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[Recidiva]

eschilde wrote...

Ah, then it turns into a throwback to the selfishness thread. I don't think they're arguing about its selfishness, only that they think they will be able to do more if their PC remains alive. I don't think there's any way to spin it so that doing the ritual isn't selfish, but to justify that it could be for the greater good, sure. It's not noble, but pragmatic, possibly.

All the GWs have motivations to see things get better from their origins. In a PC+Alistair in the final battle scenario, with Alistair hardened and to be put on the throne (with or without Anora) you may feel that Alistair absolutely cannot die, but that you also want your PC to live to oversee whatever the future may be. The only person you can control is yourself, and you probably have huge influence on Alistair, so the two of you living could potentially have better effects than one of you dying.

I get it as a personal selfishness thing.  That's the only way it makes sense, despite any pretty words framing it.

I'm just not buying it in any sense as being good, or ending the blight or any other motivation other than "I get something out of it, that's why."

That's fine and I'm not really questioning that at all.  I'm only questioning the "But in the end it's better if..."  No...no, I don't think so. 

I don't even buy it as pragmatic in any sense.  Alistair and Loghain are both ultimately willing to sacrifice themselves even if the PC isn't. 

Morrigan's hook is entirely based on the idea that the PC can convince Alistair or Loghain of anything, and she couldn't do it without you. 

And the argument that everyone in Ferelden is too damned stupid to manage without you might be a real argument in a game sense, but it isn't a "right" thing to do.  Ferelden has to produce a decent leader at some point, but the price they pay for it can't be that you stick around while you let Morrigan go her way and do whatever.  

Hardened Alistair does a decent job on his own without you.  Hardened alistair married to Anora produce a golden age.

The PC is entirely expendable.

[eschilde]

@Jules8845 If Morrigan's anything like Flemeth, that's pretty believable. Flemeth doesn't give a flying **** about Fereldan's right of succession, and she doesn't appear to have ever made a grab for that particular kind of power, though she probably could have if she wanted to.



@Recidiva well, if you're making that kind of analogy you should probably add that that drug dealer is also setting up rehab clinics :b

[Recidiva]

Jules8445 wrote...

*winces as she types because she's seen some of the anti/pro Alistair threads*

Am I the only sap that agreed to the dark ritual because her character was madly in love with Alistair and it was the only way to keep one of them from dying?

I was seriously spazzing for a happily ever after...

I think Morrigan's reasoning was that she's wanted to get in Alistair's pants the whole game I snorted and told her to shove it the first time I played through that part....then had to go back and do it over when I realized that one of us was really going to die.

On to reality though.

I couldn't imagine killing off either Alistair or my character...even beyond my personal bias. In my game Alistair wasn't king, I never saw him as the king type, and he was really happy and fulfilled by being a GW. I'm a pleaser, so I went through the game trying to make everyone as happy as possible. For Alistair, this meant him staying a Warden.

There aren't many wardens left and the PC is about as green as you get as far as the order is concerned. Alistiar is only 6 months ahead of her, but he actually lived/studied/learned from the GW's, if you're going to rebuild the order in Fereldan, you're going to need him to help. Maybe I'm an isolationist...but I don't necessarily want all the foreign GW's coming in and doing all the re-establishment.

Anoura is a tool about her father...but he's her father...pretty much everyone ignores her about that stuff anyway, and at least my epilogue said that she did a really great job as Queen.

As to Morrigan's reasoning...I like what I'm hearing about how Flemmeth used her children. I think that's probably what Morrigan is up to. My brother proposed that this was what Morrigan was from really early on in the game and I think she's looking to reproduce it with Alistair's demon bastard baby.

(By the way...I love the conversation at the end if you tell Alistair he needs to tell the foreign Wardens the truth. Paraphrasing...but, "You want me to tell them you were saved by a maleficar who then ran off to have my demon child? I think I'll keep that to myself."

Maybe I'll get flamed for that...and I know I'm a bit of a newb around here...but that's what I thought about the whole situation...and it's probably what I'll end up doing every time I have a female character. Darn my knight in shining armor complex!

Even in the sense of "love" I think it's an entirely selfish love.  Alistair deserves better, I think.  He certainly wanted to live up to higher standards and I certainly felt that as the PC, if I made him do the deed, I was betraying everything he stood for and using my power over him for a vile purpose.

