244 réponses à ce sujet

[ozsras]

I actually like playing a male PC as a friend to Morrigan in my playthroughs. I did romance her once but...idk, all my males like having her as a friend.

Plus, I think it's kinda sweet that she truly never thought she could be friends with a man. Ever. And yet here she is in a good friendship with one. (she also says that about love if you romance her but it just seems sweeter to me if you are her friend instead)

I'm like that with Sten when I play a female. Especially a female warrior, I love that the dude is so freaked out by it but by then we're like totally BFF and he respects my female PC as warrior. (also even better if you are a female arcane warrior mage ) It's just really...good. I have to say that I love the friendships in this game more than the romances. I really do.

@TSamee: I *love* your sig. I think that's one of my favorite lines in AC2!

Modifié par ozsras, 09 janvier 2010 - 11:53 .

[TSamee]

True, pure genius on Ubisoft's part

And I agree with you as far as friendships go. I can't really speak for Morrigan, as my relationships with her were all very love/hate, but you're right, as far as Sten goes. Though Zev apparently becomes really devoted as a lover, I wouldn't know (trying to hold myself back from the achievment), but he turns out to be a really awesome guy under the layers of insane sex drive.

[ozsras]

Hee! It definitely was.



Oh, yeah, Zev and Leli (I usually romance her but it's so much fun to be friends too) are awesome. I kinda wanted to take them with me when I go to Sten's homeland. I mean it would just be *fantastic*. Leli would charm all the Qunari and Zev would try to sleep with them. LOL

[IronWolf1987]

I'd just like to say thank you to the poster(s) who pointed out that not only is the Dark Ritual a safety net in keeping an Alistair alive if heed needs to make the final blow, but a safety net period since it would allow anyone to make the final blow. I'm not sure why that thought never occurred to me, but it really changes things. At first I thought the dark ritual was just the best option, now in my opinion it is the only option regardless if I decide to spare Loghain or not.



Again my thanks to every for posting in my topic and engaging in dialogue. Makes me glad to know that my fellow Bioware fans are as awesome as the games!

[Lotion Soronarr]

TSamee wrote...
If you build on the fragile assumption that the PC changed her view of things (looking at cirsumstances, it's almost as valid as the assumption that she's just a manipulative ****), you realise that she might deviate from she and Flemeth's initial plan, and bring up the child accordingly.

Even if I were to belive she might want to bring the child up accordingly (accordingly to whom???), I dont' think she has the means or knoledge to do so.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Elessara wrote...

Honestly the biggest problem with the child for me is that it is a complete unknown. Will it be good or evil? You really don't know. The archdemons are supposed to be highly intelligent and the only reason they lead the darkspawn is because they have been corrupted. What would it do in a human body? Would it remember anything? Would it have godlike powers? It didn't have godlike powers as the Archdemon though or we wouldn't have won to begin with?

Assumptions.

We don't KNOW if the archdemon was sleeping. We don't know if it leads the darkspawn because it is corrupted, or because it like it. We only know a few legends about how the blight starts. No one except the darkspawn has actually been there when the darkspawn and the old god met, so we don't really know.

[TSamee]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TSamee wrote...
If you build on the fragile assumption that the PC changed her view of things (looking at cirsumstances, it's almost as valid as the assumption that she's just a manipulative ****), you realise that she might deviate from she and Flemeth's initial plan, and bring up the child accordingly.

Even if I were to belive she might want to bring the child up accordingly (accordingly to whom???), I dont' think she has the means or knoledge to do so.

Sorry, poor choice of words. I mean that she may bring up the child differently to what she had originally planned with Flemeth. No idea how, but differently. And, to be honest, you are right, having been brought up by Flemeth, I doubt Morrigan would make a very capable mother. It would be fun if someone made a comedy spin-off mod about caring for the child XD.

"You see a goat. It has recently given birth, and is more than fit to produce milk for the baby. What do you do?"

"Stare awkwardly :blink:"

Modifié par TSamee, 09 janvier 2010 - 04:09 .

[robertthebard]

TSamee wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TSamee wrote...
If you build on the fragile assumption that the PC changed her view of things (looking at cirsumstances, it's almost as valid as the assumption that she's just a manipulative ****), you realise that she might deviate from she and Flemeth's initial plan, and bring up the child accordingly.

