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[ReubenLiew]

So he's your average politician?

[Herr Uhl]

ReubenLiew wrote...

So he's your average politician?

That is why everybody and their aunt want him as king.

[Sialater]

To paraphrase Heinlein, politics is the main reason we're not all out killing each other in the streets. It's just open to abuse.

[eschilde]

ReubenLiew wrote...

So he's your average politician?

Newp, the average politician saves his own ass first. At least Alistair's willing to sacrifice his own body ^^

[ReubenLiew]

Not if you believe Mccain...

[eschilde]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Not if you believe Mccain...

If you are saying McCain is an average politician, you are wrong.
If you are saying McCain thinks average politicians are willing to sacrifice their own bodies for the greater good, he's probably wrong.

Just sayin'.

[robertthebard]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Well, that's consistent with his reaction to Redcliffe, yelling at you if you did anything other than option "C".

And with his overall character. His big flaw is not wanting to make decisions.

I actually see it as not wanting to be responsible for making the big decisions.  He's perfectly fine with deciding to tell you what you should have done.  So long as he's got plausible deniability, he's perfectly happy, which does make him the perfect politician, since they always have somebody else they can blame if something blows up, and can feel free to claim credit if it doesn't.

Since I really hate how this forum works regarding multiple quotes, regarding the Anvil:

A tool is only as bad as the person that wields it.  While the golems were people that volunteered for it, knowing full well what it meant, there was no harm being done.  The people that gave up their lives, in essence, to become golems did so for a noble reason.  Once it became a tool to remove political enemies, the person or persons  "conscripting" people to be golems are to blame, not the tool.  One of those people is dead, the other a golem.  Cairidin regrets the non-volunteer's being used in such a fashion.  He's not all gung ho about destroying the Anvil because the Anvil is evil, but because it can be opened to abuse as it was before.  He wants to remove the temptation.

Regarding the ritual; we have no idea whether that offspring is going to be good or bad.  I do sincerely hope that it doesn't turn into a Child of Bhaal thing.  It was great in BG, but it's cliche to go there now.

[IronWolf1987]

I'd like to clarify a few things. First thanks to everyone for engaging in this discussion with me, I've enjoyed it a lot.



Anyway back to the topic at hand. My PC doesn't necessarily trust Morrigan more than Anora, rather he feels that Morrigan is a threat that can be handled much easier than Anora is. Lets take the worst case scenarios from my PC's point of view:



The worst case scenario with going through the ritual is that all but Alistair dies, and Morrigan comes back some years later with the power of an old god. My PC firmly believes that Alistair will strengthen Ferelden, rebuild it's Grey Wardens and have it ready to face any threat. Furthermore while an Old God is formidable it can be defeated or else the first blight would have ended everything. Furthermore with Alistair knowing about the ritual and Morrigan, he has ample time to make preparation if Morrigan does return to cause destruction.



Now the worst case scenario with refusing the ritual. My PC hardly believes that he and alistair are the only ones that will work for Morrigan's ritual (just simply the best options) and that there is a very good possibility she'll get her god child one way or the other, but with my PC and Alistair dead who is going to stop her? Anora? Hardly she is her Father's Daughter and can not be trusted to rebuild Ferelden and unite it. My PC firmly believes she won't invite the Grey Wardens back, and that if anything she'll cause more unrest like her father. Not only does this leave everyone screwed if Morrigan does have a contingency (which she probably does) but also screwed if the Darkspawn aren't truly defeated (also a possibility considering how many warnings my PC received about how people got complacent after a blight and paid for it)



Now my MC could be wrong in all his assumptions. Anora may be an excellent ruler and unite Ferelden and the Grey Wardens (though he has no reason to believe consider it was a GW who killed her dad) and he could be wrong about Morrigan having a contigency, perhaps he and alister are the only ones that will work for the ritual (again my PC knows Morrigan and her Mom, you don't live like they did without having all the angles covered) But if that's the case I would submit that it still doesn't make my PC a bad or evil person for going through with the ritual rather it just makes him wrong on some of his plans. My point overall point being that I feel you can still be a Good, Brave, Worthy GW without going with the sacrifice ending.

