512 réponses à ce sujet

[liggy002]

You know, it's actually pretty funny. I made a thread with similar content to this one. I joked around that all combat should be removed because it was too videogamey. My thread got locked and I was banned from the forums as a result. Yet, somehow, this thread wasn't even locked, and it EVEN got stickied. LOL

[liggy002]

Lazengan wrote...

Well Bioware perhaps you should make movies instead of video games, which you clearly hate

Scrap DA3

make it a movie

You view video games as a medium to tell stories. Why bother? you hate making video games, interaction, and gameplay. Don't stress yourself over this, might as well focus your efforts on making movies to tell your stories. 

An example:

The uncharted series. I watched all 3 games on youtube titled "uncharted the movie" and it actually works as a movie. As for the gameplay itself, it's crap. Stupid actions like press awesome button to do awesome cutscene flips and ladder climbing. Primitive unchallenging puzzles. Mediocre shooting. How they won game of the year simply tells me that modern gamers have lost sense of what a game truly is. An activity in where ambigious desicions are made in order to reach/fullfill a goal. If the main focus is story, why bother with gameplay, make a movie. 

I fully enjoyed uncharted more as a movie than as a video game, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

Mass Effect 3 was an interactive movie with mediocre shooting combat segments in between. Just save us the trouble of more "artistic integrity" bs and make Dragon Age 3 a movie. If you are not going to give us no choices to begin with, might as well make it what you see fit, in the form of a MOVIE which is MEANT to have 0 interaction 

The Mass Effect Movie sounds like a much better idea to me now, since storytelling (though recently this has come into question) is one of Bioware's fortes. I would really like to see the product of Bioware channeling their full resources into a medium that truly fits their philosophy

Regarding the 'boss fight', Portal is a great example of how to do a fitting en-game boss. It's not a bullet sponge, to get to the next stage of the fight you only have to succeed once, and you're using the mechanics you've learned previously.
The problem with Mass Effect, is that you can't have a boss like that, because the mechanics aren't all that interesting or deep. Playing on Insanity isn't challenging, it's just frustrating. To every fight there is one clear 'solution' that you have to get through trial-death-loading screen. Having an end-game indoctrinated TIM as a boss fight would have been appropriate. That's the big issue, that it's appropriate.
Bioware games never had great gameplay, and they never really cared much about gameplay either. But what they do well is telling character driven stories. The main plots of their games tend to suck, but that's because they're driven by the player character, who has to be a non-character and there are far too many variables to consider. But the side-missions with the characters, those are pretty darn gripping.


So why not distill the things Bioware cares about and is good at making from the things Bioware doesn't care for? Why even have player interactivity, when you can tell a much more gripping, well crafted, well paced story that allows the character to really tell us her story?


Every good story BioWare told with Mass Effect, they weren't telling it with gameplay. Nothing was improved by adding it in, yet they spent time and money on it. Does that seem right to you?

I'll tell you what doesn't seem to right to me OP.  The idea that the element of choice should be removed in favor of autodialogue.  That's what makes Mass Effect unique and its Universe so rich and vast.  The element of CHOICE.  The idea that the player can choose his or her own story.  If you take that away, then you have nothing but a linear story that is lacking in adventure and suspense in every sense of the word.  You might ask yourself "What would have happened if I had made that choice?"  That's why I understand why people are so upset about the Rachni and the Collector base choices.  Everyone seemed to be railroaded into the same plot line.  And it seemed to allow the newer players to be on the same level as us.

  This is clearly not the way to go about it.  They catered too much to the newer crowds.  The choices should have had more of an impact and the newer crowds should have been somewhat lost.  Why?  Because then they would have more of an incentive to go back and play the previous Mass Effect games to get up to speed.  It's strange.  It's almost as if somebody despised ME1 and ME2 and wanted to invalidate those games.  These people fail to realize that this is one of the main reasons if not THE MAIN REASON why we were interested in Mass Effect in the first place.

