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" A boss fight feels too video gamey"


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#476
Someone With Mass

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Grubas wrote...

To sum it up; we didnt like Kai Leng boss fight-
we dont think that TIM confrontation needed a bossfight, though it
would be nice-
but we agree that not properly fighting harbinger in the end is a missed opportunity


Pretty much, but I think Harbinger should have gotten a tad more attention throughout the game than that, even if I couldn't stand the guy's taunts in ME2 after a while.

Though, I admit that it improved a little in Arrival. Which is something I think should get more attention as well. Improve, don't discard.

#477
ZLurps

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Grubas wrote...

To sum it up; we didnt like Kai Leng boss fight-
we dont think that TIM confrontation needed a bossfight, though it
would be nice-
but we agree that not properly fighting harbinger in the end is a missed opportunity


"We"?

Almost nobody liked Kai Leng boss fights, I'll give you that.

What comes to TIM boss fight, there are few people who liked the idea, but I really don't see majority behind it.
There are people who really wanted to have boss fight with Harbinger for different reasons. I see few being very loud but I don't see them being majority.

Something we agree, in addition of Kai Leng boss fights being not exactly cream of the crop:
Practically everyone want end game levels offering some sort of climax, be that during Priority: Earth or on the Citadel.

#478
Cobra's_back

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I really like a Boss fight. This is one of the reasons I play. I like to customize the character and see how well it does in the fight.

#479
Cobra's_back

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"Grubas wrote...

To sum it up; we didnt like Kai Leng boss fight-
we dont think that TIM confrontation needed a bossfight, though it
would be nice-
but we agree that not properly fighting harbinger in the end is a missed opportunity
"
I really wanted this "fighting harbinger".

#480
Bill Casey

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Harbinger could be an entire level...
He's giant inside, he can mess with your mind and he has a Leviathan Core, apparently...

Which would have been a great opportunity to better explain what the human reaper was, and why it looked like a Terminator...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 janvier 2013 - 12:15 .


#481
Fur28

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[quote]Bill Casey wrote...

Harbinger could be an entire level...
He's giant inside, he can mess with your mind and he has a Leviathan Core, apparently...

Which would have been a great opportunity to better explain what the human reaper was, and why it looked like a Terminator...[/quote]
[quote]ElSuperGecko wrote...
I voted other, because Harbinger is such a large enemy and potent threat, that it shouldn't be a "boss battle", but a series of interlinked missions in and of itself. Almost like the Suici9de Mission/Collector Base assault in ME2.

I could see it playing out along these lines:

Use Normandy to fly in close to Harbinger's hull, then shuttle down and land on the actual hull itself (think magboots on the Citadel tower in ME1).

Fight your way across Harbinger's hull, battling Collectors as you go until you reach an access point (Shadow Broker base in ME2)

Board Harbinger, and work your way to his central core while fighting off waves of Collectors and assigning squadmates to complete certain tasks (Suicide Mission, ME2). As you progress, you encounter dialogues with Harbinger which lead to indoctrination effects/hallucinations (think, Scarecrow Arkham Asylum/Eternal Darkness)

On reaching the core, you need to prime a series of dark matter charges while defending yourself from Collectors and Harbinger's core itself. As you prime the charges, Harbinger assumes control of your squadmates, and you fight them as well. Once the charges are primed and the core temporarily shut down, you can choose to use lethal force (less difficult), non-lethal force (more difficult) or talk them down (subject to relationship, influence and persuasion levels).

Then you have a free-running style escape sequence, as you race the clock and waves of enemies to the extraction point before the charges blow.

Throw in a few tough decisions, like having to make a choice between saving a squadmate and protectingt one of the charges, or having to leave someone behind to guard them (think Virmire), or potentially even staying behind yourself so your squadmates manage to escape, and you're golden. [quote]

#482
liggy002

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ghostbusters101 wrote...

I really like a Boss fight. This is one of the reasons I play. I like to customize the character and see how well it does in the fight.



Yeah, just about everybody JRPG or respectable RPG has a boss battle so you can test out your characters skills and abilities as well as level against the boss.

#483
ME859

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Boss Fights are EPIC if they're done right.

GOD OF WAR 3 | Kratos VS Cronos

Modifié par ME859, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:18 .


#484
Bill Casey

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Fur28 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Harbinger could be an entire level...
He's giant inside, he can mess with your mind and he has a Leviathan Core, apparently...