[Greenphrog]

I had many of the same thouths. In the end how can you trade one evil for another? Lucky did not trust Mizz M to have every one elses intrest at heart. There was only once choice, I had to make the killing blow.

[Freckles04]

My take on the Dark Ritual is similar. My initial reaction, on my first, unspoiled playthrough, was HELL NO. My elven mage refused Morrigan and sacrificed herself. I played a human noble on my second playthrough, a metagaming decision so I could be Alistair's queen. But I did come up with a roleplaying explanation for choosing to go through with the ritual.

My Cousland firmly believes that Alistair will make a wonderful king, particularly after the "growing up" he went through after meeting his harpy sister. He knows what it's like to be a commoner; he's just and fair; he knows the art of war; he sees the good he can do as king, and therefore won't abuse his power. However, Alistair is not perfect, not by any means. He does not like making the hard decisions. He wants to save everyone, and finds it extremely difficult to acknowledge that sometimes people have to be sacrificed for the greater good. He needs someone at his side that he can trust to help him with that aspect of ruling, and honestly, Arl Eamon isn't it. That man abandoned Alistair when he was charged with caring for him, and only sees him as useful now because he's the last of the Theirin line. Anora would be a good temper to Alistair, but she's a back-stabbing, ruthless unmentionable that can't be trusted. So that leaves my Cousland, who happens to love the man dearly.

She's united the country, given Ferelden a king, and led its armies into battle. There is no denying that without her, Ferelden is weaker than it is with her. Alistair sacrificing himself is not an option; Ferelden needs him. And Alistair needs her. So Morrigan's ritual is a necessary evil. Without it, potentially all of Ferelden's heroes (my Cousland, Alistair and Riordan) die at once. With it, at least one will live, and hopefully all of them. It buys some time for Alistair and me, as his queen, to help Ferelden recover from the Blight, and to rebuild the Grey Wardens so that any lingering darkspawn can be dealt with. And, yes, I would be lying if I said there wasn't a small bit of selfishness there as well, although it doesn't negate the other reasons for going through with it. She's lost so much in her life, given up so much, that she wants this one thing for herself. Maybe that's wrong, but it makes her human.

There is also no denying that there will be a price to pay for this additional time at some later date. She's not naive, my Cousland; she hopes that Morrigan will do right by the child, but she holds no illusions about her friend and what she's capable of. She only prays, however, that her friendship with Morrigan will influence the witch's future actions with the child.

So that's my take on the Dark Ritual and why my Cousland, at any rate, goes through with it.

[Sialater]

I'm currently thinking along the same lines for Emma Cousland. But we'll see what to do about Shroedinger's baby when the time comes.

[IronWolf1987]

Freckles04 wrote...

My take on the Dark Ritual is similar. My initial reaction, on my first, unspoiled playthrough, was HELL NO. My elven mage refused Morrigan and sacrificed herself. I played a human noble on my second playthrough, a metagaming decision so I could be Alistair's queen. But I did come up with a roleplaying explanation for choosing to go through with the ritual.

My Cousland firmly believes that Alistair will make a wonderful king, particularly after the "growing up" he went through after meeting his harpy sister. He knows what it's like to be a commoner; he's just and fair; he knows the art of war; he sees the good he can do as king, and therefore won't abuse his power. However, Alistair is not perfect, not by any means. He does not like making the hard decisions. He wants to save everyone, and finds it extremely difficult to acknowledge that sometimes people have to be sacrificed for the greater good. He needs someone at his side that he can trust to help him with that aspect of ruling, and honestly, Arl Eamon isn't it. That man abandoned Alistair when he was charged with caring for him, and only sees him as useful now because he's the last of the Theirin line. Anora would be a good temper to Alistair, but she's a back-stabbing, ruthless unmentionable that can't be trusted. So that leaves my Cousland, who happens to love the man dearly.

She's united the country, given Ferelden a king, and led its armies into battle. There is no denying that without her, Ferelden is weaker than it is with her. Alistair sacrificing himself is not an option; Ferelden needs him. And Alistair needs her. So Morrigan's ritual is a necessary evil. Without it, potentially all of Ferelden's heroes (my Cousland, Alistair and Riordan) die at once. With it, at least one will live, and hopefully all of them. It buys some time for Alistair and me, as his queen, to help Ferelden recover from the Blight, and to rebuild the Grey Wardens so that any lingering darkspawn can be dealt with. And, yes, I would be lying if I said there wasn't a small bit of selfishness there as well, although it doesn't negate the other reasons for going through with it. She's lost so much in her life, given up so much, that she wants this one thing for herself. Maybe that's wrong, but it makes her human.

