123 réponses à ce sujet

[Xewaka]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Celene II wrote...
I remember the outrage of the first same sex relationship in a bioware game and the free publicity and attention it gained Bioware.

I recall little to no reaction to the same-sex romance in Jade Empire.

I thought she was talking about Baldur's Gate 2. Wasn't one of the male NPC's male-romancable? 

Not without mods.

[Plaintiff]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Celene II wrote...

I remember the outrage of the first same sex relationship in a bioware game and the free publicity and attention it gained Bioware.

I recall little to no reaction to the same-sex romance in Jade Empire.
 

I thought she was talking about Baldur's Gate 2. Wasn't one of the male NPC's male-romancable? 

I thought she was referring to Liara's bisexuality in Mass Effect 1. I remember there being a short, but massive, grossly misinformed uproar about a game that allows players to perform obscene acts of explicit alien sodomy with a wide range of partners.

It made the game sound a lot more fun and interesting than it actually is.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 janvier 2013 - 02:07 .

[Herr Uhl]

Wasn't cheeta girl a psuedo-romancable for the female in Kotor?

[Wyattbw09]

Frankly, I think shock for the sake of shock is stupid and undermines legitimate questions surrounding serious questions. To up the ante as it were in terms of sexuality would be to imply that the original inclusion of same sex relationships was an attempt to play on its deviancy. So now that same sex relationships are ok we need to add something else that is deviant. Same sex relationships in games should be there as an attempt arguing that they are normal in which case there is no need to up the ante or even a need to highlight them as special.

[Zardoc]

Plaintiff wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

^ @ophir Bioware has already stated they would never peddle that kind of dementia in dragon age. Any wannabe bethany romancer can attest to that.

Considering Bethany is one of only two mentally sane, rational and nice (or, in other words, not bat**** insane one way or another and more or less "normal") women you meet in DA2, can you blame them?

Well if she suddenly wanted to go Cersei Lannister on her older brother, she wouldn't be very "normal" anymore.

That's beside the point, but okay.

I don't think it is. If Bethany's appeal is that she's "normal" (I assume we're judging her by modern Western standards, in which case I dispute the notion that Bethany is "normal"), then the very act of making her available for romance would diminish that normality, and thus her appeal.

Like I said, beside the point. My point was that BioWare are dicks for making one of the only normal women in DA2 your sister and thereby non-romanceable.

And when I say normal I mean people who aren't (for example) criminally naive (or rather downright mentally challenged) like Merrill or violent extremists like Anders and (perhaps slightly less violent but loud and obnoxious about it nontheless) Fenris.

I mean, I have no problem with people who have quirks, everyone has those. But much of the DA2 cast has major psychological problems.

Modifié par Zardoc, 03 janvier 2013 - 02:33 .

[Gazardiel]

Zardoc wrote...
Like I said, beside the point. My point was that BioWare are dicks for making one of the only normal women in DA2 your sister and thereby non-romanceable.

And when I say normal I mean people who aren't (for example) criminally naive (or rather downright mentally challenged) like Merrill or violent extremists like Anders and (perhaps slightly less violent but loud and obnoxious about it nontheless) Fenris.

I mean, I have no problem with people who have quirks, everyone has those. But much of the DA2 cast has major psychological problems.

Just as Dragon Age is dark fantasy, so too are all the relationships (especially in DA2) about broken people.  For me, that is what makes the romantic and friendship relationships so compelling - all of them are broken or disturbed or scarred characters who have to deal with hardship and who can either grow and change from their starting points or continue on a self-destructive path. 

No one is "normal," except in dating sims.

[nightscrawl]

I can't speak to the same-sex relationships in Mass Effect.

As far as DAO is concerned, the s/s romances seemed to stem from that specific character. They wrote Leliana and they wrote Zevran, and while doing so they decided that either gender being about to romance them fit with the character. They did not feel that way for Morrigan and Alistair. It never seemed like a shock value thing to me.

