512 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

squee365 wrote...

Shadow of The Colossus was a game of nothing but exploration and boss fights, and it didn't feel "video gamey"
Dark/Demon Souls big moments are boss fights and they're extremely rewarding and emotional at times.
Metal Gear Solid 4's best moment was its final boss fight, it wrapped up the series perfectly, in a BOSS FIGHT.
The First Mass Effect has one of my favorite boss fights of all time.

Boss Fights are what separate the great games from the good games. ME3 was short of Great for many reasons, including lack of a boss fight. Bioware doesn't understand what makes good games anymore. They're strictly focused on giving "experiences", not necessarily "gaming experiences". Its unfortunate, but they've made it clear they're not in it for making good video games anymore.

Bioware has stated from day one they create stories the gameplay aspect is just a method for telling those stories.

I also very much disagree with your principle of great game needs a boss fight, to me a final boss fight does not make a great game and often takes a great game and makes it worse.

[squee365]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Shadow of The Colossus was a game of nothing but exploration and boss fights, and it didn't feel "video gamey"
Dark/Demon Souls big moments are boss fights and they're extremely rewarding and emotional at times.
Metal Gear Solid 4's best moment was its final boss fight, it wrapped up the series perfectly, in a BOSS FIGHT.
The First Mass Effect has one of my favorite boss fights of all time.

Boss Fights are what separate the great games from the good games. ME3 was short of Great for many reasons, including lack of a boss fight. Bioware doesn't understand what makes good games anymore. They're strictly focused on giving "experiences", not necessarily "gaming experiences". Its unfortunate, but they've made it clear they're not in it for making good video games anymore.

Bioware has stated from day one they create stories the gameplay aspect is just a method for telling those stories.

I also very much disagree with your principle of great game needs a boss fight, to me a final boss fight does not make a great game and often takes a great game and makes it worse.

I find that the best games have great boss fights. Just my opinion. I'm just curious to what you consider to be a great game, and I'm curious if that game doesn't have a great boss fight/huge challenge at the end. 

[Dean_the_Young]

squee365 wrote...

Shadow of The Colossus was a game of nothing but exploration and boss fights, and it didn't feel "video gamey"
Dark/Demon Souls big moments are boss fights and they're extremely rewarding and emotional at times.
Metal Gear Solid 4's best moment was its final boss fight, it wrapped up the series perfectly, in a BOSS FIGHT.
The First Mass Effect has one of my favorite boss fights of all time.

Boss Fights are what separate the great games from the good games. ME3 was short of Great for many reasons, including lack of a boss fight. Bioware doesn't understand what makes good games anymore. They're strictly focused on giving "experiences", not necessarily "gaming experiences". Its unfortunate, but they've made it clear they're not in it for making good video games anymore.

While that's good for you... do you at least recognize that your views are not shared by other players, and that many of the games you cite are contradictory in style and manner?

I really don't think you understand what Bioware's position was in the matter: it wasn't even a point on boss fights in general, but rather a specific context. Are you really going to counter-argue the point that there are times and ways in which a boss fight would be a bad idea in terms of furthering a game?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:23 .

[Grubas]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's not like a boss fight for the sake of a boss fight worked well for DA2, either. Between Mereidith and Orisino, the Terminator, and Geth-Hopper-Abuse-Broken-Biotics Saren, Bioware certainly got criticism for some of its more recent boss fights.

Shadow broker Boss was decent. Also what you usually do when your work gets criticised? You improve!
Gaming history is full of epic boss fights, and they had to copy pasta content from Deus EX. 

The ending feels rushed, so is it to much to assume that the videogamey bossfight has been scrapped for other reasons?

Modifié par Grubas, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:29 .

[Mr.House]

Well hey, if the ME team could make a good final boss no one would have complained but of course. Instead of improving Bioiware get's rid of and then makes a lame excuse

[Someone With Mass]

They have kind of a severe double standard in that way, considering that Kai Lame's fights could be best described as "too video-gamey". And stupid. And unnecessary.

In fact, throw away Saren 2.0, since that loser has nothing new to come up with and give me something to have a battle against instead. Like Harbinger. You know, the actual antagonist who's actually relevant to the fight at hand.