There is also no denying that there will be a price to pay for this additional time at some later date. She's not naive, my Cousland; she hopes that Morrigan will do right by the child, but she holds no illusions about her friend and what she's capable of. She only prays, however, that her friendship with Morrigan will influence the witch's future actions with the child.

So that's my take on the Dark Ritual and why my Cousland, at any rate, goes through with it.

I think that's a pretty cool sotry there. What my biggest concern is that when the expansion comes it's going to be all the good wardens gave their life and sacrificed your self, while all the bad ones either went with the ritual or didn't make the final blow.

[IronWolf1987]

Greenphrog wrote...

I had many of the same thouths. In the end how can you trade one evil for another? Lucky did not trust Mizz M to have every one elses intrest at heart. There was only once choice, I had to make the killing blow.

Well to my PC it was pretty simple with Anora evil the game is over. With the Morrigan evil the game just goes to OT and you can still win.

[eschilde]

Without it, potentially all of Ferelden's heroes (my Cousland, Alistair and Riordan) die at once. With it, at least one will live, and hopefully all of them.

Actually, the ritual does not guarantee anyone will live. It only saves you from dying from taking the archdemon killblow. Potentially the archdemon could kill all three of you and not die. Although, in that case Morrigan wouldn't get her demonbaby anyway

[Freckles04]

eschilde wrote...

Without it, potentially all of Ferelden's heroes (my Cousland, Alistair and Riordan) die at once. With it, at least one will live, and hopefully all of them.

Actually, the ritual does not guarantee anyone will live. It only saves you from dying from taking the archdemon killblow. Potentially the archdemon could kill all three of you and not die. Although, in that case Morrigan wouldn't get her demonbaby anyway

Good point. I was going on the assumption that at least one Warden would make it through to the archdemon, if only through sheer willpower alone.

[Recidiva]

Question to those who think you do the dark ritual...and to addressing thinking it works out for the greater good somehow...



I get it when you're making a sacrifice of self or a sacrifice of someone who volunteered. That's what made Shayle noble and makes anyone who takes the final blow (sans deal) (voluntarily...not in the case of Loghain, who is coerced into it, basically...his choices are...death...or...death) noble.



But how exactly is the baby volunteering for anything? I think the child is certainly headed for being tortured and warped in the manner that Flemeth tortured and warped Morrigan at best. At worst, much worse. Virtual body and mind slavery for an extended lifetime.



Sacrifice is something that's chosen. Not something you choose for someone else. Because then it's murder and slavery and subjugation. And letting Morrigan choose for you is being entirely beyond irresponsible.



Considering Loghain made "every sacrifice" he deemed necessary, only that he never made a personal sacrifice, he just volunteered other people to sacrifice...how does this make you any different from Loghain's methods?



At which point is abdicating responsibility (trusting that Morrigan will...do the right thing...inexplicably and against all evidence to the contrary) and resorting to...torturing and sacrificing a baby...not gray and not ending a blight, but just raw selfish ambition?



If you think that Morrigan's got anybody's best interests in mind, it is as silly to me as saying that Loghain just didn't know what Howe was up to.



You're not ending the blight by taking Morrigan's deal by any stretch of the imagination. You are in fact allowing the blight to take on human intelligence. You are extending the blight. The means you're resorting to are not only counter to your goals, but only catering to personal weakness and inability to make sacrifices, making someone else pay the price for you. In this case, a baby of all things.



The final benefit for me is to have hardened Alistair and Anora marry, to have Loghain or me take the final blow.



I can't see how even in a Grey Warden sense that you're ending the blight in any way. What you're doing is justifying extending someone's life (a life of a Grey Warden whose motto is...in death...sacrifice...not...in death...weaseling out by resorting to blackest magic...) and that's it.



You can end the blight without taking Morrigan's deal. It's a selfish motivation entirely, no matter how I've seen it spun here.