Even if I were to belive she might want to bring the child up accordingly (accordingly to whom???), I dont' think she has the means or knoledge to do so.

Sorry, poor choice of words. I mean that she may bring up the child differently to what she had originally planned with Flemeth. No idea how, but differently. And, to be honest, you are right, having been brought up by Flemeth, I doubt Morrigan would make a very capable mother. It would be fun if someone made a comedy spin-off mod about caring for the child XD.

"You see a goat. It has recently given birth, and is more than fit to produce milk for the baby. What do you do?"

"Stare awkwardly :blink:"

Actually, given that Morrigan's little speech about it in camp says that survival and power are important, I fail to see how anyone would think that she would make a poor mother.  She may not be June Cleaver, but she'd be more than capable of raising the child to be a survivor.

[Doyle41]

[

[/quote]
Actually, given that Morrigan's little speech about it in camp says that survival and power are important, I fail to see how anyone would think that she would make a poor mother.  She may not be June Cleaver, but she'd be more than capable of raising the child to be a survivor.[/quote]

Survivor yes. Cold, manipulative, and evil person, even more so. She wouldn't love the child, she doesn't believe in coddling and such things.

[TSamee]

Yes... Flemeth raised her child to be survivor, and, well...



I rest my case.



Not that Morrigan is a poor example of how to raise a child, but the fact that, the second love, altruism, anything emotionally alien enters the equation, she flips out. Hell, she becomes something of a wreck if you ask why she doesn't want to sleep with you anymore. I honestly love her as a character, but if she raises the child like Flemeth raised her, then we'll have a similar situation.

[InvaderErl]

That was actually one of the saddest bits of the game for me and what sold me on her as a character. She knows she's screwed up. That coupled with when she says she's not worth the Warden's distraction and it becomes clear that deep down she's got a pretty low opinion of herself.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 09 janvier 2010 - 05:34 .

[Sialater]

Elessara wrote...

Just as an aside ... in BG you weren't the child of the god of war ... you were the child of the god of murder. The first time I played that game I had no clue. My class? Paladin. Oh the delicious irony.

Honestly the biggest problem with the child for me is that it is a complete unknown. Will it be good or evil? You really don't know. The archdemons are supposed to be highly intelligent and the only reason they lead the darkspawn is because they have been corrupted. What would it do in a human body? Would it remember anything? Would it have godlike powers? It didn't have godlike powers as the Archdemon though or we wouldn't have won to begin with.

On the playthrough where I accepted her ritual I did it for 2 reasons. One, my character was weak. She's human, she's in love with Alistair. Sure Riordan said he would make the killing blow but what if he dies before he can do that? Alistair has already lost the only person he ever thought cared for him. Could she really leave him to rule Ferelden alone? Can she sacrifice Alistair? She herself has also lost a great deal. So ... a moment of weakness. Which will probably come back to bite her on the ass. She may very well regret this decision more than any other. But she's human. And she's not a paladin.

The other reason was the safety net. They're going into a large battle against overwhelming odds. What are the chances that all three wardens will survive to actually kill the archdemon? She's also trying to rationlize her decision to agree to Morrigan's plan. My char isn't a bad person .. she's just not a very good warden.

That was pretty much my reasoning when I took it.  I was playing a rather tactically minded elf mage.  All that reading she did in the Tower had to be good for something, right?  She loved Al, but stopping the Blight, at least this particular rampage, was the bigger goal.

[robertthebard]

TSamee wrote...

Yes... Flemeth raised her child to be survivor, and, well...

I rest my case.

Not that Morrigan is a poor example of how to raise a child, but the fact that, the second love, altruism, anything emotionally alien enters the equation, she flips out. Hell, she becomes something of a wreck if you ask why she doesn't want to sleep with you anymore. I honestly love her as a character, but if she raises the child like Flemeth raised her, then we'll have a similar situation.

Does she not survive?  Do you think she cannot pass this on to the child?  Do you think it would be in her best interests, no matter what she plans to do with the child to not pass this on to the child?  It's easy to sit in a chair, in a room with electric lights, and a 'fridge full of food and point at Flemeth and say "Bad mother".  However, since they have none of these things, and did indeed live in the Wilds, how can we fault teaching her that survival should come before anything?  Applying modern philosophies to people that don't have it easy isn't exactly applicable.  If you're living under the same conditions, are you really going to teach your child that love conquers all, and that it will make the Templars just go away, instead of killing you?

