48 réponses à ce sujet

[spyroware]

The first few levels are abit tough. Are you running a two-mage setup? One mage trying to dish out damage, buff/debuff, and heal, all while trying to get away from mobs hitting him can be frustrating.

Personally I recommend having your character as damage dealer + another mage for support, with that combo you will get the best satisfaction from having a mage PC (I assume since you made the mage PC you'd want to do the most damage and be in control in general and stuff)

I have immense fun playing as a Blood Mage. First priority is to save money for the Lifegiver ring then at level 14 (Spirit healer should be the first choice at lvl 7 for everyone), aided by a respec mod, spec around Constitution and go all out at Magic. Get Avernus robes, the ring from the Proving and the amulet from Shale's personal quest and voila, instead of the glass cannon you are the main dps'er and the main tank.

For spell's you should aim for the 3 cone spells as early as possible, along with Heal and Group Heal then work you way to Mana Clash. As a Blood Mage Spell Might will be up 24/7, and Mana Clash will make every mage encounter trivial, I remember reloading so many times at caster bosses and any 2-mage mob situation, with Mana class you can one-shot everything with mana, even Gaxxkang (sp).

After that go for Death Cloud (Entropic Death being the highest dmg move) and the Mage line (the double staff dmg is awesome, you end up hitting for almost as much as a your basic single target spells that you aren't wearing +%dmg for. I don't like the big aoe spells much, they are very dangerous at higher difficulties, Fireball however is great cause of it's small radius. Another must spell is the 3rd one in the Blood Mage line, it's practically a huge point-targetted(!) aoe Arcane Prison.

Your support mage should go for Arcane Prison as it's the best early CC and you'd want the Spirit Field early for the oh snap moments anyway, then learn the Hex line. Then go for Haste and finish with the Mage line and the odd single target nuke. Heal and Group Heal of course are learnt first. The rest of healing spells suck imo, especially the regeneration ones. Dunno, perhaps I was very weak when I was experimenting with them but they seemed to offer next to nothing.

And that's it really. Most enjoyable playthrough I had.

Modifié par spyroware, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:12 .

[tetracycloide]

Jack-Nader wrote...
Let's talk about taunt. He states that he lacks threat management. Will giving alistair taunt fix this? No, his mage is still going to generate more aggro than Alistair can.

...

If he chooses option 1, then taunt will have some effect. Walking bomb becomes his main issue as casting it generates a lot of threat.

This is simply is not true.  Casting walking bomb is 5 additional threat, compared to hundreds from taunt, on only the target it is cast on.  An exploding walking bomb is a consierable amount of 'AoE' threat but even that shouldn't pull aggro as it's still in the neighboorhood of 100-200 damage at this point and taunt is still more AoE threat than that.  The only issue with Taunt is making sure it hits everything that needs to be tanked and, occasionally, it will be resisted.

[soteria]

[quote]Jack-Nader wrote...



Let's talk about taunt. He states that he lacks threat management. Will giving alistair taunt fix this? No, his mage is still going to generate more aggro than Alistair can. This leaves him 2 options

1) Have his mage chill out and become a healer which will solve his aggro problem.
2) Give his mage some grunt.
[/quote]

This is simply not true.  If your mage is most healing and CCing, taunt will absolutely hold aggro with no problems.  With his build, his mage will NOT generate more aggro than Alistair can.  Your experiences pulling aggro with your mage probably come from building a "nuker" with a lot of primal spells and hexes.  Having played a mage with similar spells to what he has, I can tell you pulling monsters off Alistair won't be much of an issue with taunt.

[quote]
If he chooses option 1, then taunt will have some effect. Walking bomb becomes his main issue as casting it generates a lot of threat. Sleep/ nightmare synergies well in a melee based party. Glyph line + healing and perhaps haste / flaming weapons / mana clash would allow him to conquer everything the game has to offer.

Option 2)
I've already summed up my view and will not repeat myself..

Both options require a redirection of his build, Option 2 is the more extreme of the two. On top of this he is going to have to give some thought into which play style suits him and adjust accordingly.[/quote]
[/quote]

His mage is currently focused on support, with his spell selection.  Taking two more spells to pick up regeneration is not a "redirect."

Sure, he can just load up on primal spells and try to kill everything before it kills him, but that's not the only way to do it (and wouldn't really go well with the sleep -> waking nightmare line anyway).

[Jack-Nader]

I've just got done fighting the first revenant in denerim. I have 3 warriors and morrigan. All have taunt and threaten (but shale who lacks taunt). The revenant still attacks morrigan first and then continually trys to pull her because she "freezes" him. Would you like me to download fraps and upload a video of it?