If he grows up to any extent and becomes a good leader, he'll grow to resent the PC for being manipulative and selfish, and resent and hate his part in it.

The only way to "love" Alistair at that point is to continue to control him and not let him have any opinions of his own.  Not really loving.

[Sialater]

Jules8445 wrote...

Did anyone else get the conversation consequences where Alistair asks Morrigan about the baby?  She's suprised that my character told him the truth...but seems earnest in her reply.

She outright promises him that she won't use the kid against Fereldan.  I mean, I guess she could be lying....but *shrugs*

No, I got that, too.  He didn't object.  At all.  I found it surprising the guy they set up as the "moral center" accepts so readily if you don't manipulate him into it, just be up front about it.  If I'd had to use a persuade check, or lie to him, I would have said no way and left his butt at  the gate and suicided the archdemon myself, because the PC IS expendable.  (To everyone except Zevran and Lelianna, that is.)

[Eruanna Guerrein]

Herr Uhl wrote...

So, generally you reason that Ferelden needs GW and that it would not survive without them?

If you say that all three of you die, and you kill the archdemon, then there is no need for GW, unless a new archdemon were to appear. If you do not kill the archdemon, well it's the same scenario whether you greased Morrigans shaft or not.

So it comes down to you thinking that Morrigans baby is less hazardous than Anora as Queen alone?

There will be another archdemon, although it generally takes about 4 centuries for the darkspawn to find the next one. Riordan also mentions that it's quite possible the archdemon purposely chose Ferelden this time because it knew it had less GWs than other countries. It's speculation but it's valid speculation since the archdemon and darkspawn can sense the GWs. There is always a reason to rebuild the order.

[Jules8445]

eschilde wrote...

@Jules8845 If Morrigan's anything like Flemeth, that's pretty believable. Flemeth doesn't give a flying **** about Fereldan's right of succession, and she doesn't appear to have ever made a grab for that particular kind of power, though she probably could have if she wanted to.

@Recidiva well, if you're making that kind of analogy you should probably add that that drug dealer is also setting up rehab clinics :b

Exactly!  If Flemeth had wanted to take the whole darn place over, she probably would have done it.  She's not out for that, though.  I really don't think Morrigan is either.  I think she's got her own reasons for doing what she's going to do. 

Maybe it was a selfish thing to do, but I don't think it necessarily hurts or helps the country.  Like I said, I'm a pleaser.  I really think it would have made Alistair miserable to force him into something he never wanted. 

Besides, marrying him to Anoura in my game was simply rediculous considering what had happened between his character and mine during the rest of the game. 

I like the way it turned out...nobody but Morrigan was really happy about the situation...but everyone seemed to trust her word.  Flemeth is one of those demon-invested people...and while she's strange...and done some morally questionable things, she's never been a thread to Ferelden.   

I say let Morrigan have her little piece of Alistair.  According to him my chara was his first...he got a ltitle taste of the grass being greener on the other side before he was sadled with my chara. for life. 

[Sialater]

Recidiva wrote...

Jules8445 wrote...

*winces as she types because she's seen some of the anti/pro Alistair threads*

Am I the only sap that agreed to the dark ritual because her character was madly in love with Alistair and it was the only way to keep one of them from dying?

I was seriously spazzing for a happily ever after...

I think Morrigan's reasoning was that she's wanted to get in Alistair's pants the whole game I snorted and told her to shove it the first time I played through that part....then had to go back and do it over when I realized that one of us was really going to die.

On to reality though.

I couldn't imagine killing off either Alistair or my character...even beyond my personal bias. In my game Alistair wasn't king, I never saw him as the king type, and he was really happy and fulfilled by being a GW. I'm a pleaser, so I went through the game trying to make everyone as happy as possible. For Alistair, this meant him staying a Warden.

There aren't many wardens left and the PC is about as green as you get as far as the order is concerned. Alistiar is only 6 months ahead of her, but he actually lived/studied/learned from the GW's, if you're going to rebuild the order in Fereldan, you're going to need him to help. Maybe I'm an isolationist...but I don't necessarily want all the foreign GW's coming in and doing all the re-establishment.

Anoura is a tool about her father...but he's her father...pretty much everyone ignores her about that stuff anyway, and at least my epilogue said that she did a really great job as Queen.

