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[ZLurps]

Enigma SS wrote...

When something is "cliche" there's a reason it's cliche, it has worked countless times in the past. Video games usually have boss fights because they are the the true climax of the game, the "boss" is the symbol of everything you have fought for and sacrificed to get to and a good boss fight is epitome of gaming. The game just wouldn't be the same without it, having hordes come at you in the final fight like ME3 is just....underwhelming.

A boss fight doesn't have to be the traditional big monster fight but it's very difficult to do. MGS4 did a wonderful job of having a great final boss fight without a massive monster/mech at the end. Something similar could have been done with the Illusive Man without him having to transform.

Instead of trying to make the boss itself unique, if you want to be original then make the fight itself unique. Do something fun/challenging that no one else has done in a final fight; hordes of enemies coming at you is not fun at all.

I don't think there's much game breaking regarding Horde mode and fighting actual Reapers before London.

London Reaper fight/ horde mode leaves lot to be desired. IMO it doesn't
fall short because of Reaper destroyer and Horde mode is actually the most desperate in game, but rather because we don't
really feel scale of what is happening there. It feels unpolished and
indeed "video gamey".

Kai Leng doesn't work IMO because character is stretched way too much, and when we finally get rid of him, many of us are getting rid of something that presents negative aspects of ME3 boss fights. Our satisfaction doesn't come necessarily from beating challenging antagonist, but irritiating game play element.

Overall, ME series IMO handled boss fights rather well, and for very reason that those sequences fit well in the game world and don't take us out from our immersion, which is important for many who play Adventure/RPG hybrid like ME saga.

Examples:

ME1:

Getting to Fist on Citadel, fighting his thugs in Chora's Den worked really well at that stage of the game.

Therum, Krogan mercenary with his band. It could be a really tough fight with low level party and if you haven't optimised your characters. Still, it was just very tough Krogan, totally plausible and it didn't felt "too video gamey" to me at least. It just worked.

Geth Armatures, supported with other troops could be tough on foot, especialy if they got troops supply from Geth drop ships. Again, very plasible scenarios.

Saren confrontation on Virmire. Even player couldn't kill Saren in that sequence, it still just worked, which is huge contrast to Kai Leng confontrations in ME3, which really feel very video gamey indeed, and not in a good way.

Final battle against robo-Saren was bit here and there, but ultimately, I think it worked, not because it was a boss fight per se, but our journey to that point was engaging enough for us to be very motivated in that fight.

Thresher Maws, there were perhaps too many of them.

Fighting Rachni Hive Guardians on one N7 mission.


ME2.

Krogans on Omega during Mordins recruiting mission. They are tough, nothing ridiculous here.

Mording recruitment mission final battle against Vorchas worked well IMO, even I don't like some design desicions regarding Vorcha.

Turian in the end of Jack's recruiting mission. Very tough Turian, I can easily imagine anyone in his position would be tough.

Thresher Maw on Tuchanca.

Fighting Bloodpack on Tuchanca, scene where we have option to use Renegade interrupt.

Fighting against enemy Gunships on Omega, Thessia and Kasumi DLC.

Suicide mission * was imo great.

* Excluding that Terminator clone. Damn thing could have wiped us all to hell from the platform, but it didn't, because we needed time to shoot those tubes and eyes or whatever. There were many things wrong with it, beyond it's visual design.


ME3

Banshees, Brutes, Geth Primes and Atlas are fine IMO. Harvesters are real special enemy type and I wish they were used a bit more, not to the point where we get tired of them, though. Fighting against two Harvesters on Thessia was really great.


For me it looks like that more BW tries to adapt something that doesn't fit well in the setting, Terminator or Kai Leng for example, less satisfying "boss fights" we get.

Modifié par ZLurps, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:36 .

[clarkusdarkus]

" don't get too attatched to the plot" " too videogamey" ...dunno which one makes me facepalm more out the two..

On topic, i love boss battles, always have, always will...its a break from the normal grind of standard type enemies....levellin up in an ME3 makes u feel completely overpowered as there is no antagonist of equal ability to strive towards...... If i want to talk someone to death i'll play heavy rain or watch heavy rain so to speak

[Grubas]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

" don't get too attatched to the plot" " too videogamey" ...dunno which one makes me facepalm more out the two..

On topic, i love boss battles, always have, always will...its a break from the normal grind of standard type enemies....levellin up in an ME3 makes u feel completely overpowered as there is no antagonist of equal ability to strive towards...... If i want to talk someone to death i'll play heavy rain or watch heavy rain so to speak

Heavy Rain makes you talk someone into suicide? I thought ME1 was the only one.. Hurray for videogamey

[Brug0r]

"I didn't like the last Spider-man movie. It was too 'comic-y' and 'superheroish'"

[Bill Casey]

You know what is video gamey?



Kai Leng...
Why is he a cyberpunk ninja in a space marine game?
If he's a stealthy assassin, why is he about as subtle as a mad truck?
Why does he have a visor that looks like it belongs in anime?