However, when they got to DA2 I think it changed a bit. The DAO s/s romances were well received, so instead of doing a similar style to DAO, they opted for more inclusivity across the board and went with the PC-sexual characters. Again though, I never took it as an attempt at shock.

Aside from the benefit of LGBTQ players having the option to represent themselves in a game, it's also good for players who prefer to play as a specific gender since they can still see all the content and not feel restricted that way, which applies no matter what your real orientation is. There is also the RP benefit of being able to play that way.

I suppose I don't really understand what the OP is asking for.

Plaintiff wrote...

If Bethany's appeal is that she's "normal" (I assume we're judging her by modern Western standards, in which case I dispute the notion that Bethany is "normal")...

I know this is somewhat off topic, but can you elaborate on that? Other than being a mage, I really don't see anything abnormal about her. I think she exhibits many of the emotions that a young person in her position would have. I also think, in the context of the game, that it was good for them to have two siblings with differing personalities. I dislike Carver, not because he's not a drooling sycophant to my PC, but because he is angry all the time (although I do like the idea of having a more antagonistic relationship with your sibling). That is grating after a while. I like him much better in the latter parts of the game, or if you bring him along on Legacy/MotA after he is a templar/Warden.

Zardoc wrote...

And when I say normal I mean people who aren't (for example) criminally naive (or rather downright mentally challenged) like Merrill or violent extremists like Anders and (perhaps slightly less violent but loud and obnoxious about it nontheless) Fenris.

I mean, I have no problem with people who have quirks, everyone has those. But much of the DA2 cast has major psychological problems.

I actually don't think they're that bad within the context of the story and their character background. Merrill has every reason to be naive, considering her background, and the fact that she is put into the middle of human society, which she has no experience with. I'm not going to get into Anders in this thread, but I'll just say that I only partially agree with this assessment. As far as Fenris is concerned, I've always considered him a survivalist; when you meet him he had already been on the run from Danarius for some time, so parts of his speech have that mentality behind them.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 03 janvier 2013 - 02:55 .

[LobselVith8]

Zardoc wrote...

Like I said, beside the point. My point was that BioWare are dicks for making one of the only normal women in DA2 your sister and thereby non-romanceable.

Never thought I'd see someone calling an apostate 'normal'.

Zardoc wrote...

And when I say normal I mean people who aren't (for example) criminally naive (or rather downright mentally challenged) like Merrill or violent extremists like Anders and (perhaps slightly less violent but loud and obnoxious about it nontheless) Fenris.

Merrill is an intelligent character. Being a Dalish elf in human society means culture shock, not stupidity simply because she doesn't magically know all about a foreign culture. Anders is a revolutionary who lost his first love to a system he wants to overthrow. Fenris is a former slave who has to live with the horrors of his past as a servant of Danarius, and try to carve out a life for himself.

Zardoc wrote...

I mean, I have no problem with people who have quirks, everyone has those. But much of the DA2 cast has major psychological problems.

They're flawed people, and so is Bethany.

[Plaintiff]

nightscrawl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

If Bethany's appeal is that she's "normal" (I assume we're judging her by modern Western standards, in which case I dispute the notion that Bethany is "normal")...

I know is is somewhat off topic, but can you elaborate on that? Other than being a mage, I really don't see anything abnormal about her.

It would be more accurate to say that she is not more "normal" than other characters.

Remember that I am going by modern Western standards. In modern Western culture, working women such as Aveline and party-loving, sexually liberal women like Isabela are not only "normal", but common and largely accepted in society. Bethany's quiet life and personality are not abnormal, but she is not "more" normal than they are. Merrill is... debateable, she seems to fit the "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" trope. I can't speak for the commonality of her personality type in reality, but it crops up a lot in other fiction. It is also not unusual to meet people like Anders or Fenris, who are passionate about a cause or issue, and will talk about it often. People often make entire careers out of fighting for social change, or working in a charitable capacity... or sitting at home and drinking, if you're like Fenris.