Yes yes, "But being an Apostate is illegal, and they deserve whatever they get".  Yeah, according to the Chantry, this is true, so do you purge the elves in the Dalish quest line everytime?  After all, Zathrian is as close to an Abomination as you can get without actually being possessed by a demon.  His people follow somebody that has practiced Blood Magic.  So, by definition, they are no better, and they knowingly harbor an Apostate, the mage from Wynne's quest line.  Do you have Wynne in your party?  She is literally possessed by a spirit of the Fade.  This would make her an Abomination too, by the literal definition.

Convenient morallity?  "The elves seem nice enough, despite the fact that their leader has extended his lifespan by centuries by inflicting his curse on generations of humans whose ancestors did him a great wrong".  "But Wynne is a great healer, and so her possession should be overlooked because I need a healer".  "Morrigan was raised to be a survivor, and so isn't willing to risk her life to save people that are largely irrelevent to the story, (Redcliffe/Owen's daughter), or is willing to sacrifice people (elves in the Alienage/Anvil of the Void) to gain more power, so she is the queen of all evil".  Yet Sten, who also feels like saving Redcliffe and Owen's daughter is a waste of time is just practical.  Despite agreeing with Morrigan that the mages should just be purged.  In modern times, Morrigan would be a Darwinist, survival of the fittest.  Saying that saving Redcliffe adds to your army is inaccurate, since even if you let Redcliffe fall, you get an army from there, since you have to save Eamon no matter what.

But Rob, that's metagaming.  So is assuming what she's going to do with the baby.  The simple fact is that we don't know what she will do with the baby, and within the scope of what we have in game right now, that fact is largely irrelevent.  All we do know is that she's going to allow us to end the Blight w/out sacrificing ourselves to the Archdemon to do it.  All postulating about what she may or may not do with the baby is is trying to convince somebody that it's an option that should never be taken.  As I said earlier in this discussion, if you don't feel comfortable with the ritual, don't do it.  If you can find any reason, even mine; I don't want to die, then do it.  There is no right or wrong answer.

Modifié par robertthebard, 09 janvier 2010 - 05:47 .

[kgav]

I think it's important to break the cycle, the Grey Wardens have been doing the same thing and the blight returns. I take Morrigan's offer and I do it because in the end the Grey Wardens are failing, they are locked in a repeating cycle and it's important to purify this Old God's tainted soul.



I went through every question with Morrigan, I know she loves me because how could she not? I'm pretty awesome and she's been alone with Flemeth for too many years. I'm the first guy to give her presents, value her opinion and protect her. She totally digs me.



Stopping a Blight is simply winning a battle not a War, and killinig an enslaved Old God in the process if done the same way the Wardens have for millennia. Another blight will one day arise if I don't do something to break the cycle.

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
Actually, given that Morrigan's little speech about it in camp says that survival and power are important, I fail to see how anyone would think that she would make a poor mother.  She may not be June Cleaver, but she'd be more than capable of raising the child to be a survivor.

You're missing hte point.

Will she raise it with a good set of morals?
Will it be social?
Will it be emotionally scarred?

[TSamee]

InvaderErl wrote...

That was actually one of the saddest bits of the game for me and what sold me on her as a character. She knows she's screwed up. That coupled with when she says she's not worth the Warden's distraction and it becomes clear that deep down she's got a pretty low opinion of herself.

That sort of made me more determined to show her that this was all perfectly normal for a woman in love, that love wasn't a bad thing, and that she was worth it. I tried to fix things a little bit, she recovered by prioritising her mission (the Ritual) over my Warden. And she's still got me wrapped around her finger, whether she likes it or not. Chances are that there won't be a happy ending for Morrigan, but that won't stop us trying, eh?

[kgav]

For the record as a Human Noble being exposed to the Mage's Circle, the Templar's and the Chantry the mages are nothing more than caged birds, slaves. I don't like it one bit and I would like to free the mage's circle let good men and woman like Irving and Wynne rule the circle without the damn Templars threat over their heads.

[TSamee]

robertthebard wrote...

TSamee wrote...

Yes... Flemeth raised her child to be survivor, and, well...

I rest my case.