[soteria]

/shrug. I already have a video up of me killing a revenant without ever pulling aggro. I could upload another easily enough. Would that convince you? I would be interested to see the video, though, as I'm a bit curious about the exact conditions in which a warrior isn't able to hold aggro with taunt. Use wegame, not fraps. It's better.

[termokanden]

I had problems with aggro until I realized you're just supposed to keep taunting and ignore Threaten altogether. I'm not sure why, but Threaten just seems to be really bad, and Taunt just seems to make tanking way too easy.

[knownastherat]

The Taunt debate is very subjective We do not know what Rhodric78 does in her/his game.

Giving Alistair Taunt can fix it, depending on the usage of Taunt. Say .. let's Taunt, get some hits in, position Sten and other party members meanwhile, then hit Alistair's target with everything, then move on to next target, Alistair is still holding aggro because of focus fire. Even if Rhodric78 mage probably moved on so to say, with his spell picks his mage should not generate all that much threat anyways. Walking Bombs can be used as the last spell enemy "see" so threat generation does not have to be an issue. Threat generation and aggro are issues for the tactical nuker mage opening with Fireball and whatever, though the nuker often has team mates as meat shield or bystanders.

Getting Taunt on Alistair, and using it properly, will not help him with staying alive directly, but will help with threat management, there is no much to argue ..

Modifié par knownastherat, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:37 .

[Jack-Nader]

I dare say its because my warriors are all missing too much (due to revenants high armor and defense) While morrigan can ignore its' armor and ****** it off with spells.  Taunt does initially pull aggro tho but rapidly loses it to morrigan.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:38 .

[spyroware]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I've just got done fighting the first revenant in denerim. I have 3 warriors and morrigan. All have taunt and threaten (but shale who lacks taunt). The revenant still attacks morrigan first and then continually trys to pull her because she "freezes" him. Would you like me to download fraps and upload a video of it?

Did she put Death/Misdirection Hex? Especially the former is an extremely high-threat spell, and to my experience it seems that the crits get registered to the mage than the melee.

Modifié par spyroware, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:41 .

[termokanden]

I'll say this also: I tend to give Alistair a really good sword (like Starfang) and three different grandmaster runes. He always seems to do at least some damage then. I also build him to focus mainly on strength and dex and not really on con at all, making his attack much higher.

[tetracycloide]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I've just got done fighting the first revenant in denerim. I have 3 warriors and morrigan. All have taunt and threaten (but shale who lacks taunt). The revenant still attacks morrigan first and then continually trys to pull her because she "freezes" him. Would you like me to download fraps and upload a video of it?

You're probably triggering one of his/her tactics.  Auto attacks are the most common way to trigger his/her tactics that switch targets, try turning them off for your mages.  If you put morrigan just out of melee range but inside his/her aura of weakness you shouldn't have any trouble.  I've had morrigan and my own mage in seperate fights cast nothing but hexes and cone of colds against revenants and I've never had any agro issues.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:56 .

[Rhodric78]

Wow, some wicked good conversations here. I think what it's starting to boil down to, is what type of mage do I want to be? At first I was under the impression I could do everything, but I'm realizing this isn’t the most enjoyable route.  My warrior and rogue were my DPSers, so I've grown very accustom to dishing out the damage.  I think I'd like to continue this path with a mage.

I guess what I'm curious about is what type of mage compliments various party members/groups and what spells should then be used. I’m also a bit overwhelmed as to all the spell choices. From what I've read here the Disorient > Waking Nightmare line seems more melee group oriented, is this true? From my own experience this seems true because I used only melee characters before and could focus on each threat one at a time.

I'm starting to lean more towards wanting more of a Nuker type mage with some good CC abilities. I wasn't going to include Wynne in my party, but may do so now so that she can compliment my spells. I'd prefer for my main not to be the healer. Are there better party members for a build like this?
Thanks again for the help.

Modifié par Rhodric78, 07 janvier 2010 - 08:45 .

[Jack-Nader]

Thanks termokanden / tetracycloide.. I will invistigate.

[knownastherat]

I believe some mobs have their own preferences who to go after first. Some mobs like to go after Mages for example despite actual (because potential?) threat, but outside of this, speaking generally about many encounters in the game Taunt and threat management works from my experience.

[Cybercat999]

Rhodric78 wrote...
I'm starting to lean more towards wanting more of a Nuker type mage with some good CC abilities. I wasn't going to include Wynne in my party, but may do so now so that she can compliment my spells. I'd prefer for my main not to be the healer. Are there better party members for a build like this?
Thanks again for the help.

