123 réponses à ce sujet

[Dhiro]

krul2k wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

I'm sure David Gaider wrote same-sex relationship because it would shock the fans not because he simply believes in fairness. <_< DA could have taken the ME route and appeals only to straight male audience but they didn't, and it has nothing to do with shock values.

I personally do not think the lack of s/s romances would deter gay people from actually playing the game. Romances are still just an (albeit important) side theme in bioware games after all. They're not the main attraction. If I were gay I wouldn't like ME1 or 2 any less than I do now for example. I probably have to be careful with the next statement but I think it's more that the USA is their biggest and most important market and they don't seem as open minded to gay relationships as some countries in Europe yet. Controversy offers free publicity but as we saw with ME3's ending, it can and most likely will also have negative consequences.

I feel that heterosexual people shouldn't make assumptions on what homosexual people would think about such matters.

On that "feeling" men shouldnt assume anything to do with womans rights or white men shouldnt concern
themselfs with black rights or assume anything to be wrong in either case  but hey im assuming you know that an i "feel" that you dont make assumptions on such matters

You have very little talent for playing with words.

I am not a woman. I can never truly understand their struggles outside an intellectual level. As such, I do my best not to assume I know what women think about the issues that affect them. I don't guess, I don't use my limited male knowledge. I ask them, because they know better, not I.

Women have their own voice, I have no right to pretend I speak for them. I am simply asking for the same courtesy.

[Dhiro]

krul2k wrote...

ive actually no got a talent for much, and i am very apt at not playing with words since i find it boring an childish.

What i say stands if itwasnt/isnt for ppl standing up an sometimes rightly assuming what others think or feel we be in a bigger mess than we are in, so dont go all high an mighty on someone just because they tried to assume something for the better.

Nope, sorry.

[Icesong]

We can guess the conditions of black holes in other galaxies, don't try to speculate the mind of another human though.

[Xewaka]

Icesong wrote...
We can guess the conditions of black holes in other galaxies, don't try to speculate the mind of another human though.

It is easier to do. After all, Black Holes are just physics.

Modifié par Xewaka, 03 janvier 2013 - 12:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

After including or planning to include S/S romances in all of their products, and publicly extolling the virtues of their inclusiveness, removing them in a future installment would not only be interpreted as a betrayal, but also a craven submission to reactionary interests.

Excuse me, that's how I would interpret it.

[Mistress9Nine]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

I personally do not think the lack of s/s romances would deter gay people from actually playing the game.

You would be wrong.

Is this one of your "I am the voice of LGBT" moments, cause in that case I'll just keep quiet so as to not undermine your authority. 

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 03 janvier 2013 - 12:40 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Robhuzz wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

I'm sure David Gaider wrote same-sex relationship because it would shock the fans not because he simply believes in fairness. <_< DA could have taken the ME route and appeals only to straight male audience but they didn't, and it has nothing to do with shock values.

I personally do not think the lack of s/s romances would deter gay people from actually playing the game. Romances are still just an (albeit important) side theme in bioware games after all. They're not the main attraction. If I were gay I wouldn't like ME1 or 2 any less than I do now for example. I probably have to be careful with the next statement but I think it's more that the USA is their biggest and most important market and they don't seem as open minded to gay relationships as some countries in Europe yet. Controversy offers free publicity but as we saw with ME3's ending, it can and most likely will also have negative consequences.

It just is. You weren't gay, so the way a game is being presented to you probably feel a bit different, at least on a subconscious level. Every game that involved romance in the mainstream are always between straight relationship. You have never been excluded from content or storyline that you can relate to or speak to you. I honestly don't mind games that contained straight relationship by default because I'm experiencing someone else's storyline. In roleplaying games where you can actually have choices and put in situations you want to project yourself into, not being able to engage in s/s content would affect my enjoyment of the game a lot. It's like that character is not mine; it's still someone else's story. That protagonist is a different person, not my avatar, and definitely not the storyline I want to tell with my character. ME 1 and 2 are not made with me in mine. I feel like I'm not wanted when playing it because the developers are making the game with very specific audience in mind, and those audience are not me. With that being said, even when knowing that the game is not being catered to me, I would still buy the game if they're good. DA has gay romance since the very first game, and the sales are very high. In other mediums, Batwoman is one of DC's high selling comic, Earth-2 with a gay protagonist is consistently in the top 5 selling comics each month, Young Avengers seem to be the one of the highest anticipating comics by many fans with 2 gay leads, tons of successful TV shows out there also featured gay characters. The issue is not about gay, it's about whether the medium containing such characters contained good content.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 03 janvier 2013 - 12:49 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

I personally do not think the lack of s/s romances would deter gay people from actually playing the game.

You would be wrong.

I'm gay and I'd still play the game but I'd feel incredibly pissed and betrayed and I'd write numerous angsty forum posts and angry letters to Mr. Gaider and co. Fortunately, this is completely out of the realm of reality anyway. 