Modifié par liggy002, 06 janvier 2013 - 07:41 .

[Grubas]

Yap bw missed the oportunity to invest everything they had into ME3, to uplift the sales for their complete product range.

So many things feel so cheap, so many times bioware took the lazy man's road. In ME1 and 2 things were polished. Here we have pointless tank chase, pointless turret sequences, and the Husk that gets stuck in the door on priority earth.... can't even hurt you.

I bet there would have been enough reception to rework Deception.

'Videogamey' sounds just like an excuse.

[liggy002]

Grubas wrote...

Yap bw missed the oportunity to invest everything they had into ME3, to uplift the sales for their complete product range.

So many things feel so cheap, so many times bioware took the lazy man's road. In ME1 and 2 things were polished. Here we have pointless tank chase, pointless turret sequences, and the Husk that gets stuck in the door on priority earth.... can't even hurt you.

I bet there would have been enough reception to rework Deception.

'Videogamey' sounds just like an excuse.

In my opinion, ME3 as a whole needs to be remade and enhanced with a greater emphasis on player choice and more exploration.

[Eryri]

thefallen2far wrote...

ZLurps wrote...


Okay, prove me wrong. Post end boss fight idea for ME3 that works.

Technically, anyting could work. Removing it completey relies on the story you're telling to overcome the lack of involvement, which it completely failed at.

That said:
1. The Crucible could have stunned harbinger to the ground, and then the small team of 3 go into the reaper killing husks to the brain center to destroy him.

2. Make the crucible a physical weapon like an emp for Reapers that you fire at Reapers a la MGS2

3. Indoctrination attempt. They attempt to indoctrinate you, they show you your life and the decisions you made showing you how corrupted and colatile your choices were and how the order of the silence the Reapers bring. It also gives you the sense anything you did matter, which would be kinda cool.

4. Shoot that nonsensical M Night shyamalan inspired ghost kid [that had to be the result of a brain anurism that the writer should get checked from a doctor] until you hear click on your infinate ammo gun.

5 fight the ghost vision of whoever you left on Virmire.

6. Fight a version of yorself... ghost of youself or anti version of yorself a la Superman 3.

7. Fight hulking TiM.

8. Heck fight the digital version of the game developers.... anything would be an improvement.

Great list. I especially like number 1 and number 6. Actually number 6 would lead well into number 1. You could stun Harbinger in a mental battle, then finish him off in the real world before he recovers.

Regarding the mental battle with an anti-Shepard; you could fight Harbinger in the form of a version of Shep with the exact same powers and weapons as your own. This would mean that the better you had chosen your Shepard's powers, the more challenging the fight would be. The whole thing could take place in some nightmarish mental landscape within Shepard's mind.

Modifié par Eryri, 06 janvier 2013 - 09:40 .

[babachewie]

Its a new year and people are still brining up old crap and crying about the ending. Pathetic.

[Someone With Mass]

babachewie wrote...

Its a new year and people are still brining up old crap and crying about the ending. Pathetic.

You know what's also pathetic? People getting riled up over something they can easily ignore. Like these complains about the endings. You can ignore them.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 06 janvier 2013 - 10:55 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Someone With Mass wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Its a new year and people are still brining up old crap and crying about the ending. Pathetic.

You know what's also pathetic? People getting riled up over something they can easily ignore. Like these complains about the endings. You can ignore them.

To be fair, you can't when ten complaint threads pop up every hour on here. The forum is being ruined by this very loud minority, and to be fair, I can see why it's starting to annoy quite a few people. 

In my opinion.

[Someone With Mass]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...
To be fair, you can't when ten complaint threads pop up every hour on here. The forum is being ruined by this very loud minority, and to be fair, I can see why it's starting to annoy quite a few people. 

In my opinion.

This problem has such an easy solution, it's just sad to see you complain about it. But apparently, none of you have the ability to ignore something, so I can also see how that may become a problem in itself.