Not that Morrigan is a poor example of how to raise a child, but the fact that, the second love, altruism, anything emotionally alien enters the equation, she flips out. Hell, she becomes something of a wreck if you ask why she doesn't want to sleep with you anymore. I honestly love her as a character, but if she raises the child like Flemeth raised her, then we'll have a similar situation.

Does she not survive?  Do you think she cannot pass this on to the child?  Do you think it would be in her best interests, no matter what she plans to do with the child to not pass this on to the child?  It's easy to sit in a chair, in a room with electric lights, and a 'fridge full of food and point at Flemeth and say "Bad mother".  However, since they have none of these things, and did indeed live in the Wilds, how can we fault teaching her that survival should come before anything?  Applying modern philosophies to people that don't have it easy isn't exactly applicable.  If you're living under the same conditions, are you really going to teach your child that love conquers all, and that it will make the Templars just go away, instead of killing you?

Though I see where you're coming from, and you are right, but I'm not just talking about love here. I'm a little bit tired of playing the "omfg, morrigan, love me!!" stereotype, and this isn't about that. What I'm saying is that once she meets a person that makes her uncertain of what she's been taught (i.e: the PC), she turns into a wreck. She doesn't even hold onto her beliefs and ignore yours, she sort-of tries seeing yours, and it destroys her emotionally. Now, I'm not saying they do, but let's assume the God-child has access to bucketloads of power (they've been trained by Morrigan as a mage, etc.) Do you really want someone like that being wrecked emotionally, and possibly wreaking havoc in their uncertainty? It's not about Morrigan not being sure on how to deal with loving the PC, it's about Morrigan bringing the child up without telling it about how to deal with emotions like love, altruism, etc., and the repercussions that could have.

All that said, mr robertthebard, I think you are certainly right in that Morrigan should definitely teach the child from a realistic, survivalist standpoint, as survival is the most important part of living in places like the Wilds. I just think that she should tell it about how to deal with others' emotions so that seeing the world from another point of view doesn't tear it apart.

[robertthebard]

TSamee wrote...

Though I see where you're coming from, and you are right, but I'm not just talking about love here. I'm a little bit tired of playing the "omfg, morrigan, love me!!" stereotype, and this isn't about that. What I'm saying is that once she meets a person that makes her uncertain of what she's been taught (i.e: the PC), she turns into a wreck. She doesn't even hold onto her beliefs and ignore yours, she sort-of tries seeing yours, and it destroys her emotionally. Now, I'm not saying they do, but let's assume the God-child has access to bucketloads of power (they've been trained by Morrigan as a mage, etc.) Do you really want someone like that being wrecked emotionally, and possibly wreaking havoc in their uncertainty? It's not about Morrigan not being sure on how to deal with loving the PC, it's about Morrigan bringing the child up without telling it about how to deal with emotions like love, altruism, etc., and the repercussions that could have.

All that said, mr robertthebard, I think you are certainly right in that Morrigan should definitely teach the child from a realistic, survivalist standpoint, as survival is the most important part of living in places like the Wilds. I just think that she should tell it about how to deal with others' emotions so that seeing the world from another point of view doesn't tear it apart.

This is where we can certainly get tied up in uncertainty.  Did we affect her?  If so, how much?  I'm far from the love struck teenager where she's concerned, and have denied her the ritual even while romancing her.  In fact, the only PC that I played that gave in to the ritual was female.  However, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about what the child might be, even when I deny her the ritual.  I do use her motives.  I can't know that she's not planning to pull a Flemeth, although I can't know that she is.  I just base my decision flatly on I don't know.  I don't know what she intends, so I don't give in.  What the child will become or not doesn't figure into my decision at all.  Frankly, metagaming comes in more than anything else; I want Loghain or Alistair to die, or myself.  Although I've been too busy with "What happens if I do this on this quest line, instead of that" to actually finish my self sacrifice game.  That character is in Orzammar, on the last treaty.  She's been there for about a month now, in real time.

[novaseeker]

I read her more cynically than that, even to the end. Yes, she is surprised by the experience of being in love, of falling in love, yet her cynical side more or less remains in charge. Her approach to the ritual is very "matter of fact", and ultimately grounded in her desire for power and survival. I think we see some chinks in the armor, but overall she remains a dark character, I think, in the end. A very well-written one, mind you, but not a character I really ended up "liking".