Even if we judge them by the standards of their own setting, they still aren't really abnormal. Female mages (apostates and bloodmages even) were known prior to the existence of Bethany and Merril. Female soldiers are not unheard of and even in the Kirkwall barracks there is at least one other female guard, so Aveline is not an anomaly. And we meet several female career criminals working for the Coterie, the only functional difference between them and Isabela being that she plies her trade primarily at sea.

So no, Bethany is not "more" normal. I daresay Anders and Fenris are the only party members with traits that could be considered genuinely "abnormal", one being possessed by a spirit (even rarer than demonic possession), and one being an escaped slave who underwent a rare procedure that imbued him with abilities that we have yet to see elsewhere.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 03 janvier 2013 - 03:17 .

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

It would be more accurate to say that she is not more "normal" than other characters.

...

That makes more sense then, thanks.

... or sitting at home and drinking, if you're like Fenris.

Two instances does not a habit make.

[Emzamination]

Zardoc wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

^ @ophir Bioware has already stated they would never peddle that kind of dementia in dragon age. Any wannabe bethany romancer can attest to that.

Considering Bethany is one of only two mentally sane, rational and nice (or, in other words, not bat**** insane one way or another and more or less "normal") women you meet in DA2, can you blame them?

Mhm, yes, oh absoloutely.

If the appeal is she's normal, then maybe her weirdo sibling should find her an equally normal mate, no? Don't care if she's the most typical woman in all of thedas, you find & date #2 in that category or makedo without. Wanting to become your sisters lover is w-r-o-n-g, it's disturbing on many many many levels..

Modifié par Emzamination, 03 janvier 2013 - 03:51 .

[Wyattbw09]

All the characters appear pretty normal if they are only around for Act 1. It is how they change and develop over the course of 10 years that makes that appear for not normal.

[Xilizhra]

I personally do not think the lack of s/s romances would deter gay people from actually playing the game.

Speaking firsthand, you're incorrect.

If the appeal is she's normal,
then maybe her weirdo sibling should find her an equally normal mate,
no? Don't care if she's the most typical woman in all of thedas, you
find & date #2 in that category or makedo without. Wanting to become
your sisters lover is w-r-o-n-g, it's disturbing on many many many levels..

All of those levels being wholly physiological; most people are programmed with the Westermarck effect that cuts one off from sexual attraction from those one has grown up with (not necessarily one's relatives; siblings who were separated at birth can easily find one quite attractive). However, it doesn't have to be immoral in the sense of causing harm, assuming there aren't any issues with power imbalance like large age differences.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:30 .

[katamuro]

There is a difference between what is a bit controversial in some countries or societies but generally does not hurt anyone(ie same sex relationships, are after all a personal choice of that person)
And there are things that are disturbing physically and mentally like incest, rape, sex with animals or inanimate objects. You can ask pretty much every person that is what is stranger a gay couple or someone shagging his sister next door and most of the time answer will be the latter.

[Xewaka]

nightscrawl wrote...

... or sitting at home and drinking, if you're like Fenris.

Two instances does not a habit make.

Why do you think he still has the corpses lying about?
Also, consider this: in a game with a very short development time and heavily scripted companion dialogue cinematics, they chose to focus on Fenris drinking alone in the mansion for more than half of them. They are trying to communicate something with that.

Plaintiff wrote...
I thought she was referring to Liara's bisexuality in Mass Effect 1. I remember there being a short, but massive, grossly misinformed uproar about a game that allows players to perform obscene acts of explicit alien sodomy with a wide range of partners. It made the game sound a lot more fun and interesting than it actually is.

That was Fox News years ago. "Grossly misinformed Uproar" is the only way they communicate.

Modifié par Xewaka, 03 janvier 2013 - 04:41 .

[Xilizhra]

katamuro wrote...

There is a difference between what is a bit controversial in some countries or societies but generally does not hurt anyone(ie same sex relationships, are after all a personal choice of that person)
And there are things that are disturbing physically and mentally like incest, rape, sex with animals or inanimate objects. You can ask pretty much every person that is what is stranger a gay couple or someone shagging his sister next door and most of the time answer will be the latter.

Attitudes have changed with time on that note, actually. Bestiality especially hasn't been a universal taboo, and incest among royalty, at least, has been quite common.