As for the topic, I'd rather see BioWare try to do more varied boss fights than having the protagonist trying to always talk the problem away, which presents absolutely no challenge, since it's so easy to improve the character's charisma or whatever until the point where one can blow through the conversation without any difficulties.

That's not saying that it shouldn't be used at all, merely that it's been used poorly in places where a couple of bullets would have solved everyone's problems before they even appeared. Like any conversation with TIM while Kai Lame is pretty much just standing there, waiting for the word, like the good little lapdog he is.

If Shepard didn't suffer from plot stupidity on Thessia, he'd have riddled Kai Lame with bullets before the communication drone had deployed.

[ElSuperGecko]

Posted this elsewhere, may as well stick it here as well, because a boss battle doesn't necessarily mean one sequence, or one formula. We could have had a boss mission, or a boss WAR.

Harbinger is such a large enemy and potent threat, that it shouldn't be a "boss battle", but a series of interlinked missions in and of itself. Almost like the Suici9de Mission/Collector Base assault in ME2.

I could see it playing out along these lines:

Use Normandy to fly in close to Harbinger's hull, then shuttle down and land on the actual hull itself (think magboots on the Citadel tower in ME1).

Fight your way across Harbinger's hull, battling Collectors as you go until you reach an access point (Shadow Broker base in ME2)

Board Harbinger, and work your way to his central core while fighting off waves of Collectors and assigning squadmates to complete certain tasks (Suicide Mission, ME2). As you progress, you encounter dialogues with Harbinger which lead to indoctrination effects/hallucinations (think, Scarecrow Arkham Asylum/Eternal Darkness)

On reaching the core, you need to prime a series of dark matter charges while defending yourself from Collectors and Harbinger's core itself. As you prime the charges, Harbinger assumes control of your squadmates, and you fight them as well. Once the charges are primed and the core temporarily shut down, you can choose to use lethal force (less difficult), non-lethal force (more difficult) or talk them down (subject to relationship, influence and persuasion levels).

Then you have a free-running style escape sequence, as you race the clock and waves of enemies to the extraction point before the charges blow.

Throw in a few tough decisions, like having to make a choice between saving a squadmate and protectingt one of the charges, or having to leave someone behind to guard them (think Virmire), or potentially even staying behind yourself so your squadmates manage to escape, and you're golden.

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 06 janvier 2013 - 12:57 .

[Jadebaby]

I cannot beleive this is still stickied, it's getting to the point whether I'm wondering if it's an accident or there's some conspiracty behind it.... hmm.....


Mass respect for eveyrone battling it out in this thread. Especially Brovikk, because he (at least) can distinguish between his opinion and factual information.

I U all..

But Shepard still deserves better and if a boss fight is what that requires, then "so be it."

*evil Priestly emoticon.*

[tracesaint]

All I know is the game presented in the art book and the game we got looked quite different. I figured there would be a bossfight, ME3 felt more like a videogame than the first 2. Between the focus on action, the cyber ninjas, and the Michael Bay action movie dialogue I figured the Illusive Man would turn into a cybernetic Popsicle or something. Anything.

[ZLurps]

liggy002 wrote...

Ryoten wrote...

A boss fight with Harbinger would be more appropriate than TIM. They could have gotten creative with how you deal with his demise.

But as far as the "too video gamey" thing. I've been playing games since the 80's. Back then, if you played any of the games for Nintendo or the original Game Boy, games were actually hard. Nowwa days it feels like this new generation of gamers in their teens and in college, just want simple minded games. Games seem to be getting easier and easier and less creativity is being put into them. And i really don't understand WTF is wrong with peoples thinking anymore.

Seriously man... it's the same thing for me.  I started playing games in 1988.   My first game ever was Mario for the NES I think.  I remember it was a damn challenging game but times have changed for the worse it seems.  It's like we're living in an idiocracy now.  Pretty soon people will be watering their grass with gatorade.