You dont *have* to take SH. I take BM as my first spec and AW as second one and I had no problem whasoever. My Morrigan is SH/AW, I got sick and tired of Wynne. Alistair is pure tank and Leli is cun/dex daggers assasin, still not sure if I will get duelist or bard as second this time.

Even with my heavy CC build I do 40ish % of dps and Leli close to 30ish. I was amazed at Kolgrim fight, I basically hexed him and went for adds with Alistair, when I turned around to attack Kolgrim he was laying dead at my feet - Leli took him down all alone. I love that girl

[soteria]

Hmm, what difficulty are you on... and how do you feel about potions? With tactics to use them at 50% health, you really don't need much healing if you play your cards right.

For offensive (aoe) spells, I would say three of the best are blood wound, fireball, and cone of cold, which you already have. Blood wound is friendly to your party, and fireball is decent for starting out a fight, but may not work as well with a melee-heavy party. Cone of cold will work well for you for reasons I pointed out earlier--get overpower, might blow, critical strike, whatever, and shatter away.

Since you're heavy on melee, you might find single-target spells work better for you.  If you pick up all the single target instant damage spells (frost, lightning, stone fist, arcane bolt) and affliction hex, you'll be able to put out pretty respectable damage against a single target.  Frost does the highest damage--I've seen 170 damage on Morrigan with affliction and vulnerability hex up (they stack).

Modifié par soteria, 07 janvier 2010 - 09:12 .

[spyroware]

soteria wrote...

affliction and vulnerability hex up (they stack).

Didn't know that, thanks for that

[tetracycloide]

Shock is actually the highest damage cone spell in terms of raw damage but there are more enemies with low cold resistances than low electrical resistances so cone often hits harder. Fire blast also does more damage than either of them but it is a DoT instead of direct damage like the others.

[Jack-Nader]

hmm.. I believe the taunt issue has something to do with the CT mod, tho I do not understand why as it's changelog only affects taunt cooldown / cost. Perhaps it is conflicting with something else I have or have had installed? I am pretty sure I broke the game uninstalling it as wb does not work anymore and morrigan is generating absolutely no aggro whatsoever. Kind of funny because I can now cast whatever I want without using taunt or threaten and have no reprocussions

[Mr_Raider]

TActics are bunk.



As soon as you see a mob, hold your party (press H), and pause. Manually target your archers to spell casters. place and target the CC spell. Release the pause for one turn and as soon as the spell hits, pause again. Pick out who is still moving and send your melee people there manually. Unload all your damage spells before the CC wears off on who ever is closest to your tanks, then release the hold and allow your party to move.



Spellcasters who do damage or crowd control need micromanagement. They can't just be set on tactics like healers.

[PatT2]

Crowd control is a job for high-level tacticians. Generals, Colonels, etc. So they have to be on the field looking at the entire battle plan. They can't be put on cruise control.



People who are missing too much with their melee don't have enough points in dex. You can min/max all you want, but if you want to actually hit something... and if you swing twice and miss once, and I can swing 3 times and hit every time, who do you think will fall first? Especially since upping dex also ups defense which means even if you do usually hit, you might miss? That's why rogues are so darned powerful. High defense and high hit rate (unless you dump it all in cunning...mores the pity).



That said. My mage. I usually get rock fist and wintersgrasp right away. Like when I build. I get to cone of cold asap. Then I go for crushing prison. By the time I get to the level 7, I usually have crushing prison and cone of cold and all the ones. I spec my first as spirit healer for group heal, get regular heal, then go back to the glyph line and get at least the first 3. Then I head for mana clash.



2nd spec I usually do as an arcane warrior, even if I never plan to wear armor.



I usually give Wynne the glyph line as soon as it is expedient. Part of the awesomeness of Wynne as a healer is the regen that she starts on people when they're still at 90% health. So they don't drop as fast. I also like that she has rock fist.



By the way, rock fist is excellent against single archers. Pick the 2 that are bothering you the most and hit them both with rock fist. They get knocked down and you get breathing time. then if 2 mages both have glyph of paralysis....



You can get your crowd managed in no time. By then, folks have lined up around your tank, and you can just slink to the side and get 3 of them into a cone of cold. Both you and wynne, by that time, should have Rock fist back. Shattered.



I give Morrigan the hex line. She's weak at first because the first spells in those lines are weakness and vulnerability hex. So use her vulnerability hex right before you use your winters grasp.