As to Morrigan's reasoning...I like what I'm hearing about how Flemmeth used her children. I think that's probably what Morrigan is up to. My brother proposed that this was what Morrigan was from really early on in the game and I think she's looking to reproduce it with Alistair's demon bastard baby.

(By the way...I love the conversation at the end if you tell Alistair he needs to tell the foreign Wardens the truth. Paraphrasing...but, "You want me to tell them you were saved by a maleficar who then ran off to have my demon child? I think I'll keep that to myself."

Maybe I'll get flamed for that...and I know I'm a bit of a newb around here...but that's what I thought about the whole situation...and it's probably what I'll end up doing every time I have a female character. Darn my knight in shining armor complex!

Even in the sense of "love" I think it's an entirely selfish love.  Alistair deserves better, I think.  He certainly wanted to live up to higher standards and I certainly felt that as the PC, if I made him do the deed, I was betraying everything he stood for and using my power over him for a vile purpose.

If he grows up to any extent and becomes a good leader, he'll grow to resent the PC for being manipulative and selfish, and resent and hate his part in it.

The only way to "love" Alistair at that point is to continue to control him and not let him have any opinions of his own.  Not really loving.

But you don't have to manipulate him to do it.  I told him everything.  I didn't even tell him I think he should do it.  I told him he should talk to Morrigan.  HE decided to do it.

[Jules8445]

Recidiva wrote...

Jules8445 wrote...

*winces as she types because she's seen some of the anti/pro Alistair threads*

Am I the only sap that agreed to the dark ritual because her character was madly in love with Alistair and it was the only way to keep one of them from dying?

I was seriously spazzing for a happily ever after...

I think Morrigan's reasoning was that she's wanted to get in Alistair's pants the whole game I snorted and told her to shove it the first time I played through that part....then had to go back and do it over when I realized that one of us was really going to die.

On to reality though.

I couldn't imagine killing off either Alistair or my character...even beyond my personal bias. In my game Alistair wasn't king, I never saw him as the king type, and he was really happy and fulfilled by being a GW. I'm a pleaser, so I went through the game trying to make everyone as happy as possible. For Alistair, this meant him staying a Warden.

There aren't many wardens left and the PC is about as green as you get as far as the order is concerned. Alistiar is only 6 months ahead of her, but he actually lived/studied/learned from the GW's, if you're going to rebuild the order in Fereldan, you're going to need him to help. Maybe I'm an isolationist...but I don't necessarily want all the foreign GW's coming in and doing all the re-establishment.

Anoura is a tool about her father...but he's her father...pretty much everyone ignores her about that stuff anyway, and at least my epilogue said that she did a really great job as Queen.

As to Morrigan's reasoning...I like what I'm hearing about how Flemmeth used her children. I think that's probably what Morrigan is up to. My brother proposed that this was what Morrigan was from really early on in the game and I think she's looking to reproduce it with Alistair's demon bastard baby.

(By the way...I love the conversation at the end if you tell Alistair he needs to tell the foreign Wardens the truth. Paraphrasing...but, "You want me to tell them you were saved by a maleficar who then ran off to have my demon child? I think I'll keep that to myself."

Maybe I'll get flamed for that...and I know I'm a bit of a newb around here...but that's what I thought about the whole situation...and it's probably what I'll end up doing every time I have a female character. Darn my knight in shining armor complex!

Even in the sense of "love" I think it's an entirely selfish love.  Alistair deserves better, I think.  He certainly wanted to live up to higher standards and I certainly felt that as the PC, if I made him do the deed, I was betraying everything he stood for and using my power over him for a vile purpose.

If he grows up to any extent and becomes a good leader, he'll grow to resent the PC for being manipulative and selfish, and resent and hate his part in it.

The only way to "love" Alistair at that point is to continue to control him and not let him have any opinions of his own.  Not really loving.

I'm with the other person though....I didn't use any power over him whatsoever.  I just explained the situation and let him make the choice himself.  I'd have never forced him to sleep with Morrigan.  I had to grit my teeth and close my eyes while I hit the button every time.

It is a selfish love, but I don't think it'sjust on me.  I think it's both of us.

[Recidiva]

DPSSOC wrote...