Unless someone can give it another try without telling me that Morrigan's deal does anything other than preserve the life of one Grey Warden. One Grey Warden whose job it is to end the blight, which can be accomplished with ending the life of a Grey Warden.



So I don't get it. Maybe I never will, but I am not seeing how it's in any way an noble thing or even a pragmatic thing. It's an evil, selfish thing that puts you pretty much firmly in the company of the bad guys.

[IronWolf1987]

Recidiva wrote...

Question to those who think you do the dark ritual...and to addressing thinking it works out for the greater good somehow...

I get it when you're making a sacrifice of self or a sacrifice of someone who volunteered. That's what made Shayle noble and makes anyone who takes the final blow (sans deal) (voluntarily...not in the case of Loghain, who is coerced into it, basically...his choices are...death...or...death) noble.

But how exactly is the baby volunteering for anything? I think the child is certainly headed for being tortured and warped in the manner that Flemeth tortured and warped Morrigan at best. At worst, much worse. Virtual body and mind slavery for an extended lifetime.

Sacrifice is something that's chosen. Not something you choose for someone else. Because then it's murder and slavery and subjugation. And letting Morrigan choose for you is being entirely beyond irresponsible.

Considering Loghain made "every sacrifice" he deemed necessary, only that he never made a personal sacrifice, he just volunteered other people to sacrifice...how does this make you any different from Loghain's methods?

At which point is abdicating responsibility (trusting that Morrigan will...do the right thing...inexplicably and against all evidence to the contrary) and resorting to...torturing and sacrificing a baby...not gray and not ending a blight, but just raw selfish ambition?

If you think that Morrigan's got anybody's best interests in mind, it is as silly to me as saying that Loghain just didn't know what Howe was up to.

You're not ending the blight by taking Morrigan's deal by any stretch of the imagination. You are in fact allowing the blight to take on human intelligence. You are extending the blight. The means you're resorting to are not only counter to your goals, but only catering to personal weakness and inability to make sacrifices, making someone else pay the price for you. In this case, a baby of all things.

The final benefit for me is to have hardened Alistair and Anora marry, to have Loghain or me take the final blow.

I can't see how even in a Grey Warden sense that you're ending the blight in any way. What you're doing is justifying extending someone's life (a life of a Grey Warden whose motto is...in death...sacrifice...not...in death...weaseling out by resorting to blackest magic...) and that's it.

You can end the blight without taking Morrigan's deal. It's a selfish motivation entirely, no matter how I've seen it spun here.

Unless someone can give it another try without telling me that Morrigan's deal does anything other than preserve the life of one Grey Warden. One Grey Warden whose job it is to end the blight, which can be accomplished with ending the life of a Grey Warden.

So I don't get it. Maybe I never will, but I am not seeing how it's in any way an noble thing or even a pragmatic thing. It's an evil, selfish thing that puts you pretty much firmly in the company of the bad guys.

Because as far as I'm concered there is no stopping of Morrigan from getting her baby. It's ridiculous to think that all of her goals rested on being able to sleep with just two men. Especially since she annoyed and irritated at least one of them, and quite possibly both. Flemeth sent her with the warden to get the baby period, and I sincerely doubt that me telling her to go away is going to stop her. Why wouldn't she have a plan B if this was in fact her life's work? Now if the warden had the option of not only telling her no and then chopping her to tiny bits to prevent her or flemeth from ever doing their evil again, then that would be different. My warden has no problem sacrificing him self, but there is no way in hell he's gona sacrifice himself and still let the bad guys win.

[eschilde]

You can end the blight without taking Morrigan's deal. It's a selfish motivation entirely, no matter how I've seen it spun here.

Ah, then it turns into a throwback to the selfishness thread. I don't think they're arguing about its selfishness, only that they think they will be able to do more if their PC remains alive. I don't think there's any way to spin it so that doing the ritual isn't selfish, but to justify that it could be for the greater good, sure. It's not noble, but pragmatic, possibly.



All the GWs have motivations to see things get better from their origins. In a PC+Alistair in the final battle scenario, with Alistair hardened and to be put on the throne (with or without Anora) you may feel that Alistair absolutely cannot die, but that you also want your PC to live to oversee whatever the future may be. The only person you can control is yourself, and you probably have huge influence on Alistair, so the two of you living could potentially have better effects than one of you dying.

