepard's last moments are a repeat of his most heroic, when he takes down Saren and stops Sovereign. But then the Catalyst happened.

Back then you had your squadmates to aid you. Now they rather abandon you, and flee with the normandy.
I mean your whole team was on earth, aiding Hammer Team, and then they get picked up one by one, offscreen, by the normandy, while Shepard crawls to his death- if the Catalyst wouldn't surrender on his own...



 

Modifié par Grubas, 05 janvier 2013 - 10:23 .

[Someone With Mass]

MegaSovereign wrote...
Please tell me how a boss fight would have made a positive impact on TIM's character conclusion.

It wouldn't. 

A boss battle with the Reaper who's been around since ME2, however, would at least have a small positive impact on his character conclusion and be a more fitting confrontation than the one with TIM.

Mostly because Harbinger doesn't do much else in this game. He just shows up during the last mission.

It certainly would be more interesting than anything Cerberus had to offer during the game.

[ZLurps]

Someone With Mass wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
Please tell me how a boss fight would have made a positive impact on TIM's character conclusion.

It wouldn't. 

A boss battle with the Reaper who's been around since ME2, however, would at least have a small positive impact on his character conclusion and be a more fitting confrontation than the one with TIM.

Mostly because Harbinger doesn't do much else in this game. He just shows up during the last mission.

It certainly would be more interesting than anything Cerberus had to offer during the game.

This is much along the line what I have been trying to say. Having boss fight with TIM wouldn't solve anything. We get so much Cerberus in the game that even having TIM on Citadel, no matter how dramatic it's supposed to be, feels just tired.

But let's leave TIM alone right now and let's revamp Priority: Earth.

One way to approach this boss fight thing is to analyse horde mode fight where we finally eliminate Reaper destroyer with Thanix missiles(?!) or whatever.

What works in it, what doesn't work in it, and why?

[Someone With Mass]

ZLurps wrote...

What works in it, what doesn't work in it, and why?

I'd say that it keeping the pressure on the player works, since it'd be rather anticlimactic if you could easily get away with it.

What doesn't work is the fact that it's nothing more than a horde wave. There's nothing special about it and there's little to no interaction with the missile truck, except pushing a button to win.

[ZLurps]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

What works in it, what doesn't work in it, and why?

I'd say that it keeping the pressure on the player works, since it'd be rather anticlimactic if you could easily get away with it.

What doesn't work is the fact that it's nothing more than a horde wave. There's nothing special about it and there's little to no interaction with the missile truck, except pushing a button to win.

Yep, then we are just too alone. There aren't even visuals like we see on Palaven to give us sense of the scale of war.

Have fighter squadron trying to slow Reaper down, have us hear artillery trying to slow it down, show it too. Give us reason why Reaper just doesn't blow those missile platforms to hell. Have some squad trying to come to our help, only to be shot to pieces. As it's now, we have cut scene and is little radio chatter which just doesn't cut it.

If we get back to Thessia, where we have sort of boss fight sequnce against Reaper ground forces supported by two Harvesters, it IMO works so well because of visuals and because we also have support from Asari gunships. Atmosphere of huge conflict and tragedy is there.


What comes to missile battery. I guess one way to do it could be making it interactive. Making it guided missile where we need to paint the target but there's other problem.

In addition to problems above, I think this battle get critisised a lot because it feels unsatisfying. Why? Because even we like to believe we achieved something, we are out of our immersion. It took several hits from Quarian fleet to take down one from Rannoch. Even that fight gets some critique because after orbital bombing there shouldn't be but a crater where Shepard was. Somehow most of us can ignore that, because rest of it so good that we can and want to do that.

In comparison to that, destroying the Reaper on Earth with a missile just feels lame. If we had missile battery there, something we might even able to see from the distance and we were covering targeting system, because they lost their radar or whatever when one Harvester got trough fighter and AA cover. Keep us in the scene also after that Reaper is destroyed, let's hear some cheering from the radio or something. We would get IMO much more plausible scenario.

Just gimmicks, well maybe. But many things on games works on how people perceive them. I read interview about beta testing Max Payne 2 and how devs got feedback that some assault rifle in game just felt like it's a pea shooter and it takes forever to take enemies down with it.
Devs checked the code and weapon was working as intended. Instead of changing accuracy, rate of fire or damange, they changed its sound effects. They made sound bit louder and boosted lower frequencies. Feedback from beta testers was very positive after that. Yeah, it's so much more efficient now. There is much more punch and enemies go down in seconds now!
All that was really changed was sound effect.