Make the war assets involving fleet technology and numbers matter and focus on the fleet placements to bring him down or something.

A boss fight can be very intriguing if you have interesting concepts (like Shadow of the Colossus), or it can be as boring as Kai Lame's fights.

[Dragoonlordz]

squee365 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Shadow of The Colossus was a game of nothing but exploration and boss fights, and it didn't feel "video gamey"
Dark/Demon Souls big moments are boss fights and they're extremely rewarding and emotional at times.
Metal Gear Solid 4's best moment was its final boss fight, it wrapped up the series perfectly, in a BOSS FIGHT.
The First Mass Effect has one of my favorite boss fights of all time.

Boss Fights are what separate the great games from the good games. ME3 was short of Great for many reasons, including lack of a boss fight. Bioware doesn't understand what makes good games anymore. They're strictly focused on giving "experiences", not necessarily "gaming experiences". Its unfortunate, but they've made it clear they're not in it for making good video games anymore.

Bioware has stated from day one they create stories the gameplay aspect is just a method for telling those stories.

I also very much disagree with your principle of great game needs a boss fight, to me a final boss fight does not make a great game and often takes a great game and makes it worse.

I find that the best games have great boss fights. Just my opinion. I'm just curious to what you consider to be a great game, and I'm curious if that game doesn't have a great boss fight/huge challenge at the end. 

I'll give example for instance I love adventure games (point and click type ones which hardly ever have final boss fights), but does not make them worse games, if anything having a boss fight in them would make them worse. There are many methods for telling stories, some have boss fights and some do not but having a boss fight does not make those games to me good. It depends on the plot and situation.

In terms of ME3 a final boss fight would have made it far worse because like said previously the scale of conflict does not suit a pew pew match with any other character to me. I dislike any war (specifically and especially galactic war) type game that is won by killing some dude and apparently everyone else is supposed to stop fighting or killing because that dude is dead it rubs me up the wrong way. The way won the war in ME3 was using the crucible which spent entire game building not chatting to the catalyst. In a boxing match or chess game beating the other dude equals win, but in a war beating one dude is lackluster way to conclude the fight. So I wanted something different for ME3 and while not perfect it did give me a different method to reach the conclusion.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:34 .

[squee365]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Shadow of The Colossus was a game of nothing but exploration and boss fights, and it didn't feel "video gamey"
Dark/Demon Souls big moments are boss fights and they're extremely rewarding and emotional at times.
Metal Gear Solid 4's best moment was its final boss fight, it wrapped up the series perfectly, in a BOSS FIGHT.
The First Mass Effect has one of my favorite boss fights of all time.

Boss Fights are what separate the great games from the good games. ME3 was short of Great for many reasons, including lack of a boss fight. Bioware doesn't understand what makes good games anymore. They're strictly focused on giving "experiences", not necessarily "gaming experiences". Its unfortunate, but they've made it clear they're not in it for making good video games anymore.

While that's good for you... do you at least recognize that your views are not shared by other players, and that many of the games you cite are contradictory in style and manner?

I really don't think you understand what Bioware's position was in the matter: it wasn't even a point on boss fights in general, but rather a specific context. Are you really going to counter-argue the point that there are times and ways in which a boss fight would be a bad idea in terms of furthering a game?

I feel you missed my point completely. I'm saying bioware doesn't seem interested in making gaming experiences as much as they are just interested in making "experiences". 

[ZLurps]

Fnork wrote...

I think there just needs to be some kind of climax towards the end of a game. A boss fight fits that bill well but I'm open to other options. But between all the heroic limping, Tim's hissy fit and he who shall not be named and his color coded platform it didn't feel like much of a climax at all.

I think the big problem here is pace of game. Think of 3 missions before Priority Earth.

On Thessia we are defeated in a (boss fight) quick time event. We don't get to kick ass there.
On Sanctuary we face something really horrible, it's great mission but very dark, we get rid of Miranda's dad but we don't get to really kick ass there.
On Cronos station, it starts well but then it's relatively empty and then we get boss fight, just that we don't get rid of something that presents great villain, but irritating game play element. In the end of mission we get another shock, Reapers took over the Citadel, so much for your Citadel defence force.

