244 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Sialater wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Sialater wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I find it amusing that you would take this position, and yet condemn Loghain for the death of GW's.  All sending in the troops does is risk killing off Grey Wardens fighting a war against Loghain to try to end the Blight.  By this logic, Loghain's decision to not enter the battle at Ostagar makes perfect sense, since he's trying to keep Orlais out at all costs.  He  would throw everything he has at Orlais, and the odds are that if he won, he'd kill off all the Orlesian Grey Wardens too, hence right back in the position of noone to stop the Blight.  Assistance was requested, and then rejected.  Since Ferelden can't make up it's mind what's best for them, let them fall, and then end the Blight.

You see, at all costs doesn't include throwing away any chance at stopping the Blight by fighting the army of the country you're trying to save.  If they don't want saved, then don't save them, then come in and stop the Blight.  This is stopping the Blight, at all costs, it just cost all of Ferelden to do it.

Actually, I don't object to Loghain's paranoia about Orlais.  For the most part, I agree with him.  However, his methods were sloppy and ill considered.  You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.   You don't allow the wiping out of one of Ferelden's oldest Teryns nor the crippling of its greatest weapon just on the OFF CHANCE the Grey Wardens might be sympathetic to a foreign country.  

And as our groups proved, once past the borders, a small small force can move about with impunity within Ferelden itself.

The point being that just because you may not like the cost, all of Ferelden, doesn't mean the price isn't being paid.

But, you have a choice in what price will be paid, don't you?  Without that ritual, there is at best, ONE Grey Warden left at the end.  And if he's the king, that kinda limits what he can do for recruiting, no?

I actually do find it curious that something that's supposed to have the intelligence of a Mabari (I think that's what it was compared to) rose up in the one nation that was so weak in Grey Wardens that one battle wiped them out (no matter your take on Loghain's teachery).   Wouldn't it be better to have two to stick around and get ready, than one?

I don't have a set opinion against the ritual, though I've only done it once.  It is acceptable for me to see every reason to do it, and even for only one reason; to make sure I don't die.  I'm too young to die.  Regarding future consequences, who cares, they are in the future.  I'm all about living in the now.

[Maria Caliban]

Recidiva wrote...

Her ritual is called "the dark ritual" - this ain't Wynne's ritual.

It's dark because she blows out the candle, as can clearly be seen in the cinematic. Wynne would do it with the lights on as all circle raised maged are taught to do.

[robertthebard]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Recidiva wrote...

Her ritual is called "the dark ritual" - this ain't Wynne's ritual.

It's dark because she blows out the candle, as can clearly be seen in the cinematic. Wynne would do it with the lights on as all circle raised maged are taught to do.

They weren't taught that, that was just Cullen, keeping an eye on you...

[Doyle41]

Morrigan learned the secret of her mother's strength and longevity. Morrigan will become the next Flemeth. As Flemeth "consumed" her children to prolong her life, Morrigan will also use this child to bind with her. Therefore she will aquire the demon powers that her mother possessed. Morrigan said that power was above all else, what better way to achieve such a feat? Morrigan manipulates the hero into killing Flemeth "supposedly" and letting Morrigan to gain the secrets that will make her as strong as her mother

[Recidiva]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It's dark because she blows out the candle, as can clearly be seen in the cinematic. Wynne would do it with the lights on as all circle raised maged are taught to do.

Yup.  And the Sloth demon is just trying to make sure people have healthy sleep habits.

Everyone's really looking out for everyone else.  It's a beautiful thing.

[DPSSOC]

Recidiva wrote...
I consider taking her deal to be one of the greatest potential evils in the game. In fact I can't think of doing much that would be more evil.

 
Giving not one but two children to demons for personal gain?

Recidiva wrote...
And if you take her to the anvil, she's angry if you don't side with Branka. If she thinks the anvil is a good deal, what do you think she will stop at doing if it comes to it?

The anvil is a good deal, you trade one warrior for an even stronger, harder to kill warrior.  The Anvil is a tool, there is nothing evil about it.  Now if you round up people and force them to become Golems then yes you are evil but the Anvil is still just the tool.  If people, fully knowing what they're agreeing to, volunteer to be made Golems for the good of their people where's the harm?