RE: OP. My last LI blew up the chantry, killed innocent people and instigated a world war. But I guess the shock factor was simply that it was a gay relationship. But hey, I once made a thread requesting a brood mother romance and it was locked as spam. I guess Bioware is just too afraid to deviate from the mainstream... 

[Plaintiff]

Robhuzz wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

I'm sure David Gaider wrote same-sex relationship because it would shock the fans not because he simply believes in fairness. <_< DA could have taken the ME route and appeals only to straight male audience but they didn't, and it has nothing to do with shock values.

I personally do not think the lack of s/s romances would deter gay people from actually playing the game. Romances are still just an (albeit important) side theme in bioware games after all. They're not the main attraction. If I were gay I wouldn't like ME1 or 2 any less than I do now for example. I probably have to be careful with the next statement but I think it's more that the USA is their biggest and most important market and they don't seem as open minded to gay relationships as some countries in Europe yet. Controversy offers free publicity but as we saw with ME3's ending, it can and most likely will also have negative consequences.

I am a homosexual and I would absolutely be disappointed. I want to see increased and better representation of homsexuals and homosexuality in all media. The last thing I want is for Bioware or anyone else to take a step backwards, and I would probably interpret it the same way Upsettingshorts would; as a cowardly move. On a personal level, I appreciate the chance to express and explore my sexuality openly without fear of reprisal, which is something many gay people can't do in real life.

The lack of homosexual romance was in fact a major factor in my decision to hold off on checking out the Mass Effect trilogy (the other being that the first game simply wasn't available on PS3). If it had not been for the release of the Mass Effect Trilogy bundle, I would've likely passed on the series altogether.

I'm not straight, and can't say for sure if being straight would change my opinion on the issue. I like to think that if I was straight, I would still be concious of the general unfairness that LGBT individuals have to put up with everyday that I would not suffer. I like to think that I would still find the decision to cut same-sex content from the first two installments to be totally lame and uncool. As it is, I can say that the inclusion of same-sex romance is a major factor in my enjoyment of ME3, and that I like ME1 and 2 far less compared to it (though not just for this reason).

Some gay people may not be detered by the removal of same-sex content, and I do in fact buy many games that do not include same-sex content, and I enjoy them. But Bioware offers me something that those other games do not, and if that something is not included in a future Bioware product, then that will make my decision of whether or not to buy said product much, much harder.

You and other heterosexuals might not care if romance was removed altogether. But how would it feel, I wonder, if the only romances available were homosexual ones, and there were no heterosexual romances at all? To know that Bioware had deliberately and blatantly created content to cater to others, while ignoring you and many people like you?

Not being a heterosexual, I can't claim to know how heterosexuals think. But I am a person, and I think I can reasonably assume that feeling left out or sidelined is pretty crummy for everyone, regardless of the specific reason.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 janvier 2013 - 12:57 .

[Herr Uhl]

They could probably do the "your mother wouldn't like this game" ad again. Would spread like wild fire over the internet.

Free publicity.

[robtheguru]

The outrage about the same sex came from the fact that all you had to do was be nice to Alders and he'd be trying to take you to bed.

Personally I don't care if they make every character in every one of their games bisexual.

[upsettingshorts]

robtheguru wrote...

The outrage about the same sex came from the fact that all you had to do was be nice to Alders and he'd be trying to take you to bed. .

He acted like every straight guy does to every girl who is nice to them?

Anders even takes a Rivalry hit due to "FriendZone."

It all makes sense now.

[nightscrawl]

Ophir147 wrote...

EDIT: Correction, I meant rather that I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware added it in.

Really? I thought the exact opposite o_O.

[Plaintiff]

Herr Uhl wrote...

They could probably do the "your mother wouldn't like this game" ad again. Would spread like wild fire over the internet.

Free publicity.

The only thing my mother doesn't like is ads that presume to know her taste just because she happened to squeeze out a couple of kids. 

[Herr Uhl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

robtheguru wrote...

The outrage about the same sex came from the fact that all you had to do was be nice to Alders and he'd be trying to take you to bed. .

He acted like every straight guy does to every girl who is nice to them?

Anders even takes a Rivalry hit due to "FriendZone."

It all makes sense now.

I thought this was obvious.

[Plaintiff]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

robtheguru wrote...

The outrage about the same sex came from the fact that all you had to do was be nice to Alders and he'd be trying to take you to bed. .

He acted like every straight guy does to every girl who is nice to them?

Anders even takes a Rivalry hit due to "FriendZone."

It all makes sense now.

Yes, it was very offensive. The gays are a proud, enlightened and polite people.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 janvier 2013 - 01:26 .

[Robhuzz]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

I'm sure David Gaider wrote same-sex relationship because it would shock the fans not because he simply believes in fairness. <_< DA could have taken the ME route and appeals only to straight male audience but they didn't, and it has nothing to do with shock values.