Show me where it says the baby will continue the Blight?  Now maybe the Darkspawn will find and follow the Child but this presents an interesting opportunity, the ability to reason with the thing standing at the front of the horde.  With an entity that can be reasoned with you could end all Blights ever because as long as they've got an Old God to follow they aren't looking for another one.

You're right it's "In death, sacrifice" not "in victory, sacrifice".  Your goal is to slay the Archdemon if you choose not to take Morrigan's deal then you kill it you die, that's it.  If you take Morrigan's deal then you kill it, you live, you go on to kill more darkspawn until you die in the Deep Roads killing darkspawn.  Taking Morrigan's deal gives you the opportunity to go on killing darkspawn, the job of all Grey Wardens, and with the army you've gathered and the stardom you're enjoying you might be able to make a push into the Deep Roads and reclaim some Dwarven territory or possibly wipe out the Darkspawn entirely.  The potential good you can do over the next 30 years isn't something to be dismissed and guess what the Blight's still over.  I think you're looking at it wrong; the Grey Wardens don't sacrifice themselves to kill the Archdemon out of nobility or morality, they do it because it's the only way to stop the thing.  If they could find a way to stop the Archdemon without sacrificing one of their own I'm sure they'd jump on it.

You, or the other GW, survive that's one more person doing good and killing darkspawn for the next 30 years.  It's not much but it's more than you've got without the deal.

And here's the interpretation thing.  I can't see it any other way, so if you don't see it that way, cool. 

Archdemon soul goes into baby.  Extending archdemon lifecycle. Not ending it.  Extending it. 

Call it an Old God, fine.  Then why do you need Grey Warden taint as part of the package? 

Seems like you've got the power of archdemon blood, the power of the blood magic that created a Grey Warden, the soul of an Old God in a baby that...has to be created by someone with all of those elements.

In a magical sense...from all the rules of magic in Ferelden, the components do not work out to "I'm going to make an Old God and set it free in an Old God sanctuary where the Old God can be Old God at me."

To me it means:  I am going to take the tainted Old God and use the blood magic that Grey Wardens use to control that Old God.  In baby form.  Don't ask.  I won't tell.  I'll be gone.

Too many ugly variables and too much proof that Morrigan will do anything horrid to further her goals, and now she has Flemeth's Grimoire that explains exactly how to raise someone to be powerful so you can then take over the body.

So this child has components of old god, darkspawn blood, archdemon blood and blood magic and sex magic on top of that.  She's got every base of dark magic covered in one ritual.  And she withheld all the information that might have made that ritual unnecessary if she'd taken you aside for a five minute conversation somewhere around Lothering.

[Recidiva]

eschilde wrote...

@Recidiva well, if you're making that kind of analogy you should probably add that that drug dealer is also setting up rehab clinics :b

...but if the drugs weren't sold...by you...you could just focus on...rehab clinics, right?

[JTBehnke]

In my first playthrough, I agreed to the ritual for the utilitarian reason, but also because I was in love with Morrigan. What really sealed the deal for me was when Morrigan confessed that this was originally all she'd wanted, she'd grown to care for me and now wanted to make sure I survived as well as get the god child. I also respected her wishes by simply thanking her for saving me, and letting her leave without making it needlessly complicated. It was a beautiful ending to our love story, parting and knowing we'll likely never see each other again, but never forgetting the joy we shared.



Besides, Morrigan promised to raise the child to respect its origins. I like to think that while obviously part of that means she raises the child to respect his/her past as an Old God, she also teaches the child to respect the memory of his/her father, and the things that father taught Morrigan about justice, compassion, and love.

[Recidiva]

Jules8445 wrote...

I'm with the other person though....I didn't use any power over him whatsoever.  I just explained the situation and let him make the choice himself.  I'd have never forced him to sleep with Morrigan.  I had to grit my teeth and close my eyes while I hit the button every time.

It is a selfish love, but I don't think it'sjust on me.  I think it's both of us.

You think you didn't use any power over him?

Okay.

Man, am I grateful for my husband.  

Alistair has about as much will as a weathervane.  But okay.

[eschilde]

@Recidiva Well, pragmatic doesn't necessarily mean right in the moral sense, either. Taking it from an RP standpoint (so without using epilogue to support one way or another), yes, you preserve your life and the life of Alistair and/or Loghain. Yes, that is selfish. Yes, you are taking a huge risk, but given the limited information you have there is nothing to indicate that the soul of an old god inside a human body will result in another blight or that it wouldn't be something you could handle in the future (that works in reverse, too, but I'm trying to justify doing the ritual right now .