If Kai Leng was competent in his role, we should have barely seen him...
Like, when you stumble upon scientists on Thessia with their throats slit before you got there...
That impressed me more than posing on my flying car...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 06 janvier 2013 - 06:36 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Bill Casey wrote...
You know what is video gamey?

Kai Leng...
Why is he a cyberpunk ninja?
If he's a stealthy assassin, why is he about as subtle as a mad truck?
Why does he have a visor that looks like it belongs in anime?

If Kai Leng was competent in his role, we should have barely seen him...
Like, when you stumble upon scientists on Thessia with their throats slit before you got there...
That impressed me more than posing on my car...

I agree with this post.  The sequences involving Kai Leng were some of the mosty lacklustre, uninspiring and downright frustrating in the game.

I felt nothing after the defeat to Leng on Thessia.  It was built up in the story as a morale-crushing blow for Shepard, when it felt like anything but.

A traitor from within your own ranks - whether James, EDI/EVA or someone else - and Shepard's reaction would have been understandable.  But Leng was a laughworthy villain, and totally immersion breaking in his every appearance.

[Raizo]

Depends on how you do them.

I think Bioware looked back on alot of the flack they took for ME2's last boss and they decided to throw the baby out with the bath water ( people did not hate the idea of a last boss, they just thought the giant T-1000 clone was a bit lame and uninspired not to mention poorly explained, ie. why did this new Reaper look like a human ).

I don't think ME3 needed to end with a boss fight, it did however need to end with the gamer feeling like they accomplished something, with a strong sense of victory of having over come the odds and the quickest and most efficient way to do this is with a Boss Fight. When I beat ME3 I did not feel like I accomplished anything at all, it was all very anti climatic. If I at least got a chance to liberate London, or force the Reapers to leave Earth alone or a chance to destroy Harbringer I would have felt a little something ( I still would have been pissed at the endings but I at least I would have some proof that I did something that mattered ).

[Sejborg]

Brug0r wrote...

"I didn't like the last Spider-man movie. It was too 'comic-y' and 'superheroish'"

You talking about The Amazing Spiderman? Because I felt that was less 'comic-y' than the entire first trilogy of Spiderman movies. 

I for one didn't mind the reboot though, since I felt that Spiderman 3 was too '****-y' and 'stupid-y'. 

[Someone With Mass]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
You know what is video gamey?

Kai Leng...
Why is he a cyberpunk ninja?
If he's a stealthy assassin, why is he about as subtle as a mad truck?
Why does he have a visor that looks like it belongs in anime?

If Kai Leng was competent in his role, we should have barely seen him...
Like, when you stumble upon scientists on Thessia with their throats slit before you got there...
That impressed me more than posing on my car...

I agree with this post.  The sequences involving Kai Leng were some of the mosty lacklustre, uninspiring and downright frustrating in the game.

I felt nothing after the defeat to Leng on Thessia.  It was built up in the story as a morale-crushing blow for Shepard, when it felt like anything but.

A traitor from within your own ranks - whether James, EDI/EVA or someone else - and Shepard's reaction would have been understandable.  But Leng was a laughworthy villain, and totally immersion breaking in his every appearance.

They really should have modeled him after his character in Retribution.

He planned his moves there, played strategically and manipulated others to help him.

In ME3, he just goes for whatever he wants, hoping to stab whatever's in his way with his sword.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The videogamey boss fight. The movie cliche bad guy boss fight. Here is what it is....

The big bad boss at the end gets to explain their motives and why the hero has lost to the hero while the audience or player is just sitting there helplessly wondering why the hero can't just shoot the f****** since there doesn't seem to be anyone else around. It would be so dishonorable.

So instead of shooting the villain outright, the hero challenges the villain to an honorable duel with swords. And of course the audience is thinking "you idiot! Why didn't you just shoot him?" The villain accepts. Of course everyone knows the villain is going to cheat. Yes, he'll fight with swords, and you'll get the villain down, but each time you'll get him down he'll summon mooks to come in and attack you while he recovers. You'll fend them off. You'll go through this three times, and just about on your last thread of health, you'll strike the fatal blow.

But renegade good guys should be able to cheat, too, especially against megalomaniac psychotics.... like this one in this 50 year old movie.

[Grubas]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They really should have modeled him after his character in Retribution.

He planned his moves there, played strategically and manipulated others to help him.

In ME3, he just goes for whatever he wants, hoping to stab whatever's in his way with his sword.

They should make him killable at the very first confrontation, like all the other badasses in the trilogy. This final fight was a joke, he was more difficult to kill then the shadow broker. And we still dont know the "nature" of his shields, despite acting like the literally "plotshields".

[Zavox]

Why is this stickied? What relevance has this above other discussions on the board?

[Someone With Mass]

Grubas wrote...

They should make him killable at the very first confrontation, like all the other badasses in the trilogy. This final fight was a joke, he was more difficult to kill then the shadow broker. And we still dont know the "nature" of his shields, despite acting like the literally "plotshields".