[Sialater]

Actually, I took her to the Anvil. Got no disapproval from her when I destroyed it. (That I remember, at least.) I also threatened to stick her on it, if she thought it was so cool, but Emma Cousland's a bit of a smart ass. (My mage didn't need her at the Anvil.)



Granted, I haven't decided if Emma's taking the deal or not, but my mage had no qualms. Because by the end battle, she was mighty tired of the Chantry and its old gods who still saw her as inherently evil just because she was born a mage and utterly inferior because she was born an elf. So, she took her friend's word that the child might be a good thing. And is prepared to deal with it if it's not.





I do not think that Morrigan knew all about the Ritual when she was sent with you. If you're a female Grey Warden, she would have been a LOT nicer to Alistair, for one. She doesn't actually tell you she knew from the beginning that's why she was sent with you. She says, "Why do you think I was sent with you?" If you give her the grimoires, I think that's how she finds out.



If you don't give her the grimoires, nothing stops Flemeth from visiting Morrigan one dark night and instructing her on what to do. Flemeth, however, did have designs on that baby. Possessing its mother, then it, probably. Whether Morrigan means to possess it (if she's not already Flemeth, that is), remains to be seen. It may not even be possible. Heck, Flemeth might never have been able to possess the baby.

[Bhatair]

DPSSOC wrote...

The anvil is a good deal, you trade one warrior for an even stronger, harder to kill warrior.  The Anvil is a tool, there is nothing evil about it.  Now if you round up people and force them to become Golems then yes you are evil but the Anvil is still just the tool.  If people, fully knowing what they're agreeing to, volunteer to be made Golems for the good of their people where's the harm?

Right, because that worked out so well the first time

[Sialater]

robertthebard wrote...

Sialater wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Sialater wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I find it amusing that you would take this position, and yet condemn Loghain for the death of GW's.  All sending in the troops does is risk killing off Grey Wardens fighting a war against Loghain to try to end the Blight.  By this logic, Loghain's decision to not enter the battle at Ostagar makes perfect sense, since he's trying to keep Orlais out at all costs.  He  would throw everything he has at Orlais, and the odds are that if he won, he'd kill off all the Orlesian Grey Wardens too, hence right back in the position of noone to stop the Blight.  Assistance was requested, and then rejected.  Since Ferelden can't make up it's mind what's best for them, let them fall, and then end the Blight.

You see, at all costs doesn't include throwing away any chance at stopping the Blight by fighting the army of the country you're trying to save.  If they don't want saved, then don't save them, then come in and stop the Blight.  This is stopping the Blight, at all costs, it just cost all of Ferelden to do it.

Actually, I don't object to Loghain's paranoia about Orlais.  For the most part, I agree with him.  However, his methods were sloppy and ill considered.  You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.   You don't allow the wiping out of one of Ferelden's oldest Teryns nor the crippling of its greatest weapon just on the OFF CHANCE the Grey Wardens might be sympathetic to a foreign country.  

And as our groups proved, once past the borders, a small small force can move about with impunity within Ferelden itself.

The point being that just because you may not like the cost, all of Ferelden, doesn't mean the price isn't being paid.

But, you have a choice in what price will be paid, don't you?  Without that ritual, there is at best, ONE Grey Warden left at the end.  And if he's the king, that kinda limits what he can do for recruiting, no?

I actually do find it curious that something that's supposed to have the intelligence of a Mabari (I think that's what it was compared to) rose up in the one nation that was so weak in Grey Wardens that one battle wiped them out (no matter your take on Loghain's teachery).   Wouldn't it be better to have two to stick around and get ready, than one?

I don't have a set opinion against the ritual, though I've only done it once.  It is acceptable for me to see every reason to do it, and even for only one reason; to make sure I don't die.  I'm too young to die.  Regarding future consequences, who cares, they are in the future.  I'm all about living in the now.

I don't either.  It all depends on my characters.  My mage told Al everything and let him "decide" (as much as a pixilated person can decide anything, I guess), and I haven't decided what my Cousland girl will do. 

[Abriael_CG]

personally, I can more or less bet that the "dark ritual" with morrigan will be very important in one of the next dragon age games. Either that "god child" will end up being a main villain, or even more probable, he/she will end up being the main charater.