[iOnlySignIn]

Celene II wrote...

From both a roleplaying and publicity perspective other types of relationships would make sense. I'm a complete jerk evil blood mage murdering psycho and yet im dating a damaged emo elf with tenderness and care?

Are you serious?

The damaged emo elf with tenderness and care is also a blood mage psycho. It's a good match.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 03 janvier 2013 - 05:15 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Filament wrote...

So you're referring to Twilight and suggesting necrophilia I take it?

I see you're Team Edward. Some of us are Team Bestiality.

[Jumps up and down] Me! Me! 

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 03 janvier 2013 - 05:18 .

[TK514]

I think the appeal of Bethany over the given LI has nothing to do with her being your sister, and everything to do with a quality none of the given LI's have.

She can be counted on to be tactful and reasonably pleasant in general conversation and not embarrass herself or you in polite company. It's a trait she shares with almost all the non-LI companions, with the possible exception of Act 1 Carver.

Merrill can't be trusted to not spontaneously ask something innocently inappropriate, or otherwise foolish sounding. Isabella can't be trusted not to describe, or suggest, or demonstrate something inappropriate. Anders can't be trusted to have a conversation that doesn't turn into an anti-Templar/pro-Mage diatribe, with maybe Vengeance blowing something up at the end. And Fenris can hardly be counted on to have a pleasant conversation in general.

I think, at the end of the day, some people would consider a young woman who worries she might not fit in and who wishes she'd been a princess growing up to be a little more 'normal' (and tolerable) than the guy who thinks his problems are the only topic worth discussing and who might lose it and kill someone over a heated difference of opinion.

Modifié par TK514, 03 janvier 2013 - 06:00 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Celene II wrote...

From both a roleplaying and publicity perspective other types of relationships would make sense. I'm a complete jerk evil blood mage murdering psycho and yet im dating a damaged emo elf with tenderness and care?

Are you serious?

The damaged emo elf with tenderness and care is also a blood mage psycho. It's a good match.

She was talking about Fenris, not Merill. And Merill is not emo, nor does she become damaged until the end of the game. 

[iOnlySignIn]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Celene II wrote...

From both a roleplaying and publicity perspective other types of relationships would make sense. I'm a complete jerk evil blood mage murdering psycho and yet im dating a damaged emo elf with tenderness and care?

Are you serious?

The damaged emo elf with tenderness and care is also a blood mage psycho. It's a good match.

She was talking about Fenris, not Merill. And Merill is not emo, nor does she become damaged until the end of the game. 

I doubt it.

(1) Fenris cares, but I would not call him tender.

(2) If it is Fenris, his hatred of Blood Mages would have been the much more important issue.

[ohnotherancor]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Wasn't cheeta girl a psuedo-romancable for the female in Kotor?

Yes, only females could romance Juhani.

Plantiff wrote...

But how would it feel, I wonder, if the only romances available were
homosexual ones, and there were no heterosexual romances at all?

If the number of male LIs and female LIs was equal, I'd be 100% cool with it. Unless I didn't like any of them for some reason. I think there's only been one BioWare game where I didn't like any of the romance options, though.

Modifié par x0hn0th3r4nc0rx, 03 janvier 2013 - 06:50 .

[LobselVith8]

TheBlackAdder13 wrote...

She was talking about Fenris, not Merill. And Merill is not emo, nor does she become damaged until the end of the game. 

Yeah, although being a former slave gives Fenris valid reasons to be emotional over his past. Merrill is more of a dry humor type of person, as opposed to being "emo". The events at Sundermount in Act III do depress her, but she seems to confide those feelings to Hawke specifically.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Like I said, beside the point. My point was that BioWare are dicks for making one of the only normal women in DA2 your sister and thereby non-romanceable.

Never thought I'd see someone calling an apostate 'normal'.

.

Zardoc was talking about her personality. Regardless, there are people here (even non pro-mages people) that would call an apostate a normal person, myself included. It depends on the apostate's personality, as it depends for every other characters in the games.