Fereldan IS too damned stupid to manage things without you, otherwise you wouldn't have to do all the **** they had you running around the whole game for. You think Anora would come to you asking for help if she didn't think she had to? She couldn't move against Loghain without help from you and Eamon. Zathrian asking you to go kill Witherfang, Orzammar asking you to go find its lost relic and put a king on its throne for them, clearing out the Circle Tower. A lot of people seriously dropped the ball, here. That isn't to say no one would rise to equivalent challenges in the future, but you know your PC can take care of any major problems, so why be in such a big hurry to throw your life away?



IMO there's not really any pragmatic justification for not letting Loghain take the killing blow, but assuming you killed him in the Landsmeet and it's down to you or Alistair, and you want Fereldan to have no reason not to remain loyal to the throne so you put him there (with Anora, but on his own is fine too I guess), and you want your PC in a position to take care of any eventual problems, sure, you can easily call this decision pragmatic.



More pragmatic than not giving Morrigan the opportunity to loose a completely unknown force in the world? That's debatable.



The best solution to this is to push Morrigan down the stairs right after you kill the archdemon. Just sayin'. (But that's not the most morally 'right' solution either

[Sialater]

Well, he IS a pixilated person, but no, there were no persuasion checks or intimidate checks in the dialogue choices I took. I even told him to talk to Morrigan. He, ultimately, said yes. I did all this because if you're in love with someone, you don't make blind decisions for them. Including pixilated people who have set themselves up to rule a fictional country.

[Sialater]

eschilde wrote...

@Recidiva Well, pragmatic doesn't necessarily mean right in the moral sense, either. Taking it from an RP standpoint (so without using epilogue to support one way or another), yes, you preserve your life and the life of Alistair and/or Loghain. Yes, that is selfish. Yes, you are taking a huge risk, but given the limited information you have there is nothing to indicate that the soul of an old god inside a human body will result in another blight or that it wouldn't be something you could handle in the future (that works in reverse, too, but I'm trying to justify doing the ritual right now .

Fereldan IS too damned stupid to manage things without you, otherwise you wouldn't have to do all the **** they had you running around the whole game for. You think Anora would come to you asking for help if she didn't think she had to? She couldn't move against Loghain without help from you and Eamon. Zathrian asking you to go kill Witherfang, Orzammar asking you to go find its lost relic and put a king on its throne for them, clearing out the Circle Tower. A lot of people seriously dropped the ball, here. That isn't to say no one would rise to equivalent challenges in the future, but you know your PC can take care of any major problems, so why be in such a big hurry to throw your life away?

IMO there's not really any pragmatic justification for not letting Loghain take the killing blow, but assuming you killed him in the Landsmeet and it's down to you or Alistair, and you want Fereldan to have no reason not to remain loyal to the throne so you put him there (with Anora, but on his own is fine too I guess), and you want your PC in a position to take care of any eventual problems, sure, you can easily call this decision pragmatic.

More pragmatic than not giving Morrigan the opportunity to loose a completely unknown force in the world? That's debatable.

The best solution to this is to push Morrigan down the stairs right after you kill the archdemon. Just sayin'. (But that's not the most morally 'right' solution either

Well, I was really tempted to track her down and run her through.....  But she was my friend and she did help slay the archdemon.....

[Jules8445]

eschilde wrote...

@Recidiva Well, pragmatic doesn't necessarily mean right in the moral sense, either. Taking it from an RP standpoint (so without using epilogue to support one way or another), yes, you preserve your life and the life of Alistair and/or Loghain. Yes, that is selfish. Yes, you are taking a huge risk, but given the limited information you have there is nothing to indicate that the soul of an old god inside a human body will result in another blight or that it wouldn't be something you could handle in the future (that works in reverse, too, but I'm trying to justify doing the ritual right now .

Fereldan IS too damned stupid to manage things without you, otherwise you wouldn't have to do all the **** they had you running around the whole game for. You think Anora would come to you asking for help if she didn't think she had to? She couldn't move against Loghain without help from you and Eamon. Zathrian asking you to go kill Witherfang, Orzammar asking you to go find its lost relic and put a king on its throne for them, clearing out the Circle Tower. A lot of people seriously dropped the ball, here. That isn't to say no one would rise to equivalent challenges in the future, but you know your PC can take care of any major problems, so why be in such a big hurry to throw your life away?