Same way boss fights, they don't need to be anything totally ridiculous to give us sense of victory and satisfaction. Would Reaper fight in it's core be much like it is now even if we added stuff I mentioned above? Well, yes.
Would it felt more like we actually achieved something. Well, I dare to say, yes it would very likely feel more satisfying.


EDIT: Level design is IMO basically pretty good. It looks plausible, there is enough room to manouver for us and enemies and entry points for enemies, especially one where Reaper troops come to the area from left side (looking behind of trucks) is IMO very well done.

Modifié par ZLurps, 05 janvier 2013 - 05:24 .

[AlanC9]

ZLurps wrote...
Just gimmicks, well maybe. But many things on games works on how people perceive them. I read interview about beta testing Max Payne 2 and how devs got feedback that some assault rifle in game just felt like it's a pea shooter and it takes forever to take enemies down with it.
Devs checked the code and weapon was working as intended. Instead of changing accuracy, rate of fire or damange, they changed its sound effects. They made sound bit louder and boosted lower frequencies. Feedback from beta testers was very positive after that. Yeah, it's so much more efficient now. There is much more punch and enemies go down in seconds now!
All that was really changed was sound effect.

Same way boss fights, they don't need to be anything totally ridiculous to give us sense of victory and satisfaction. Would Reaper fight in it's core be much like it is now even if we added stuff I mentioned above? Well, yes.
Would it felt more like we actually achieved something. Well, I dare to say, yes it would very likely feel more satisfying.

Note that this is the sort of thing that probably only comes out in the beta. Anyone more involved in the project isn't likely to be subject to such illusions by the time you've reached that stage.

You also need the right testers. I'd never find this sort of problem with a boss fight since I don't particularly like boss fights in the first place.

[ZLurps]

AlanC9 wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Just gimmicks, well maybe. But many things on games works on how people perceive them. I read interview about beta testing Max Payne 2 and how devs got feedback that some assault rifle in game just felt like it's a pea shooter and it takes forever to take enemies down with it.
Devs checked the code and weapon was working as intended. Instead of changing accuracy, rate of fire or damange, they changed its sound effects. They made sound bit louder and boosted lower frequencies. Feedback from beta testers was very positive after that. Yeah, it's so much more efficient now. There is much more punch and enemies go down in seconds now!
All that was really changed was sound effect.

Same way boss fights, they don't need to be anything totally ridiculous to give us sense of victory and satisfaction. Would Reaper fight in it's core be much like it is now even if we added stuff I mentioned above? Well, yes.
Would it felt more like we actually achieved something. Well, I dare to say, yes it would very likely feel more satisfying.

Note that this is the sort of thing that probably only comes out in the beta. Anyone more involved in the project isn't likely to be subject to such illusions by the time you've reached that stage.

You also need the right testers. I'd never find this sort of problem with a boss fight since I don't particularly like boss fights in the first place.

Not sure what you are trying to say. Priority: Earth is something put together very fast and they just didn't had time to polish it. No matter how many beta testers there might have been, it's all irrelevant when you need to ship, no matter what.

I'm not a fan of boss fights per se, but if you think of what happened in Thessia, not Kai Leng stuff, but scene where there are Reaper ground forces and two Harvesters, did that felt like boss fight to you?

[Arisugawa]

ZLurps wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Just gimmicks, well maybe. But many things on games works on how people perceive them. I read interview about beta testing Max Payne 2 and how devs got feedback that some assault rifle in game just felt like it's a pea shooter and it takes forever to take enemies down with it.
Devs checked the code and weapon was working as intended. Instead of changing accuracy, rate of fire or damange, they changed its sound effects. They made sound bit louder and boosted lower frequencies. Feedback from beta testers was very positive after that. Yeah, it's so much more efficient now. There is much more punch and enemies go down in seconds now!
All that was really changed was sound effect.

Same way boss fights, they don't need to be anything totally ridiculous to give us sense of victory and satisfaction. Would Reaper fight in it's core be much like it is now even if we added stuff I mentioned above? Well, yes.
Would it felt more like we actually achieved something. Well, I dare to say, yes it would very likely feel more satisfying.

Note that this is the sort of thing that probably only comes out in the beta. Anyone more involved in the project isn't likely to be subject to such illusions by the time you've reached that stage.

You also need the right testers. I'd never find this sort of problem with a boss fight since I don't particularly like boss fights in the first place.

Not sure what you are trying to say. Priority: Earth is something put together very fast and they just didn't had time to polish it. No matter how many beta testers there might have been, it's all irrelevant when you need to ship, no matter what.