I too lived through computer / video game revolution in the 80's and it's funny how I remember it very differently.

Games were challenging for sure, many of the games being Shoot 'em ups (called Smups at these days). I recall Nemesis and later Salamander being pretty great. I also liked Lightforce and Bulldog, 1942 had some impressive boss fights as well. Then there were really tough games like Sanxion and Delta, where you had memorise entire game to be able to react to incoming enemy waves, so it was all about trial and error. No wonder trainer cheats were popular.

If those games were so great, why don't you load them up in emulator? I sometimes do that in my nostalgy. Those nostalgy trips usually don't last very long.

There were buggy games, Jet Set Willy was famous for that player couldn't beat it because of buggy design and there weren't patches back in the day. Good times, my arse.

GameBoy was released in 1989 and it's most popular titles were built in Tetris and Tetris clones. Don't recall there was a boss fight in that.

When it comes to games that are considered classics, I don't see anyone mention Shoot ' em ups, or platformers, excluding Mario Bros. I see mentions of Elite, which remake just got crowd funded, and Mercenary remake is still kicking, those sure had great boss battles, Oh wait, they didn't feature boss battles at all.

What comes to blaming kids for trend gaming becoming easier, it only tells about your own ignorance. Kids don't create games, they don't run the industry, average age of PC/ Console player is around 30 years.
You say you are about my age, makes me wonder what's your mental age because somehow you have failed to notice that it's our own generation that runs the gaming industry. It also appears that for all life experience you have, you haven't learned that generalisations can be very stupid:
www.youtube.com/watch

There's lot good ideas in topic but I don't really see you contributing much but repeating "I WANT MY HARBINGER!" and because "MARIO BROS." Really mature. Makes me wonder that Idiocrasy comment and what kind of society is it, where you are considered any sort of intellectual. I'll give you that.

Modifié par ZLurps, 06 janvier 2013 - 03:33 .

[Grubas]

Did you know that the Rannoch Reaper was supposed to be fought using the geth tank? Shadow of the colossus style.

Modifié par Grubas, 06 janvier 2013 - 03:09 .

[Someone With Mass]

Grubas wrote...

Did you know that the Rannoch Reaper was supposed to be fought using the geth tank? Shadow of the colossus style.

Really? Why didn't they have that instead of the Benny Hill routine of running from side to side while painting it with a laser?

[ZLurps]

thefallen2far wrote...

ZLurps wrote...


Okay, prove me wrong. Post end boss fight idea for ME3 that works.

Technically, anyting could work. Removing it completey relies on the story you're telling to overcome the lack of involvement, which it completely failed at.

That said:
1. The Crucible could have stunned harbinger to the ground, and then the small team of 3 go into the reaper killing husks to the brain center to destroy him.

2. Make the crucible a physical weapon like an emp for Reapers that you fire at Reapers a la MGS2

3. Indoctrination attempt. They attempt to indoctrinate you, they show you your life and the decisions you made showing you how corrupted and colatile your choices were and how the order of the silence the Reapers bring. It also gives you the sense anything you did matter, which would be kinda cool.

4. Shoot that nonsensical M Night shyamalan inspired ghost kid [that had to be the result of a brain anurism that the writer should get checked from a doctor] until you hear click on your infinate ammo gun.

5 fight the ghost vision of whoever you left on Virmire.

6. Fight a version of yorself... ghost of youself or anti version of yorself a la Superman 3.

7. Fight hulking TiM.

8. Heck fight the digital version of the game developers.... anything would be an improvement.

1). I know lot of people wanted to destroy Harbinger. As it is, your option would require revamping EC. If we had something to distract Harbinger in the final run to beam sequence, we would get some sort of reason why it didn't blasted Normandy & co. to hell when they were standing right under it's nose.