I personally do not think the lack of s/s romances would deter gay people from actually playing the game. Romances are still just an (albeit important) side theme in bioware games after all. They're not the main attraction. If I were gay I wouldn't like ME1 or 2 any less than I do now for example. I probably have to be careful with the next statement but I think it's more that the USA is their biggest and most important market and they don't seem as open minded to gay relationships as some countries in Europe yet. Controversy offers free publicity but as we saw with ME3's ending, it can and most likely will also have negative consequences.

It just is. You weren't gay, so the way a game is being presented to you probably feel a bit different, at least on a subconscious level. Every game that involved romance in the mainstream are always between straight relationship. You have never been excluded from content or storyline that you can relate to or speak to you. I honestly don't mind games that contained straight relationship by default because I'm experiencing someone else's storyline. In roleplaying games where you can actually have choices and put in situations you want to project yourself into, not being able to engage in s/s content would affect my enjoyment of the game a lot. It's like that character is not mine; it's still someone else's story. That protagonist is a different person, not my avatar, and definitely not the storyline I want to tell with my character. ME 1 and 2 are not made with me in mine. I feel like I'm not wanted when playing it because the developers are making the game with very specific audience in mind, and those audience are not me. With that being said, even when knowing that the game is not being catered to me, I would still buy the game if they're good. DA has gay romance since the very first game, and the sales are very high. In other mediums, Batwoman is one of DC's high selling comic, Earth-2 with a gay protagonist is consistently in the top 5 selling comics each month, Young Avengers seem to be the one of the highest anticipating comics by many fans with 2 gay leads, tons of successful TV shows out there also featured gay characters. The issue is not about gay, it's about whether the medium containing such characters contained good content.

I suppose, in hindsight, it was quite easy for me to say 'if I were... I wouldn't...'. I cannot even pretend to know how you feel on such matters. I should've thought about that before. I meant no offence with this.

Having your roleplay experience hampered because the developers didn't include your preference and essentially makes you feel like they didn't care about you would be a major reason to not get into the game at all. I hadn't really thought about that. Again it's probably because I cannot fully put myself in your shoes. I like the bioware romances but for me they are not the most important aspect of the game. Perhaps because I always take for granted that my preference is there. For you it'd be different and could turn into a game breaker.

[Zardoc]

Emzamination wrote...

^ @ophir Bioware has already stated they would never peddle that kind of dementia in dragon age. Any wannabe bethany romancer can attest to that.

Considering Bethany is one of only two mentally sane, rational and nice (or, in other words, not bat**** insane one way or another and more or less "normal") women you meet in DA2, can you blame them?

Modifié par Zardoc, 03 janvier 2013 - 01:30 .

[Dhiro]

Zardoc wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

^ @ophir Bioware has already stated they would never peddle that kind of dementia in dragon age. Any wannabe bethany romancer can attest to that.

Considering Bethany is one of only two mentally sane, rational and nice (or, in other words, not bat**** insane one way or another and more or less "normal") women you meet in DA2, can you blame them?

Ironically, a Carver romance probably wouldn't be as interesting if he wasn't your brother. After all, a huge part of his personality is shaped by his feelings toward Hawke as his sibling.

Bethany is more about lost opportunities I think.

[Plaintiff]

Zardoc wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

^ @ophir Bioware has already stated they would never peddle that kind of dementia in dragon age. Any wannabe bethany romancer can attest to that.

Considering Bethany is one of only two mentally sane, rational and nice (or, in other words, not bat**** insane one way or another and more or less "normal") women you meet in DA2, can you blame them?

Well if she suddenly wanted to go Cersei Lannister on her older brother, she wouldn't be very "normal" anymore.

[Zardoc]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

^ @ophir Bioware has already stated they would never peddle that kind of dementia in dragon age. Any wannabe bethany romancer can attest to that.

Considering Bethany is one of only two mentally sane, rational and nice (or, in other words, not bat**** insane one way or another and more or less "normal") women you meet in DA2, can you blame them?

Well if she suddenly wanted to go Cersei Lannister on her older brother, she wouldn't be very "normal" anymore.

That's beside the point, but okay.

[daft inquisitor]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Celene II wrote...

I remember the outrage of the first same sex relationship in a bioware game and the free publicity and attention it gained Bioware.

I recall little to no reaction to the same-sex romance in Jade Empire.
 

I thought she was talking about Baldur's Gate 2. Wasn't one of the male NPC's male-romancable? 

[Plaintiff]

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

^ @ophir Bioware has already stated they would never peddle that kind of dementia in dragon age. Any wannabe bethany romancer can attest to that.

Considering Bethany is one of only two mentally sane, rational and nice (or, in other words, not bat**** insane one way or another and more or less "normal") women you meet in DA2, can you blame them?

Well if she suddenly wanted to go Cersei Lannister on her older brother, she wouldn't be very "normal" anymore.

That's beside the point, but okay.

I don't think it is. If Bethany's appeal is that she's "normal" (I assume we're judging her by modern Western standards, in which case I dispute the notion that Bethany is "normal"), then the very act of making her available for romance would diminish that normality, and thus her appeal.