Multi mage groups are powerful, but they do have to be micromanaged for best effect. If you set your tactics well enough your melee characters don't need as much maintenance.

[tetracycloide]

PatT2 wrote...
People who are missing too much with their melee don't have enough points in dex.

Either that or they're not managing their buffs and debuffs correctly.  Between Weakness, Miasma, Heroic Offense, Disorient, Rally, Crippling Shot, Song of Courage, Below the Belt, Upset Balance, and Duelist there's always an option to increase attack either directly or indirectly by lowering target defense.  Dexterity and Cunning offer the same attribute bonuses to damage so it's a wash in terms of damage there but Cunning offers armor penetration and there are a lot of high armor targets in the game.  What tools does a Dexterity rogue have to deal with them?  Telekenetic weapons and sunder armor, that's it.  Plus target defense is halved while stunned/frozen/paralysed and flanking offers a +20 attack bonus so really a well positioned rogue in a party has far more to gain from points in Cunning than points in Dexterity.  For solo play, where defense on a rogue actually matters, sure, dexterity all the way.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 08 janvier 2010 - 05:12 .

[flagondotcom]

Cone of Cold remains the best CC spell in the game, particularly when combined with Stone Fist (=Shatter) or Crushing Prison (=Shatter). The best way for a mage to deal with creating too much aggro is to ensure that things are *dead*.



Sample 7th-level Party: Alistair (tank), Dog (DPS/offtank), Leliana (ranged/bard), PC (Mage SH).

Action: Mage casts Winter's Grasp on whatever Alistair/Dog is attacking, then moves over to one side for enfilade (flanking) fire of CoC to hit enemies and only enemies. Once CoC has been cast, follow up with Stone Fist (or later Crushing Prison) to take one enemy out immediately. Lather, rinse, repeat.



Across two playthroughs (DW Warrior Te/Ch and Mage SH/BM) I've *never* used either variant of walking bomb, and rarely used glyphs. The only time I've ever cast Fireball is as the burning man in the Fade, I've never used Inferno, and I've never bothered to get all the pieces to be able to do SotC. The above basic strategy will take you far, especially once Drain Life, Mana Clash, some other elemental damage attacks, and Blood Wound are added.



But the bottom line is that there are *many* ways to play this and "optimize" things. I would definitely say that a DPS mage is awfully squishy until about level 12...

[PatT2]

tetracycloide wrote...

PatT2 wrote...
People who are missing too much with their melee don't have enough points in dex.

Either that or they're not managing their buffs and debuffs correctly.  Between Weakness, Miasma, Heroic Offense, Disorient, Rally, Crippling Shot, Song of Courage, Below the Belt, Upset Balance, and Duelist there's always an option to increase attack either directly or indirectly by lowering target defense.  Dexterity and Cunning offer the same attribute bonuses to damage so it's a wash in terms of damage there but Cunning offers armor penetration and there are a lot of high armor targets in the game.  What tools does a Dexterity rogue have to deal with them?  Telekenetic weapons and sunder armor, that's it.  Plus target defense is halved while stunned/frozen/paralysed and flanking offers a +20 attack bonus so really a well positioned rogue in a party has far more to gain from points in Cunning than points in Dexterity.  For solo play, where defense on a rogue actually matters, sure, dexterity all the way.

For me, the dex/cunning on a rogue gets all confused in my mind, because of the dex bug, and the patch on the pc platform vs. no patch on the 360 platform. So I don't know what the heck is coming and going. But this thread was supposed to be about mage builds... Though your very first comment makes immense sense. That folks aren't managing their buffs/debuffs correctly, at least as part of any reason why they're not hitting.

But I do know that by the time I got to about level 18, my dex rogue didn't fear anything. She had a hit rate of 95. she did about 50% of the team's damage. With a dagger and a long-sword, so she sacrificed soem points to get str to 31.

I don't solo because the game was designed for a team/party. However...some day I might. At which point maybe it will be more important.

I guess the point is that no one thing alone can be accounted to why a char is not performing, it's usually a combination of things, inexperience being #1. I threw out my first character at level 18, at the steps to Ford Drakon, because I realized that I had too little experience, the wrong spells/skills and not the right equipment. That was my first. I learned a lot by doing things wrong.

As for the dex thing, I sure wish they would fix it for ALL platforms and then explain exactly what does, and what does not work. Because reading on here, with folks from 3 platforms, 2 of which are not patched and one which is, I get confused as heck reading. Because people with patched games have a diff. experience than people without. Talk about confusing.