[Herr Uhl]

Bhatair wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The anvil is a good deal, you trade one warrior for an even stronger, harder to kill warrior.  The Anvil is a tool, there is nothing evil about it.  Now if you round up people and force them to become Golems then yes you are evil but the Anvil is still just the tool.  If people, fully knowing what they're agreeing to, volunteer to be made Golems for the good of their people where's the harm?

Right, because that worked out so well the first time

Yes, it bought the surface-dwellers time enough to come up with GW during the first blight.

[Swerodent]

The reason why my warden accepted to do the ritual was quite simple:

He was in love with her and he honestly believe that deep inside she is a good person. She may be manipulative and power-hungry, but she is not like her mother (unless she really is ). Her responses during conversations with Leliana and my warden show that she is little more than a lonely and frightened teenager who is not as cold as her mother would like her to be. She though she was until the moment she realised that she was in fact, in love, then much changed,



It is as Wynne said, "You is beautiful, and he is young".



Maybe Thedas will pay a terrible price for his action, maybe it won´t. One thing is certain though, if Morrigan turns out to use his child for evil he will deal with her most harshly.

Hell hath no fury like a Cousland scorned!

[eschilde]

Edit: oops, wrong topic

Modifié par eschilde, 07 janvier 2010 - 03:53 .

[Bhatair]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The anvil is a good deal, you trade one warrior for an even stronger, harder to kill warrior.  The Anvil is a tool, there is nothing evil about it.  Now if you round up people and force them to become Golems then yes you are evil but the Anvil is still just the tool.  If people, fully knowing what they're agreeing to, volunteer to be made Golems for the good of their people where's the harm?

Right, because that worked out so well the first time

Yes, it bought the surface-dwellers time enough to come up with GW during the first blight.

Oh, I don't deny that Golems are a powerful recource. My comment was more directed at the 'Volunteer' part, heh.

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The anvil is a good deal, you trade one warrior for an even stronger, harder to kill warrior.  The Anvil is a tool, there is nothing evil about it.  Now if you round up people and force them to become Golems then yes you are evil but the Anvil is still just the tool.  If people, fully knowing what they're agreeing to, volunteer to be made Golems for the good of their people where's the harm?

Right, because that worked out so well the first time

Yes, it bought the surface-dwellers time enough to come up with GW during the first blight.

At the price of many slaves being made.  When is the price too high?

[Sialater]

Also, I keep coming across a dialogue Lelianna and Alistair have. In it, they talk about that "Good of the many outweigh the good of the one," concept.



The one with the moral center supposedly pointing due north (Al) is uncomfortable with self sacrifice for the greater good. Lelianna thinks its romantic.

[DPSSOC]

Bhatair wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

The anvil is a good deal, you trade one warrior for an even stronger, harder to kill warrior.  The Anvil is a tool, there is nothing evil about it.  Now if you round up people and force them to become Golems then yes you are evil but the Anvil is still just the tool.  If people, fully knowing what they're agreeing to, volunteer to be made Golems for the good of their people where's the harm?

Right, because that worked out so well the first time

Which brings up an important thing to remember, "If you build it people will find ways to do horrible things to one another with it."

Sialater wrote...

At the price of many slaves being made.  When is the price too high?

When I have to pay.

[eschilde]

Sialater wrote...

Also, I keep coming across a dialogue Lelianna and Alistair have. In it, they talk about that "Good of the many outweigh the good of the one," concept.

The one with the moral center supposedly pointing due north (Al) is uncomfortable with self sacrifice for the greater good. Lelianna thinks its romantic.

Actually it was more "You have to think about the big picture," not about self-sacrifice at all? If you're talking about the one about leaving Lothering behind. Alistair isn't uncomfortable with self-sacrifice at all; in fact, he would prefer to be martyred to doing other things. 

[Sialater]

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Also, I keep coming across a dialogue Lelianna and Alistair have. In it, they talk about that "Good of the many outweigh the good of the one," concept.

The one with the moral center supposedly pointing due north (Al) is uncomfortable with self sacrifice for the greater good. Lelianna thinks its romantic.

Actually it was more "You have to think about the big picture," not about self-sacrifice at all? If you're talking about the one about leaving Lothering behind. Alistair isn't uncomfortable with self-sacrifice at all; in fact, he would prefer to be martyred to doing other things. 

I don't know.  That wasn't the impression I took away from it.  But I have no way to actually find this dialogue at the moment to dissect it.   I took away that he wasn't cool with it given his reaction to the ritual.