2). Something like that was speculated on forums before people knew about the Crusible at all. BW didn't took that route and I don't think they are going to do that after EC.

3). BW tried to implement this, but it was dropped because of technical reasons. Then what is TIM controlling Shepard and Anderson but acting as proxy for Reapers?

4). I fail to see how Catalyst survival would be dependant of a hologram.

5). Those who started with ME3 wouldn't have any idea what VS is.

6, 7, 8). Now you are just venting, aren't you?

Modifié par ZLurps, 06 janvier 2013 - 03:20 .

[ZLurps]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

I think games like Journey where there really are no enemies, no fighting, and simple gameplay for the sake of beautiful simplicity are amazing. Seems to me that this is the kind of direction BioWare was thinking of when coming up with the concept for the way the game plays in the end.

However, Mass Effect is no Journey. You can't have a game full of video game-style action abandon all that at the very last minute and try to be something it's not. If they didn't want something video-gamey, they needed to...I dunno, make a DIFFERENT game, perhaps? XD I personally find the entire section from the beam rush onward to just be terribly dull because there is literally nothing to do. There is nothing resembling gameplay at all. It just becomes a movie you get to move (and painfully slow at that) through.

Boss fights also affect gamers psychologically in a huge way. I'd argue that a huge part of the takeaway from a game and the feeling of "winning" or "beating" the game has a lot to do with the boss fight. If you actually overcome something, you have something to feel victorious about. Going back to Journey, there is no boss fight in that game, but you have to push on through increasingly miserable conditions. That's what makes you feel like you accomplished something. With ME3, you just go through the motions, select some dialogue options, and that's it. There is absolutely nothing about that final sequence that would invoke a sense of accomplishment because there is absolutely 0 challenge in it. (Other than maybe picking your poison at the end, but even that is debatable. It feels like an arbitrary victory because you really didn't do much beyond walking to your final destination.)

IMO a lot of this stems from lackluster Priority: Earth and if you read the thread you cansee there are suggestions made how to revamp it, so it would be more rewarding experience. Some posted by me, giving small victories during Priority: Earth and revamping final "boss fight", the missile battery scene, so it would actually deliver what it was perhaps supposed to deliver.

[Someone With Mass]

Ashep123 wrote...

How many boss fights were in ME3?

Well, there's the Reaper on Tuchanka, the Reaper on Rannoch, Kai Lame's fights on Thessia and Cronos station, the Reaper you nuke with a Cain on Earth and then the Reaper you launch a bunch of missiles at.

So...plenty.

[Grubas]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Grubas wrote...

Did you know that the Rannoch Reaper was supposed to be fought using the geth tank? Shadow of the colossus style.

Really? Why didn't they have that instead of the Benny Hill routine of running from side to side while painting it with a laser?

Dont know... they couldnt make this boss fight AND Kai Leng? 

[Outsider edge]

Ashep123 wrote...

How many boss fights were in ME3?

Technically only one and that includes all the DLC up untill now. The only bossfight where you are directly involved in is the Kai Leng fight. Or fights but the first confrontation with him has such a big ammount of plot armor i'm not counting that one.

[Outsider edge]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ashep123 wrote...

How many boss fights were in ME3?

Well, there's the Reaper on Tuchanka, the Reaper on Rannoch, Kai Lame's fights on Thessia and Cronos station, the Reaper you nuke with a Cain on Earth and then the Reaper you launch a bunch of missiles at.

So...plenty.

All the Reaper fights have you do some task (Rannoch aiming the fleet cannons, or Priority"Earth's hordemode while waiting for the launcher too be calibrated) so Shepard is only indirectly involved. The only "boss" he/she really fights personally is Kai Leng.

So in that regard a DLC package like Lair of the Shadowbroker alone has twice the ammount of direct bossfights as ME3+DLC's combined.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 06 janvier 2013 - 03:49 .

[Grubas]

Yap some bossfights are nothing more then a minigame.