IMO there's not really any pragmatic justification for not letting Loghain take the killing blow, but assuming you killed him in the Landsmeet and it's down to you or Alistair, and you want Fereldan to have no reason not to remain loyal to the throne so you put him there (with Anora, but on his own is fine too I guess), and you want your PC in a position to take care of any eventual problems, sure, you can easily call this decision pragmatic.

More pragmatic than not giving Morrigan the opportunity to loose a completely unknown force in the world? That's debatable.

The best solution to this is to push Morrigan down the stairs right after you kill the archdemon. Just sayin'. (But that's not the most morally 'right' solution either

Lol! I seriously went looking for her to try and push her down the stairs....(I got a teensy bit possessive) 

Hey, if he was that desperate to please my character...that's on him.  I'm glad he did it.  I think the country is doing pretty well...and since there's an expansion coming out...we know that no matter who ended up king/queen the darkspawn battle isn't over.  So forcing Anoura into a marriage with Alistair and vice versa is even more rediculous...especially if you've established through the rest of the game that he and your character are in love.

People do stupid things in the name of love sometimes.  I think something great about the game is that everything can end up okay even if you make some bad/selfish/amoral decisions.

Someone pointed out that Morrigan promised to raise the child with respect for its parents...and she promised Alistair she wouldn't ever use it against him or the crown.  Again, she could be lying, but that's the risk I chose to take...and I think everyone ended up happier for it.  

[eschilde]

Sialater wrote...
Well, I was really tempted to track her down and run her through.....  But she was my friend and she did help slay the archdemon.....

If you tried that, the baby would still grow anyway and eat its way out of her dead body. True story. Stairs ftw. 

[Recidiva]

eschilde wrote...

@Recidiva Well, pragmatic doesn't necessarily mean right in the moral sense, either. Taking it from an RP standpoint (so without using epilogue to support one way or another), yes, you preserve your life and the life of Alistair and/or Loghain. Yes, that is selfish. Yes, you are taking a huge risk, but given the limited information you have there is nothing to indicate that the soul of an old god inside a human body will result in another blight or that it wouldn't be something you could handle in the future (that works in reverse, too, but I'm trying to justify doing the ritual right now .

Fereldan IS too damned stupid to manage things without you, otherwise you wouldn't have to do all the **** they had you running around the whole game for. You think Anora would come to you asking for help if she didn't think she had to? She couldn't move against Loghain without help from you and Eamon. Zathrian asking you to go kill Witherfang, Orzammar asking you to go find its lost relic and put a king on its throne for them, clearing out the Circle Tower. A lot of people seriously dropped the ball, here. That isn't to say no one would rise to equivalent challenges in the future, but you know your PC can take care of any major problems, so why be in such a big hurry to throw your life away?

IMO there's not really any pragmatic justification for not letting Loghain take the killing blow, but assuming you killed him in the Landsmeet and it's down to you or Alistair, and you want Fereldan to have no reason not to remain loyal to the throne so you put him there (with Anora, but on his own is fine too I guess), and you want your PC in a position to take care of any eventual problems, sure, you can easily call this decision pragmatic.

More pragmatic than not giving Morrigan the opportunity to loose a completely unknown force in the world? That's debatable.

The best solution to this is to push Morrigan down the stairs right after you kill the archdemon. Just sayin'. (But that's not the most morally 'right' solution either

Okay, I am not disagreeing with anything you're saying.

I get the RP reasons and the selfish reasons and even the "screw it, Ferelden deserves this" reasons.

I do think Morrigan should be killable.  I'm pretty freaked out that I kicked her out of camp in one game and she makes her way to my room in Redcliffe somehow.

Why the hell can't she just go make friends with the Archdemon herself and come to some sort of agreement and leave me out of it.  Obviously regular rules don't apply to her. 

If she's as damned powerful as she obviously is, stop bugging me with her laundry list of crap she wants me to do.  Go away.  Go be powerful on your own terms and quit following me around just so I can do her work for her. 