They should have made it so you're confronting TIM at his base instead of the Citadel as well. 

You defeat the lapdog and then you take it to the boss. I really don't care if he's supposed to symbolize Control, since he has no real place in the last act.

[Xellith]

Zavox wrote...

Why is this stickied? What relevance has this above other discussions on the board?

If you expect a logical and reasoned answer, you will have a long wait.

Modifié par Xellith, 06 janvier 2013 - 08:26 .

[ZLurps]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Grubas wrote...

They should make him killable at the very first confrontation, like all the other badasses in the trilogy. This final fight was a joke, he was more difficult to kill then the shadow broker. And we still dont know the "nature" of his shields, despite acting like the literally "plotshields".

They should have made it so you're confronting TIM at his base instead of the Citadel as well. 

You defeat the lapdog and then you take it to the boss. I really don't care if he's supposed to symbolize Control, since he has no real place in the last act.

I have been thinking the same but ended Kai Leng's story arch on Thessia. I thought that it would work like Shep and co. being distracted by something, Cerberus task force attacking from shuttle perhaps. Then Leng comes out from hiding and grabs the Prothean VI, and makes a run to the shuttle while Shep and co. fights off Cerberus Phantoms and Nemesis. There would also be Gunship covering Leng.

Then, Leng wouldn't leave with the shuttle and gun ship. Instead, perhaps with some additional Phantoms and Nemesis from the shuttle, he stays behind covering leaving shuttle so Shep and co. can't get even lucky shot in with their weapons. In the end, he faces Shep and co. in fight to death.

This would IMO improve Leng's character. He wouldn't appear such a coward anymore. We still failed in our only goal that really mattered and we would have a motive to go to Sancuary, but that we defeated Leng could give us at least some satisfaction.

Miranda's portion of Sanctuary mission would change a bit, Leng of course wouldnt' be on Sanctuary at all. Not a biggie, because as it is, we only see security footage of him anyway.

Then, like you wrote, it would be TIM's turn to bite the dust.

[Epique Phael767]

Zavox wrote...

Why is this stickied? What relevance has this above other discussions on the board?

Either Bioware/EA are reviewing this for possible DLC, or are reviewing the logic of Mac Walters and Casey Hudson in order to finally fire them. Both of which are sadly unlikely.

[NatP]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Why is this stickied? What relevance has this above other discussions on the board?

Either Bioware/EA are reviewing this for possible DLC, or are reviewing the logic of Mac Walters and Casey Hudson in order to finally fire them. Both of which are sadly unlikely.

But why would they sticky this thread but not the "Have you lost your trust" one, which contains some of the most well-written and smart posts I have ever read on these forums?

[Jadebaby]

Zavox wrote...

Why is this stickied? What relevance has this above other discussions on the board?

I'm still under the impression that it was a mistake on Stanley Woo's part when he was in a panic to get Flog63rd's troll thread locked.. Some pretty nasty stuff in there...

[Epique Phael767]

NatP wrote...

Epique Phael767 wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Why is this stickied? What relevance has this above other discussions on the board?

Either Bioware/EA are reviewing this for possible DLC, or are reviewing the logic of Mac Walters and Casey Hudson in order to finally fire them. Both of which are sadly unlikely.

But why would they sticky this thread but not the "Have you lost your trust" one, which contains some of the most well-written and smart posts I have ever read on these forums?

Either because it's Bioware and doing things right isn't their policy, or because they didn't have enough time or desire to read that one.

[NatP]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

NatP wrote...

Epique Phael767 wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Why is this stickied? What relevance has this above other discussions on the board?

Either Bioware/EA are reviewing this for possible DLC, or are reviewing the logic of Mac Walters and Casey Hudson in order to finally fire them. Both of which are sadly unlikely.

But why would they sticky this thread but not the "Have you lost your trust" one, which contains some of the most well-written and smart posts I have ever read on these forums?

Either because it's Bioware and doing things right isn't their policy, or because they didn't have enough time or desire to read that one.

Yeah, sometimes it feels like they just don't give a crap anymore...

[chemiclord]

Or...

It got stickied by accident and no one is around over the weekend to fix it.

[NatP]

chemiclord wrote...

Or...

It got stickied by accident and no one is around over the weekend to fix it.

Yeah, that is also quite likely.

[AlanC9]

chemiclord wrote...

Or...

It got stickied by accident and no one is around over the weekend to fix it.

I keep telling you that  logic has no place on the BSN.

[Eryri]

Actually the mods were active over the weekend. One of them even locked a thread which asked why this one was stickied - http://social.biowar.../index/15493861.

Maybe Ninja Stan doesn't have enough site privileges to un-sticky a thread?

Modifié par Eryri, 06 janvier 2013 - 11:00 .

[Grubas]

To sum it up; we didnt like Kai Leng boss fight-
we dont think that TIM confrontation needed a bossfight, though it
would be nice-
but we agree that not properly fighting harbinger in the end is a missed opportunity