Which would have been a great opportunity to better explain what the human reaper was, and why it looked like a Terminator...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
I voted other, because Harbinger is such a large enemy and potent threat, that it shouldn't be a "boss battle", but a series of interlinked missions in and of itself. Almost like the Suici9de Mission/Collector Base assault in ME2.

I could see it playing out along these lines:

Use Normandy to fly in close to Harbinger's hull, then shuttle down and land on the actual hull itself (think magboots on the Citadel tower in ME1).

Fight your way across Harbinger's hull, battling Collectors as you go until you reach an access point (Shadow Broker base in ME2)

Board Harbinger, and work your way to his central core while fighting off waves of Collectors and assigning squadmates to complete certain tasks (Suicide Mission, ME2). As you progress, you encounter dialogues with Harbinger which lead to indoctrination effects/hallucinations (think, Scarecrow Arkham Asylum/Eternal Darkness)

On reaching the core, you need to prime a series of dark matter charges while defending yourself from Collectors and Harbinger's core itself. As you prime the charges, Harbinger assumes control of your squadmates, and you fight them as well. Once the charges are primed and the core temporarily shut down, you can choose to use lethal force (less difficult), non-lethal force (more difficult) or talk them down (subject to relationship, influence and persuasion levels).

Then you have a free-running style escape sequence, as you race the clock and waves of enemies to the extraction point before the charges blow.

Throw in a few tough decisions, like having to make a choice between saving a squadmate and protectingt one of the charges, or having to leave someone behind to guard them (think Virmire), or potentially even staying behind yourself so your squadmates manage to escape, and you're golden.


social.bioware.com/social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12423268/4#12635384

Seven Months ago, Bill Casey wrote...

Thirteen stage Harbinger boss fight...

1. Opening verbal confrontation.
2. Normandy assault.
3. Shuttle turret suppressive fire.
4. Waves of enemies and dodging blasts before M-90 Cains are dropped.
5. Climbing and ripping through with an omni-blade while fighting off husks.
6. Entering Harbinger and war of words.
7.
Fighting waves of reapers and Cerberus remnants while traversing the
interior. Harbinger assumes direct control of any Marauder Shields.
8. Fighting off illusions.
9. Incapacitate indoctrinated team mates.
10. Final war of words with Harbinger's core.
11. Defeat Harbinger's core.
12. Escape Harbinger. You have enough time to carry one team mate out.
13. Spend the next eighteen months in a hospital bed.

:whistle:

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:36 .


#485
Leonardo the Magnificent

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I think Harbinger *is* the core. Leviathan are much larger than normal species. Surely the core made from them would be, too. The line that all other Reapers were made in Harbinger's image also implies that Harbinger doesn't have a shell.

#486
Bill Casey

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Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

I think Harbinger *is* the core. Leviathan are much larger than normal species. Surely the core made from them would be, too. The line that all other Reapers were made in Harbinger's image also implies that Harbinger doesn't have a shell.

That's interesting...
I have nothing to add other than to say I enjoyed this post...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 07 janvier 2013 - 04:24 .


#487
RukiaKuchki

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Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

I think Harbinger *is* the core. Leviathan are much larger than normal species. Surely the core made from them would be, too. The line that all other Reapers were made in Harbinger's image also implies that Harbinger doesn't have a shell.


This is intersting... I think there was a lot more mileage in Harbinger's story, and a simple run-and-gun boss fight wouldn't do it justice. It needed exploration, perhaps culminating in a conversation with the big guy himself that involved Shephard fighting him with his mind and resolve rather than his gun. 

I think boss fights are a thing of the past. Just because other RPGs have them, it doesn't mean Bioware should insert them into ME unless, like others have posted, it is necesary to plot development and doesn't interrupt the flow of the game. I think the 'boss fight' on Rannoch was incredibly cheesy and totally forced. It did little to test your character's skills - you just rolled from side to side to avoid trouble. The key part was the conversation at the end. And Kai Leng... I have to admit it, the only thing in ME3 that I think was a total mistake. Bioware can do boss fights - the two in LotSB are, in my opinion, the best and most exciting in the trilogy, but they are not forced and they are not cheesy. But boss fights are not what they do best, certainly not in the context of ME.

Modifié par RukiaKuchki, 07 janvier 2013 - 07:38 .


#488
thefallen2far

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ZLurps wrote...