I'm not a fan of boss fights per se, but if you think of what happened in Thessia, not Kai Leng stuff, but scene where there are Reaper ground forces and two Harvesters, did that felt like boss fight to you?

Holding the missile truck position on Priority Earth II felt like a boss fight to me. Especially after Shepard wearily declares, "We can DO this!" Absolutely, it felt like a boss fight, minus the gimmicky stuff that boss fights tend to have.

[Rex Fallout]

Lazengan wrote...

Snip

I almost agreed with you until you mentioned Uncharted as an Example.  Uncharted is definately a game.  I love the gameplay, boss fights and story.  It all works well together.  Could it be made into a movie?  Sure.  But it has more than enough to qualify as a game.

[ZLurps]

Arisugawa wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Just gimmicks, well maybe. But many things on games works on how people perceive them. I read interview about beta testing Max Payne 2 and how devs got feedback that some assault rifle in game just felt like it's a pea shooter and it takes forever to take enemies down with it.
Devs checked the code and weapon was working as intended. Instead of changing accuracy, rate of fire or damange, they changed its sound effects. They made sound bit louder and boosted lower frequencies. Feedback from beta testers was very positive after that. Yeah, it's so much more efficient now. There is much more punch and enemies go down in seconds now!
All that was really changed was sound effect.

Same way boss fights, they don't need to be anything totally ridiculous to give us sense of victory and satisfaction. Would Reaper fight in it's core be much like it is now even if we added stuff I mentioned above? Well, yes.
Would it felt more like we actually achieved something. Well, I dare to say, yes it would very likely feel more satisfying.

Note that this is the sort of thing that probably only comes out in the beta. Anyone more involved in the project isn't likely to be subject to such illusions by the time you've reached that stage.

You also need the right testers. I'd never find this sort of problem with a boss fight since I don't particularly like boss fights in the first place.

Not sure what you are trying to say. Priority: Earth is something put together very fast and they just didn't had time to polish it. No matter how many beta testers there might have been, it's all irrelevant when you need to ship, no matter what.

I'm not a fan of boss fights per se, but if you think of what happened in Thessia, not Kai Leng stuff, but scene where there are Reaper ground forces and two Harvesters, did that felt like boss fight to you?

Holding the missile truck position on Priority Earth II felt like a boss fight to me. Especially after Shepard wearily declares, "We can DO this!" Absolutely, it felt like a boss fight, minus the gimmicky stuff that boss fights tend to have.

Cookies for you. That's one thing I was trying to point out. It takes us out of immersion and doesn't fulfill it's reward potential because it's "too video gamey".
 

That's why I wished people would compare against battle sequence on Thessia with two Harvesters, I haven't seen anyone complaining about it. It isn't even really a boss fight in arcade sense, just couple of tougher enemies among other Reaper troops, yet it fulfills boss fight role very well IMO.

[AlanC9]

ZLurps wrote...

Not sure what you are trying to say. Priority: Earth is something put together very fast and they just didn't had time to polish it. No matter how many beta testers there might have been, it's all irrelevant when you need to ship, no matter what.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking too. Even if the beta showed a problem with the scene, there wasn't likely enough time to do anything about it. I'm just cutting Bio some slack on not picking up the problem before the beta.

I'm not a fan of boss fights per se, but if you think of what happened in Thessia, not Kai Leng stuff, but scene where there are Reaper ground forces and two Harvesters, did that felt like boss fight to you?

Beats me. Boss fights don't feel like anything in particular to me, except to the extent that they feel contrived. They often play differently since boss fights are typically structured around some sort of odd mechanic that only applies to that one boss. But feeling doesn't enter into it.

Edit: oh, I get it now. Yeah, I guess the truck fight had an odd mechanic too. Actually, it's the same odd mechanic we had on Tuchanka.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 janvier 2013 - 10:21 .

[ElementL09]

What the Lair of the Shadow Broker has shown us is that Boss fights can be both entertaining, challenging, sensible and fun. As I think about it more we don't necesarily need boss fights, but if a boss fight is being too video gamey, then so is just staking waves of waves enemies against the player.

[ZLurps]

ElementL09 wrote...

What the Lair of the Shadow Broker has shown us is that Boss fights can be both entertaining, challenging, sensible and fun. As I think about it more we don't necesarily need boss fights, but if a boss fight is being too video gamey, then so is just staking waves of waves enemies against the player.

Lair of the Shadow Broker boss fight fit in the style of that adventure, but I think most rewarding sections what we got were along the journey.