This all sets huge expectations towards Priority: Earth, that again opens well but then starts dragging because there are too much good byes and too little kicking ass. Missions are too short, Shepard's squad is bit too isolated from what's happening, etc.

The thing is, I don't see how boss fight would improve it. Expanding Priority: Earth would work, but boss fight agains Harbinger... Last time I played through I started laughing when instead of blowing primites to pieces Harbinger was sitting there Normandy, Shepard and co. right under it's nose.

What comes to TIM, I don't see how making him bullet sponge would improve anything either. TIM scene is perhaps bit long and I wonder if ending TIM's story arch on Cronos and going to something more surreal on Citadel might have worked better.

Modifié par ZLurps, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:35 .

[Mr.House]

ZLurps wrote...

Fnork wrote...

I think there just needs to be some kind of climax towards the end of a game. A boss fight fits that bill well but I'm open to other options. But between all the heroic limping, Tim's hissy fit and he who shall not be named and his color coded platform it didn't feel like much of a climax at all.

I think the big problem here is pace of game. Think of 3 missions before Priority Earth.

On Thessia we are defeated in a (boss fight) quick time event. We don't get to kick ass there.
On Sanctuary we face something really horrible, it's great mission but very dark, we get rid of Miranda's dad but we don't get to really kick ass there.
On Cronos station, it's open well but then it's relatively empty and then we get boss fight, just that we don't get rid of something that presents great villain, but irritating game play element. In the end of mission we get another shock, Reapers took over the Citadel, so much for your Citadel defence force.

This all sets huge expectations towards Priority: Earth, that again opens well but then starts dragging because there are too much good byes and too little kicking ass. Missions are too short, Shepard's squad is bit too isolated from what's happening, etc.

The thing is, I don't see how boss fight would improve it. Expanding Priority: Earth would work, but boss fight agains Harbinger... Last time I played through I started laughing when instead of blowing primites to pieces Harbinger was sitting there Normandy, Shepard and co. right under it's nose.

What comes to TIM, I don't see how making him bullet sponge would improve anything either. TIM scene is perhaps bit long and I wonder if ending TIM's story arch on Cronos and going to something more surreal on Citadel might have worked better.

Um...the good byes are the only good thing about Earth....

[squee365]

Dragoonlordz wrote...


In terms of ME3 a final boss fight would have made it far worse because like said previously the scale of conflict does not suit a pew pew match with any other character to me..

Well then perhaps bioware is at fault for not making a challenge at the end fit with the narrative. That is possible. I feel the end of ME3 is just...without any challenge or reward and I'm speaking much further than a "boss fight". Saying the end is anticlimatic is an understatement. 

Modifié par squee365, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Grubas wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's not like a boss fight for the sake of a boss fight worked well for DA2, either. Between Mereidith and Orisino, the Terminator, and Geth-Hopper-Abuse-Broken-Biotics Saren, Bioware certainly got criticism for some of its more recent boss fights.[/quote]

Shadow broker Boss was decent. Also what you usually do when your work gets criticised? You improve!
Gaming history is full of epic boss fights, and they had to copy pasta content from Deus EX. [/quote]Yeah... but look at the people in this same thread who are criticizing the boss fights they did give, two of them, in Kai Leng. Kai Leng, who unlike The Illusive Man is an established character with combat skills, for whom a boss fight would make narrative sense, and whose fights were heavily influenced by the Shadow Broker fights (especially Tela Vasir)... and yet people dismiss it entirely. So why should a TIM fight have been any more successful in winning adoration?

[quote]
The ending feels rushed, so is it to much to assume that the videogamey bossfight has been scrapped for other reasons?[/quote]In this case, yes. Unlike in many cases when they don't give reasons at all, but from which context must be inferred or speculated, they give us a pretty direct reason... and it's not one which more time would have 'fixed'. It's also a position which is reflected in a different piece of official material (the art book), in which the TIM-Boss design is commented on and dismissed because it was deemed too uncharacteristic for TIM as an antagonist.