1). I know lot of people wanted to destroy Harbinger. As it is, your
option would require revamping EC. If we had something to distract
Harbinger in the final run to beam sequence, we would get some sort of
reason why it didn't blasted Normandy & co. to hell when they were
standing right under it's nose.

2). Something like that was
speculated on forums before people knew about the Crusible at all. BW
didn't took that route and I don't think they are going to do that after
EC.

3). BW tried to implement this, but it was dropped because
of technical reasons. Then what is TIM controlling Shepard and Anderson
but acting as proxy for Reapers?

4). I fail to see how Catalyst survival would be dependant of a hologram.

5). Those who started with ME3 wouldn't have any idea what VS is.

6, 7, 8). Now you are just venting, aren't you?


Okay.....

I'm just stating options for end bosses based on past experiences.  A boss fight is in most games because it gives the game a sense of conclusion.  A sense that you accomplished something, which for the most part is noticeable in its absense.  It was the main flaw I had with Uncharted 3.... I didn't know I'd finished the game until I saw the credits.  Keep in mind, I'm just objectively stating my personal experience, the whole Catalyst/Crucible/RBG/Ghost kid thing is so ridiculously stupid to me, I'm just never going to accept it.  I understand a writer's desire for constructive criticism, but it'd be easier for me to justify fascism than those elements of the game.  I just don't like "space magic", badly rendered battle stratagy in a war game and non sequitors.  So I'm not asking for a tack on of Boss Battle to the game, I'm just stating endings that would have worked better off the top of my head.  The ending is already a baren wasteland of nonsense.... best to move on.

1. Or.... maybe.... you defeat Harbinger.... which is the beginning of the turn for the war.   Who cares?  You set up a villain in 2, but you never fight that villain is anticlimactic.
2. And the game is worse for it.
3. I don't think scientific logic of the universe was considered very much in the planning in the first place.  The whole ghost kid thing is so bad it made me look back at the Matrix's Architect scene with fondness.  That said, TiM could try to indoctrinate you or, after he died, the Reapers would do the Reaping.
4 Does it matter?  If it's awesome and entertaining, the brain will make
it make sense.  If it's annoying or badly made.... obviously we'll
complaing about it for going on 10 months now.
5. So?  They don't know who Wrex is, Morlun is, Legion is, Liara... Tali.... no one knows anyone before they experience a story.  They're introduced, their story is overviewed, then you fight.  Like the kid, I didn't know who the kid was, I didn't care who the kid was, I was hoping it was Indoctrinated Theory the whole way through, that would've made me care.... but effectively, it was Anikin Skywalker from Phantom Menace annoying.
6. It's a staple in gaming, which couldn've been used to great effect.
7.  No, I would've prefered it.
8 Teen Titans Go.  They broke the 4th Wall at the end and talked to the player directly accusing them of controlling them through the whole game.  It wasn't that good a game, but I loved that ending for its attempt at trolling the gamer.  It was light hearted and I got respect for the for doing it.

Modifié par thefallen2far, 07 janvier 2013 - 08:19 .


#489
ioannisdenton

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ME859 wrote...

Boss Fights are EPIC if they're done right.

GOD OF WAR 3 | Kratos VS Cronos

yeap. I know i am in the minority but Deus ex Yelena boss had  a great concept. Hide evade and hit when not seen.

Basicaly a boss fight is BEST when the boss it self is not a bullet sponge but requires some thought or tactics.

Oh Come on Bioware has done it before:
Great boss battles that require positioning and some minor strategies
Positioning which Mass effect 3 FORGOT completely.
You never have to position your squadies in Me3.
this is SO bad.
In Dragon age Origins and In dragon age 2 you HAVE to position your companions.
Their Boss batlles like Dragons, MotA boss battle, Legacy boss battle were very well done.
And NO it is not that ME is a shooter and Dragon age is a melee game. Positioning is positioning.
Even the ME2 battle had a least amount of positioning.

Let me recap: A Hrbinger boss Battle in Me which has some strategies AND some positioning would be a blast.
You could even board Harbinger and blast his Eezo core. there could be hordes of husks inside. Even a saren halucination due to indoctrination attempts.
Hell i am not even a writer ...

#490
Galbrant

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Mr. Freeze in Batman Arkham City would fit the bill nicely then I had a blast trying to figure out how to take him down.

#491
ioannisdenton

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Galbrant wrote...