Thank you for being so clever in the Fade, Morrigan, as to see that your mother was not your mother.  Why aren't you busting me out again?  And thanks for not telling me your mom was a dragon.  You're a pal.  And sure, I'm sure you'd be a great mom.  *looks for stairs*

[Sialater]

eschilde wrote...

Sialater wrote...
Well, I was really tempted to track her down and run her through.....  But she was my friend and she did help slay the archdemon.....

If you tried that, the baby would still grow anyway and eat its way out of her dead body. True story. Stairs ftw. 

Nah, not really going to do that...   She's kept her word.  So far.  So I must keep mine.

[Jules8445]

Recidiva wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@Recidiva Well, pragmatic doesn't necessarily mean right in the moral sense, either. Taking it from an RP standpoint (so without using epilogue to support one way or another), yes, you preserve your life and the life of Alistair and/or Loghain. Yes, that is selfish. Yes, you are taking a huge risk, but given the limited information you have there is nothing to indicate that the soul of an old god inside a human body will result in another blight or that it wouldn't be something you could handle in the future (that works in reverse, too, but I'm trying to justify doing the ritual right now .

Fereldan IS too damned stupid to manage things without you, otherwise you wouldn't have to do all the **** they had you running around the whole game for. You think Anora would come to you asking for help if she didn't think she had to? She couldn't move against Loghain without help from you and Eamon. Zathrian asking you to go kill Witherfang, Orzammar asking you to go find its lost relic and put a king on its throne for them, clearing out the Circle Tower. A lot of people seriously dropped the ball, here. That isn't to say no one would rise to equivalent challenges in the future, but you know your PC can take care of any major problems, so why be in such a big hurry to throw your life away?

IMO there's not really any pragmatic justification for not letting Loghain take the killing blow, but assuming you killed him in the Landsmeet and it's down to you or Alistair, and you want Fereldan to have no reason not to remain loyal to the throne so you put him there (with Anora, but on his own is fine too I guess), and you want your PC in a position to take care of any eventual problems, sure, you can easily call this decision pragmatic.

More pragmatic than not giving Morrigan the opportunity to loose a completely unknown force in the world? That's debatable.

The best solution to this is to push Morrigan down the stairs right after you kill the archdemon. Just sayin'. (But that's not the most morally 'right' solution either

Okay, I am not disagreeing with anything you're saying.

I get the RP reasons and the selfish reasons and even the "screw it, Ferelden deserves this" reasons.

I do think Morrigan should be killable.  I'm pretty freaked out that I kicked her out of camp in one game and she makes her way to my room in Redcliffe somehow.

Why the hell can't she just go make friends with the Archdemon herself and come to some sort of agreement and leave me out of it.  Obviously regular rules don't apply to her. 

If she's as damned powerful as she obviously is, stop bugging me with her laundry list of crap she wants me to do.  Go away.  Go be powerful on your own terms and quit following me around just so I can do her work for her. 

Thank you for being so clever in the Fade, Morrigan, as to see that your mother was not your mother.  Why aren't you busting me out again?  And thanks for not telling me your mom was a dragon.  You're a pal.  And sure, I'm sure you'd be a great mom.  *looks for stairs*

Lol!  So no matter how we get to it, we all agree.  Stairs ftw!  Toss that bi-atch and see if she can fly! 

And holy hell I missed something....her mother is a dragon?  I'm only on my second playthrough.  Where did I miss all of this?  Granted I was probably too googly eyed over trying to keep Alistair's approval at 100 to go through all of Morrigan's conversation options....or did I miss a mini-quest somewhere?  O_O Again...I point out, I'm a relative newb.  

[IronWolf1987]

Recidiva wrote...

IronWolf1987 wrote...

Because as far as I'm concered there is no stopping of Morrigan from getting her baby. It's ridiculous to think that all of her goals rested on being able to sleep with just two men. Especially since she annoyed and irritated at least one of them, and quite possibly both. Flemeth sent her with the warden to get the baby period, and I sincerely doubt that me telling her to go away is going to stop her. Why wouldn't she have a plan B if this was in fact her life's work? Now if the warden had the option of not only telling her no and then chopping her to tiny bits to prevent her or flemeth from ever doing their evil again, then that would be different. My warden has no problem sacrificing him self, but there is no way in hell he's gona sacrifice himself and still let the bad guys win.

I can't stop all manner of evil from happening.  But you're choosing to facilitate it.  Sounds like a drug dealer saying "Hey, they'd get it somewhere else" and absolving themselves of all responsibility of being the one that makes it possible in the first place.