[/quote]

[ZLurps]

Mr.House wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Fnork wrote...

I think there just needs to be some kind of climax towards the end of a game. A boss fight fits that bill well but I'm open to other options. But between all the heroic limping, Tim's hissy fit and he who shall not be named and his color coded platform it didn't feel like much of a climax at all.

I think the big problem here is pace of game. Think of 3 missions before Priority Earth.

On Thessia we are defeated in a (boss fight) quick time event. We don't get to kick ass there.
On Sanctuary we face something really horrible, it's great mission but very dark, we get rid of Miranda's dad but we don't get to really kick ass there.
On Cronos station, it's open well but then it's relatively empty and then we get boss fight, just that we don't get rid of something that presents great villain, but irritating game play element. In the end of mission we get another shock, Reapers took over the Citadel, so much for your Citadel defence force.

This all sets huge expectations towards Priority: Earth, that again opens well but then starts dragging because there are too much good byes and too little kicking ass. Missions are too short, Shepard's squad is bit too isolated from what's happening, etc.

The thing is, I don't see how boss fight would improve it. Expanding Priority: Earth would work, but boss fight agains Harbinger... Last time I played through I started laughing when instead of blowing primites to pieces Harbinger was sitting there Normandy, Shepard and co. right under it's nose.

What comes to TIM, I don't see how making him bullet sponge would improve anything either. TIM scene is perhaps bit long and I wonder if ending TIM's story arch on Cronos and going to something more surreal on Citadel might have worked better.

Um...the good byes are the only good thing about Earth....

I agree to disagree, on my last playthrough I skipped communication device entirely, I skipped some of the background chatter as well. Still I got to chat with Vega, Garrus, Turian General, Liara, Javik, Wrex, Tali and EDI. Even I skipped just some of the content, I found Earth somewhat better experience than before, after all, I came on Eath to kick ass, not to talk crap.

Modifié par ZLurps, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:41 .

[squee365]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In this case, yes. Unlike in many cases when they don't give reasons at all, but from which context must be inferred or speculated, they give us a pretty direct reason... and it's not one which more time would have 'fixed'. It's also a position which is reflected in a different piece of official material (the art book), in which the TIM-Boss design is commented on and dismissed because it was deemed too uncharacteristic for TIM as an antagonist.

It totally is uncharacteristic of TIM. I'm not saying have the idea they had, I'm saying there should have been some sort of climatic moment where the player had to put some serious heart and soul into the end. Instead we just get 3 choices, a chat with TIM, and a really boring walk segment. 

They could've changed the writing to make it more climatic and still have the same ending they wanted. It was a matter of setpieces. 

Modifié par squee365, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:43 .

[Dean_the_Young]

squee365 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Shadow of The Colossus was a game of nothing but exploration and boss fights, and it didn't feel "video gamey"
Dark/Demon Souls big moments are boss fights and they're extremely rewarding and emotional at times.
Metal Gear Solid 4's best moment was its final boss fight, it wrapped up the series perfectly, in a BOSS FIGHT.
The First Mass Effect has one of my favorite boss fights of all time.

Boss Fights are what separate the great games from the good games. ME3 was short of Great for many reasons, including lack of a boss fight. Bioware doesn't understand what makes good games anymore. They're strictly focused on giving "experiences", not necessarily "gaming experiences". Its unfortunate, but they've made it clear they're not in it for making good video games anymore.

While that's good for you... do you at least recognize that your views are not shared by other players, and that many of the games you cite are contradictory in style and manner?

I really don't think you understand what Bioware's position was in the matter: it wasn't even a point on boss fights in general, but rather a specific context. Are you really going to counter-argue the point that there are times and ways in which a boss fight would be a bad idea in terms of furthering a game?

I feel you missed my point completely. I'm saying bioware doesn't seem interested in making gaming experiences as much as they are just interested in making "experiences". 