[TSamee]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

I think that's a pretty cool sotry there. What my biggest concern is that when the expansion comes it's going to be all the good wardens gave their life and sacrificed your self, while all the bad ones either went with the ritual or didn't make the final blow.

Good Warden? Bad? Maybe I'm wrong here, and no offense meant to you, but I feel that DA had many choices that could pan out in any way in future, and that it shows us that these decisions rest on emotions and dispositions too, not just a sense of morality.

My Warden went through with the Ritual because, fool that he was, he fell in love with the swamp witch. He didn't want her to go, and he felt that, despite her obviously having an ulterior motive, her plan was the best possible choice at the time. From a cold, logical standpoint, she can't really do much damage with the child in terms of making it "evil" or possessing it for a few years; time in which my Warden could try tracking her down, or gather more information.

And, to be honest, there is always the possibility that, in spite of any larger plans, Morrigan's time with the Warden actually did change her outlook a bit (provided you entered the relationship, but picked the typical "good guy" dialogue with her anyway). Hell, I'm probably being overly romantic (and stupid, to boot), but people do change, for better or for worse. We all do. So why not Morrigan?

I'd make a lengthier post, but I've given my views and hopes on the Morrigan issue in the majority of my posts so far. They're all prettymuch along these lines.

Keep in mind that I do know she could have just coldly manipulated you and played the loveless, unsure role purely so that you'd try and swing her round to your point of view, thus entering a relationship with her, and making you putty in her hands to carry out the Ritual. I just don't want to believe that.

[Jules8445]

*winces as she types because she's seen some of the anti/pro Alistair threads*

Am I the only sap that agreed to the dark ritual because her character was madly in love with Alistair and it was the only way to keep one of them from dying?

I was seriously spazzing for a happily ever after...

I think Morrigan's reasoning was that she's wanted to get in Alistair's pants the whole game I snorted and told her to shove it the first time I played through that part....then had to go back and do it over when I realized that one of us was really going to die.

On to reality though.

I couldn't imagine killing off either Alistair or my character...even beyond my personal bias. In my game Alistair wasn't king, I never saw him as the king type, and he was really happy and fulfilled by being a GW. I'm a pleaser, so I went through the game trying to make everyone as happy as possible. For Alistair, this meant him staying a Warden.

There aren't many wardens left and the PC is about as green as you get as far as the order is concerned. Alistiar is only 6 months ahead of her, but he actually lived/studied/learned from the GW's, if you're going to rebuild the order in Fereldan, you're going to need him to help. Maybe I'm an isolationist...but I don't necessarily want all the foreign GW's coming in and doing all the re-establishment.

Anoura is a tool about her father...but he's her father...pretty much everyone ignores her about that stuff anyway, and at least my epilogue said that she did a really great job as Queen.

As to Morrigan's reasoning...I like what I'm hearing about how Flemmeth used her children. I think that's probably what Morrigan is up to. My brother proposed that this was what Morrigan was from really early on in the game and I think she's looking to reproduce it with Alistair's demon bastard baby.

(By the way...I love the conversation at the end if you tell Alistair he needs to tell the foreign Wardens the truth. Paraphrasing...but, "You want me to tell them you were saved by a maleficar who then ran off to have my demon child? I think I'll keep that to myself."

Maybe I'll get flamed for that...and I know I'm a bit of a newb around here...but that's what I thought about the whole situation...and it's probably what I'll end up doing every time I have a female character. Darn my knight in shining armor complex!

Modifié par Jules8445, 07 janvier 2010 - 06:29 .

[Freckles04]

I did say that selfishness factored into the decision. The other reasons I stated are still valid (in my and my Cousland's mind). She doesn't want to die, she doesn't want Alistair to die, and she wants both of them to be there for their country, which needs them. That's the immediate result (hopefully). The child is something that will happen later, and she's not thinking about that, not really. Is that wrong? Most likely. Does it make her evil? No. I wholeheartedly believe that. She's doing what she thinks is best for her country. Maybe it's only what's best in the short-term, but it's better than the short-term alternative.

I'm not a member of the "baby will be evil" bandwagon. This game is all about shades of grey. I don't believe that either Flemeth or Morrigan are evil, either. Ruthless, yes. Not nice, yes. But truly evil? It's open for debate.