[Bhatair]

* Alistair: So what do you think will happen to all those people we left behind in Lothering?

* Leliana: Some of them will find their way to Denerim. Many will die. As the Maker wills.

* Alistair: Don't you wish you could have stayed there? To help more people, I mean?

* Leliana: If the Blight isn't stopped, everyone will die. This is the greater good we're serving, both of us, right here.

* Alistair: So it's all right to let some people die for the greater good? I... I'm not so sure about that. I felt bad leaving all those people there, all panicked and helpless.

* Leliana: You're doing what you must, Alistair. There will be worse to come yet... you will need to steel yourself, you know this.

* Alistair: I've never been very good at that. The steeling myself part. I find it better sometimes to just be a little weak. I'm all right with that, really.

* Leliana: I don't believe you. And either way, it's not as if any of us has a choice.



This conversation?

[eschilde]

Sialater wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Also, I keep coming across a dialogue Lelianna and Alistair have. In it, they talk about that "Good of the many outweigh the good of the one," concept.

The one with the moral center supposedly pointing due north (Al) is uncomfortable with self sacrifice for the greater good. Lelianna thinks its romantic.

Actually it was more "You have to think about the big picture," not about self-sacrifice at all? If you're talking about the one about leaving Lothering behind. Alistair isn't uncomfortable with self-sacrifice at all; in fact, he would prefer to be martyred to doing other things. 

I don't know.  That wasn't the impression I took away from it.  But I have no way to actually find this dialogue at the moment to dissect it.   I took away that he wasn't cool with it given his reaction to the ritual.

From the wiki:

Alistair: So what do you think will happen to all those people we left behind in Lothering?
Leliana: Some of them will find their way to Denerim. Many will die. As the Maker wills.
Alistair: Don't you wish you could have stayed there? To help more people, I mean?
Leliana: If the Blight isn't stopped, everyone will die. This is the greater good we're serving, both of us, right here.
Alistair: So it's all right to let some people die for the greater good? I... I'm not so sure about that. I felt bad leaving all those people there, all panicked and helpless.
Leliana: You're doing what you must, Alistair. There will be worse to come yet... you will need to steel yourself, you know this.
Alistair: I've never been very good at that. The steeling myself part. I find it better sometimes to just be a little weak. I'm all right with that, really.
Leliana: I don't believe you. And either way, it's not as if any of us has a choice.

Alistair wants to save everyone, he doesn't mind sacrificing himself for that, he's just upset that there was no perfect solution, at least that is the impression I got. Being a little weak, in his case, is not wanting to make a hard decision.

Modifié par eschilde, 07 janvier 2010 - 04:09 .

[Sialater]

Bhatair wrote...

* Alistair: So what do you think will happen to all those people we left behind in Lothering?
* Leliana: Some of them will find their way to Denerim. Many will die. As the Maker wills.
* Alistair: Don't you wish you could have stayed there? To help more people, I mean?
* Leliana: If the Blight isn't stopped, everyone will die. This is the greater good we're serving, both of us, right here.
* Alistair: So it's all right to let some people die for the greater good? I... I'm not so sure about that. I felt bad leaving all those people there, all panicked and helpless.
* Leliana: You're doing what you must, Alistair. There will be worse to come yet... you will need to steel yourself, you know this.
* Alistair: I've never been very good at that. The steeling myself part. I find it better sometimes to just be a little weak. I'm all right with that, really.
* Leliana: I don't believe you. And either way, it's not as if any of us has a choice.

This conversation?

Exactly, thank you, Bhatair.  It's one of those conversations that can be taken a couple ways, apparently.

The bolded part is what I keep thinking about.

[Bhatair]

eschilde wrote...



Alistair wants to save everyone, he doesn't mind sacrificing himself for that, he's just upset that there was no perfect solution, at least that is the impression I got. Being a little weak, in his case, is not wanting to make a hard decision.

Same here. Er.. that is to say that's how I understood it

Modifié par Bhatair, 07 janvier 2010 - 04:11 .

[Sialater]

Well, that's consistent with his reaction to Redcliffe, yelling at you if you did anything other than option "C".

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

Well, that's consistent with his reaction to Redcliffe, yelling at you if you did anything other than option "C".

And with his overall character. His big flaw is not wanting to make decisions.