I saw it, I just didn't see anything to back it up. Your very argument ignores that Mass Effect 3 did, in fact, have a boss fight. Two of them, in fact. So whatever problems it has, saying that a lack of boss fights is one of them is either ignorant or actively dishonest. After which part... well, what else makes a game? Combat? Bioware's been criticized for having too much, not too little. Story? It's there, with a lot of points that most people will concede were strong even if it didn't outweigh whatever they didn't like.

[squee365]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Shadow of The Colossus was a game of nothing but exploration and boss fights, and it didn't feel "video gamey"
Dark/Demon Souls big moments are boss fights and they're extremely rewarding and emotional at times.
Metal Gear Solid 4's best moment was its final boss fight, it wrapped up the series perfectly, in a BOSS FIGHT.
The First Mass Effect has one of my favorite boss fights of all time.

Boss Fights are what separate the great games from the good games. ME3 was short of Great for many reasons, including lack of a boss fight. Bioware doesn't understand what makes good games anymore. They're strictly focused on giving "experiences", not necessarily "gaming experiences". Its unfortunate, but they've made it clear they're not in it for making good video games anymore.

While that's good for you... do you at least recognize that your views are not shared by other players, and that many of the games you cite are contradictory in style and manner?

I really don't think you understand what Bioware's position was in the matter: it wasn't even a point on boss fights in general, but rather a specific context. Are you really going to counter-argue the point that there are times and ways in which a boss fight would be a bad idea in terms of furthering a game?

I feel you missed my point completely. I'm saying bioware doesn't seem interested in making gaming experiences as much as they are just interested in making "experiences". 

I saw it, I just didn't see anything to back it up. Your very argument ignores that Mass Effect 3 did, in fact, have a boss fight. Two of them, in fact. So whatever problems it has, saying that a lack of boss fights is one of them is either ignorant or actively dishonest. After which part... well, what else makes a game? Combat? Bioware's been criticized for having too much, not too little. Story? It's there, with a lot of points that most people will concede were strong even if it didn't outweigh whatever they didn't like.

Saying a boss fight is too "videogamey" backs up my point completely. They're obviously not interested in making video games if they're associating the term 'videogame' negatively. Its ptetty simple. 

Also I was refering to a FINAL boss fight. Something that happens just before the end. Just as bioware refered to. 

Modifié par squee365, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:50 .

[Mr.House]

Fun fact: Reapers don't have shields up when they are on the surface of a planet. Harbinger was at the beam by himself. Why no massive fight against him that was long, had many phases and went from on foot parts to vehicle parts? Wasted potential. TIM fight was stupid, but making a fight against Harbinger would not have been hard if done well, while also fitting the story and would have made the character have a true role in the game.

[Dragoonlordz]

squee365 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...


In terms of ME3 a final boss fight would have made it far worse because like said previously the scale of conflict does not suit a pew pew match with any other character to me..

Well then perhaps bioware is at fault for not making a challenge at the end fit with the narrative. That is possible. I feel the end of ME3 is just...without any challenge or reward and I'm speaking much further than a "boss fight". Saying the end is anticlimatic is an understatement. 

The ending was not anti-climatic for me without a boss fight. It would of been annoying with one to me. The only flaw I felt with regard to climax on the end was would of enjoyed more battle scenes of the war raging outside. However those scenes should not for me be allies winning the war, it should always be braveheart moments of seeing the people you care about fighting to the end bravely but ultimately futile and heroic but emotional due to loss to fit in with my perception of the theme to this specific game. The theme of being unstoppable force the galaxy did not prepare for over period of trilogy, unprepared for their arrival shown at the start of the game too and their last ditched effort to make a difference aka save as many lives as could even though loss was almost a certainty. The need for sacrifice when the scale of the war was so vast and the toll on the character and companions through it all.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:54 .

[squee365]

Mr.House wrote...

Fun fact: Reapers don't have shields up when they are on the surface of a planet. Harbinger was at the beam by himself. Why no massive fight against him that was long, had many phases and went from on foot parts to vehicle parts? Wasted potential. TIM fight was stupid, but making a fight against Harbinger would not have been hard if done well, while also fitting the story and would have made the character have a true role in the game.

My thoughts exactly. Missed potential is the point here. 