At any rate, it's a personal choice to go through with the ritual or not. I have my take on it, and others have theirs, and everyone is welcome to their own opinion.:happy:

[DPSSOC]

Recidiva wrote...

You're not ending the blight by taking Morrigan's deal by any stretch of the imagination. You are in fact allowing the blight to take on human intelligence. You are extending the blight. The means you're resorting to are not only counter to your goals, but only catering to personal weakness and inability to make sacrifices, making someone else pay the price for you. In this case, a baby of all things.

 
Show me where it says the baby will continue the Blight?  Now maybe the Darkspawn will find and follow the Child but this presents an interesting opportunity, the ability to reason with the thing standing at the front of the horde.  With an entity that can be reasoned with you could end all Blights ever because as long as they've got an Old God to follow they aren't looking for another one.

Recidiva wrote...
I can't see how even in a Grey Warden sense that you're ending the blight in any way. What you're doing is justifying extending someone's life (a life of a Grey Warden whose motto is...in death...sacrifice...not...in death...weaseling out by resorting to blackest magic...) and that's it.

You can end the blight without taking Morrigan's deal. It's a selfish motivation entirely, no matter how I've seen it spun here.

You're right it's "In death, sacrifice" not "in victory, sacrifice".  Your goal is to slay the Archdemon if you choose not to take Morrigan's deal then you kill it you die, that's it.  If you take Morrigan's deal then you kill it, you live, you go on to kill more darkspawn until you die in the Deep Roads killing darkspawn.  Taking Morrigan's deal gives you the opportunity to go on killing darkspawn, the job of all Grey Wardens, and with the army you've gathered and the stardom you're enjoying you might be able to make a push into the Deep Roads and reclaim some Dwarven territory or possibly wipe out the Darkspawn entirely.  The potential good you can do over the next 30 years isn't something to be dismissed and guess what the Blight's still over.  I think you're looking at it wrong; the Grey Wardens don't sacrifice themselves to kill the Archdemon out of nobility or morality, they do it because it's the only way to stop the thing.  If they could find a way to stop the Archdemon without sacrificing one of their own I'm sure they'd jump on it.

Recidiva wrote...
So I don't get it. Maybe I never will, but I am not seeing how it's in any way an noble thing or even a pragmatic thing.

You, or the other GW, survive that's one more person doing good and killing darkspawn for the next 30 years.  It's not much but it's more than you've got without the deal.

[Sialater]

You don't know that you're extending the Blight, Recidiva, even metagaming. The Darkspawn take on intelligence whether you did the ritual or not.





As far as dumping your responsibilities on a child... I don't see it that way. This child would not exist without this ritual, this archdemon, this chance, these two or three or four people.



And ultimately, I don't see making this child an evil choice. At all. Because I don't believe Morrigan is inherently evil.

[Recidiva]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

Because as far as I'm concered there is no stopping of Morrigan from getting her baby. It's ridiculous to think that all of her goals rested on being able to sleep with just two men. Especially since she annoyed and irritated at least one of them, and quite possibly both. Flemeth sent her with the warden to get the baby period, and I sincerely doubt that me telling her to go away is going to stop her. Why wouldn't she have a plan B if this was in fact her life's work? Now if the warden had the option of not only telling her no and then chopping her to tiny bits to prevent her or flemeth from ever doing their evil again, then that would be different. My warden has no problem sacrificing him self, but there is no way in hell he's gona sacrifice himself and still let the bad guys win.

I can't stop all manner of evil from happening.  But you're choosing to facilitate it.  Sounds like a drug dealer saying "Hey, they'd get it somewhere else" and absolving themselves of all responsibility of being the one that makes it possible in the first place.

If it were possible to kill Morrigan in the game upon finding out about her deal, I'd do it without hesitation.  More than a little angry that I can kill Flemeth but I let Morrigan get away, knowing what she's going to do?  What the hell kind of sense does that make?

[Jules8445]

Did anyone else get the conversation consequences where Alistair asks Morrigan about the baby?  She's suprised that my character told him the truth...but seems earnest in her reply.

She outright promises him that she won't use the kid against Fereldan.  I mean, I guess she could be lying....but *shrugs*