Tone, how it begins with sort of detective work, where is Liara?
Plot twist
Car chase scene
We get to see cool new things on Thessia
What so many were wishing, Liara as squad mate
Tela Vasir fight was ok.
Then we again get to new kind environment, Shadow Broker ship, which is pretty cool
Of course we finally get to see Shadow Broker himself, get some answers after years of speculation.

So LotSB gives us lots of things, lot of positive experiences. Fight against Shadow Broker was fun, but at the point where we get to it, we could be fighting a Volus, and it would still be at least okay because as whole experience was very good.

What comes to fighting waves of enemies, yeah, that can get tedious too. There are tricks that can be used. Think of playing through ME3 with every level having the same textures. We get to move up and down quite a bit in ME3 and that masks how linear ME3 maps actually are.
Same way, I used a bit of imagination in my example earlier about what could be added to defend the missile batteries battle on Priority: Earth. Core stays the same, what is important is setting is engaging to beging with and keeps us motivated and adds some variety, even if just perceived variety.

I guess revamping missile battery scene could give us better experience but ultimately, Priority:Earth miss scale, it doesn't feel like there is something huge happening here, and IMO adding another boss fight couldn't save it. Same way, boss fight alone in LotSB wouldn't make it great, if journey there wouldn't work as well as it does.

Modifié par ZLurps, 05 janvier 2013 - 11:16 .

[DextroDNA]

Just wondering, why has this thread been stickied?

[gesco420]

Still don't get the outrage over me3. I guess that works for me since I enjoy the game.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Apparently someone wants to read how we feel about boss fights in general. I think they need to be in context. I think they need to be in character of the person and not just for the sake of being there. I think they have to have an epic feel to them. I also think they shouldn't be ridiculous.

You need to be left with a "whew! made it." or "FK! Yeah!" The ending of Halo (original) The Final Run was a boss fight that didn't feel like one. No big tentacally thing to fight. A timed get the hell out of there.

LotSB had that car chase and that whole feel of urgency the entire time.

The Suicide Mission: time was of the essence. The human reaper to go inside the cuttlefish? Oh well. We shot those tubes, and we knew that was coming back up. Anyone who jumped out of their seats hasn't seen enough monster movies. Damn Jacob messed up my Cain. I had that thing locked and loaded *click* WTF? What else have I got that's any good?

[ZLurps]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Apparently someone wants to read how we feel about boss fights in general. I think they need to be in context. I think they need to be in character of the person and not just for the sake of being there. I think they have to have an epic feel to them. I also think they shouldn't be ridiculous.

You need to be left with a "whew! made it." or "FK! Yeah!" The ending of Halo (original) The Final Run was a boss fight that didn't feel like one. No big tentacally thing to fight. A timed get the hell out of there.

LotSB had that car chase and that whole feel of urgency the entire time.

The Suicide Mission: time was of the essence. The human reaper to go inside the cuttlefish? Oh well. We shot those tubes, and we knew that was coming back up. Anyone who jumped out of their seats hasn't seen enough monster movies. Damn Jacob messed up my Cain. I had that thing locked and loaded *click* WTF? What else have I got that's any good?

One problem is IMO that we don't connect with the Earth that much in ME3. There sure is lot of radio chatter on London base and it's very good but it's too little and too late and we needed something to get us pumped. Rest of the Priority: Earth is most of just our squad going forward with a bit of radio chatter trying to convey feeling of something bigger happening around us.

I have earlier toyed with idea about small victories. Shuttle gets shot down, there are survivors in a wreckage, cover those survivors for a minute or two so they can get to safety. Sniper team is surrounded in a building, blow up obstacled covering their escape route, takes minute or two. Climb up in a building to get visual if there's any survivors from shotdown frigate in a distance and inform base if evac team should be sent, takes few minutes.

Grab a Mako and roll over 100 Cannibals for gigles. Oh wait, we can't.

Anyway, if Priority: Earth could show us what happens in this war it would help us to connect with Earth, even it happened during last possible stages of game.

And that little extra, that would convey us that feeling: "****ing hell... yeah we are going down, but with flying colours." before we run to the beam.

[Ziegrif]

I'm one of those people who loves boss fights.
Usually they are the last thing I'll always remember from games.
Tiny Tiger in Crash Bandicoot 2.
Vulcan Raven in Metal Gear Solid.
Izanami in Persona 4.
Nyx in Persona 3.
Aumaan Anubis in ZOE2 second runner.
Liquid VS Snake in MGS4

All of these and many more boss fights gave me a rush way back when.
They were exciting. It felt final. It was a climactic battle with something on the line an apex of sorts. I grew up expecting to find those in videogames. Boss fights were a nice change of pace from the mechanics and gave in most games something new to try in a fight.