[Dean_the_Young]

squee365 wrote...

Saying a boss fight is too "videogamey" backs up my point completely. They're obviously not interested in making video games if they're associating the term 'videogame' negatively. Its ptetty simple. 

Sure it is: it's also wrong, because you're taking half a sentence out of context, and assigning a view to them that the full quote doesn't represent. Both of those, selective quoting and strawmanning, are logical errors.

Also I was refering to a FINAL boss fight. Something that happens just before the end. Just as bioware refered to. 

Except, they weren't. They were were talking about how specific boss fights don't always work, but the point applies regardless of the place in the narrative.

[squee365]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Saying a boss fight is too "videogamey" backs up my point completely. They're obviously not interested in making video games if they're associating the term 'videogame' negatively. Its ptetty simple. 

Sure it is: it's also wrong, because you're taking half a sentence out of context, and assigning a view to them that the full quote doesn't represent. Both of those, selective quoting and strawmanning, are logical errors.

Also I was refering to a FINAL boss fight. Something that happens just before the end. Just as bioware refered to. 

Except, they weren't. They were were talking about how specific boss fights don't always work, but the point applies regardless of the place in the narrative.

Then we're obviously not talking on the same page here. My apologies. I was talking about final boss fights and how they can better a games climax, usually. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Mr.House wrote...

Fun fact: Reapers don't have shields up when they are on the surface of a planet.

Incorrect. Their shields are weakened, but still present. We also see in the opening tutorial that the shields are still considerable.

[Dean_the_Young]

squee365 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Saying a boss fight is too "videogamey" backs up my point completely. They're obviously not interested in making video games if they're associating the term 'videogame' negatively. Its ptetty simple. 

Sure it is: it's also wrong, because you're taking half a sentence out of context, and assigning a view to them that the full quote doesn't represent. Both of those, selective quoting and strawmanning, are logical errors.

Also I was refering to a FINAL boss fight. Something that happens just before the end. Just as bioware refered to. 

Except, they weren't. They were were talking about how specific boss fights don't always work, but the point applies regardless of the place in the narrative.

Then we're obviously not talking on the same page here. My apologies. I was talking about final boss fights and how they can better a games climax, usually. 

And Bioware was talking about how shoving a boss fight onto a character it doesn't fit just to have a boss fight doesn't make a game better.

It's fine to disagree, but you shouldn't claim they're saying something they aren't and then use that claim to justify a bad opinion of them.

[Someone With Mass]

Mr.House wrote...
Um...the good byes are the only good thing about Earth.... 

Indeed, and even that felt a little lacking in my opinion.

The rest of the mission was just: Shoot your way through buildings ---> Reach a very obnoxious AA-cannon and kill it with Cains conveniently scattered around for just such an occasion ---> Shoot your way through more buildings ---> Reach a missile truck thing with a Reaper conveniently in front of it ---> Defend it until it's done preparing ---> Shove a couple of missiles down the Reaper's throat ---> You "win".

The Suicide Mission in ME2 felt much more rewarding. Mostly because there was a sense of a victory Shepard him/herself achieved at the end, but still.

[squee365]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Saying a boss fight is too "videogamey" backs up my point completely. They're obviously not interested in making video games if they're associating the term 'videogame' negatively. Its ptetty simple. 

Sure it is: it's also wrong, because you're taking half a sentence out of context, and assigning a view to them that the full quote doesn't represent. Both of those, selective quoting and strawmanning, are logical errors.

Also I was refering to a FINAL boss fight. Something that happens just before the end. Just as bioware refered to. 

Except, they weren't. They were were talking about how specific boss fights don't always work, but the point applies regardless of the place in the narrative.

Then we're obviously not talking on the same page here. My apologies. I was talking about final boss fights and how they can better a games climax, usually. 

And Bioware was talking about how shoving a boss fight onto a character it doesn't fit just to have a boss fight doesn't make a game better.

It's fine to disagree, but you shouldn't claim they're saying something they aren't and then use that claim to justify a bad opinion of them.

I'm saying they made a mistake by avoiding a good opportunity for a great final boss fight - Harbinger.