Mr. Freeze in Batman Arkham City would fit the bill nicely then I had a blast trying to figure out how to take him down.

See ? to all those who say Bosses suck there are lots of creative ways to make proper boss fights and not just bullet sponges.

#492
ZLurps

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thefallen2far wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

1). I know lot of people wanted to destroy Harbinger. As it is, your option would require revamping EC. If we had something to distract Harbinger in the final run to beam sequence, we would get some sort of reason why it didn't blasted Normandy & co. to hell when they were standing right under it's nose.

2). Something like that was speculated on forums before people knew about the Crusible at all. BW didn't took that route and I don't think they are going to do that after EC.

3). BW tried to implement this, but it was dropped because of technical reasons. Then what is TIM controlling Shepard and Anderson but acting as proxy for Reapers?

4). I fail to see how Catalyst survival would be dependant of a hologram.

5). Those who started with ME3 wouldn't have any idea what VS is.

6, 7, 8). Now you are just venting, aren't you?


Okay.....

I'm just stating options for end bosses based on past experiences.  A boss fight is in most games because it gives the game a sense of conclusion.  A sense that you accomplished something, which for the most part is noticeable in its absense.  It was the main flaw I had with Uncharted 3.... I didn't know I'd finished the game until I saw the credits.  Keep in mind, I'm just objectively stating my personal experience, the whole Catalyst/Crucible/RBG/Ghost kid thing is so ridiculously stupid to me, I'm just never going to accept it.  I understand a writer's desire for constructive criticism, but it'd be easier for me to justify fascism than those elements of the game.  I just don't like "space magic", badly rendered battle stratagy in a war game and non sequitors.  So I'm not asking for a tack on of Boss Battle to the game, I'm just stating endings that would have worked better off the top of my head.  The ending is already a baren wasteland of nonsense.... best to move on.

1. Or.... maybe.... you defeat Harbinger.... which is the beginning of the turn for the war.   Who cares?  You set up a villain in 2, but you never fight that villain is anticlimactic.
2. And the game is worse for it.
3. I don't think scientific logic of the universe was considered very much in the planning in the first place.  The whole ghost kid thing is so bad it made me look back at the Matrix's Architect scene with fondness.  That said, TiM could try to indoctrinate you or, after he died, the Reapers would do the Reaping.
4 Does it matter?  If it's awesome and entertaining, the brain will make
it make sense.  If it's annoying or badly made.... obviously we'll
complaing about it for going on 10 months now.
5. So?  They don't know who Wrex is, Morlun is, Legion is, Liara... Tali.... no one knows anyone before they experience a story.  They're introduced, their story is overviewed, then you fight.  Like the kid, I didn't know who the kid was, I didn't care who the kid was, I was hoping it was Indoctrinated Theory the whole way through, that would've made me care.... but effectively, it was Anikin Skywalker from Phantom Menace annoying.
6. It's a staple in gaming, which couldn've been used to great effect.
7.  No, I would've prefered it.
8 Teen Titans Go.  They broke the 4th Wall at the end and talked to the player directly accusing them of controlling them through the whole game.  It wasn't that good a game, but I loved that ending for its attempt at trolling the gamer.  It was light hearted and I got respect for the for doing it.


1). I can understand why people expect to fight Harbinger. The Collectors didn't had much depth in ME2 and so Harbinger, stole the show with it's taunts. Then, to make it work so it doesn't make game feeling even worse is the problem. You don't care about that aspect, and that's fine, but not everyone shares your view.

2). It is like it is, and it won't change. I for one pondered about ending where we would not ultimately destroy the Reapers but "thing" found on extremely hazardous mission to Citadel counter part in the Dark space.
This "thing" would cause problems with Reaper shields. They would still win because of their numbers but choose to retreat back in the Dark space, because "they are each a nation" they want to preserve what they have reaped.
BioWare has said they won't make anymore changes to content covered by EC. We can keep wanting Crusible to do whatever we please, but it's not going to happen.

3). Abandoning internal logic of the universe contributes a lot in to what lead us into this mess in the first place. I have my own groteque Star Kid jokes, they are kind of therapeuthic, but for real, I don't think it would cut for many of us.

4). Same as above.