In Devil May Cry 3 the bosses gave different patterns that the usual cannon fodder enemies could not provide. They're a difficulty spike that challenge the player.

In ME3 we have the Leng encounters which I do like because I find Leng funny and childish as I did my Shep aswell. (Sad I know). I just wished the Leng fight would have been more personal. You had your squad which kind of breaks this 1 on 1 mentality I wanted. Then Leng calls for backup which annoyed me pretty much because no more chances for awesome hand to hand encounter.

I play videogames for the gameplay, story, bosses and the satisfaction that I BEAT IT! I managed to beat this test in whatever by my own wits and button mashing! Yes I know small little feeling to have but to me it meant a lot to beat a puzzle someone else put forth for me. That's why I love Shin Megami Tensei games a lot. The bosses there give you weaknesses and there are strategies on beating them surefire ways... but if you know what you're doing you can completely circumvent the entire boss mechanic and beat the AI in it's own little game I guess. Like using Almighty dmg on a boss that is supposed to be immune to all elementals.

So what does the relatively bossless ME3 ending feel to me in a gameplay way?
I just thought. So where's my 1 on 1 with Harby? Frankly I didn't really care that much about the conclusion found my own ways to like it eventually it didn't disappoint me really, nor satisfy because Harbinger did not have a proper send off at all.

I actually like the 3rd person shooting ME3 has I've played Multiplayer for close to 560 hours now done over 1500 missions in that. SO OF BLOODY COURSE I WANT BOSS FIGHTS!! And make them difficult at Insanity! ME3 insanity is a bloody joke compared to what you need to do at the Multi section of the game.

I would very much liked to have punched TIM too now that were on the subject!

So how would I implement the bosses then?
Make many ways to fight them of course! If BW wants to keep their cinematics why not just make 2 ways to fight them? 1 is a head on assault that would be a boss fight and the other way is a side mission where you find thingamabob that skips said boss battle and thus there'd be a more cinematic fight with the thingamabob included in.

I'd get to punch whatever I liked and BW gets their way to make more cinematics!

I bloody hate that boss battles are being swept under the rug nowadays in some games that desperately need that crescendo and climax a boss battle can deliver!

Eh well that's my incomprehensible rant that goes nowhere. Now I will go back to my hole in the Multiplayer section to shoot something and drink kool-aid from the skull of my enemy.

Modifié par Ziegrif, 06 janvier 2013 - 01:13 .

[liggy002]

RussianZombeh wrote...

Just wondering, why has this thread been stickied?

If it is as I suspect that means they will not have a Harbinger boss fight or any boss fight at all in the next DLC.  Oh well, they could have had my money.  Too bad.

[Xellith]

Brace yourselves.. incoming Kai Leg bossfight DLC!

[Lyrandori]

liggy002 wrote...

RussianZombeh wrote...

Just wondering, why has this thread been stickied?

If it is as I suspect that means they will not have a Harbinger boss fight or any boss fight at all in the next DLC.  Oh well, they could have had my money.  Too bad.

That, or probably just a reminder that there will be a Mass Effect movie anyway and they'll still continue making Mass Effect games regardless.

I guess that's also possible...

[Ryoten]

A boss fight with Harbinger would be more appropriate than TIM. They could have gotten creative with how you deal with his demise.

But as far as the "too video gamey" thing. I've been playing games since the 80's. Back then, if you played any of the games for Nintendo or the original Game Boy, games were actually hard. Nowwa days it feels like this new generation of gamers in their teens and in college, just want simple minded games. Games seem to be getting easier and easier and less creativity is being put into them. And i really don't understand WTF is wrong with peoples thinking anymore.

[liggy002]

Ryoten wrote...

A boss fight with Harbinger would be more appropriate than TIM. They could have gotten creative with how you deal with his demise.

But as far as the "too video gamey" thing. I've been playing games since the 80's. Back then, if you played any of the games for Nintendo or the original Game Boy, games were actually hard. Nowwa days it feels like this new generation of gamers in their teens and in college, just want simple minded games. Games seem to be getting easier and easier and less creativity is being put into them. And i really don't understand WTF is wrong with peoples thinking anymore.

Seriously man... it's the same thing for me.  I started playing games in 1988.   My first game ever was Mario for the NES I think.  I remember it was a damn challenging game but times have changed for the worse it seems.  It's like we're living in an idiocracy now.  Pretty soon people will be watering their grass with gatorade.

Modifié par liggy002, 06 janvier 2013 - 02:57 .