If it were possible to kill Morrigan in the game upon finding out about her deal, I'd do it without hesitation.  More than a little angry that I can kill Flemeth but I let Morrigan get away, knowing what she's going to do?  What the hell kind of sense does that make?

Except my Character doesn't plan to say "Darn that Morrigan she got away again!" He understand the implications of the choice he made and either he or Alistair are going to do everything they can to stop Morrigan and rescue that child. I look at this way Morrigan wants her baby, if she doesn't need a grey warden just wants one she sleeps with some poor schlub in redcliffe and the ritual goes on without anyone but her knowing, and no one benefits. If she does need a grey warden then all she does is use her witch powers to keep on living tell the next blight and this time just seduces some green warden who doesn't know what she is up to.

Either way, because the game does not let you stop Morrigan once and for all right there Morrigan will get her baby, it's inevitable. So if it's going to happen why not adapt my plans so that the good guys at least get some benefit and not only that perhaps even a chance to track her down, stop her and even maybe rescue the poor child?

[Recidiva]

Sialater wrote...

Well, he IS a pixilated person, but no, there were no persuasion checks or intimidate checks in the dialogue choices I took. I even told him to talk to Morrigan. He, ultimately, said yes. I did all this because if you're in love with someone, you don't make blind decisions for them. Including pixilated people who have set themselves up to rule a fictional country.

Yeah, he'll also kill Wynne if you tell him to.  He's a rock.  No persuasion checks there either. 

I'm not his lawyer and Morrigan is not the opposing attorney asking me to take a deal to my client.  I'm the leader of the Grey Wardens and he's got a really wobbly track record and he is counting on me to lead.  So I will.

[Jules8445]

Recidiva wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Well, he IS a pixilated person, but no, there were no persuasion checks or intimidate checks in the dialogue choices I took. I even told him to talk to Morrigan. He, ultimately, said yes. I did all this because if you're in love with someone, you don't make blind decisions for them. Including pixilated people who have set themselves up to rule a fictional country.

Yeah, he'll also kill Wynne if you tell him to.  He's a rock.  No persuasion checks there either. 

I'm not his lawyer and Morrigan is not the opposing attorney asking me to take a deal to my client.  I'm the leader of the Grey Wardens and he's got a really wobbly track record and he is counting on me to lead.  So I will.

Well.....if we're going to call the child evil because it's imbued with a spirit....then isn't Wynne the same way?  If the child doesn't deserve a chance to exist...why does Wynne deserve to continue to exist?  If you didn't have him kill Wynne...Alistair is just following your past leadership example.  

Might be a little thin...but it is one way to look at it. 

[Recidiva]

Jules8445 wrote...

And holy hell I missed something....her mother is a dragon?  I'm only on my second playthrough.  Where did I miss all of this?  Granted I was probably too googly eyed over trying to keep Alistair's approval at 100 to go through all of Morrigan's conversation options....or did I miss a mini-quest somewhere?  O_O Again...I point out, I'm a relative newb.  

Right.  I can't see how Morrigan is given any pass at "keeping her word" as she never gives her word on anything.  She claims to be selfish and after power and she delivers.

Flemeth is a dragon and if you've given Morrigan Flemeth's Grimoire from Irving's office, she'll entreat you to go kill her mother.  Who is a dragon.  Surprise! 

Morrigan never gives any promises.  She withholds all information until she can use it as leverage (or to get you killed) and I don't get how anybody thinks she's got anything but her own power as her final endgame.

Yes, she can genuinely care about the PC, I believe that.  But her personal ambition trumps all of that every time.  And not in a pretty way.

Hint...there's no game scenario in which she stays.  And she doesn't give a damn about the blight, if you don't take her deal on her terms, she's gone.

[JTBehnke]

Except Wynne hasn't shown any sort of tendencies towards evil.



The Archdemon is evil (though frankly it's more like a force of nature) and we have no idea what the Old Gods were like prior to their corruption. The only inklings we do get are what the Chantry says, which may or may not be propaganda, and the people who used to worship them, the Tevinter Imperium...and I think it's safe to say that even if the Tevinters didn't create the darkspawn, even if blood magic isn't truly evil, the Tevinter are still pretty nasty.