5). We have time to get to know about Wrex, and other characters, there are codex entries and so. Inroducing someone in the very last minutes of game doesn't work the same way. What comes us not knowing the kid, we don't get to know what his name is for example, but we see this kid in the beginning of game, thin in three nightmare sequences. VS wouldn't work the same way, there is no build up for VS. Now we know, "ah, it appears like that kid from my nightmares", with VS it would be just "WTF?"'

6). Somehow I don't actually recall a game where you fight version of yourself. Don't say that hasn't happened, but staple? Could had somehow worked with indoctrination, though.

7). That's ok, I agree to disagree.

8). We are looking very different things from ending, so same as above.

Modifié par ZLurps, 07 janvier 2013 - 12:36 .


#493
ElSuperGecko

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Bill Casey wrote...
:whistle:


Good to see we're on the same page Bill!  I honestly thought the Derelict Reaper Reaper mission in ME2 was a small taste, a preview of what was to come... Image IPB

#494
Guest_vivaladricas_*

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
:whistle:


Good to see we're on the same page Bill!  I honestly thought the Derelict Reaper Reaper mission in ME2 was a small taste, a preview of what was to come... Image IPB


You know what is SAD.  I honestly didn't know I was on a reaper till I was checking a video a couple days ago.  I really don't give much attention to game storylines for some reason.  I get freaking oblivious.  LMAO. 

I get the gist usually, but when people recall so much lore I am like "Really?  That happened"  I am in a haste to PEW PEW PEW I guess. 

Modifié par vivaladricas, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:11 .


#495
Grubas

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ElSuperGecko wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
:whistle:


Good to see we're on the same page Bill!  I honestly thought the Derelict Reaper Reaper mission in ME2 was a small taste, a preview of what was to come... Image IPB


Yap a level inside the reaper + a level inside the mind (do the harvested continue to exist inside a collective, or is there just one abomination.)

If we just could diminish Cerberus role to a minimum. This reminds me just of this, that cerberus is the typical villain, known from most shooters, and therefore is aiming at the ever wider audience of casuals... sigh.

Modifié par Grubas, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:11 .


#496
ZLurps

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Grubas wrote...

If we just could diminish Cerberus role to a minimum. This reminds me just of this, that cerberus is the typical villain, known from most shooters, and therefore is aiming at the ever wider audience of casuals... sigh.


Yet first enemies we encounter are Reaper husks and Cannibals.

I weren't happy about how huge role Cerberus had in ME3 either, but maybe there was other motive behind that than appealing to casuals. Some sort of idea how we are after all our own worst enemies perhaps?. On combat side they are easy only because we don't encounter many Phantoms in SP campaign.

Modifié par ZLurps, 07 janvier 2013 - 02:12 .


#497
draconian139

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Well Priestly is obviously back, this is still stickied, and not locked. Maybe a hint about what's to come?

#498
Lazengan

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draconian139 wrote...

Well Priestly is obviously back, this is still stickied, and not locked. Maybe a hint about what's to come?


why would this thread be locked, I am giving constructive criticism 

#499
Grubas

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ZLurps wrote...

Grubas wrote...

If we just could diminish Cerberus role to a minimum. This reminds me just of this, that cerberus is the typical villain, known from most shooters, and therefore is aiming at the ever wider audience of casuals... sigh.


Yet first enemies we encounter are Reaper husks and Cannibals.

I weren't happy about how huge role Cerberus had in ME3 either, but maybe there was other motive behind that than appealing to casuals. Some sort of idea how we are after all our own worst enemies perhaps?. On combat side they are easy only because we don't encounter many Phantoms in SP campaign.



Are you going with art and a deeper meaning? Please dont. Just... Actually.
Why dont you start a "Deeper meaning Thread" that will double and triple interpret every storytwist and every obvious plothole for a deeper meaning. 

And then, when you cease to be usefull, BÄM! They close your 9000 pages thread and urges you not to restart it. Happy New Year everyone.. Chriss is back!

Modifié par Grubas, 07 janvier 2013 - 06:07 .


#500
MaximizedAction

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Lazengan wrote...

draconian139 wrote...

Well Priestly is obviously back, this is still stickied, and not locked. Maybe a hint about what's to come?


why would this thread be locked, I am giving constructive criticism 


I think drac isn't talking about a lockdown, but that this thread recently got an "announcement" symbol and hasn't yet been removed as it looked like an accident (the IT thread also got stickied once by accident which was later on removed again).

So the confusement comes from this thread still having an odd marker and the IT thread dead. Times seem like a-changin.